mercedes2 Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:05 pm Post Title: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:53 pm

The ones from May 3rd. MM 9-10 signed by GM 12-45 KM 14-50 KM 17-30 KM Contact mobile numbers recorded. All other children listed. JT's daughter in same creche.....she left at 4-30. edited to add that the time of 12.45 could quite likely be 12.25(hand written photo copy)

pinkypoo Suspect     Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:40 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:59 pm

Thanks mercedes.

Snivelling Mole Mafia Boss     Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:10 pm Posts: 3489 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:05 pm

so it dont state that MM was actually there? if there were a few kids there then could he have just nipped in and signed without anyone knowing?

cushty Lifer     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:40 pm Posts: 7141 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:07 pm

4 times? I doubt it

scrafen On Parole     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:43 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:08 pm

and the twins were dropped/picked up together with madeleine, by same person ? would also be interesting to know, if on this particular day anything was different in their "routine", as far as there was one... (e.g. especially late taken from creche etc...)

anne14 Local Lag     Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:47 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:11 pm

Thanks mercedes - same times in/out that those we have got from KBaker's interview if i recall correctly.

somthinfishie PR Spokesman     Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:04 pm Posts: 9131 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 pm

It seems GM signed in the morning KM after lunch,then out?at 14.50 and out again at 17.30.Surely there would need another sign in between the 14.50 and 17.30 sigs. @Anne Ah right,out at 12 .45 and back in for 14.50.Confused myself there. <!-- {[./images/smilies/9.gif]} --> Thankyou mercedes. <!-- {[./images/smilies/53.gif]} -->Are you having translate these discs or do they come in English?

anne14 Local Lag     Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:47 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:15 pm

12h45 is when KM took M out for lunch. 14-50 is in

scrafen On Parole     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:43 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:16 pm

MM madeleine dropped at creche by gerry : 9-10 signed by GM madeleine picked up by kate: 12-45 KM madeleine dropped by kate : 14-50 KM madeleine picked up by kate : 17-30 KM

bazzabaz You're Nicked     Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:50 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:18 pm

last photo 14:39

kpnuts First Time Offender     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:41 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:25 pm

What's your source please, Mercedes?

Laffin Assasin Fund Manager     Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:18 am Posts: 14749 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:27 pm

kpnuts wrote: What's your source please, Mercedes? ________________ The PJ files DVD.

kpnuts First Time Offender     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:41 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:29 pm

Ah OK, thanks. Just for the sake of clarity, anyone else working with you on that, LA, or just mercedes2?

foxylady Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:22 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:35 pm

Ta Laffin Something fishy there. Do you have the signings in to the creche from other days so we can compare them with May 3rd by which time I believe Maddie was dead.

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:36 pm

good stuff

mercedes2 Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:05 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:40 pm

kpnuts wrote: Ah OK, thanks. Just for the sake of clarity, anyone else working with you on that, LA, or just mercedes2? I will not post anything that I do not understand..........we don't want misinformation do we.

kpnuts First Time Offender     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:41 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:43 pm

Just confused as to what's going on. Have you got yourself a copy of the DVD too, mercedes2? Or are you translating for LaffinA? Please excuse me if this has been explained elsewhere. The forum is rather busy, so I've missed it if so.

foxylady Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:22 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:44 pm

Mercedes You have my trust

mercedes2 Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:05 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:45 pm

I have 1 KP

mercedes2 Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:05 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:47 pm

cheers foxy <!-- {[./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif]} -->

kaldey Local Lag     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:18 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:02 pm

This is hardly a surprise is it? We'd have known about it by now (and how!) if the signing in/signing out hadn't been done. Thanks LA & Mercedes2

somthinfishie PR Spokesman     Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:04 pm Posts: 9131 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:04 pm

Just to clarify(sorry)page 1 post7 I confused myself.as Anne pointed out 12.45 was the lunch break and 14.50 was when KM dropped MM back. Mercedes I see no reason why you would make these things up.Again thankyou for your hard work,youself and Laffin are doing a great job. <!-- {[./images/smilies/53.gif]} -->

kaldey Local Lag     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:18 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:09 pm

LA/Mercedes2 - can you tell us if there are photos of the signing in/signing out sheets? I take it the parents write in the times they're signing in/signing out? Not that I'm suspicious or anything!

mercedes2 Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:05 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:09 pm

All the creche records are in the files............from what I remember MM was there everyday

mercedes2 Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:05 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:11 pm

Yes the photo copies are all in the files......times, signatures, contact telephone nos....childrens names.

scrafen On Parole     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:43 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:14 pm

can anyone pls send me a dvd ?

sherlock On Parole     Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:16 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:15 pm

Once again the selfish disregard for others is exhibited by Kate-the creche was scheduled to close at 12.30 each day so the workers could have their lunch break-Kate turns up 15 minutes late no doubt Madeleine was last to be collected wandering where her paremts were -AGAIN

foxylady Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:22 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:20 pm

Do we have their actual signatures? This appears to be overcooked IMO Fascinating stuff Mercedes and Laffin <!-- {[./images/smilies/77.gif]} --><!-- {[./images/smilies/77.gif]} --><!-- {[./images/smilies/77.gif]} -->

mercedes2 Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:05 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:20 pm

I'll recheck that time sherlock.....maybe tomorrow.......

justmovedhere On Parole     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:36 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:28 pm

mercedes2 wrote: All the creche records are in the files............from what I remember MM was there everyday From what day on?

vancouver1 Mafia Boss     Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:45 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:51 pm

I would be interested to know if the records were written in pencil or pen. Just for the sake of completeness. Pencil entries can be erased and new entries made retroactively. Sometimes a day later.

harmony Lifer     Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 12:05 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:07 pm

sherlock: If she was picked up late at lunchtime that is interesting, I am still trying to figure out when Miss P was reading to "just Maddy" (Panorama) because Miss P works at the younger age group club, they are on two different complexes, maybe it was those 15 minutes?

ShuBob Fund Manager     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:42 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:10 pm

harmony= Quote: sherlock: If she was picked up late at lunchtime that is interesting, I am still trying to figure out when Miss P was reading to "just Maddy" (Panorama) because Miss P works at the younger age group club, they are on two different complexes, maybe it was those 15 minutes? What about the twins?

DCB Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:46 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:16 pm

vancouver1 - yeah - and whose pen or pencil was it eh?

foxylady Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:22 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:19 pm

Yeah seems like it was done retrospectively??

ShuBob Fund Manager     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:42 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:19 pm

Feel free to reveal your thoughts on the subject matter, DCB!

DCB Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:46 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:31 pm

Shubob - surely there is a time to just reflect and and think. The PJ have had these documents and statements for a lot longer than we have (and I thank the contributors for posting them). They must have pawed over them for months and months looking for the slightest clue to solve this case. My cynicism may come across as heavy right now, but my belief is that if the forum looking at abbreviated, translated statements is going to question every single fact quoted, then quite simply there is no point. At some stage, things that are now quoted as fact just have to be believed because there is nothing further to look at. Looking back to old newspaper reports and saying "ah but a source close to said at the time" is what - just continuing forum myths or poster's favourite theories.

mercedes2 Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:05 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:31 pm

Does everyone really think that Amaral and his team were that stupid , and the whole investigation was based on false information?? I think they may have known a little more than we do.

cushty Lifer     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:40 pm Posts: 7141 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:34 pm

we have been led astray, folks by an overkeen press and the odd fake poster but at least we are now in a position to elimate most of the discredited theories and concentrate on what is left and I have yet to read anything pointing to the phantom abductor

DCB Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:46 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:36 pm

mercedes2 - I for one thank you and laffin for taking the time and effort to post these extracts. To be perfectly blunt - you will not get any thanks from people if what you are posting destroys their theories - you will only get questions that of course, as you rightly point out, the PJ have already looked into.

ShuBob Fund Manager     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:42 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:39 pm

DCB, if we don't do what we do the forum will die! I personally don't bother entering certain threads how much more, post on them. I suggest some do the same!

DCB Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:46 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:41 pm

Ok Shubob, I will stay away from the Amaral threads.

kpnuts First Time Offender     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:41 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:02 am

mercedes2 wrote: Does everyone really think that Amaral and his team were that stupid , and the whole investigation was based on false information?? I think they may have known a little more than we do. Nobody is suggesting Amaral and his team were/are stupid. If, for example, the records were written in pencil, nobody is suggesting Amaral and his team didn't notice that. Of course they would have! Nor is anyone suggesting the whole investigation was based on false information. I believe vancouver1 -- always an earnest, intelligent and reasonable poster -- is merely interested in evaluating the relative strength of this particular item of information. In the context of such mystery and downright lies about May 3rd timelines throughout the last 16 months, I too am interested in the answer to vancouver1's question, if you'd be so kind, mercedes2.

ShuBob Fund Manager     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:42 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:04 am

"DCB"= Quote: Ok Shubob, I will stay away from the Amaral threads. Do as you please, DCB! That's what I do on here <!-- {[./images/smilies/4.gif]} -->

mercedes2 Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:05 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:19 am

I was making a general comment, it certainly wasn't aimed at vancouver or anyone else.

JillyComeLately PR Spokesman     Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:39 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:58 am

. Thanks for posting, mercedes. I have faith in Gonçalo Amaral but sadly, he was only leading the investigation for the first four months. On the other hand I have very little faith in untrained holiday creche staff. They are almost invariably NOT trained nannies. In my experience they're mostly there for the sun, sea, sand, sangria etc. and they're used as cheap labour by the majority of holiday companies. There have been some appalling incidents in the past concerning lapses in child welfare and security in some of these holiday creches. Mark Warner had their troubleshooters and PR people fly into the Ocean Club almost before you could say abduction and the creche staff were shipped out very quickly. I don't share yours and others absolute faith in these creche records. They may be correct but on the other hand, they could have been manipulated at the time by 2 well-known manipulators or compiled in retrospect to cover ar$es.

harmony Lifer     Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 12:05 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:02 am

Shubob - There were about 3 kids clubs for different age groups. Miss Pennington was not working at Maddy's club. Am not sure whether or not she was working at the club where twins were. Quote: On May the third, it was just Madeleine I was reading a story to. I later saw them around lunchtime. That's the last time I saw them together as a family. Miss Pennington said that in the Dispatches video. The mystery is how was she reading to Maddy (different age-group kids club)? And also why just Maddy? Maybe she had a story instead of one of the activities maybe the swimming but thats just a guess? http://www.mccannfiles.com/id49.html

blossom Mafia Boss     Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:27 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:04 am

I just read your OP Mercedes2 - THANK YOU ! <!-- {[./images/smilies/53.gif]} --> blossom.

vancouver1 Mafia Boss     Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:45 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:05 am

I'm only curious about a possible pencil entry because it was discussed very early on the MF, when it was discovered that there WERE creche entries, but nobody had seen them or any of the details - only that entries had been made. Some of the earliest questions asked concerned the possibility that the entries could have been done in pencil, and altered by the McCanns - or others - after the fact. If the entries were made in pen then that would be another stone in the coffin for the May 2nd theory. If the entries were made in pencil then it would open up certain possibilities. It would just be interesting to know. I agree, if the entries were made in pencil, the PJ would have seen this and made note. I also have such a suspicious mind that I wouldn't consider it far fetched for someone acting on higher orders have rewritten a page in the creche records completely (if it was in pen), thus negating any evidence of change. Was the creche record a bound book, or loose pages? mercedes2 - no offence read or taken.

Tripz Fund Manager     Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:47 pm Posts: 19011 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:09 am

May I chuck into the ring..The idea that maybe the creche records were prebooked prior to arrival..as in the package deal...any takers <!-- {[./images/smilies/7.gif]} -->

jinvta First Time Offender     Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:54 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:55 am

Sherlock wrote: "Once again the selfish disregard for others is exhibited by Kate-the creche was scheduled to close at 12.30 each day so the workers could have their lunch break-Kate turns up 15 minutes late no doubt Madeleine was last to be collected wandering where her paremts were -AGAIN" I also remember reading that the creche opened at 9:30, so how could Gerry have dropped Madeleine off at 9:10? IIRC, the creche hours were 9:30 - 12:30 and 2:30 - 5:30. There is something very suspicious about these entries, Madeline being dropped off early and picked up late.

Slim Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:55 am Posts: 1798 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:09 am

Tripz wrote: May I chuck into the ring..The idea that maybe the creche records were prebooked prior to arrival..as in the package deal...any takers <!-- {[./images/smilies/7.gif]} --> good thinking batman. tappas had to be prebooked didnt it? also how hard would it be to sign someone in and them not be there? mw staff would not admit to not noticing a child that was booked in surely? wouldnt be good pr for the resort or the staff. i rember my son walking out of school once he felt ill. i phoned the school and they tried to convince me he was in class working hard and enjoying himself.

Jardine New In Town     Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:59 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:12 am

Excellent work M2, although there are those who will question your every post, that does not conclusively point to the guilt of there chosen targets.

quark1 Lifer     Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:54 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:18 am

Tripz wrote: May I chuck into the ring..The idea that maybe the creche records were prebooked prior to arrival..as in the package deal...any takers <!-- {[./images/smilies/7.gif]} --> No Tripz....because most people do not take their children there for every session! They 'decide' on a daily basis what they are going to do each day. They may take the kids for a day out or just to the beach for the day. It is highly unusual for parents to leave their kids at every session on every day of their holiday!

