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TinLizzy
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Date Posted:08/17/2010 3:53 PMCopy HTML

In the midst of all the questions we find ourselves scrutinising and discussing every day there are a few important situations that, even after nearly 4 years we can't seem to attribute a 'probable' scenario.

1) The crying episode heard by Mrs Fenn on Tuesday night

There is probably a lot of information missing that, once known, may help to explain, but in the meantime we can only put the puzzle pieces together with the information currently available.
After working on so many timelines etc I felt it would be an idea to share, in one place, as much of the information as possible that may help to put each scenario in context.
Hopefully, this would give the opportunity to those that don't have time to research to have suggestions regarding the possible scenarios.
[
b]1) The crying episode heard by Mrs Fenn on Tuesday night[/b]
http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Tuesday-May-1st/TUESDAY-May-1st-Timeline-from-Statements-1-796618.html
Tuesday morning, the maintenance men had fixed the blinds and shown Kate how to use the washing machine
Madeleine's group played mini tennis at 10.30am
They went to the beach at lunchtime, using a buggy and bought 5 ice creams, saw a guitarist but did not stay as it was cold

---Mrs Fenn heard a child (not a baby) crying,  becoming more expressive, between 10.30pm and 11.45pm
[quote]http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post440.html#p440
Pamela Isobel Fenn 2007.08.20
She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted “Daddy, Daddy”, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.
As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.
That night she contacted a friend called EDNA GLYN, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23.00, telling her about the situation, who was not surprised at the child’s crying.

---She also said that she never told the McCanns that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering. [/quote]

---ROB was not at the tapas as he was looking after his youngest daughter.

---According to Kates diary ROB had his food brought up
[quote](5D) Russ remained in apartment
Food was [color=#BF0000]brought[/color] up[/quote]

---Quiz night at the tapas which started at 9.00

---Najoua, the quiz mistress did not recall seeing Kate or David Payne while she was there.

---She said that noone got up from the table while she was there for twenty minutes from 9.30pm that she was invited to the table. (maybe since the start of the quiz at 9pm)

---She saw an empty place setting as if someone had left.

[quote]Najoya
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post233.html#p233
When questioned, she said that during the time that she was there Madeleine’s father did not leave the table, neither did any of the other guests, however, during this time one of the chairs was always empty, that of someone who had had dinner and left, not managing to indicate any identifying element about this person.[/quote]

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post17605.html#p17605
[quote] Najoua Chekaya
Date: 20 June 2007

--- That she recalls there being an [color=#BF0000]empty place [seat] at the table, not being certain if it had been Madeleine's mother's place [/color]given that she is not sure if they had met each other there at that time.

--- The photographs of the group of the McCann's friends having been shown to her, the deponent declares that from those photos seen she has some reservations about David Payne [in that] while she thinks he was also there, she had not noted his presence.[/quote]

---Kate received a 'flurry' of phone calls between 10.16pm and 10.27pm and called her friend Amanda at 7.36 the following morning.

http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Tuesday-May-1st/TUESDAY-May-1st-Timeline-from-Statements-1-796618.html

[quote]"Kate McCann's mobile was next activated six times, in rapid fire, between 22.16 and 22.27, after she had returned to Apartment 5A after dinner. The antenna traffic proves that these calls were not made to any of  the "Tapas 9".

---"On Wednesday 2nd May 2007, Kate McCann called her friend "Amanda" at 7.36.41 and again at 7.36.45. This was around two hours earlier than any of mobile activations on any other morning."[/quote]

---Kate and Gerry claim that Madeleine slept in their room because Amelie was crying

http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Tuesday-May-1st/TUESDAY-May-1st-Timeline-from-Statements-1-796618.html

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post507.html#p507

[quote]Kate 6th of September 2007
When asked about the fact her daughter had been crying on the night of the Tuesday for one hour and 15 minutes, between 10:30 and 11:45, she says it is not true. She says that on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, and slep with her and Gerry in their room. She says that before Madeleine appeared in their room, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine went to the room almost at the same time she head the crying. She does not remember if afterwards she or Gerry went to the childrens’ room, however she states that Amelie cried for a short time.
She says that on that night the twins slept in the room where Madeleine slept, each in their own crib.
When asked if Madeleine slept in their room, she says yes, as mentioned, on the Tuesday night.

