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TinLizzy
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Date Posted:05/07/2011 7:23 AMCopy HTML

http://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/t12417-more-about-dna-from-an-expert

Thank you very much Primavera (http://frommybigdesk.blogspot.com/). Long and hard work to translate this very long and important foreign article of the Belgian'police site :"Enfants kidnappés".

Parents less and less credible?

Since the file is accessible to the press, each medium has its commentary. All Portuguese newspapers disclose disturbing elements put into question the assertions of parents. Indeed, many elements remain difficult to explain. Many details, facts and testimony contradicted the statements and declarations of parents and their friends. Of course the details revealed in the press will not be in favour of the McCann family. And for good reason, investigators have forged an opinion against them and this view appears over the pages. Attention, however, does not make me say what I did not say: I do not pretend that the PJ directed to the investigation based on his convictions on the contrary! The survey was conducted as they should. These are the contradictions, inconsistencies gross lack of cooperation, inappropriate reactions of parents who have naturally led investigators (who are professionals, let us not forget) to suspect the parents. You know all the disturbing elements that we are talking about:

* Kate who returns to his friends shouting: "They abducted Madeleine" but leaving his children in the apartment where kidnapping has been committed.
* Friends who engage in its research but who do not see in their own apartment if it is not there or if their children are still there.
* The room perfectly cleaned and Madeleine's bed not undone. (Thanks to the abductor to have redone the bed or wasn't Madeleine was not in her bed at the time of his disappearance)
* The fact that British diplomacy has been advised and exert pressure on a police investigation (Kate acknowledged in a British newspaper a few days ago, have telephoned British Prime Minister asking him to put pressure on the investigation to "advance it"
* The contradictory statements concerning forced the door (which was not), old and forced shutters (who were not either).
* Witnesses who do not see the same things that parents and their friends while at the same locations at the same hour (299 witnesses were interviewed).
* Inconsistencies in the statements of the friends group.
* The lack of cooperation by the group.
* The refusal to participate in a reconstruction (Yet crucial to know what happened to Madeleine - Is not the only objective?)
* The blood found in the room.
* The smell of corpses detected.
* Etc.


If these attitudes are proven, it is understandable that investigators have begun to have serious suspicions. There are many other and sometimes more striking that these small example I gave you. The press will submit others over the following days. The largest of discussing and articles will be published around the one hand dogs trackers which I make a summary:

The actions of British dogs specially trained to detect the smell of corpses and human blood has been decisive for suspectong Gerry and Kate . Facing coincidences in the action of two dogs, who reported the same places and the same objects, authorities were forced to admit the possible involvement of parents in the disappearance of their daughter and to designate them "arguidos" to confront the elements that could lead to an indictment. Inspectors explain that dogs have given signs of detection, smell corpse and human blood in places and on the following items:


In the apartment where Madeleine disappeared (In the room of the couple and in the living room)
In the garden
In the vehicle rented by parents 24 days after the disappearance of Maddie.
On two clothing Kate
On the toy of Maddie that Kate has not released the day following the disappearance.

In the apartment of friends of McCann in the village of Praia and in vehicles used by Robert Murat - the first accused to be suspected - nothing has been detected by dogs.

And on the other sections will turn around DNA analysis ...

The DNA results.

The media war began. The British newspapers do not take the same language as newspapers Portuguese. Thus, Clarence Mitchell, spokesman of the parents, said in the British press: "The DNA results have never been 100% compatible with the DNA of Madeleine. A note of caution was expressed at the outset. The police was wrong to pursue this line of inquiry. The Portuguese legal system has acknowledged having no proof, I can confirm that the PJ told Gerry that the DNA of Madeleine had been found in two apartments and in the vehicle then it is clear now that this is not what the first report of the FSS. You have to ask what the police is trying to do by inventing evidence that they did not and they can not not have. One might wonder in these circumstances what is their motivation? ".