Slim Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:55 am Posts: 1798 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:53 am

It is highly unusual for parents to leave their kids at every session on every day of their holiday![/quote] someone should of told the mcaans that. but then again it was there holiday as well....

vancouver1 Mafia Boss     Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:45 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:56 am

How easy is it to add a child's name to the check-in and check-out record after the fact. No erasing necessary. Just an addition under the last entry for each time period. I'd like to see photos of the actual pages.

vancouver1 Mafia Boss     Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:45 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:59 am

The ones from May 3rd. MM 9-10 signed by GM 12-45 KM 14-50 KM 17-30 KM Contact mobile numbers recorded. All other children listed. JT's daughter in same creche.....she left at 4-30. How are the time periods shown on the records - are they divided up into morning and afternoon? I wonder, are GM and KM's entries the last ones in each time period?

Slim Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:55 am Posts: 1798 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:02 am

How are the time periods shown on the records - are they divided up into morning and afternoon? I wonder, are GM and KM's entries the last ones in each time period?[/quote] or next to JT entries, since they were not together that day be intresting to know, maybe JT could of signed maddy in.

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:11 am

are there no signatures from the creche staff? <!-- {[./images/smilies/65.gif]} -->

diddy Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:51 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:16 am

I think the afternoon sessions were booked before the holiday as these cost extra. But that doesn´t mean you have to use them!

csiturkey Local Lag     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:25 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:19 am

say for example, you took your daughter out at lunch and didn't take her back afterwards, but then there was an 'accident' and you needed to make it look as if there couldn't have been enough time for an accident to have happened and for you to have covered it up, what would you do? Perhaps you would go and take your other children to the creche the next day and check the records for the previous day, sign in and out for the afternoon session to make people think there was only 3 hours in your company. This would fit with one of the other creche staff who said after 3 something pm and before 6pm maddie was taken out. But it would need to be checked to see whether or not the creche staff at the time of entrance and exit also needs to sign as witness. I've used this type of creche facility before and the records are not kept on separate sheets, but in a book so it would be easy to flick back to the last days records.

Eric Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:02 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:46 am

mercedes2 wrote: The ones from May 3rd. MM 9-10 signed by GM 12-45 KM 14-50 KM 17-30 KM Contact mobile numbers recorded. All other children listed. JT's daughter in same creche.....she left at 4-30. Thank you very much for that. Could you please tell us who signed in JT daughter and how many children were in the morning and afternoon group? Thanks a lot. Eric

January Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:26 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:51 am

Children's clubs operate from 9am to 12:30pm and from 2.30pm to 5.30pm, although operating times may vary depending on the beach resort. All childcare and Indy club places should be reserved at the time of booking and are subject to availability. We strongly advise booking early to avoid disappointment Mark warner clubs.

Eric Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:02 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:58 am

mercedes2 wrote: Does everyone really think that Amaral and his team were that stupid , and the whole investigation was based on false information?? I think they may have known a little more than we do. Unfortunately it isn't neither the first nor the last time that the police is running in the wrong direction, e.g. the Natascha Kampusch case in Austria, the police was searching several years for a body because they thought she was dead. At the end she had to escape by herself without any help. At the beginning the police had checked the abductor and they believed him despite not having an alibi. Sometime the details are crucial and the police just doesn't spend enough time to check and double-check.

Keesha On Parole     Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:42 am Posts: 1421 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:00 am

Eric wrote: ....and how many children were in the morning and afternoon group? A head count for each session would be crucial

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:16 am

the creche records have been one of the most hotly discussed and awaited topics, along with the last sightings of madeliene. for the PJ to have got this wrong, never mind in the first days, but after the prolonged scrutiny of the case, would be tantamount to gross incompetence. People have been led to believe that madeleine died on the 2nd may. At some point, we have to accept the information that has been presented as a result of the investigation. Don't forget that these were real policemen doing their jobs. Is it reasonable to really believe that a bunck of folks on a forum have got the better of the actual guys who were on the spot doing their jobs?? if the detailed evidence that has been made public says that madeleine was at the creche on the 3rd may, what reasonable basis is there to conclude that this information is wrong?? We have to accept that some of the information is correct and that the PJ did their job. If the 30000 pages of evidence are wrong, it is going to be rather a long and pointless de-brief.

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:18 am

Eric wrote: mercedes2 wrote: Does everyone really think that Amaral and his team were that stupid , and the whole investigation was based on false information?? I think they may have known a little more than we do. Unfortunately it isn't neither the first nor the last time that the police is running in the wrong direction. The police don't have built-in lie detector mechanisms to figure out who is and who is not lying. It's not about being stupid - it's about not having super natural powers that can detect things that others can't (eg like dogs and their amazing sense of smell). Many a liar has been able to lead the police in the wrong direction. If for arguments sake - these nannies lied about having seen Madeleine - how could the police have proved otherwise? The case would then have been based on false information. ETA - to sentinel - in case you haven't noticed - mercedes does not mention creche staff signatures on the register. Gerry and Kate were the only ones signing in Madeleine.

January Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:26 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:21 am

3.30-4.30 court1 KIDS CLUB Court2 ...Gerry G5A/Dan-mark warner From Tennis thread

Eric Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:02 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:29 am

sentinel wrote: ... We have to accept that some of the information is correct and that the PJ did their job. If the 30000 pages of evidence are wrong, it is going to be rather a long and pointless de-brief. Common sense suggests that the crime (homicide) or accident happened before the perpetrator acted suspiciously. I see the 16 text messages on May 2nd as very suspicious and common sense doesn't become invalid by faked crèche records or thousands of pages of apparent evidence.

kaldey Local Lag     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:18 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:32 am

I agree with JillyComeLately on this subject. Sentinel - we have entertained all sorts of conspiracies and cover-ups on this forum, why should this be any different? There seems to be some confusion that we are doubting LA/mercedes2 - which we are not. Google BBC Press Office & MW (re. Whistleblower documentary childcare) and read the report. GA in his book says that the OC had no video surveillance (with the exception of reception I believe?), no private security staff? It seems we believe the PJ were blocked in their investigation in some areas. We have also questioned the nannies' testimony - so why not question everything in this case? CB told the LP when questioned in April 08 that she believed that MM may have left the creche sometime between 3.35pm and 6pm (or words to that effect).

csiturkey Local Lag     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:25 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:35 am

the tennis photo of maddie shows her wearing different clothes from that of the last photo..whats the point of lying if that picture was taken during the 3rd may session? According to BOD there were lots of mums around snapping pictures of their blonde blue eyed daughters..it woul be interesting to see those photos.

January Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:26 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:36 am

January wrote: 3.30-4.30 court1 KIDS CLUB Court2 ...Gerry G5A/Dan-mark warner From Tennis thread If the pool photo and the tennis photo were taken one hour apart it is clearly not the same child imo. No one changes that much in one hour.

January Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:26 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:38 am

According to BOD there were lots of mums around snapping pictures of their blonde blue eyed daughters..it woul be interesting to see those photos CEOP may have them, and the people who took the photos. I wonder if the PJ's ever got the photos from the tennis lessons?

vancouver1 Mafia Boss     Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:45 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:38 am

If Amaral were to state in his book that he believed Madeleine's death occurred on May 2, not May 3, he would have to cite evidence that pointed towards that theory. There doesn't appear to be any evidence that is apparent. Just a suspicion. He would have to state that he believed the testimony of the creche workers and the log-in records to be false. How could he back that up? It would open him up to lawsuits. He would in effect be calling them liars. Far simpler to state that all of the evidence pointed towards the police believing she died on May 3. What Amaral states and what he (and other members of the force) may believe to be the case, might not be the same thing.

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:39 am

well, i can't disagree that the very records of the creche could have been falsified or manipulated, of course they could. what i am trying to say is that at some point we have to give some credit to the police investigation. they got the creche records, they interviewed the nannies (why would the nannies actually lie - of course it is possible, but reall, why??) they must have interviewed many people. they had the last photo (you think that they didn't do a formal analysis of it? to confirm when and where it was taken?) the fact is, the Investigators have concluded that madeleine was at the creche on the 3rd may, up until 5:30pm that is what the investigation concluded. (i know someone is going to say it also concluded that K&G were not guilty - but it didn't conclude that: it concluded that there wasn't enough evidence to proceed with) at some point, we have to accept the findings of the professionals.

otleepseely Lifer     Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:23 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:40 am

"We have also questioned the nannies' testimony - so why not question everything in this case? CB told the LP when questioned in April 08 that she believed that MM may have left the creche sometime between 3.35pm and 6pm (or words to that effect)." So a definite witness statement that Maddie WAS there on 3rd May but that Maddie may have left the creche sometime between 3.35pm and 6pm.

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:40 am

January wrote: January wrote: 3.30-4.30 court1 KIDS CLUB Court2 ...Gerry G5A/Dan-mark warner From Tennis thread If the pool photo and the tennis photo were taken one hour apart it is clearly not the same child imo. No one changes that much in one hour. for goodness sake, tennis activities were not limited to the 3rd may.

vancouver1 Mafia Boss     Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:45 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:41 am

The PJ also apparently concluded that Gerry couldn't have been Bundleman because at the time Mr. Smith spotted him, Gerry was at the tapas bar. According to the tapas friends' testimony.

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:42 am

otleepseely wrote: "We have also questioned the nannies' testimony - so why not question everything in this case? CB told the LP when questioned in April 08 that she believed that MM may have left the creche sometime between 3.35pm and 6pm (or words to that effect)." So a definite witness statement that Maddie WAS there on 3rd May but that Maddie may have left the creche sometime between 3.35pm and 6pm. i think that was an error in copying (the 3.35pm bit)

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:44 am

this is turning into the "lets convince ourselves (which isn't actually difficult) that madeleine died on the 2nd may and the creche records were cunningly falsified" thread could somebody please change the title??

vancouver1 Mafia Boss     Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:45 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:46 am

Hi senti <!-- {[./images/smilies/1.gif]} --> I just keep thinking of ways to alter the apparent evidence. It's the writer in me. I can't help it. I have a suspicious mind. I look at what is presented, and think of ways that it might not be true.

irina Suspect     Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:08 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:48 am

Amaral treats Smith sighting seriously. And that is why he thinks that Madeleine has died on the 3d, because the child was limp, that meand rigir mortis was not set yet ( not more then 3 haurs since she died). Otherwise it will have to be after 72 hours after death, when body goes linmp again.

Eric Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:02 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:52 am

Smith doesn't identify Madeleine, he just saw a child.

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:52 am

vancouver1 wrote: Hi senti <!-- {[./images/smilies/1.gif]} --> I just keep thinking of ways to alter the apparent evidence. It's the writer in me. I can't help it. I have a suspicious mind. I look at what is presented, and think of ways that it might not be true. hi van, we all arrived with suspicious minds, but we can't keep convincing ourselves in the full face of the findings. people will think we are mad and delusional. and 30000 pages can't all be wrong, can they??

kaldey Local Lag     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:18 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:55 am

Thanks Sentinel. Based on "evidence" we have heard so far, and having read Gestalt's Disposal thread and the fact that the PJ only looked back five years re. the history of possible deaths in Apartment 5A and that KM was a GP who certified patient deaths, I'm thinking the parents are innocent of any wrong-doing in this case, apart from possible negligence in leaving three tiny children alone whilst they went out to dine. Especially in light of the fact that there were a spate of recent burglaries in the area in the weeks preceeding their holiday (see Mrs F. on McCannfiles). As far as I can see only Cuddlecat himself needs to be questioned more thoroughly.

otleepseely Lifer     Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:23 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:59 am

Kaldey "Especially in light of the fact that there were a spate of recent burglaries in the area in the weeks preceeding their holiday (see Mrs F. on McCannfiles)." Burglaries exactly. I havent seen any reports of a spate of missing children going missing though and no valuables (other than Maddie) were taken from the McCies apartment.

pakeha2007 Mafia Boss     Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:57 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:01 am

Thanks for the OP, mercedes2. It´s great that those who have share with those who have not. I was struck by Irina´s post-the rigor mortis as a factor in suppositions about the identity of the Smith family sighting. Less than three hours or more than seventy-two. Poor Madeleine. Last minute addition: kaldey, where did you find evidence that our Kate had been certifying deaths? 6 deaths, if the family is correct.

abuela Mafia Boss     Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:49 pm Posts: 3324 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:06 am

bazzabaz wrote: last photo 14:39 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And she was back in the creche by 14.50, that's 11 minutes after the last photo was taken. Does anyone know how far the pool is from the creche? Bearing in mind she would have had to have been prised out of the pool (never an easy task), dried, shoes on and walked to the creche. And thank you so much Mercedes and Laffin for transcribing these files, you must be giving up an awful lot of time and I'm very grateful.

January Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:26 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:07 am

sentinel wrote: January wrote: January wrote: 3.30-4.30 court1 KIDS CLUB Court2 ...Gerry G5A/Dan-mark warner From Tennis thread If the pool photo and the tennis photo were taken one hour apart it is clearly not the same child imo. No one changes that much in one hour. for goodness sake, tennis activities were not limited to the 3rd may. Oh sorry, the photos may have been take as much as 5 days apart, that makes all the difference, definately the same child of course

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:10 am

kaldey wrote: Thanks Sentinel. Based on "evidence" we have heard so far, and having read Gestalt's Disposal thread and the fact that the PJ only looked back five years re. the history of possible deaths in Apartment 5A and that KM was a GP who certified patient deaths, I'm thinking the parents are innocent of any wrong-doing in this case, apart from possible negligence in leaving three tiny children alone whilst they went out to dine. Especially in light of the fact that there were a spate of recent burglaries in the area in the weeks preceeding their holiday (see Mrs F. on McCannfiles). As far as I can see only Cuddlecat himself needs to be questioned more thoroughly. thanks for that kaldey, i'm assuming that i am picking up the sarcasm correctly?? you see, the thing is that the mccanns are almost certainly (IMO) implicated in the disposal of madeleine's body and subsequent cover up (and perhaps more). the problem is that the extensive investigation did not provide sufficient evidence for the prosecutor to proceed to a portugese court. it might have been (or be) different in a british court, but the CPS and police don't seem to have the appetite for it. Notwithstanding all that, there is no amount of dis-believing what is in the PJ report that will change it. In the absence of evidence, one of the hotly discussed topics of the whole case was madeleine's movements on the 3rd may. Now we have the evidence, and some are not prepared to believe it. the evidence says that madeleine was in the creche, why should we dismiss it?

kaldey Local Lag     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:18 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:11 am

pakeha2007 - I'm presuming the PJ have checked the "deaths" story out. We will have to wait and see. The parents always said that the timing on the photo was one hour out, the photo according to them was taken at 1.29pm. Edited to change this statement - it should be the other way round. Timer said 1.29pm - McCanns said it should have read 2.29pm. Apologies for mix-up.

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:11 am

abuela wrote: bazzabaz wrote: last photo 14:39 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And she was back in the creche by 14.50, that's 11 minutes after the last photo was taken. Does anyone know how far the pool is from the creche? Bearing in mind she would have had to have been prised out of the pool (never an easy task), dried, shoes on and walked to the creche. And thank you so much Mercedes and Laffin for transcribing these files, you must be giving up an awful lot of time and I'm very grateful. have you actually looked at the last photo? how long does it take to dry a child's ankles and put her shoes on? also, it is 21 minutes (or 1hr 21), according to my arithmetic.

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:25 am

sentinel - if the evidence is Kate and Gerry Mccann signing in their own daughter - without a counter-signature from creche staff - would you consider that sufficient evidence? Catriona Baker's first statement was very vague - something about Madeleine being in the creche everyday since her arrival. Is that specific enough for you? Oh yes, and then we have someone summarising someone ele's statement about madeleine's whereabouts on 3 May. Is that specific enough for you? If the PJ had irrefutable proof that Madeleine had been in the creche on the afternoon of 3 May - why were there press reports during Sep 2007 stating the PJ were questioning some missing hours before 17:30. It seems to me, that only after Sep 2007 did the PJ state that Madeleine was seen by an independent witness at around 17:30. Now if BK could pay Murat a visit there is also no reason why he shouldn't pay our impressionahble Catriona Baker a visit too. And Catriona Baker is also known to have visited the McCanns and is evidently sympathetic towards them - could you you possibly believe that she is not above being convinced to embelish her statements during April 2008. Especially if she believed the PJ were hounding the McCanns? Once someone embelishes their statements - what are the police supposed to do? <!-- {[./images/smilies/46.gif]} -->

kaldey Local Lag     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:18 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:28 am

Sentinel - you are correct re. the sarcasm. However I did feel it necessary to add some balance to the discussion. Otherwise there's no point in discussing/debating. Something happened to Madeleine but so far the evidence implicating the family has not been sufficient. Did you read the BBC report?

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:32 am

kaldey wrote: Sentinel - you are correct re. the sarcasm. However I did feel it necessary to add some balance to the discussion. Otherwise there's no point in discussing/debating. Something happened to Madeleine but so far the evidence implicating the family has not been sufficient. Did you read the BBC report? which bbc report?

mercedes2 Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:05 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:33 am

google translation mentioning the boat trip ...nanny Lyndsay Jayne Johnson 37, which has been in the past week, the Madeleine McCann, participated in a tour of 38 boat organized by the nursery business, along with most of the children 39 miniclub, accompanied by employees (educators) and the aforementioned 40 instructor for its aquatic activities, whose name was not known

abuela Mafia Boss     Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:49 pm Posts: 3324 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:36 am

abuela wrote: bazzabaz wrote: last photo 14:39 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And she was back in the creche by 14.50, that's 11 minutes after the last photo was taken. Does anyone know how far the pool is from the creche? Bearing in mind she would have had to have been prised out of the pool (never an easy task), dried, shoes on and walked to the creche. And thank you so much Mercedes and Laffin for transcribing these files, you must be giving up an awful lot of time and I'm very grateful. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ have you actually looked at the last photo? how long does it take to dry a child's ankles and put her shoes on? also, it is 21 minutes (or 1hr 21), according to my arithmetic. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senitel, apologies, I was quoting brandonflours timing for the last photo, which is obviously wrong, he quoted 14.39 for the last photo, which would of course make it 11 minutes between the last photo and arriving back at the creche, which was why I wondered how far the creche was from the pool. I now realise the last photo timing was 13.29, so plenty of time!

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:38 am

[quote="miffed"]sentinel - if the evidence is Kate and Gerry Mccann signing in their own daughter - without a counter-signature from creche staff - would you consider that sufficient evidence? Catriona Baker's first statement was very vague - something about Madeleine being in the creche everyday since her arrival. Is that specific enough for you? Oh yes, and then we have someone summarising someone ele's statement about madeleine's whereabouts on 3 May. Is that specific enough for you? If the PJ had irrefutable proof that Madeleine had been in the creche on the afternoon of 3 May - why were there press reports during Sep 2007 stating the PJ were questioning some missing hours before 17:30. It seems to me, that only after Sep 2007 did the PJ state that Madeleine was seen by an independent witness at around 17:30. Now if BK could pay Murat a visit there is also no reason why he shouldn't pay our impressionahble Catriona Baker a visit too. And Catriona Baker is also known to have visited the McCanns and is evidently sympathetic towards them - could you you possibly believe that she is not above being convinced to embelish her statements during April 2008. Especially if she believed the PJ were hounding the McCanns? Once someone embelishes their statements - what are the police supposed to do? ################################################### miffed, i don't particularly see the value in trying to correlate things with press reports- they have proven largely to be anything ranging from poor reporting to complete pink sh*te with some degrees of falseness inbetween. of course what you say is possible, and it is what we all postulated in the absence of the PJ's findings. In short, we deduced (amongs other things) from the lack of other material, and from the various titbits that were released in the press, that there were no independent sightings of madeleine on 3rd, that JT's daughter was substituted for madeleine, that the creche records (if they existed) were falsified etc etc. now we are reading for ourselves the results of the PJ investigations, the evidence, as it were. And it is still not good enough, for those who wish to believe that madeline wasn't at the creche is there to be no end to this?

mercedes2 Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:05 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:43 am

Twins creche report........sorry cannot find the am sheet, maybe not in the files? 3rd May.......PM Toddler 2's 14.45 signed KM 17.25 signed KM

pakeha2007 Mafia Boss     Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:57 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:44 am

mercedes2, thanks for your work, time and generosity. Gosh, kaldey, that was an interesting sort of reply to my question. "... pakeha2007 - I'm presuming the PJ have checked the "deaths" story out. We will have to wait and see. ..." In one post you state categorically that our Kate was a GP who certified deaths and now you say "we´ll have to wait and see" if that´s true? Why then argue that our Kate certified deaths to justify Eddie´s carefree signalling of the woman´s clothes?

charlesp Been Cautioned     Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:32 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:46 am

Sentinel, You're suggesting that there are those here bent on proving that Madeleine wasn't actually at the creche. I understand your position, but I prefer to see it as people combing through the documents trying to discover if they prove that she was there, rather than trying to prove she wasn't. The BOD article did make it rather plain that there were a lot of little girls running around, all pretty, all pink, and that it was difficult to tell them apart. At the time I wondered if we were supposed to read between the lines. All the document seem to support Madeleine's presence at the creche, but I'm pretty sure that under cross examination the mere existence of the references to her in the register would appear flaky. Just for the record, I personally don't want any particular theory or outcome to come to the fore; I just want to know that the investigation has borne positive fruit, I want reassurance that the rule of law overcomes the rules of wealthy backers and possible involvement of powerful chums, and I want to be confident that cover-ups on a 'Dr Kelly' scale are not possible any more.

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:51 am

[quote="charlesp"]Sentinel, 1)You're suggesting that there are those here bent on proving that Madeleine wasn't actually at the creche. I understand your position, but I prefer to see it as people combing through the documents trying to discover if they prove that she was there, rather than trying to prove she wasn't. 2)The BOD article did make it rather plain that there were a lot of little girls running around, all pretty, all pink, and that it was difficult to tell them apart. At the time I wondered if we were supposed to read between the lines. 3)All the document seem to support Madeleine's presence at the creche, but I'm pretty sure that under cross examination the mere existence of the references to her in the register would appear flaky. 4)Just for the record, I personally don't want any particular theory or outcome to come to the fore; I just want to know that the investigation has borne positive fruit, I want reassurance that the rule of law overcomes the rules of wealthy backers and possible involvement of powerful chums, and I want to be confident that cover-ups on a 'Dr Kelly' scale are not possible any more ################################################################## chrles answers to your points below: 1)no, what i'm pointing out is that here we have the results of the PJ investigation, and people just don't seem to want to take it at face value - as though they somehow "know" (or think they know) that the PJ didn't get to the bottom of it. 2)the BOD article was complete shiite - it should not be used as a reference to anything, IMO 3)see 1) above 4) agree

pakeha2007 Mafia Boss     Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:57 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:02 am

What a shame to utterly discount the woman O´Donnell´s little effort, sentinel. I´m sure that that telling phrase about listening to the searching helicopters while basking by the poolside must have cost her a great deal to write. Also thanks to her, we know that while our Kate moans in her "diary" that she feels alone and abandoned as she and her beloved husband wander about at 6 am, JW was informed at one-ish, that MBM was missing and that no help was needed.

newperson Fund Manager     Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:47 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:12 am

mercedes2 wrote: Twins creche report........sorry cannot find the am sheet, maybe not in the files? 3rd May.......PM Toddler 2's 14.45 signed KM 17.25 signed KM what to make of records and statements when they don't match up! or maybe it doesnt mean anything if they dont, ie the nanny may not have seen KM from the nanny statement: 3. That the children were dropped off by their parents at 9.30am and that the mother picked them up at 12.30pm. 4. That it was the father, Gerald, who dropped them off at 2.30pm and that it was the mother, Kate, who came to fetch them at 5.30pm.

DCB Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:46 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:14 am

4 eye witnesses creche records poolside pic Amaral and PJ conclusions. Just how many witnesses/records/pics will it take until people believe that Madeleine was alive during the day of 3 May?

JillyComeLately PR Spokesman     Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:39 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:17 am

. It will take the Pros not continually force-feeding me May 3rd AND NO OTHER for me to believe it wasn't May 2-3rd around midnight <!-- {[./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif]} -->

kaldey Local Lag     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:18 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:17 am

pakeha - I don't state anything categorically. I'm merely repeating stuff that we have heard in the press, on the forum etc. I think my devil's advocate position is probably getting lost in translation or being misinterpreted. It usually does. Hope this explains.

DCB Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:46 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:18 am

Jilly - the information is not coming from pro's - but from the official Police report.

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:19 am

[quote="DCB"] Just how many witnesses/records/pics will it take until people believe that Madeleine was alive during the day of 3 May?[/q ############################# nothing short of a new thread from coldwater confirming the fact, i suspect.

JillyComeLately PR Spokesman     Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:39 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:20 am

. DCB, I've already written a fairly lengthy post earlier in this thread on why I don't necessarily believe the creche records are to be believed.

scarf1 Been Cautioned     Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:06 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:22 am

sentinel wrote: ...if the detailed evidence that has been made public says that madeleine was at the creche on the 3rd may, what reasonable basis is there to conclude that this information is wrong?? According to the OP of this thread, the records show that Madeleine was signed in and out of the creche on May 3rd. They (the records) do not state that Madeleine was actually in the creche though.

DCB Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:46 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:23 am

Jilly - but you also don't believe the witnesses, picture, Amaral, and the PJ.

kaldey Local Lag     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:18 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:25 am

Sentinel - if you're still around: http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressr ... lower.shtm

pakeha2007 Mafia Boss     Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:57 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:31 am

kaldey wrote: Thanks Sentinel. Based on "evidence" we have heard so far, and having read Gestalt's Disposal thread and the fact that the PJ only looked back five years re. the history of possible deaths in Apartment 5A and that KM was a GP who certified patient deaths, I'm thinking the parents are innocent of any wrong-doing in this case, apart from possible negligence in leaving three tiny children alone whilst they went out to dine. Especially in light of the fact that there were a spate of recent burglaries in the area in the weeks preceeding their holiday (see Mrs F. on McCannfiles). As far as I can see only Cuddlecat himself needs to be questioned more thoroughly. This hardly reads to me like, to quote you, kaldey: "... I don't state anything categorically. I'm merely repeating stuff that we have heard in the press, on the forum etc. I think my devil's advocate position is probably getting lost in translation or being misinterpreted. It usually does. Hope this explains. ..." It explains a great deal, I can assure you.

kaldey Local Lag     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:18 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:34 am

Pakeha - perhaps you would like to explain exactly what you mean by that last cryptic remark?