GERRY
Monday or Tuesday MADELEINE had slept for some time in his bedroom with KATE as she [K] had told him that one or both twins had cried making much noise.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post544.html#p544

7th of September 2007
When asked if on the night of May 1, 2007 he went to have dinner at the Tapas with Kate, he says yes. As usual they would come and check on the children every half hour, usually alternating. They arrived at the Tapas around 20:30, and then went to the apartment every half hour, until they arrived back, at around 23:00, plus or minus 10 minutes. Occasionally one of the others in the group made the check, he does not remember if this happened on the 1st. It is not true that Madeleine had been crying that night for an hour and 15 minutes, because she was not alone all that time. [/quote]
The cleaner saw a cot in the parents bedroom on the Wednesday morning, which they both denied.

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post154.html#p154

[quote]Maria Julia S. da Silva.
She remembers that when she entered Apartment A on the Wednesday, the parents were inside. After being duly authorized, she entered and carried out her work, because they were already on their way out. While she was in the apartment, there were no children there, and she supposed that they were in the creche. While performing her work, she remembers having noticed that the couple was sleeping in the room located opposite the entrance, where she confirmed the presence of a child’s bed (crib). The room gives onto an outdoor garden by means of a terrace, as it is on the ground floor,. In the room next to the entrance to the apartment there was a bed placed next to the wall (where she supposed the missing child slept), and also the second child’s bed (crib). All these beds were untidy at the time, meaning that they had been used. She also declares that in the room next to the entrance was another bed that had not been used.[/quote]

What possible scenario could have existed regarding the crying?

Why was there only one child crying?

Was there only one child in the apartment or were there more?

Could it have been Kate crying?

Why was the cot in the parents bedroom the following morning?

Why did they deny it?

Why was there a 'flurry' of phone calls just prior to the crying?

Was Kate at the apartment for those calls?

Why did the crying stop abruptly (before/after the sound of the patio doors)

Did someone leave at that point?

Was Kate ROB and David Payne at the quiz night?

Why did noone leave the table?

Was the empty seat from someone that had left or was it ROB's meal that was taken up to him?

What could have been happening for the crying to be explained and is the cot in the McCanns bedroom (seen the following morning) a clue?

Hopefully I have added enough information to make a suggestion how this scenario may have happened, regardless of us not having all the information.


 
The crying episode has been discussed on many threads and I didn't intend for this thread to rehash old info, more to put the night into perspective to allow others, not familiar, to understand and give opinions..

Some of us have researched a lot of information and have an 'overview' of what we have been told has happened.

The 'crying' incident is one of a few important incidents imo, but many members have not been able to input their opinions as they are not aware of the details surrounding it.

I have tried to compile all the details of that night in the OP.

However, there were more 'crying' episodes and whether or not they are related in any way is up to the individual to decide.

This is my understanding of these occasions.

Tuesday night Mrs Fenn heard crying for 75 mins on Tuesday night.

Kate claimed that Amelie was crying and Madeleine came into her room  that night so she slept in Kate and

Gerry's bedroom on Tuesday night.

On Wednesday, Kate and Gerry, in their May 4th statements claim that Madeleine aked them on Thursday morning why they didn't come to the room that night because the twins were crying.

Both Gerry claims that Kate slept in the children's room that night as Gerry was snoring.

If that was the case, Kate would have been in the same room as Madeleine.

Maybe Madeleine was referring to a time before Kate and Gerry arrived home from the tapas (which may have been about 1.00 am as some of the T9 stayed at the tapas until an hour after closing when the waiters wanted to go home)

However, in Gerry's May 10th statement he claims Madeleine said it was her and Sean that were crying (not the twins) and in Kate's Septemebr arguido interview she said it was just Madeleine that was crying.

In the rogatories, Jane, Fiona and Rachael claim Kate told them it was it was Sean and Madeleine that was crying.  Not the twins as was first claimed.

Was this a second episode on Wednesday night or were they trying to explain the incident that happened on Tuesday night.

Mrs Fenn did not tell them as she didn't want to add to what they were going through.

They were not asked by the police until their arguido interviews (please correct me if I am wrong) so on May 4th they probably did not know who heard Madeleine crying and possibly made an attempt to explain it.

Maybe Amelie did cry on Tuesday when Madeleine slept in their room and the twins or Sean and Madeleine or just Madeleine cryed on Wednesday.

Hard to tell.

