I found this web page about certain sedatives that can impair or stop the gag reflex from working.

Paramedics often have to insert a breathing tube into the trachea (endotracheal intubation, ETI) of critically ill or injured patients to enable them to breathe. However, compared with patients in cardiac arrest, ETI of patients who are not in cardiac arrest can be more difficult because of protective airway reflexes like the gag reflex or clenched jaw, which resist tube insertion. Use of medications such as sedatives and/or neuromuscular blocking agents to depress or ablate protective airway reflexes can aid ETI, according to a preliminary study.

<!-- m -->http://web.archive.org/web/20080302125055/http://www.ahrq.gov/RESEARCH/feb07/0207RA26.htm<!-- m -->







Thats as far as i can get with this now, so i will stop cutting and pasting and posting links. I know it can be irritating to read like this.

Hi Wiz that would explain the blood, but it would leave alot of unanswered questions.

Hi guys, not sure, think that it was blood spray, so would be heroics or a blow...does this make sense?

Hi Khama,

You da bomb ...such thorough research...

The brain controls all activity...voluntary and involuntary...

I choose to pick up a glass with my arm (voluntary)

I breathe (involuntary)

These functions are controlled by parts of the brain...so certain brain injuries (and neurological diseases) can interfere with the signals that control these functions....

So, if the part of the brain that controls breathing is damaged/injured the victim could stop breathing...

I think we can theorize in certain directions...just which one? and certain specifics? will elude us until the PJ present their case....

Thanks for so much information...

Keep up the good work...

Will be interesting to see what the PJ have...

Hi Potsy, hmmmm i think i understand. If it was a blow i would be thinking something along the lines of a bust nose, if it was heroics i would be thinking a nicked vein etc during a cricothyroidotomy.

Blood spray on the walls, coughing or sneezing during a nosebleed, coughing/spluttering during a cricothyroidotomy, i can't really think of anything else.

Out of the two i'd go for a nicked vein or coughing/spluttering, simply because of the blood on the windowsill.

Thank you Potsy for all your help.

If you tell me the direction your going in, i'll tell you the direction i'm going in lol.

Khama,

I think we can narrow it down to a choice of a few things...sure the PJ have narrowed it down further...

The brain is a fascinating study....much still not totally understood...

Thanks for all the intelligent conversation...sure beats when on the MF, we would post something intelligent and get the "primates" response...like....who do you think you are? You are a horrible person to speak that way...etc etc...

Really enjoyed your thoughtful posts...

Moi

all these brains working together, will beat McCann, it's a bit like the BORG.

Will we all be assimilated

Yessssssssssssssss..............

Khama said ...."I found this web page about certain sedatives that can impair or stop the gag reflex from working.

Paramedics often have to insert a breathing tube into the trachea (endotracheal intubation, ETI) of critically ill or injured patients to enable them to breathe. However, compared with patients in cardiac arrest, ETI of patients who are not in cardiac arrest can be more difficult because of protective airway reflexes like the gag reflex or clenched jaw, which resist tube insertion. Use of medications such as sedatives and/or neuromuscular blocking agents to depress or ablate protective airway reflexes can aid ETI, according to a preliminary study".

************************************

Could be .....near drowning in bath - cardiac arrest - trachea - infection - neurological damage.........?

Justice for Madeline?

I too have difficulty thinking that someone would trigger all this circus for an accident, even one with the involvement of the parents. But as other people have pointed out, being doctors, and one, apparently A&E doctor, THEY were the help and could perfectly assess if there was no need for an ambulance. Most of us would try to do something to save the child, other considerations would come later. If they KNEW that the child was past help, that could trigger a defense mode much sooner (defense of the other children, so they wouldn't be taken away, defense of career, status, the life they conquered through hard work and determination).

This is all based on a blood spray that may or may not have been present in apartment 5a.
Can anyone provide a link to a relable source for information about the blood spray?

I'll have a look, i also have an old post in response to the "blood" news..

want to read it??

Yes

Video where Sandra Felgueiras asks the McCanns about the blood found in the apartment and their reactions.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080302130601/http://www.mccannfiles.com/id71.html

_______________________

Show us the evidence is basicly the cry from the McCanns.

It reminds me of shouts of source, link, proof, etc from the paid posters.

Surely you do not have to be paid, or a "pro", to be interested in sources, corroboration, proof and evidence. Or am I wrong?