DCB Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:46 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:39 am

Miffed: Baker Pennington The cook JERONIMO TOMAS RODRIGUES S.

william1 Local Lag     Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:09 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:42 am

It seems that those of us who are not prepared to take the creche records at face value are being somewhat 'attacked.' Why? Over the last couple of years I have attended a fair amount of nurseries/toddler sessions/ creches where, as one enters, one has to 'sign in' and 'sign out'. In my experience, the signing in an out is little more than a formality - and if i had wanted to sign in an extra child, or a false name etc I would have had no problems in doing so, undiscovered. Unless there was a fire - then the records dont seem to be used or looked at. Just because Madeleines name appears on a list provided by the MW creche - does not mean that she was actually there, and of course we shouldn't just take that as credible evidence. Those of us who tend to believe that Madeleine was no longer alive at this point will obviously question the records - but why should anyone get uptight about that. We all have our different theories and surely one of us will turn out to be pretty close to the truth.

kaldey Local Lag     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:18 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:46 am

Good grief we've questioned nearly everything else - what's so sacrosant about the creche records? Thanks William1 for a perfectly reasonable post.

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:47 am

billy, it is hardly an attack, the official police records have been released. and people don't want to believe them, as though the collective talents of the investigators fell something short of missing the blatantly obvious. this isn't postulating around dodgy press articles and hearsay. it is what is in the official files.

DCB Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:46 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:48 am

William1 - yes questioning them is fine.

mercedes2 Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:05 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:50 am

I'm off now, the never ending speculation continues.

DCB Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:46 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:52 am

Thanks for your work mercedes2

kaldey Local Lag     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:18 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:52 am

Sentinel - I thought it had been discussed on here many many times that the PJ were under pressure from above - that vested interests were at play. Or am I posting on the wrong forum? GA certainly seems to have felt that he was under pressure.

william1 Local Lag     Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:09 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:56 am

1. Police records? You could call them that I suppose - photocopy of a list supplied by MW...collected by the PJ and stored in their files for reference. So, if I'd been the owner / manager of Baptista supermarket PdL and passed the PJ a handwritten list recording names of those who had visited my shop on 3rd May - we, the forum, should not question that as being an accurate and an honest account? 2. Ok, you must be right- and I think you are being wise and sensible. Madeleine was in the creche on May 3rd, and I'm not going to waste time questioning it further, and nor should any other posters here.

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:58 am

DCB wrote: 4 eye witnesses creche records poolside pic Amaral and PJ conclusions. Just how many witnesses/records/pics will it take until people believe that Madeleine was alive during the day of 3 May? DCB - I see you responded to a post of mine which I deleted because the quoting was all mucked up. Here are the other questions: creche records - complete with parents' signatures. Case closed, heh? poolside pic - released almost a month later. Amaral and PJ conclusions - eventually, even they would have to start believing what they were told during April 2008. As for the witness names you provided: Quote: Baker Pennington The cook JERONIMO TOMAS RODRIGUES S Baker is the only one that should have given a proper account of Madeleine's whereabouts on 3 May. The others - apart from Pennington that changed her story each time she sat on the toilet - weren't close enough to Madeleine to state catergorically that it was indeed Madeleine they had seen. Could be a case of mistaken identity a few days or weeks afterwards. Baker's first statement was rather vague and suddenly in April 2008 it became rather specific. I wonder why? And to sentinel - it's also ridiculous to completely write off press reports. Some of them have proven to have been rather accurate.

Kim48 Mafia Boss     Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:56 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:59 am

MERCEDES Thanks for posting this list. What saddens me is the amount of time the children spent in a creche in a foreign land with strangers. Out for lunch and tea but dumped back in there again.Then they are unwilling to pay these strangers to look after their children at night while they are out boozing!! To see it on paper is very sad. Family holiday , well not for the little ones but holiday to play tennis , run and lay by the pool for the adults ..yes.

pakeha2007 Mafia Boss     Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:57 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:00 am

kaldey wrote: Pakeha - perhaps you would like to explain exactly what you mean by that last cryptic remark? kaldey, I think my comment was anything but cryptic. Perhaps, as you claim in your post, it´s a translation problem. Back to the creche records? We see that our Kate did three of the four runs on the 3rd of May. mercedes2, in the records covering the McCann´s both before and after the event who is it who most often signs in the McCann kiddies? I ask because of our Kate´s published complaint of having the general burden of the kiddies on her. So we are told, anyway.

diddy Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:51 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:03 am

I doubt that the creche records were written in pencil. Seriously, what a Mickey Mouse operation if they were! It´s also pretty easy for staff to recognise children quite quickly, so the fact that B O`D thought all the girls were blond and pink says rather more about her. I would have thought the three Mccann children would be easier to remember than others. Twins, so they are set apart. Madeleine the elder sister of "the twins", plus all three did full days.

Skeptical PR Spokesman     Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 5:32 pm Posts: 8571 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:05 am

kaldey : "the fact that the PJ only looked back five years re. the history of possible deaths in Apartment 5A" When was apartment 5a first built ?

cushty Lifer     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:40 pm Posts: 7141 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:05 am

we were told that Madeleine was unmistakable because of her eye yet now we have all these people who might have failed to recognise her from other young girls this forum has surely done too much good work in the past to have it undermined now by a failure to move on when the facts are finally revealed -instead of arguing over the date of death we should surely be examining what might feasibly have happened on the 3rd, and just be grateful we have narrowed the time down to a couple of hours

kizzy On Parole     Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:02 pm Posts: 1446 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:10 am

mercedes2 wrote: The ones from May 3rd. JT's daughter in same creche.....she left at 4-30. Something is not adding up here! Enfants Kidnappes gave a summary of Jane Tanners witness statement (4th May 2007). It is translated on primavera's blog. After finishing playing tennis (8) at around 2.45, the interviewee went back to her apartment (1) where she stayed with her daughter ****. Her husband and Matthew Oldfield went sailing. Source: http://frommybigdesk.blogspot.com/

csiturkey Local Lag     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:25 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:12 am

What saddens me is the amount of time the children spent in a creche in a foreign land with strangers. Out for lunch and tea but dumped back in there again - quote And that's only because they had to!

william1 Local Lag     Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:09 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:14 am

Cushty - noone is stopping you from examining what may feasibly have happened on the 3rd - and all respect to you for your opinion - but why suggest that the forum is being undermined because some of us believe there is valid reason for suspecting that Madeleine met her demise prior to the 3rd? Nothing wrong with parallel lines of enquiry. Quite healthy I wouldve thought.

kaldey Local Lag     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:18 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:15 am

I agree William1 - any speculation on this topic is absolutely ridiculous!!! I'm off to the clone thread......

william1 Local Lag     Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:09 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:17 am

Kaldey - me too - dont normally enter into bickering - waste of time, really.

cushty Lifer     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:40 pm Posts: 7141 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:18 am

I have no quarrel with what you say, william1 but what is the valid reason for thinking M's presence in the creche on 3rd May was fabricated?

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:19 am

i'm not writing off all press reports, nor am i saying that madeleine was or wasn't in the creche on the 3rd (although i tend to go for the former) what i am saying is that we have finally got our hands on the official data, and it states that madeleine was in the creche (and hence alive - unless the staff were particularly non-observant). the police have not just obtained bits of paper and copied them onto a dvd. the thing was investigated. they believe that she was there. if we are going to dismiss everything that the police have gathered together as wrong, or tampered with, we might as well not bother reading it, and go back to what we had the last 16 months, which was poor press reporting, pink spin, forum myths and gossip and bits of blogs passed around other forums.

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:20 am

cushty - in my opinion - the eye defect did not have a neon light around it. It's not that easily discernible unless you have eye-to-eye contact with such a person. Would a cook or a waiter be having eye-to-eye contact with Madeleine? There is also no reason why some can't focus on the 3rd and others on the 2nd. If some of us don't yet find sufficient reason to accept the 3rd - why is that so difficult for others to leave them be. We don't all think alike. What may be acceptable to some may not be acceptable to others.

kaldey Local Lag     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:18 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:22 am

Skeptical - I have no idea when 5A was built - do you have any idea? Perhaps someone should find out. Given that the cadaver dog can detect dead bodies buried many years ago, perhaps we should find out if it was once a burial site - seeing as we're not allowed to query the creche records.

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:23 am

cushty - if you read mercedes summary - the parents signed her in. would such records be sufficient evidence that madeleine was at the creche on 3 May? Yes we have Catriona Bakers' statement and I've already posted my opinions regarding that.

william1 Local Lag     Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:09 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:24 am

Cushty - it's more a case of having valid reasons for believing M died prior to the daytime of the 3rd May - and therefore being prepared to question records or so called 'evidence' that she was alive that day. If Gerry Mc Cann told me that Madeleine was alive at lunchtime on the 3rd - and he can show me a photo time stamped at 1:29 on the 3rd May - I may choose to question that too. That s all. Back to rain again today here....

ShuBob Fund Manager     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:42 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:24 am

Some belief that creche records should be questioned. Some don't! What's the issue? If anyone is not happy with a particular line of debate they don't have to join in!

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:26 am

Sentinel - what I want to see is on what basis did the PJ accept that Madeleine was around on the afternoon of 3 May before 17:30. The creche records, Catriona Baker's statement, the cook, the waiter, Pennington? Or were the April 2008 statements the reason as to why the PJ had no alternative but to accept this time of 17:30.

mercedes2 Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:05 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:27 am

The creche records are written in ink. sorry can't keep going back....the files are huge.

csiturkey Local Lag     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:25 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:28 am

Given that the cadaver dog can detect dead bodies buried many years ago, perhaps we should find out if it was once a burial site - seeing as we're not allowed to query the creche records -kaldey You are joking aren't you? I mean you don't seriously think that dog signalled those specific spots in ONLY THAT APARTMENT because the site was once a burial ground (perhaps american indian <!-- {[./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif]} --><!-- {[./images/smilies/4.gif]} -->)? p.s. I personally go with the belief that it was an 'accident' which occured on the 3rd, after 5.30pm (as GA also suggests)

answersplease On Parole     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:47 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:29 am

Shubob - we wouldn't have any debate then, would we? No need for 3A at all? I knew this would happen when the creche records were released. There were only a few children in the Kids Club, weren't there? So if a child was signed in but didn't actually attend, wouldn't this be rather noticeable? MW staff have been known to criticise the Ms.......

cushty Lifer     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:40 pm Posts: 7141 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:30 am

but what are the valid reasons for believing she died on the 2nd? - is it the time required for the cadavar odour to develop or just a general reluctance to believe they could have whisked her away so quickly and thoroughly after just a short time?

mercedes2 Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:05 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:32 am

6 kids in the creche morning 4 afternoon session

Skeptical PR Spokesman     Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 5:32 pm Posts: 8571 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:33 am

kaldey- "I have no idea when 5A was built - do you have any idea"? No. That is why I asked. kaldey-"Perhaps someone should find out". Indeed. It may help explain why the records may have only gone back 5 years. kaldey-"Given that the cadaver dog can detect dead bodies buried many years ago, perhaps we should find out if it was once a burial site - seeing as we're not allowed to query the creche records.[end) As Eddie, the EVRD, alerted to scent within the apartment 5a and not within the other apartments in the block, I would think that "an ancient burial site" theory wouldn't run. <!-- {[./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif]} -->

Skeptical PR Spokesman     Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 5:32 pm Posts: 8571 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:35 am

ShuBob : "Some belief that creche records should be questioned. Some don't! What's the issue? If anyone is not happy with a particular line of debate they don't have to join in!" Exactly.

csiturkey Local Lag     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:25 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:36 am

skeptical -As Eddie, the EVRD, alerted to scent within the apartment 5a and not within the other apartments in the block, I would think that "an ancient burial site" theory wouldn't run. Oh jesus, i hope not <!-- {[./images/smilies/icon_surprised.gif]} -->

Beaky You're Nicked     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:09 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:40 am

IIRC Madeleine was in the crèche in the Millenium building the twins in the crèche at Tapas. Kate signed the twins out at 17.25 and Madeleine at 17.30. I believe the older kids were taken to Tapas for tea so was the crèche record taken there as well for sign out. Just wondering why 5 mins difference if kids in same place cant imagine Kate signing out the twins first for the walk to Millenium to collect Madeleine or to sign out the book there if she already had Madeleine with her. So who then is in charge of the record. Could tea time collection be filled in by staff or do they have a floating record book that anyone could get their hands on.