 


http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post133687.html#p133687


It's important to remember that once the timelines and discrepancies are put together that it is open to interpretation by the individual and may show something completely different although adding the phone calls leaves me very curious.

...I look at Tuesday night.
...Quiz night.
....ROB was 'supposedly' not at the tapas, though both he and JT have trouble recalling whether he was there. (relatively easy to recall if he joined in the quiz one would have thought)
....The quiz mistress joined the table. She does not remember seeing Kate or DP.
.....Najoua Chekaya did not see Gerry leave the table while she was there (9.00pm - 9.50pm)
...Ms Fenn heard crying for 75 minutes, starting approximately 10.30pm, the time that Kate finished receiving the 'flurry' of phone calls (between 10.16pm and 10.27pm)
....Kate claims they left the tapas at 11.00pm (were the phone calls received at the tapas or in 5A?)
....Kate claims Madeleine slept in their room after midnight because Amelie was crying.
<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/T9-Ear ... 06702.html<!-- m -->
.....Gerry made no comments about Tuesday night.
<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/T9-Ear ... 06700.html<!-- m -->
....The following morning there were very early calls to Amanda Coxon (who's husband is a pathologist)
....The cleaner noted a cot in the parents bedroom on Wednesday morning, both Gerry and Kate deny it being there.

I see red flags and with the added phone records I question several things.

Quote:
<!-- l -->post233.html#p233<!-- l -->
She remembers that last Tuesday at the end of the quiz, she was invited to the table of nine guests who asked her to join them for a drink.

She was at their table for about fifteen to twenty minutes and it was there that she met Mdeleine’s father, who directly invited her to the table, however, she does not know whether Madeleine’s mother was also there.


during the time that she was there Madeleine’s father did not leave the table, neither did any of the other guests, however, during this time one of the chairs was always empty, that of someone who had had dinner and left, not managing to indicate any identifying element about this person


-- Was Kate at the tapas that night?
-- Najoua did not remember seeing Kate and did not see Gerry leave the table so was Kate in the apartment (the reason Gerry did not have to leave)?
-- Did Kate receive the phone calls in the apartment?
-- Mrs Fenn heard the crying from 10.30pm to 11.45pm and yet Kate says she was back in the apartment by 11.00pm
--The knowledge of the phone calls placed into the Tuesday night timeline only add to the curiosity about a night that should have been relatively easy to remember (Quiz night)
--My interpretation is that there was something 'happening'.
-- Something they were 'hiding'.....
-- If Madeleine had not 'disappeared' could all of the above be explained or is it BECAUSE Madeleine disappeared that it can't?

Why are there such curiosities, many times during the week, if there wasn't anything unusual that happened to Madeleine until after 5.30pm on May 3rd.

If there wasn't anything to hide during the week why were all the phone calls deleted?

Is it a coincidence that santa's phone records and the discrepancies point to something happening earlier in the week?

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Re:Mrs Fenn heard crying/Quiz night

Date Posted:01/20/2011 4:23 AMCopy HTML

TinLizzy Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #2
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Re:Mrs Fenn heard crying/Quiz night

Date Posted:01/20/2011 2:20 PMCopy HTML



Thanks to jinvta for pointing out these two statements that confirm it was the TWINS that were 'apparently' crying, which was the same on their May 4th statement.

Gerry changed it to Sean and Madeleine on his May 10th statement.

One year later Rachael, Fiona and Jane claim it was Sean and Madeleine in their rogatory interviews.

Why would they change from the TWINS on May 4th to Sean and Madeleine on May 10th?

The statements also show their concern to the officers with sedatives being used to facilitate the 'abduction'.



Did they describe the crying incident Wednesday night to

1) Deflect and confuse from the crying on Tuesday night? (They knew it happened but did not know it was heard by Mrs Fenn until later)

2) Gave an indication that the 'abductor' was possibly watching them and disturbed them the night before?

3) Placed Madeleine alive on Thursday?

4) Use the suggestion of the sedatives to cover themselves if the twins were tested?

Witness Statements UK Police Liaison Officers

Quote:
Statement by: Stephen Markley

Was there anything done or said by Kate or Gerry McCann in your presence or during your various meetings that could raise any suspicion that they had any knowledge about what could have happened to Madeleine, beyond the circumstances described tothe Portuguese investigators?

My reply to the question was: No.