_______________________

You are what you are, you know what your doing and your motivation for doing it, I don't know if your paid or not, It's just the tactics I somtimes observe, lead me to suspect that paid posters are here, and certain prolific posters alighn themselves to the opinions of said posters. If you follow my train of thought.

Hi Potsy, i'm intrigued can we narrow it down even further??

Thank you for your medical knowledge, i know who to run things by before i post now.

You're so kind, thank you for all your help Potsy.

Surely you do not have to be paid, or a "pro", to be interested in sources, corroboration, proof and evidence. Or am I wrong?
[/quote]
_______________________

You are what you are, you know what your doing and your motivation for doing it, I don't know if your paid or not, It's just the tactics I somtimes observe, lead me to suspect that paid posters are here, and certain prolific posters alighn themselves to the opinions of said posters. If you follow my train of thought.[/quote]

So you can confirm that, if you have an enquiring mind, and a respect for the truth, and seek corroboration, you must be a "paid poster" or someone aligned with paid posters.

Does not say much for the rest of you, does it.

Hi Laffin Assasin, Gerry won't like all these brains working together to beat him will he.


As long as i can show that it is possbile for the Mccanns to be involved i'm happy.

Those are good reasons but as Sans_Souci said would the Mccanns go to the extent of a cover up just because of this???


If the children had been sedated, manslaughter. If someone performed a cricothyroidotomy manslaughter/malpractice possibly.

Hi Pear, IMO i honestly think the Mccanns were suprised at the amount of interest their situation generated. I don't think they expect this amount of attention, and as time has gone on and the public/PJs attitude started to change they have used the media to keep up the pretence of innocence.

Also as you said they have to think about the twins, their jobs and everything else.

Is that your sole criterion, Khama?

May I reverse it. If your examination of the facts of the case indicates that the McCanns are not involved, would that make you unhappy. In which case you have a rather odd idea of justice.

Hi Tylersmum, i don't know if you are refering to my theory but if you are i disagree about it only being based on the blood spray.

My theory is based on the PJs supposed leaks about the Mccanns sedating their children.

The Mccanns leaving their children alone in an unlocked apartment without fear of them waking and wandering out.

Gerry Mccann saying during the Panorama interview that he believed the twins were sedated by the abductor.

The twins not waking up when people were walking in and out of the Mccanns apartment.

Russell O'Brien saying that his daughter vomited on the night of May 3rd.

The supposed reports from the Mark Warner staff stating that no fresh or clean sheets were requested that night or the day after.

The cadaver dog scenting death in the Mccanns hire car.

The blood dog scenting blood in the Mccanns apartment.

The supposed bodily fluids found in the Mccanns hire car.

The suposed blood found on the tiles of the Mccanns apartment.

The supposed blood found on the windowsill.

The supposed blood found on the curtains.

The supposed blood found on the wall.

The supposed blood stained towel found at a barn.



All these things lead me to my theory. I don't know if you are aware but there are theories on the internet that are based on nothing, surely basing a theory on press reports is not as bad as that.

Hi Sans_Souci, of course it wouldn't make me unhappy if the Mccanns weren't involved all i want is the truth, like you do.

My post was aimed more at people who say there is no way the Mccanns could be involved in Maddies disappearance. Why not?? Just because they are doctors. All i seek to prove is there's a chance they could be involved, and if i prove that i also have to accept there is a chance they might not be involved.

_______________________

You are what you are, you know what your doing and your motivation for doing it, I don't know if your paid or not, It's just the tactics I somtimes observe, lead me to suspect that paid posters are here, and certain prolific posters alighn themselves to the opinions of said posters. If you follow my train of thought.[/quote]

So you can confirm that, if you have an enquiring mind, and a respect for the truth, and seek corroboration, you must be a "paid poster" or someone aligned with paid posters.

Does not say much for the rest of you, does it. [/quote]
__________________

Twisting my words, off topic for this thread and thread disruption, a typical tactic we've seen used many many times before.

I apolgise most humbly, LA. When I saw your original post

"Show us the evidence is basicly the cry from the McCanns.

It reminds me of shouts of source, link, proof, etc from the paid posters. "

I thought it reasonable to respond. maybe you should be more careful next time, that you words are less capable of being twisted. Shall we leave it there, with honours even?

___________________________

If I choose to paraphrase K+G's words into a simple to understand perception of mine, then you choose to do what you choose to do , so be it

I teach anatomy and health...wouldnt it be great if we had a dr or nurse on here to consult

I hope the PJ have it narrowed...

I can only think accident....ergo....a blow, a fall, sedation, choking...