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:41 am

cushty wrote: but what are the valid reasons for believing she died on the 2nd? - is it the time required for the cadavar odour to develop or just a general reluctance to believe they could have whisked her away so quickly and thoroughly after just a short time? And the obvious retort - what is the valid reason not believe in an abduction and what is the valid reason for not believing the dogs were wrong in this case. If they were going to whisk her off so quickly, cadaver odour would not have developed. In my opinion, they would've whisked her off from the spot where death occurred. Eddie was quite definite - he made a beeline for the cupboard. She was hidden in that cupboard so they could work through their plan.

Skeptical PR Spokesman     Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 5:32 pm Posts: 8571 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:41 am

csiturkey : Could be Gerald and Kate's very next excuse to try to discredit young Eddie. <!-- {[./images/smilies/4.gif]} --><!-- {[./images/smilies/4.gif]} -->

Slim Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:55 am Posts: 1798 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:44 am

"We have also questioned the nannies' testimony - so why not question everything in this case? CB told the LP when questioned in April 08 that she believed that MM may have left the creche sometime between 3.35pm and 6pm (or words to that effect)." if this is true and the nanny didnt know when maddy left, how does she know she was there? shes was a great nanny not to notice that a child had left

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:45 am

[quote="miffed"] And the obvious retort - what is the valid reason not believe in an abduction and what is the valid reason for not believing the dogs were wrong in this case. .[/ ################################################################### miffed, the PJ have not concluded there was an abduction or that the dogs were "wrong" the prosecutor decided there wasn't enough evidence to proceed with.

mr bluesky Been Cautioned     Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:18 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:47 am

for me the last sighting of the victim by independant witnesses is one of the most important links in the case - apart from forensics it is probably THE most important . It is basic police work - find out who last saw the victim - when that was and then check and cross check . So unless the PJ were even worse than the key stone cops even they would have managed to at least get this part of the investigation correct - the idea that they just casualy asked a few people - photocopied a few pages and called it a day or they were instructed from above to doctor the evidence as has been suggested seems to me luicrous . I suppose why I and a few others get frustrated is that for the past year we have been dealing mostly with wildly speculative press reports for our info we now manage to see the ( well 2nd hand ) the actual PJ report and findings but still isnt enough .

kaldey Local Lag     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:18 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:47 am

I would just query why CB was so vague when, if as you say there were very few children in the mini creche, she said something along the lines of - M left sometime between 3.35pm-6pm. Or have I misread the LP interview in April 08? Please, please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

otleepseely Lifer     Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:23 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:47 am

Miffed: Sentinel - what I want to see is on what basis did the PJ accept that Madeleine was around on the afternoon of 3 May before 17:30. The creche records, Catriona Baker's statement, the cook, the waiter, Pennington? Or were the April 2008 statements the reason as to why the PJ had no alternative but to accept this time of 17:30." Mr. A. seems to think that Maddie was alive on 3rd May, 2007. I believe Mr. A. had left his post by April 2008 so perhaps would not have had access to statements from April 2008. Presumably he formed his conclusions during the time he was heading the enquiry i.e. before April 2008?

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:48 am

[quote="mr bluesky"]for me the last sighting of the victim by independant witnesses is one of the most important links in the case - apart from forensics it is probably THE most important . It is basic police work - find out who last saw the victim - when that was and then check and cross check . So unless the PJ were even worse than the key stone cops even they would have managed to at least get this part of the investigation correct - the idea that they just casualy asked a few people - photocopied a few pages and called it a day or they were instructed from above to doctor the evidence as has been suggested seems to me luicrous . I suppose why I and a few others get frustrated is that for the past year we have been dealing mostly with wildly speculative press reports for our info we now manage to see the ( well 2nd hand ) the actual PJ report and findings but still isnt enough .[ ######################################################################## hallelujah!

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:50 am

kaldey wrote: I would just query why CB was so vague when, if as you say there were very few children in the mini creche, she said something along the lines of - M left sometime between 3.35pm-6pm. Or have I misread the LP interview in April 08? Please, please correct me if I'm wrong on that. i think that 3.35 was a mistake in the person who typed up the report and posted it to the forum. at least that is the explanation that i read.

jassi Mafia Boss     Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:17 pm Posts: 2009 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:50 am

Beaky wrote: IIRC Madeleine was in the crèche in the Millenium building the twins in the crèche at Tapas. Kate signed the twins out at 17.25 and Madeleine at 17.30. I believe the older kids were taken to Tapas for tea so was the crèche record taken there as well for sign out. Just wondering why 5 mins difference if kids in same place cant imagine Kate signing out the twins first for the walk to Millenium to collect Madeleine or to sign out the book there if she already had Madeleine with her. So who then is in charge of the record. Could tea time collection be filled in by staff or do they have a floating record book that anyone could get their hands on. I'm sure that it has been said elsewhere that all the creche children were taken to the Tapas area by the nannies for their tea. This would suggest that the children were returned to the parents at this time and that parents wouldn't go to the creche area for collection. This would suggest that either the nannies carried the creche register around with them for the parents to sign their children out, or the nannies did the teatime signing out

csiturkey Local Lag     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:25 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:51 am

skeptical, exactly! don't give them any more ideas!!! (maybe we should be searching back posts for the idoit who suggested rotting meat and dirty nappies <!-- {[./images/smilies/24.gif]} -->)

bohhee On Parole     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:34 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:52 am

mercedes2 wrote: The ones from May 3rd. MM 9-10 signed by GM 12-45 KM 14-50 KM 17-30 KM Contact mobile numbers recorded. All other children listed. JT's daughter in same creche.....she left at 4-30. Not read thru all pages yet but need to ask some questions: last photo 14.39 creche signed in 14.50 eleven mins space - how far from pool to creche? On may3rd, T7 and kids were at paradisco beach cafe for lunch or was it tea till 17.39 (or thereabout) according to CCTV (provided CCTV date is correct, far as I know date was one day out). DW deposition states they stayed till 5.30 then left for TEnnis. McCAnns family were the only people who did not join their friends & family at the this beach cafe. Why did they leave MM alone in creche when her friends were gone to eat at Beach Cafe? Also what were Gerry and Kate doing on their own? JT picked up her kid at 4.30. so arrival at Paradiso must be after that time. Any idea what time group arrived at Paradiso? Is this the only day and first time during their holiday that they didnt all do things together? Is May3d group break-away activities a break from their norm? Where were the rest of the kids? Different Creche? Where is record of other Creche? Were twins in it on May 3rd? Creche Record may have been included in file maybe just as part of exhibits collected during investigation. Whether it was a true reflection or representation of the state of things is a question mark. Have to credit PJ checked on Creche record (for obvious reason), but what they did not release was outcome of their check. In a nutshell, they did not confirm one way or another as to veracity and/or authenticity of the record. It was merely release as a record - no verdict on it.

Skeptical PR Spokesman     Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 5:32 pm Posts: 8571 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:53 am

mr bluesky : "for me the last sighting of the victim by independant witnesses" There is a little problem with who may actually be "independent". D Payne alludes to seeing MM, but he is not what I would exactly consider "independent". C Baker alludes to seeing MM, but she is not what I would exactly consider "independent". Then there is the Cook.

ShuBob Fund Manager     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:42 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:53 am

If the PJ report says Gerry could not have been the Smiths' bundleman because members of the tapas group placed him at bar at that time and Amaral says he believes Gerry was indeed the bundleman, why is it that questioning the creche records is considered pointless? Remember CB has been hosted in Rothley Manors! Even Tanner who apparently picked up her own child from the very creche Maddie was supposed to be in on May 3rd couldn't conclusively say she saw her even though we now hear that there were only 4 kids in the afternoon session!

mercedes2 Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:05 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:54 am

otleepseely wrote: Mr. A. seems to think that Maddie was alive on 3rd May, 2007. I believe Mr. A. had left his post by April 2008 so perhaps would not have had access to statements from April 2008. Presumably he formed his conclusions during the time he was heading the enquiry i.e. before April 2008? OK, but the timeline of 5-30 remains in the final report under Rebelo

william1 Local Lag     Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:09 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:54 am

Mr BlueSky - but what point does your frustration at 'us' serve? To me, it just seems to create unnecessary bickering which to a degree, disrupts an interesting thread. I am capable of understanding your point of view on this however, and feel for you, but would ask that you bear your frustrations bravely, and let 'us' question things as we see fit. I also feel frustration that some posters seem to believe unquestioningly that M died on early evening May 3rd (to make it makes no sense) but the forum needs us all to follow our own instincts and pursue and create our own theories, so I accept it.

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:55 am

we see the PJ report - and so far what has been made public regarding Madeleine's whereabouts on 3 May are the creche records (neatly signed in by the parents), Catriona Baker's statements (a la Jane Tanner - memory becomes clearer as time passes) and a few others who had little contact with Madeleine. Is that it? OK - I think the creche records are all I needed. Madeleine was indeed at the creche - Kate and Gerry said so. May 3rd it is then. Next question. <!-- {[./images/smilies/35.gif]} -->

answersplease On Parole     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:47 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:55 am

A mini-theory re how vague the T7 were about when/if they saw Madeleine last - maybe they weren't sure what they should be saying, so fudged it a bit?

otleepseely Lifer     Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:23 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:57 am

Mercedes: Thanks for all info. "OK, but the timeline of 5-30 remains in the final report under Rebelo" 5.30 on 3rd May?

Skeptical PR Spokesman     Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 5:32 pm Posts: 8571 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:57 am

csiturkey"]-"skeptical, exactly! don't give them any more ideas!!!"-(end) I didn't raise the subject. I was giving my answer to one who brought the subject up. <!-- {[./images/smilies/4.gif]} --><!-- {[./images/smilies/4.gif]} -->

kaldey Local Lag     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:18 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:58 am

Deleted - incorrect information. Apologies

otleepseely Lifer     Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:23 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:59 am

Miffed I don't think we can discard any opinions/theories but I just wonder why Mr. A. seems so sure that Maddie was still alive on 3rd May and also that she was seen on 3rd May by a number of witnesses. CB was interviewed on 4th May as well as April 2008 and in both she said that Maddie was at creche on 3rd May.

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:00 am

sentinel wrote: the prosecutor decided there wasn't enough evidence to proceed with. He also concluded the parents could not have been involved as they were not present when Madeleine disappeared.

cushty Lifer     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:40 pm Posts: 7141 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:01 am

ok then Amaral and the PJ got it wrong might as well chuck the DVDs as they can't be trusted - anything in them might have been forged

mr bluesky Been Cautioned     Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:18 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:01 am

william1 wrote: Mr BlueSky - but what point does your frustration at 'us' serve? To me, it just seems to create unnecessary bickering which to a degree, disrupts an interesting thread. I am capable of understanding your point of view on this however, and feel for you, but would ask that you bear your frustrations bravely, and let 'us' question things as we see fit. I also feel frustration that some posters seem to believe unquestioningly that M died on early evening May 3rd (to make it makes no sense) but the forum needs us all to follow our own instincts and pursue and create our own theories, so I accept it. of course you can question as much or as little as you want - in fact the whole report might or not be accurate - It seems a shame that with the hard work being done by the translators we cant get close to a concensus on even the most basic of detail so we are now at the same stage as we were 18 months ago -?? we cant as a forum even nail down any fact ?

william1 Local Lag     Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:09 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:02 am

temper temper

mercedes2 Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:05 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:02 am

The final summary of the process files................ What happened during the time lapse between 5.30 p.m. (the time at which MADELEINE was seen for the last time by a person that differs from her parents or siblings) and the time at which the disappearance is reported by KATE HEALY (at around 10 p.m.).According to the Time and Place, the facts occurred on the day 3 of May of 2007, in a temporal hiatus, understood to be between 21H05 and 22H00 (being certain that after 17H30, only Gerald and Kate had contact with Madeleine) at the resort named ‘Ocean Club’, located in Vila da Luz, Lagos

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:03 am

miffed wrote: He also concluded the parents could not have been involved as they were not present when Madeleine disappeared. sorry, i missed that one don't suppose you could point me to it?

Eric Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:02 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:03 am

mercedes2 wrote: 6 kids in the creche morning 4 afternoon session Once more thank you very much. There we have got a problem. In an informal conversation CB stated : (Enfants kidnappés) - Que dans la même pièce que Madeleine, il y avait 6 autres enfants en matinée et 4 l'après midi (y compris Madeleine). This makes 7 in the morning and 4 in the afternoon.

ShuBob Fund Manager     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:42 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:04 am

"otleepseely" Quote: Miffed I don't think we can discard any opinions/theories but I just wonder why Mr. A. seems so sure that Maddie was still alive on 3rd May and also that she was seen on 3rd May by a number of witnesses. CB was interviewed on 4th May as well as April 2008 and in both she said that Maddie was at creche on 3rd May. Don't forget the PJ files seem to indicate Gerry couldn't have been the Smiths' bundleman yet Amaral seems sure that it was Gerry!

DCB Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:46 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:04 am

Eric - damn - has another one gone missing!

william1 Local Lag     Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:09 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:05 am

I agree Mr Blue Sky but I would rather it be this way than us arrive at some concensus of opinion for the sak eof arriving at a concensus of opinion - iykwim...have you ever tried eating corn on the cob at your keyboard?