However, in relation to the above, I would like to add the following: At about 20.00 on Saturday 5th May 2007, I arrived at the apartment where Kate and Gerry were staying, with other officers. During the meeting Gerald and Kate had a number of questions to which they wanted follow up and responses from the PJ.

One of these questions was that they wanted the PJ to be aware of was Madeleine’s revelation about Wednesday night, when she said that she was left alone during the night. She told Kate and Gerry that she remembered the twins crying and that she wanted to know why neither her mother nor her father had gone to the room to see what was happening.

They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction.


Quote:
Statement by Jim McGarvey

Was there anything done or said by Kate or Gerry McCann in your presence or during various contacts that could raise any suspicion that they could have had any knowledge of what could have happened to Madeleine, beyond the circumstances described tothe Portuguese investigators.

My reply to the question: No.

In relation to the above I would like to mention that at approximately 20.00 on the 5th May, I arrived at the McCann apartment with other family communications officers. We were asked several times during this meeting about questions that Gerald and Kate would like to have followed up and responded to by the PJ.

I remember that during the meetings, Kate revealed that Madeleine had spoken with her in the morning of her disappearance and said that she remembered the twins had cried during the night and that she wanted to know why neither her mother or father had appeared. Kate asked herself whether this fact could have any relation with Madeleine’s disappearance.

Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine’s abduction.



http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Goncalo-Amaral/Drugs-1-925590.html

Interview with Goncalo Amaral

Q: Do you think the children were sedated?

A: There is no doubt.
(Here he told an anecdote: that Kate called a colleague of Gonçalo Amaral's in the PJ, in August, to ask them to check the twins for traces of sedation. Apparently Kate was alone when she called, and a bit upset. That same afternoon, Gerry called and cancelled the request.)

Q: What do you think is the meaning of the blood behind the sofa?

A: Possibly from an attempt at resuscitation.
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Re:Mrs Fenn heard crying/Quiz night

Date Posted:02/17/2012 12:54 PMCopy HTML

Just to get the night into perspective...

See [b]Discrepancies by Topic - Mrs Fenn Heard Crying/Quiz night[/b]
http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/Discrepancies-by-Topic/Mrs-Fenn-heard-crying-Quiz-night-1-836731.html


-Quiz night
-ROB was 'looking after his daughter'
-Najoua the quiz mistress did not recall seeing Kate or David Payne at the table
-There was an empty chair at the table as if someone had eaten and left.
-Kate had a flurry of phone calls in the 15 minutes prior to Mrs Fenn hearing the crying.
-Gerry claims Monday or Tuesday Madeleine came into their room because of Amelie crying.
-On the Chile documentary a hairdresser claims Mrs Fenn told her that they were at Chaplins.

[quote]Najoya
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post233.html#p233
When questioned, she said that during the time that she was there [u]Madeleine’s father did not leave the table[/u], neither did any of the other guests, however, during this time [u]one of the chairs was always empty, that of someone who had had dinner and left,[/u] not managing to indicate any identifying element about this person.[/quote]


Three possible scenarios to take into consideration:
Madeleine was alive
Madeleine had died
Madeleine died that night.

Possibilities:
1) One of the T7 was responsible for watching all the children (all apartments were very close), something happened to Madeleine...hence the crying... but they were unaware (hence the 'checking' to avoid one person being responsible and enable to abduction)

2) Maybe the crying was from a child that was being ignored by an adult that was present.

3) We know that Jane Tanner's daughter was 'bathed' in Rachel's apartment at some point....maybe the twins were in another apartment and being watched (another reason for them to claim neglect is to prolong the discussions of the twins in the apartment with Madeleine)

4) Maybe something did happen to Madeleine during that time (ROB, and possibly Kate and DP were not at the table) and it was this time that they may have tried to 'save' her.

I always feel that interviews with Goncalo Amaral are important to keep in mind.

http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Goncalo-Amaral/Drugs-1-925590.html

Q: [b]Do you think the children were sedated?[/b]

A: There is no doubt.
(Here he told an anecdote: that Kate called a colleague of Gonçalo Amaral's in the PJ, in August, to ask them to check the twins for traces of sedation. Apparently Kate was alone when she called, and a bit upset. That same afternoon, Gerry called and cancelled the request.)

Q: [b]What do you think is the meaning of the blood behind the sofa?[/b]

A: Possibly from an attempt at resuscitation.

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