We'll make a little "flat" the statements by Mr. Mitchell. From a police point of view, it happens that police say the suspects hold evidence, they did not actually, in order to crack a suspect, it should not be done any how. Indeed, it is difficult to tell a suspect, for example, that his fingerprints were found at the crime scene while the suspect knows wearing gloves throughout its wrongdoing and that consequently the police told n 'What is important! You must be a little seriously. Forward evidence that has not, must remain plausible knowing that if the suspect is indeed the culprit, the police will lose face if they invented evidence that the suspect knew to be false!

On the other hand, the interpretation of Clarence Mitchell DNA results are criticable.. To help us in our words, our association uses an expert on the subject. It is Madame S. Adamis, Expert on Judicial Unit Expertise Genetics at the Catholic University of Louvain (GNEX - UCL).

Children Association Kidnappés: Do you know the technique of LCN and it is commonly used?

S. Adamis: LCN (Low Copy Number) is a technique developed by the laboratories of Forensic Science Service English to analyze samples containing a very small number of DNA molecule. The basic principle is to increase the number of cycles of PCR to increase sensitivity [Gill, 2000; Whitaker, 2001]. This technique has two major drawbacks:

1) it produces unbalanced profiles for one or the other marker, with possible disappearance of an allele due to stochastic effect.

2) it leads to the detection of either allele in the negative controls of unknown origin.

The first drawback led to obtaining profile incomplete, partially wrong and not reproducible. This little reliability goes against the spirit as advocated notably by the ISO 17025 standards in force in our country.
The second requires necessarily work in special conditions to avoid contamination inherent in the environmental conditions and in particular from human DNA present in the dust of the atmosphere or on the surfaces of objects. Seen the limitations of this technique, the conclusions could be easily attacked and cancelled during a trial. This technique is not used routinely in DNA laboratories in Belgium.

AEK: If on an analysis of DNA, 15 markers out of 19 belong to a person "x", can we conclude that this is this person?
SA: If the profile is complete and quality, and that the markers are analyzed information then no doubt! The result is discriminatory. This result is very reliable. The order of error is 1 for 1 billion! It is almost impossible it otherwise. For a conclusive DNA profile, it takes a minimum of 7 markers. In case you are presenting, 15 markers on 19 leave no doubt. This result is quite reliable and usable in court. The error rate for a one billion is so unlikely that the result is recognized by judges without lawyers can not bring them into doubt.


We open a parenthesis. We understand even better the attitude of the PJ. In the face of inconsistencies we are talking about earlier, the police have doubts. Can dogs detect traces of blood and the smell of a corpse. The doubts turn into belief. But it lacks something. All these elements are not sufficient to face charges in a court. It lacks a confirmation. A scientific confirmation. This confirmation comes with the first analysis report which said that 15 DNA markers on 19 belong to Madeleine. It does not need more police. The proof is there. Self-explanatory. The first report analyses prove the guilt of parents in the eyes of investigators. This report should be considered as a proof by, I believe, all police forces. Once parents have been placed, logically, in the particular status "arguidos." Of course, an error rate of 1 to 1 billion is not a profile of 100%, it Clarence Mitchell rightly so. Where, then, there is a huge surprise. A second report by the FSS comes and totally contradicts the first. Distroying evidence that the police have thought. According to the report, the samples have been contaminated finally making them very unreliable. Several DNA have been mixed to create the DNA of anyone!

EAK: If you get DNA from three different people, can we recreate the DNA of anyone?

SA: If the DNA is collected DNA mixed with that of 3 individuals in an equivalent manner, then we could actually find the DNA profile of anyone. The mine just like yours. But it is important that the mixture is perfectly equivalent. In which case the reliability rate is very low, from 1 to a billion 1 per 1,000 or 1 in 100. It is therefore more question to consider this result as discriminatory.

So what happened? NRL unreliable? The contaminated samples at the second analysis, but not the first? The first botched analysis by the FSS? There would be a good way of knowing. As two expert reports contradict each other, we practise a third analysis in an independent lab. But, alas, following an incident that remains unexplained, the only existing DNA samples were inadvertently lost or destroyed by the laboratory. What makes impossible a third analysis

For the purposes of this discussion, let us call the sample of Madeleine's DNA that was obtained from her pillow in Rothley or wherever they got it the "known sample." The DNA found in the Scenic and the apartment would have been "questioned samples."