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:06 am

mercedes, are you sure that they didn't get that wrong?? i mean, its not like they were the official, professional police investigators or anything. perhaps they missed something really obvious? and don't they ever check on that belgian blog? you know the font of all knowledge on the case?

cushty Lifer     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:40 pm Posts: 7141 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:07 am

now that is interesting, Mercedes, as the time between 9 and 10 can only refer to the fact of an abduction which we know, surely, the PJ did not really accept I have wondered if the released files contain mostly abduction support stuff for public consumption, and that killing stuff is still being secreted away - is there anything in the DVD to support this theory? because it makes sense to me if there is the future possibility of charges being brought

Eric Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:02 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:07 am

DCB wrote: Eric - damn - has another one gone missing! I would say that the headcount wasn't done properly.

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:08 am

this is just getting silly, I'm out to lunch!

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:08 am

otleepseely - I have no problem with people believing May 3. Those that believe in May 2 should also be given that courtesy. We are merely looking for something with a bit more substance than has been presented so far. We want to know on what basis Amaral reached that conclusion - becasue so far it hasn't been convincing enough for me. We are sticking out our necks because we stand the chance of being ridiculed for having been wrong. We don't know what is still to emerge from the files.

ShuBob Fund Manager     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:42 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:10 am

Shut the door on your way out and stay out if possible <!-- {[./images/smilies/103.gif]} -->

william1 Local Lag     Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:09 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:10 am

No? Well i cant recommend it - they get stuck in between the keys...gross!

mr bluesky Been Cautioned     Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:18 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:10 am

Eric wrote: DCB wrote: Eric - damn - has another one gone missing! I would say that the headcount wasn't done properly. british education really has gone down the tubes - they probably dropped Maths . so now we have some airhead nannies who not only lie , but cant count past 5 !!

Eric Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:02 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:11 am

IMO Amaral made a crucial and wrong assumption early on. He believed that Smith saw GM carrying a child. This is ok, but then he concluded that this child must have been Madeleine. This conclusion isn’t imperative, it could have been one of the (sedated) twins. As the shutter story went wrong GM had to come up quickly with another prove for an abduction which was risky but could have worked when ‘bungleman’ was only seen from the distance. With this assumption Amaral didn’t feel it necessary to have a closer look to the crèche records. BTW, I am not sure if Smith saw GM as he himself isn’t 100% sure about it and his family isn’t sure about it at all.

ShuBob Fund Manager     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:42 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:12 am

Quote: I have wondered if the released files contain mostly abduction support stuff for public consumption, and that killing stuff is still being secreted away - is there anything in the DVD to support this theory? Cushty, this has been my belief for a good while!

answersplease On Parole     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:47 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:13 am

But don't the files contain the dog videos?

ShuBob Fund Manager     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:42 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:14 am

Eric, how do you know the creche records weren't investigated thoroughly?

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:15 am

I say dream on. In my opinion, the PJ don't have the required evidence and the UK authorities don't have the willpower to stir the pot. Unless someone talks or Madeleine's body is found - the McCanns were always one step ahead of the police and will remain in that position. Their smugness during the Expresso interview said it all.

mr bluesky Been Cautioned     Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:18 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:16 am

answersplease wrote: But don't the files contain the dog videos? are we even sure they are the correct dogs ? - Dogs have passports too - did we see their pictures cross referenced to the dogs on the scene . The video could very well have been added later - you know from above - the same way the creche records were tampered . It is all becoming clearer !!!

Eric Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:02 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:18 am

ShuBob wrote: Eric, how do you know the creche records weren't investigated thoroughly? see my first post on previous page.

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:18 am

mr bluesky - please answer me just one question. Would you accept the parents' signature on the creche records as irrefutable proof that Madeleine was at the creche on 3 May? Just this one question - please.

mr bluesky Been Cautioned     Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:18 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:25 am

miffed - bit of an unfair question as it isnt just one thing that points to proof . It is the combined mix of four independant witnesses , the records and the signatures that lead me to believing that Maddy was alive on the 3rd If there was no eye witness of anyone seeing Maddy and there was just the signatures then I would be more inclined to think that maybe there was some skullduggery going on . I just cant see the Mccaans managing to fool all the creche staff by pretending that Maddy was there when she wasnt . Unless they are like that hypnotist on TV 3 2 1 - look into my eyes , directly into my eyes <!-- {[./images/smilies/4.gif]} -->

cushty Lifer     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:40 pm Posts: 7141 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:26 am

re the killing evidence in the files I think we will find the dog and FSS stuff is accompanied by sufficient obfusction to leave it in - we have the evidence of the press's take on it to show that that has worked nicely it is the witnesses of the behaviour of the McCanns, the sightings of them where they shouldn't be, the stories of their home life, that seem to be missing if there are all these 'sightings' of an abductor, surely there were some of the McCanns and their friends which were suspicious - and probably a fair number of false sightings too, and of Murat no doubt

Luz Mafia Boss     Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:01 pm Posts: 4852 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:29 am

Maybe I’d better keep out of this debate, but since I started writing, here it goes. 1.There is a big difference between what is in the PJ report and the Prosecutors report. The first is the result of an investigation on the field where every fact in it had to be checked and re-checked, the later is the interpretation of those facts made by the judges from a legal point of view, considering their sustainability for a trial. It is not surprising that the final decision was that there was not sufficient evidence to charge any of the arguidos, because in case of conflicting evidence they have to decide in favor of the suspect - as we know there was no possibility to clarify conflicting testemonies by doing a reconstruction. 2.The apartment is more than 15 years old and less than 20 – I can’t recall precisely. And according to records and people’s knowledge there was never (never ≠ 5 years) a death in that building. Unless it was a mysterious death that nobody knew of.

bohhee On Parole     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:34 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:31 am

Quote: Senti if we are going to dismiss everything that the police have gathered together as wrong, or tampered with, we might as well not bother reading it, and go back to what we had the last 16 months, which was poor press reporting, pink spin, forum myths and gossip and bits of blogs passed around other forums. [/quote] Sorry, beg to differ. No one is dismissing everything police gathered. It is a fact police had gathered that record and listed it on file. It's also a fact, police did not confirmed veracity of it. Its just as easy for Kate or Gerry to show up at Creche or even one of their friends to record what they want without bringing the minor (if there was a purpose for doing that). Not saying that was defi. what happened-- but it can be a real possibility. Is there CCTV in creche area? Also, Have you noticed, one poster pointed out the controversy of JT statement timeline against JT creche pick up time. So is Jane lying in her statement, then waht about the Creche record? OP didnt state JT signed out her own kid or so did she?

Luz Mafia Boss     Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:01 pm Posts: 4852 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:34 am

If the PJ says that the child was in the creche it is not based upon a single piece of information, so it doesn't matter if the record is true or false, but if it was false they would have found out and reported it. Let's rememeber that they interviewed every employee of the Ocean Club, not only the nannies, and the creche has other elements working there apart from them.

Skeptical PR Spokesman     Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 5:32 pm Posts: 8571 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:38 am

Luz : Thank you for indicating the age of the apartment block.

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:41 am

mr bluesky wrote: It is the combined mix of four independant witnesses , the records and the signatures that lead me to believing that Maddy was alive on the 3rd But if you take all the witnesses into account - the cook, a waiter, Pennington and Catriona Baker - we are left with only Catriona Baker, whose May 2007 statement was somewhat vague. The others are unreliable because they didn't have close contact with Madeleine and could be mistaken - apart from Pennington who just seems confused. Add that to the fact that the creche records so far - show only the parents' signature and we have the proof that Madeleine was indeed alive on 3 May! Is this the proof we must accept that Madeleine was alive on 17:30 on May 3rd? I would've thought that the Tapas group would be falling over themselves telling the police when and where they last saw Madeleine. They steered clear away - which in itself is highly suspcious.

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:43 am

Luz - but when these initial interviews conducted - were they asking these employees whether they had seen Madeleine on 3 May? I think the PJ would've been giving these employees the steely eyeball and wondering whether they or their friends were the sinister abductor.

Luz Mafia Boss     Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:01 pm Posts: 4852 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:47 am

miffed, are you implying that the PJ team of very specialised professionals sent from Lisbon, used to break up the most complex cases of organized crime, murder, etc. were so naive that they didn't know how to check facts and tetimonies?! Edited to add: I am sure that when they started suspecting the parents they reviewed all the testemonies...some were interviewed several times.

brandonflours On Parole     Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:09 am Posts: 1076 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:48 am

Maybe the nanny added madeleines name soon after she disappeared, as she realised the parents said Madeleine was there, and then saw that she hadnt been signed in, signed her in, for fear of getting in trouble. As the parents werent suspected then. <!-- {[./images/smilies/7.gif]} --> And is now too scared to admit it.

Arbiter Mafia Boss     Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:50 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:49 am

DCB wrote: 4 eye witnesses creche records poolside pic Amaral and PJ conclusions. Just how many witnesses/records/pics will it take until people believe that Madeleine was alive during the day of 3 May? I like the odd flutter on the horses. I would think that it's now odds-on that Madeleine was at the creche. Unfortunately there's no such thing as a cert in horse racing. Nor in life. May 2nd is still a possibly in my book until this is killed stone dead.

ShuBob Fund Manager     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:42 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:51 am

I, for one, am not doubting that the PJ have the facts! What I question is that the files released do not the true story! We know some information has been withheld! That alone says something!

sprat On Parole     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:32 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:55 am

I agree Arbiter but there are just far too many coincidences for my liking. What are the chances of K&M being out for a night on the town and a neighbour hears uncontrollable crying from a child in their flat for an hour and a quarter. They were apparently warned and offered a babysitter and yet something sinister still befell MM either a night or two later. Impossible? no Improbable? yes.

Skeptical PR Spokesman     Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 5:32 pm Posts: 8571 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:58 am

ShuBob : "I, for one, am not doubting that the PJ have the facts! What I question is that the files released do not the true story! We know some information has been withheld! That alone says something!". I know a man who will be casting a very beady eye over the Files. <!-- {[./images/smilies/1.gif]} --> Was very interesting to read P Rebelo's comment soon after he "took over" the case. ---"I agree with the thrust, and conclusions, of the May-Oct 2007 investigations." That would include the arguido status and the introduction, and result, of the dog's and their alertings too, I would presume. <!-- {[./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif]} -->

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:59 am

Luz - When investigating an abduction under tremendous pressure, it's quite possible that the PJ may just have taken the parents' word for Madeleiene's last known whereabouts - ie her bed at around 21:00. When the dogs alerted to possible involvement by the parents - in August 2007 - people's memories could've been muddled or conveniently muddled by others. It seems that questioning Madeleine's whereabouts is tantamount to questioning the PJ professionalism and skills. it's not. The PJ may be highly professional and skilled - but I don't think they were prepared for a case as unprecedented as this one. They won't be so naive the next time around.

Arbiter Mafia Boss     Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:50 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:00 pm

Sprat, I've lost money on odds-on favourites too many times to say Madeleine was alive on May 3rd, I'm still open to the possibility of the May 2nd. It's all about probabilities, I haven't seen anything for certain yet. The witness statements just beg a whole load of other questions and we have the creche records (which I'd actually like to see for myself) which appear to be only verified by KM and GM's own signatures.

cushty Lifer     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:40 pm Posts: 7141 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:02 pm

Rebelo could equally have meant the failure to bring charges and the decision to let the McCanns leave Portugal I think the jury is out at the moment on Rebelo - my own suspicion is that he was put in charge of the case to do a convincing wrap up

Arbiter Mafia Boss     Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:50 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:03 pm

If Gerry booked Madeleine early and Kate booked her out late, would that make them the first and last entries for a session?

diddy Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:51 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:03 pm

miffed wrote: He also concluded the parents could not have been involved as they were not present when Madeleine disappeared. Who came to this conclusion?

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:04 pm

The prosecutor.

bohhee On Parole     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:34 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:05 pm

Hello, everyone! rememeber paradiso beach cafe May3rd? T7 and families (minus McCanns family) were at Paradiso Beach cafe till 5.30 (or thereabout according to CCTV). One way to verify whether JT did picked up her kid from Creche at 4.30 is to find out what time they arrived at Paradiso. She cant have arrived before 4.30? According to DW deposition they were there till 5.30 then left for tennis. Why was M left alone in the Creche when all her friends were taken out to lunch or was it tea at Paradiso. And what were Gerry & Kate doing on their own. Was that the first time during their holiday that the group didnt all do things together. Was May3rd different activities a break away from their norm? The creche record may have been included in file as part of the exhibits gathered during investigation. Have to give credit PJ checked it (for obvious reason). But that does not mean it was a true reflection or true representation of the state of things. PJ did not state the outcome of their check on that record. In a nutshell, PJ did not confirm one way or another the veracity or authenticity of the record. They must have checked it, but did not give their verdict on it. Putting it in the file does not equal to their belief in its veracity because they did not come out and say checked record, confirmed to be correct. All they are saying is : Record exists.

Skeptical PR Spokesman     Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 5:32 pm Posts: 8571 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:07 pm

miffed : Of course they would, initially, have taken on board the parent's claim re last time MM was seen/observed. But it was not the August events which made the parents suspect in the eyes of the PJ. They began to suspect their accounts, and them, much earlier, the inconsistencies were too many and too obvious. But they did not suspect murder/accident/disposal of body until Mark Harrison provided them with his very strong report and advised the bringing in of the specialist dogs.