Theory, body had to be disposed of because of damage and fear of an autopsy (they were drs)

Damage, from a blow, heroics (cpr, trach?)

I got most of this theory from what we have read, and a consult with my sister (nurse)...she said immediately that the body must have shown damage...

Any PJ in Britain yet?

Thanks for your thoughtful posts

Forgot one other comment from my sister, the body would show more bruising, etc. hours afterwards, usually at time of autopsy...

The PJ have not been spotted yet, but I think they are on the way.

Big up for you guys and gals.

Cooooollll....

The body could show damage either from abuse or from a bungled trach. or other invasive medical procedure that had been performed unsuccessfully when the Drs were drinking and that would not have needed to be performed had they been there watching the kids. Or could just show evidence of past abuse, or of sedation.

I think the arterial nick makes a lot of sense as a way for a fine spray to get onto the sill that might be missed in cleaning, if not visible to the eye how would you ever know to clean there, you'd have to clean the whole area for five feet in the air and I doubt even doctors would know to do that or perhaps might not have had time.

You might, upon coming in for a bed check, seeing that the child wasn't breathing for whatever reason (choked on hard candy or other food, or parents' pills, went into cardiac arrest from being sedated, fall off window sill trying to see out, cracked head on tiles, fallen on stairs trying to find mummy etc), go into ER mode, then failing to save her, you would now have to answer the question as to why the other children won't waken and why any of them were left alone like this. That might be enough in a foreign country where your new Labour connections and Important Status as Doctors would not be enough to counter their swarthy, foreign ways of thinking that one should have one's children with one at dinner or left with a caring adult.

Especially if it's on record that you've been neglectful and cautioned by staff...

The way the OBrien/Tanners fled the next day (and Jane's 'sighting') makes me wonder if Maddie's sheets were in their suitcase, or if they'd been involved -as Kate's BFF Jane might lie for her or go to bat for her especially if her own child/ren were sedated as well, that night and routinely.

Roll on the rogatory letters.

Great Post!

Was just musing...but possible one of the "friends" performed the heroics...if that is indeed what happened, as the parents may have been too shaken/drunk? JMHO

Hi Potsy, i'm intrigued can we narrow it down even further??

Thank you for your medical knowledge, i know who to run things by before i post now.

You're so kind, thank you for all your help Potsy. [/quote]


I teach anatomy and health...wouldnt it be great if we had a dr or nurse on here to consult

I hope the PJ have it narrowed...

I can only think accident....ergo....a blow, a fall, sedation, choking...

Theory, body had to be disposed of because of damage and fear of an autopsy (they were drs)

Damage, from a blow, heroics (cpr, trach?)

I got most of this theory from what we have read, and a consult with my sister (nurse)...she said immediately that the body must have shown damage...

Any PJ in Britain yet?

Thanks for your thoughtful posts [/quote]







Hi Potsy, you teaching anatomy and health is so useful to us all. It's handy having a person online who has medical knowledge.

I agree, Maddies body would have given the game away, if found in the early days a tracheotomy would be clear for all to see, or a broken nose etc. If found months later toxicology tests would be performed and may confirm if Maddie had been sedated. Also it is harder to build a murder case without a body, it's not impossible but the police do lose alot of valuable information if a body is not recovered.

When the PJ do arrive it'll be like the four horsemen of the Mccpocalypse.

Do you mean if there had been trauma or if there hadn't been, or both??

"Spotted" lol, some poor geezer waiting at the airport with a pair of binoculars, bless.

I cant bear to talk about anything to do with blood. That poor little girl.......when wll she gets her justice?

Thank you for your post Widowan2, it was really interesting.

I never considered the blood on the windowsill to be from an arterial nick, you're right though it could very well be that. I thought it could have come from a b****y object being placed on the widowsill, like a knife or a pen from the tracheotomy. This has given me something to think about. It is a pity we don't know if it was blood spatter or blood that had dripped that was found on the windowsill.


Interesting, Tanner and O'Brien may have smuggled incriminating things back to the UK like the bed sheets. Maybe even clothes they wore on the night, no would think to stop and check them.

Sorry Bohhee, i understand this is not a very nice topic to discuss. Hopefully we won't have to discuss it much longer, the PJ should be here soon.

I'm seriously considering cultivating a fake 'anti' persona so I can ask the sensible questions without being abused (I never understood why people would pretend to be anyone else online before but I'm beginning to get it).

I'd say that most posters are interested in sources, proof and evidence.

You'd certainly think (hope) so.