Regardless of the number of markers you are testing, if the DNA in ANY of the markers in a questioned sample does not match the DNA in the known sample, then the questioned sample does not come from the same person who was the donor of the known sample of DNA.

I have not seen anything in writing to date, but I have been assuming that the FSS was able to extract 15 markers from the sample of DNA found in the back of the Renault Scenic, and that the other four markers were so degraded (by heat, sunlight, efforts to clean them up, whatever) that they could not be analysed. If they had 4 out of 19 markers that clearly were NOT a match for Madeleine's DNA, that would have been the end of it, in my opinion; the DNA from the Scenic could not have been hers.

I have read that the Portuguese require 19 markers for a conclusive result on a DNA analysis because under their laws that is how many markers are required for a positive match on a paternity test. This is more markers than I have ever heard of being required anywhere for forensic purposes in a criminal case. In the UK, 10 markers are tested, plus the sex of the donor is determined, and a 10:10 match is considered conclusive. In America, the FBI CODIS database contains 13 markers. Individual states in America are allowed to pass their own laws about how many markers must be tested before evidence can be introduced in court, but most of the 50 states use 13 because there is so much interface with the FBI database. Therefore, in America, a 13:13 match is considered conclusive that the questioned DNA and the known DNA came from the same person. Neverthess, if Portuguese law requires analysis of 19 markers, then that's what must be done. Period.

Regarding your specific questions:

(1) Only identical twins are born with identical DNA, and even in that case, every individual on earth begins to accumulate mutations to his/her DNA that may make it possible to distinguish even between the DNA of identical twins. There is a laboratory in Texas called Orchid Cellmark that claims it already can do this, but so far as I know, this technique has never been used in court.

The DNA of everyone on earth is at least a 99% match. Yep, that's right. The DNA of the most profoundly mentally disabled person who ever lived was a 99% match for Albert Einstein's. The DNA of the poorest beggar on the streets of the poorest city in the world, whoever that unfortunate soul happens to be, is a 99% match for the Queen's. Rather humbling, isn't it? (Note: Studies published in 2001 indicated that the DNA of all human beings was about 99.9% alike. More recent information, obtained from the human genome project, indicates that the accurate figure is probably somewhere in the range of 99 - 99.5%.)

The DNA of siblings is even more alike than that of individuals selected at random, which makes sense, considering that they inherit their DNA from the same two people. Within that 1% or less variation, however, there are literally tens of thousands of different combinations that make the DNA of any one individual unique from that of everyone else, including his/her siblings.

The FBI's CODIS database, which contains the DNA profiles of approximately 6 million convicted criminals, has been extensively studied. No 13:13 match of genetic markers has ever been found except between identical twins. There was a widely reported case several years ago in which a forensics examiner for the state of Arizona in America found a 9:13 match between two unrelated individuals, and there has also been a report of a 10:13 match between two related individuals who were products of an incestuous relationship.

Given the experience with CODIS, I think it is highly, highly unlikely (as in, the odds in favour of it would be one in the tens of millions) that one would find a 15:15 match on genetic markers between two different members of the McCann family.

(2) As I have posted before, DNA cannot be used to determine whether a person was living or dead at the time the sample was taken. A DNA sample taken by swabbing the inside of the cheek of a living person one hour before death and another sample taken from the same person one hour after death would look identical under a microscope.

What MIGHT be possible, and it would depend on several different things, including the degree of experience and skill of the forensic examiner and the quantity of DNA available, would be that a forensic examiner asked to attempt to extract DNA from some object that appeared to contain a substance that might be a bodily fluid - a piece of clothing, say, or a piece of carpet from an automobile - MIGHT be able to recognise the type of fluid and therefore tell whether the donor had been alive or dead. There are certain types of fluids - one is an exudate from the lungs that is only seen after death - that might be recognisable as such. In Madeleine's case, however, with so little material available, I am virtually certain that this would not have been possible, i.e., it would not be possible to tell whether the donor of the questioned sample of DNA found in the back of the Scenic was alive or dead at the time the DNA was deposited there.