Luz Mafia Boss     Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:01 pm Posts: 4852 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:07 pm

Yes, many elements were not reported in the official document sent to the Prosecutors, I believe those were the ones that could not be confirmed (this is my opinion, of course) Shubob and miffed, I understand your suspicions, but I am sure there are transcripts of the testemonies that can be crossed in order to accept or reject the value of the facts presented. If we doubt the good faith of every witness or their objectivity, or the way the inspectors obtained them, than we better throw the files in the trash bin.

ShuBob Fund Manager     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:42 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:08 pm

Jane Tanner the liar said she picked up her kid at 4:30pm on May 3rd- an hour before Maddie was picked up- and she cannot tell conclusively if she saw Maddie or not! There were only 4 kids in total in the afternoon session! If she didn't see Maddie, couldn't she just inquire about her from staff given that she was "so into" her parents? What sort of people are these?

answersplease On Parole     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:47 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:09 pm

It's a very strange conclusion. Does that mean I could say, poison someone, leaving it in something they would consume later, then be out of the frame because I wasn't there when they actually died? The prosecutor is either far too naive to be in that job or come to a conclusion suggested by 'someone' else.

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:10 pm

bohhee - exactly. Until further information emerges - I'm of the opinion that the PJ had to accept 17:30 on May 3 from the April 2008 rogatory interviews. Why ask Catriona Baker such details if they had been confirmed earlier on in the investigation?

answersplease On Parole     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:47 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:10 pm

ShuBob - I already posted that maybe the T7 are so vague about seeing Madeleine because they wern't sure what they were supposed to say at that stage?

scarf1 Been Cautioned     Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:06 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:11 pm

answersplease wrote: A mini-theory re how vague the T7 were about when/if they saw Madeleine last - maybe they weren't sure what they should be saying, so fudged it a bit? You got it, far to much fudging and many other strange things* that seem to point to M not being around on the 3rd make me question the creche records. *Perhaps we can decide if any of these points is true/valid - McCanns refuse baby sitting offer on the 3rd - why? McCanns refuse cleaner on the 3rd - why? McCanns spend the 3rd on their own - why? Planting of story in press about M asking on 3rd why her parents left the kids alone to cry - why? Last photo not used in publicity until weeks later, altho supposedly taken just hours before she was "abducted" - why? McCanns didn't check on kids every half hour before the night of the 3rd, then suddenly lots of "checking" - why? Ever changing stories about what the McCanns did during the day on the 3rd - why? Nannies packed off to Greece soon after the 3rd - why? And on and on...

Luz Mafia Boss     Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:01 pm Posts: 4852 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:11 pm

«It's a very strange conclusion. Does that mean I could say, poison someone, leaving it in something they would consume later, then be out of the frame because I wasn't there when they actually died?» Yes. In Portugal you could not be condemned by just confessing a crime - it has no legal value on it's own, it needs to be backed up by material or testimonial evidence. Edited: I think I misinterpreted, you were saying that order and not be present? In that case if it was proved that it really happened you would be condemned as the moral author (sometimes more penalised than the executor)

mulderscully Hardened Criminal     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:12 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:12 pm

Why the last photo, the morning crying statement, the lack of phone records from may 2nd on ? Baker and Pennington are unreliable witnesses, but I must accept the signigns at the creche as serious evidence. However it's not 100% proof ...

ShuBob Fund Manager     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:42 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:12 pm

Luz, you can throw the files in the trash but until I see all the files, I'm taking nothing for granted!

answersplease On Parole     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:47 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:12 pm

Another thought that would support May 2 - if Madeleine was 'signed in' then found to be missing during the day, that would shift all the blame to MW and a couple of naive girls who would be less likely to be believed than the Ms. Possible?

cushty Lifer     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:40 pm Posts: 7141 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:13 pm

re the change in routine of Kate and Gerry during 3rd May - why assume they needed time alone to deal with something that had already happened? why not wonder if they needed time to plan something that had yet to happen?

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:13 pm

The Tapas group statements are the very reason why I find May 2nd so credible. They all avoided having said when last they saw Madeleine. This could be them trying to not get involved and pointing fingers without being sure or them having been roped in to assist with the cover up. I go for the former.

Skeptical PR Spokesman     Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 5:32 pm Posts: 8571 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:15 pm

cushty-"]Rebelo could equally have meant the failure to bring charges and the decision to let the McCanns leave Portugal"-(end) That too is a worthwhile opinion of his possible stance. I read him as meaning the manner in which the actual investigation was conducted and conclusions formed. The decisions of the PP involved were not part of the actual investigation. They were at a Judicial level above and beyond the investigation. P. Rebelo did not mention anything regarding the Judicial level in that statement he made.

mulderscully Hardened Criminal     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:12 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:17 pm

other reasons why I think any later than morning of may 3rd is impossible: look at the timeframe and the practicality of it: - an accident occurs - a girl dies - panic ? - attempted resuscitation ? - a shock is dealt with - plan to remove body - a body is removed - an abduction plan has been designed - acting has been instructed - a cleaning job is done - furniture is replaced - a cadavor odour is developing - check all surroundings so plan fits WHILE most of them play tennis, have dinner, drink eat and laugh.

Luz Mafia Boss     Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:01 pm Posts: 4852 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:19 pm

No ShuBob, I will not. But I am not questionning each piece individually, I’ll rather reunite them all, cross the information available and take my own conclusions. Nevertheless, I agree that it is very enlightening to debate and question everything as well as exchanging opinions.

Skeptical PR Spokesman     Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 5:32 pm Posts: 8571 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:24 pm

answersplease : Re PP. The AG seemed to take a very keen interest in having "a solution". Perhaps the PP was dancing to his tune. And having to make up any old hash to include in his personal report in order to accommodate that "solution". The PP's statement for absolvement is too stupid for words.

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:24 pm

That cadaver odour - in a cupboard? Eddie went straight to the cupboard! Why hide the body if their immediate reaction would've been to whisk her away? It tells me they had to sit down to recompose themselves and come up with a plan. And the photos with the beds joined together - away from the cupboard. Was it too near Madeleine's corpse for comfort? Luz - I think the problem here is that this was initially investigated as an abduction. It went on for a few months where the PJ were kept on the narrow and straight - giving the McCanns - with a little help from their wealthy backers - the space needed to cover their tracks. I really believe by the time the PJ were convinced the parents were involved - critical witnesses had been worked on.

bohhee On Parole     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:34 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:26 pm

miffed wrote: sentinel wrote: the prosecutor decided there wasn't enough evidence to proceed with. He also concluded the parents could not have been involved as they were not present when Madeleine disappeared. Yes ,it was most defi. included in the AG's release on 21st July. He also concluded parents could have not been involved because they were new in the PT : no friends and not familiar with terrain. He also criticised PJ handling of the case. I thought it was such a biased personal opinion which defects the objectivity of the investigation. I also thought it was wrong of prosecutor to state his personal subjective view in such a public way. I had an argument with SS over the prosecutor closing statement. It's a subjectivity vs objectivity issue.

cushty Lifer     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:40 pm Posts: 7141 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:33 pm

I was under the impression the Prosecutor was exonerating the McCanns from involvement in M's abduction - nothing more the case for her death is 'insufficent evidence to proceed' surely which I take to mean the Prosecutor didn't hold to the theory of the abduction, as he said nothing about the evidence for an intruder

craftyjan First Time Offender     Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:18 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:47 pm

Forgive me for going back to the subject of the last photo, but it has been mentioned several times in this thread. If 13.29 (British Summer Time/ Western European Summer Time) was the correct time when the last photo was taken, then the Mcs must, at some stage, have put forward the time on their camera to compensate for +1 hour time difference in a European country. This cannot have occurred for their trip to Portugal, because as we know, she is the only main land European country to share the same time zone as GB; i.e. one hour behind Central European Time and Central European Summer Time. 3/5/2007 (last photo) @ 14.29 BST+1 should be 13.29 BST Clocks forward March 2007 From 12.29 GMT to 13.29 BST Clocks back October 2006 From 13.29 BST to 12.29 GMT According to Wikipedia (link below) Portugal moved to Central European Time and Central European Summer Time in 1992, but reverted to Western European Time in 1996.** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Su ... of_Ireland It is possible, of course, that the Mcs had changed the clock on their camera on a different European holiday and being unaware that there is no time difference between our two countries, or through forgetfulness, did not change it back. However, there must have been clocks around in bars, shops, restaurants, etc. It would be interesting to know the time stamp on any other photos that were taken on the same camera during this holiday. I haven’t travelled abroad much and never with a digital camera. Could those of you that have advise whether it would be your normal practice to change the time on your camera for the duration of a week long holiday. Jan. Edited to delete the following sentance from the point marked ** "Coincidentally, this was the year GM last visited Portugal, IIRC." I have just looked at GM's statement again and it says he was in Portugal in 1994. Sorry.

Skeptical PR Spokesman     Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 5:32 pm Posts: 8571 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:49 pm

cushty : This quote attributed to the AG seems to be quite clear, "In an order issued today, ... the investigation into the disappearance of the minor Madeleine McCann has been halted because no evidence was discovered of ANY crime committed by the suspects," the attorney general's statement said".

sprat On Parole     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:32 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:51 pm

given the fact they apparently took almost no photos on their PdL holiday, I very much doubt they had time to tinker with the clock settings, CJ

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:56 pm

bohhee wrote: [ Sorry, beg to differ. It is a fact police had gathered that record and listed it on file. It's also a fact, police did not confirmed veracity of it. ?? bohee, what on earth do you think their job was?? what on earth do you think they were doing?? their job is to collect the evidence and determine its veracity, make a report and give it to the prosecutor. what is this "fact" you refer to??

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:58 pm

miffed wrote: The prosecutor. link??

blossom Mafia Boss     Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:27 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:59 pm

miffed (or anyone) - We don't know that none of the T9 saw M on 3rd. JT says she saw both McCs with their children (not 'some of') - yes she's a liar but it doesn't mean it's a lie. But discounting her, even if none of them saw her it doesn't mean she wasn't there. And what is your basis for mistrusting CB ? Why don't you count her as an 'independent' witness ? Also, in the statement in CdM to the pj, Madeleine went for the boatride on May 3rd under the watchful eyes of TWO employees - CB and another. The growing number of people being discredited to support the 2nd theory is quite baffling. Actually the whole premise of the McCs pretending she was in the creche, with the enormous risk that would entail, falls flat on its face anyway, imo.

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:01 pm

The archiving despatch: http://sol.sapo.pt/PaginaInicial/Socied ... _id=104350

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:01 pm

this is the nuttiest thread for a long time.

cushty Lifer     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:40 pm Posts: 7141 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:03 pm

cushty : This quote attributed to the AG seems to be quite clear, "In an order issued today, ... the investigation into the disappearance of the minor Madeleine McCann has been halted because no evidence was discovered of ANY crime committed by the suspects," the attorney general's statement said". thanks Skeptical - I should have taken the trouble to check for myself another door marked 'False Hope' now locked <!-- {[./images/smilies/icon_sad.gif]} -->

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:04 pm

blossom wrote: even if none of them saw her it doesn't mean she wasn't there Likewise it doesn't mean she was there. What amuses me about Catriona Baker is her having acknowledged having visited the McCanns during November 2007. Add that to the possibility that she may genuinely have believed that the PJ were hounding the McCanns and we have a recipe for embellished statements in April 2008 when the boat trip was first mentioned.

Skeptical PR Spokesman     Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 5:32 pm Posts: 8571 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:05 pm

blossom : This would be my reasons for being somewhat dubious of CB's independence. "Ms Baker has told friends she is convinced of the McCanns' innocence. She is still in contact with Kate McCann "She is now a live-in nanny looking after three children. Her location is being withheld on the request of the McCanns". http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -name.html

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:06 pm

miffed wrote: [ April 2008 when the boat trip was first mentioned. why do you think the boat trip wasn't mentioned before then? mentioned to whom?

craftyjan First Time Offender     Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:18 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:09 pm

I think I’m with you on this one, sprat. I don’t think they would have bothered to change the camera clock.

Eric Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:02 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:12 pm

blossom wrote: miffed (or anyone) - We don't know that none of the T9 saw M on 3rd. JT says she saw both McCs with their children (not 'some of') - yes she's a liar but it doesn't mean it's a lie. But discounting her, even if none of them saw her it doesn't mean she wasn't there. And what is your basis for mistrusting CB ? Why don't you count her as an 'independent' witness ? Also, in the statement in CdM to the pj, Madeleine went for the boatride on May 3rd under the watchful eyes of TWO employees - CB and another. The growing number of people being discredited to support the 2nd theory is quite baffling. Actually the whole premise of the McCs pretending she was in the creche, with the enormous risk that would entail, falls flat on its face anyway, imo. The McCann’s can fake an abduction, crèche records and photos, they can intimidate or bribe witnesses but they can’t turn back time. The text messages were sent the 2nd of May, GM couldn’t change or fake that so he decided to delete them. These messages must have been sent after Madeleine died. BTW, do we have at least the time stamps of these messages in the files?

kizzy On Parole     Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:02 pm Posts: 1446 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:14 pm

kaldey wrote: I would just query why CB was so vague when, if as you say there were very few children in the mini creche, she said something along the lines of - M left sometime between 3.35pm-6pm. Or have I misread the LP interview in April 08? Please, please correct me if I'm wrong on that. From Catrona Baker's witness statement: (...) 3. That yesterday Madeleine arrived at 9.10am. It was her father, Gerry, who brought her. 4. That is was her mother, Kate, who picked her up at 12.45pm. 5. That her mother, Kate, dropped her off at 2.50pm and picked her up at 5.30pm. 6. That in the same room as Madeleine, there were 6 other children in the morning and 4 in the afternoon (including Madeleine) http://frommybigdesk.blogspot.com/ This confirms what Mercedes has posted.