(3) If the forensic technicians were able to extract 15 markers from the material in the Scenic that were a match for the known sample of Madeleine's DNA and the other four markers could not be tested because they were degraded, there would be a high probability mathematically that the questioned sample of DNA came from Madeleine.

Just to give you an example, at the time the forensic examiner in Arizona found the 9:13 match on DNA markers, the FBI said that the chances of that happening would be 1 in 113 billion. Well, that obviously isn't right, because there WAS, in fact, a 9:13 match, and there are nowhere near 113 billion people in the world. There is something called the "prosecutor's fallacy," which is an example of mathematical analysis called "binary classification" which shows that even 10:10 or 13:13 DNA matches are subject to error rates much higher than prosecutors sometimes attribute to them. However, whilst saying that the chance of an incorrect finding is 1 in 113 billion is clearly ridiculous, my opinion would be that the chance of two DNA samples belonging to different people if the results of the forensic analysis shows a 15:19 match would be miniscule - at least 1 out of hundreds of thousands, if not millions. It would not, however, be a smoking gun. Any DNA scientist will tell you that DNA is only one piece of the puzzle in any case and should be viewed in the context of all the other evidence. However, if FSS got a 15:19 match between Madeleine's known DNA and the questioned sample from the hire car, and 4 other markers were too degraded to be tested, in my opinion, that would be a powerful piece of circumstantial evidence.

But in fact, I don't know exactly what they got. I don't understand what John Lowe is saying. This is the statement from him that I find so troubling: "Let's look at the question that is being asked: 'Is there DNA from Madeleine on the swab?' It would be very simple to say 'yes' simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample. What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine - because Madeleine has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeleine merely appears to match the result by chance."

What is he saying? Um, Mr. Lowe, when the "components" (also known as "markers") within the result (AKA questioned sample) are the same as those in her reference sample (AKA known sample of Madeleine's DNA), then you're SUPPOSED to say "YES," or actually you're supposed to say the final results are inconclusive because 4 of the markers were too degraded to be tested, but all the others matched. How the stuff got where it was found is not the subject of DNA analysis. That's the kind of thing that an expert witness should be prepared to be asked about on the stand at a trial; could the questioned sample of the DNA have gotten where it was found by accidental transference, for example, from another object?

DNA analysis is just that - ANALYSIS. Either they were able to extract markers from the DNA found in the Renault Scenic that were not degraded and could be analysed, or they were not. Either those markers matched the markers in the known sample of Madeleine's DNA taken from her pillow in Rothley, or they did not. Was the gentleman quoted correctly? If so, why all this double-speak? If it's the case, why in heaven's name not just SAY, "There are limits to LCN DNA technology, and the sample from the automobile was too small for any analysis to be definitive." Or, "When we tried to analyse the questioned sample from the automobile, we discovered that the DNA of two or more people were mixed together, and given the minute amount of material we had to work with, we simply were unable to separate them. We cannot say for certain when this happened, but regrettably, it made it impossible for us to determine with any reasonable degree of certainty whether the DNA was Madeleine's."

My guess - and it is just a guess - is that no one leaned on the FSS. I don't think anyone had to. My personal opinion is that they were freaked out by what happened with the trial at Omagh and knew that if they came up with DNA results that didn't stand up in this case, they could kiss their cash cow of being one of the few labs in the world that can do LCN DNA analysis good-by. Trouble is where they are concerned, there is more than one thing that can cause police departments and other agencies the world over to doubt your results. One is to make mistakes and be wrong. Another is to be too afraid to call it when you see it.





Let me get this straight...

So in portugal the judicial standard for 'proof' from dna is 19 markers
Yet in the USA it is a magic 13 however generally to be conclusive you only need 5.

So, the dna found matched maddy to 15 markers... ? however due to the portugese standard which needs 19,
they were not able to say that it was Maddy, legally in that country?

So if the case got brought to the UK they could say it was the DNA of maddy found?
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