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:15 pm

Catriona Baker is the source of the boat trip information that Madeleine was supposed to have gone on. This information came from a press report after the case was opened talking about Madeleine's routine whilst at the creche . Catriona Bakers's initial statement merely mentioned that Madeleine was at the creche everyday since her arrival - nothing more. Catriona Baker was whisked away from PDL before further statements could be obtained from her. So the next time the PJ speak to her is during April 2008 rogatory letter interviews - suddenly there are details regarding a boat trip. After she has had cosy chit chats with the McCanns at their home. The pesky PJ needed someone to put them in their place and it seems Catriona Baker may just have done the trick. No-one has yet given out a second Catriona Baker statement from May 2007 talking about a boat trip. Who else - name if you please - accompanied Madeleine on this boat trip. Maybe that person saw Madeleine on 3 May.

blossom Mafia Boss     Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:27 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:16 pm

miffed - then the 'embellishment of statements' would have to apply also to the other employee on the boatride, and in fact for all nannies/employees. It would have to be quite a large conspiracy and with none of them breaking ranks. You'd have a bunch of previously normal people all deciding to lie/withhold vital info from the police and without any rational motive. Skeptical - i see what you mean. But believing them to be innocent doesn't require her lying to the police about Madeleine being with her (CB & others) in the day of May 3rd. It isn't necessary.

bomaris Lifer     Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:41 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:16 pm

kpnuts wrote: mercedes2 wrote: Does everyone really think that Amaral and his team were that stupid , and the whole investigation was based on false information?? I think they may have known a little more than we do. Nobody is suggesting Amaral and his team were/are stupid. If, for example, the records were written in pencil, nobody is suggesting Amaral and his team didn't notice that. Of course they would have! Nor is anyone suggesting the whole investigation was based on false information. I believe vancouver1 -- always an earnest, intelligent and reasonable poster -- is merely interested in evaluating the relative strength of this particular item of information. In the context of such mystery and downright lies about May 3rd timelines throughout the last 16 months, I too am interested in the answer to vancouver1's question, if you'd be so kind, mercedes2. I too feel we need to look into this thoroughly. How else could it be when we know that Pennington has come up with other fantastic stuff - linking a sighting of a fisherman taking a bundle on board a boat and then kicking it - to the "abduction" theory and when we know that Baker has been hob-nobbing with the McCanns (visiting them at their home) when they were still criminal suspects, as well as changing her evidence between May 07 and April 08 (by April 08) she can't remember who did the collecting and delivering. What I would like to know is:- (a) What was the pattern for nursery use by the McCanns in the days before 3rd May. (b) Is there an entry for each child? (c) Who writes the entries (are they all in one or two hands, suggesting staff do the writing, or are they in numerous different hands, suggesting it is the parents).

bomaris Lifer     Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:41 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:21 pm

miffed wrote: blossom wrote: even if none of them saw her it doesn't mean she wasn't there Likewise it doesn't mean she was there. What amuses me about Catriona Baker is her having acknowledged having visited the McCanns during November 2007. Add that to the possibility that she may genuinely have believed that the PJ were hounding the McCanns and we have a recipe for embellished statements in April 2008 when the boat trip was first mentioned. I'm interested in what you say...what do you mean by "when the boat trip was first mentioned". I find it quite incredible she visited the McCanns. One presumes this could well have been at the instigation of a member of Team McCann with a lot of money.

Skeptical PR Spokesman     Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 5:32 pm Posts: 8571 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:23 pm

blossom : Agreed. But it is the other little details mentioned in my quotes which would concern me if I was an investigator. I would have to ensure corrobation from a more "independent", source(s). Why could it be that only CB seems to have been given the special treatment re secret location by the Mc's ?

kaldey Local Lag     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:18 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:26 pm

Kizzy - can i clear one thing up for once and for all - I am in no way querying anything that Mercedes has posted. Or the police files for that matter. I am querying the records, in that I find it strange that CB is unclear when M left the creche at the end of the afternoon. Please see the statements sticky thread helpfully compiled by newperson. Mercedes has shared info from a reputable source in a meticulous manner. I am merely querying that info. This is getting very tiring and silly.

Skeptical PR Spokesman     Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 5:32 pm Posts: 8571 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:27 pm

How is it that CB's May 2007 statement was so brief and inconsequential ? Whereas her April 2008 statement in Enderby was so long and so full of detail ? It is usually the case that memory fades with time. But Catriona seems to defy that firmly recognised memory principle.

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:28 pm

kizzy - I've seen that FromMyBigDesk transcript and if anything can convince me - it's that transcript. Unfortunately - which police officer or who is backing up what Catriona Baker is supposed to have said. I can't figure that out.

Slim Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:55 am Posts: 1798 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:31 pm

[quote="blossom"]miffed - then the 'embellishment of statements' would have to apply also to the other employee on the boatride, and in fact for all nannies/employees. It would have to be quite a large conspiracy and with none of them breaking ranks. You'd have a bunch of previously normal people all deciding to lie/withhold vital info from the police and without any rational motive. assume maddy wasnt at creche that day.. no one could rember actualy seeing her. but when they checked the register her name was there. then assume the nannies believed that an abuction took place, then add kate and gerry saying they had been watched all week, would the nannies not feel some responsbility, for not noticing maddy not being there? so maybe went along with the sightings of maddy to cover their own backs? also they would of failed in there job not noticing maddy when she was supposed to be booked in. maybe they were supposed to head count and forgot, maybe this is why they could of been moved out of the MW complex to somewhere else as it wouldnt of been a great PR job would it? family holidays let us mind your kids, but we dont bother to notice if their there or not.

blossom Mafia Boss     Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:27 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:31 pm

i can just see it - next we'll have the suggestion that CB is blackmailing the McCs, for if lies can be bought from her, she'll never have to work for minimum wage again. miffed - yes the other employee in the boat had to have also seen Madeleine. That's what i mean. If one person in a group lies/doesn't know, then all the rest have to as well. It's a serious life and death criminal case, not about cheating on a school exam.

DCB Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:46 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:33 pm

Slim - don't forget to include the negligent cook and waiter as well.

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:34 pm

blossom - the problem is we have Catriona Baker (who visited the McCanns), a cook, a waiter (who presumably did not have close enough contact with Madeleine) and Pennington (always confused). Now we have another unnamed witness on the boat ride. And we have another unnamed someone saying what Catriona Baker is supposed to have said. From the above - May 3 is more probable than May 2. But in my opinion, May 2 (or prior to 17:30 on May 3) is still a niggling possibility.

cushty Lifer     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:40 pm Posts: 7141 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:36 pm

sorry - but this is getting silly if you are going to have that many maybes, you might as well add - maybe Madeleine was abducted after all if every piece of evidence in the files is going to be discredited unless it fits into a pre-ordained theory, then this board is not going to last as a place for objective discussion

Slim Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:55 am Posts: 1798 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:38 pm

DCB wrote: Slim - don't forget to include the negligent cook and waiter as well. thanks will go back and edit it later <!-- {[./images/smilies/35.gif]} -->

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:43 pm

custhy - taking into account the timelines - I think it's just as easy to believe the abduction timelines as death with full blown cadaver odour on May 3. Then there is premeditated murder. And maybe that is exactly what the McCanns have worked towards - all impossible scenarios and all we are left with is the possibility of premeditated murder. And it seems no one really wants to go there.

blossom Mafia Boss     Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:27 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:44 pm

Skeptical - you ask a good question. My guess is she didn't want publicity. FAIK CB has never spoken to the press. Some people like publicity (CP?) but others want to avoid it like the plague. Slim - i see where you're coming from but it's just too many assumptions for moi. I also simply cannot imagine on May 3rd, the catastrophic day itself, any nanny not knowing for a fact she was with the child. In my mind, the day would be etched for ever in detail. I'll leave this thread now because i'm afraid of annoying people. edit to say i mean of ME annoying people !

Slim Hardened Criminal     Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:55 am Posts: 1798 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:45 pm

cushty wrote: sorry - but this is getting silly if you are going to have that many maybes, you might as well add - maybe Madeleine was abducted after all if every piece of evidence in the files is going to be discredited unless it fits into a pre-ordained theory, then this board is not going to last as a place for objective discussion well if we are to take everything in the file as fact then we might as well give up now.. gerry wouldnt of been seen by smiths family. jane tanner and the tappas lot would be telling the truth. i dont know if the nannies seen her or not, am given a response of why they would or could lie.

abuela Mafia Boss     Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:49 pm Posts: 3324 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:45 pm

Eric wrote: The McCann’s can fake an abduction, crèche records and photos, they can intimidate or bribe witnesses but they can’t turn back time. The text messages were sent the 2nd of May, GM couldn’t change or fake that so he decided to delete them. These messages must have been sent after Madeleine died. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ OR it was pre-planned Eric.

kaldey Local Lag     Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:18 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:46 pm

If someone says a person left the creche between 3.35pm - 5.30pm my only conclusion can be that the last time they know for sure they saw that person was 3.35pm. Please feel free to argue the logic in that statement.

AspieDistra First Time Offender     Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:42 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:48 pm

cushty wrote: if every piece of evidence in the files is going to be discredited unless it fits into a pre-ordained theory, then this board is not going to last as a place for objective discussion Very true, cushty, I was just thinking the same myself. Personally, I'm worried that the signal to noise ratio is getting lower. Obviously, people feel the need to vent their spleen with a good piece of invective every now and again but, if that drowns out the common sense, what sorts of conclusions can we derive?

cushty Lifer     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:40 pm Posts: 7141 Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:49 pm

I don't fancy that journey much either Miffed though it would account for some of the actions on May 3rd, and even more of those after the 3rd. if it hadn't been for the dogs - Eddy in particular - I would even have been up for the 'abducted by prior invitation' theory

beachy Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:16 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:51 pm

Thanks to Laffin and mercedes. I think there is ample proof that Madeleine was in the creche on the 3rd. In the first instance, I do not believe that Catriona Baker would have lied about Madeleine's presence when first questioned by the PJ. This was months and months before her little visit with the McCanns "to see how everyone was getting on," and her early statement agrees substantially with the written record in the creche. The PJ inspectors working on this were not perfect, but neither were they stupid. I am sure that one of the first things they would have done would have been to verify Madeleine's presence in the creche on 3 May. If she was not there, they would have focused on the McCanns long before they did. Personally, I agree with cushty on this point: It's time to start discarding theories as they are disproved and concentrate on those that are left. I think Madeleine was alive at least till the afternoon of May 3.

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:51 pm

kaldey are you just ignoring the point that 3:35 pm was a mistake in copying the statement?

Eric Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:02 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:51 pm

abuela wrote: OR it was pre-planned Eric. When it was planned, why raising suspicion by sending text messages?

JillyComeLately PR Spokesman     Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:39 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:52 pm

. Good point, slim! Are we to believe the McCanns' and T7 witness statements just because they're in the file? More crucially, are we to believe Jane Tanner's statement re bundleman?! Just because something appears in the files doesn't make it true.

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:53 pm

don't know why people don't want to go with pre-med- I'll go there I have believed it for a very long time

ShuBob Fund Manager     Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:42 pm Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:54 pm

Quote: .......and her early statement agrees substantially with the written record in the creche. One wonders if she can also remember such details for the 3 other kids apparently present during the afternoon session at the creche with such precision <!-- {[./images/smilies/7.gif]} -->

miffed Mafia Boss     Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:30 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:54 pm

blossom - and Catriona Baker's statement that 'Madeleine was at the creche everyday since her arrival' is what you call etched on on someone's mind? She could have given full details regarding Madeleine's presence at the creche on 3 May and yet she didn't. Likewise - the Tapas group - not one of them mentioned having seen Madeleine. It should have been etched in their minds. They should have been tripping all over themselves to give accounts of her whereabouts on 3 May. Deadly silence says it all for me. We have unnamed people that are supposed to have seen Madeleine. Who are these people so we can get to their statements? AspieDiestra - what is common sense to you is not necessarily common sense to others. I really do battle to believe these people murdered their daughter or that anyone could've have the coldness of heart to dispose of their daughter in the short space of time between 18:00 and 21:00. I think it's quite possible that many witnesses were saying things which they thought and still think are helpful towards the McCanns. They simply don't believe them to have been involved in their daugheter's disappearance.

sentinel Lifer     Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:10 am Post Title: Re: CRECHE RECORDS Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:54 pm

i think we just need coldwater to come on this thread now and tell everyone what really happened <!-- {[./images/smilies/43.gif]} -->