6pm

JT may 4
Russell O'Brien, Matthew Oldfield and David Payne left the beach (7) a little earlier to go to the tennis court for men's tennis night. When the group came back from the beach (7) at around 6.20pm, they went past the tennis court and they saw all the men, including Gerald McCann, on the court. (8) They stayed to talk to them for around 20 to 30 minutes. Gerald McCann behaved normally. The interviewee supposed that Kate was at the apartment (1) putting the children to bed. Around 7pm, they went to their own apartments (1) with the children. The interviewee bathed her two daughters, read them a story to send them to sleep. As **** was unwell and had difficulty going to sleep, she stayed with her father who, meantime, had returned. The interviewee went to dinner at the, "Tapas," restaurant at around 8.30pm.
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“Erm, so what was I saying, sorry, I got side tracked there. I was, so we’d come back
for the tennis, yeah, we’d sent them back to the tennis”.
4078 “That’s right”.
Reply “Because we thought ‘It’s not fair that they’ve’”.
4078 “That’s where we were, yeah”.
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “I’m struggling to remember as well”.
Reply “Yeah, it’s not fair that they’ve changed the time for us and then they don’t go. So
they went back up at that point and then we followed up probably about quarter of an
hour later with all the kids and we went to the play area by the tennis courts and had
a, you know, we probably stayed there for about half an hour or so. At that point, I’m
not, I can’t say how long that was, about half an hour”.
4078 “Were Madeleine and the”.

Reply “No, they weren’t there. No, they weren’t there. Yeah, they’d most, but Gerry was
there, he was playing, he was playing tennis”.
26.56 4078 “Right”.
Reply “Yeah. Erm, so, yeah, we stayed there for a bit and then took the children back and
got them, you know, bathed and blah blah and got them ready for bed, but that was
probably, by that stage that was probably, erm, half seven’ish probably I’d say, by the
time we, we went back, if not maybe even a bit later, I’m not sure, but around then,
around the seven o’clock mark”.
4078 “Nothing different to the rest of the holiday really?”
Reply “No, no, no, just, erm, yeah, it was the same, we’d done that almost every night. I
think, I think both of them had a bit of a screaming fit that night, because I can
remember them being quite bad when they got into bed, because I think they just lost
it. And also I think Exxxx was, because Russell was still playing tennis she was like
‘Where’s daddy, why is he not putting me to bed’, so there was a bit of that as well.
But I can remember them being, being a bit, err, it was tiredness, they were doing so
much in the day that they did kick off a bit when we got back to the room, but. Erm,
so, yeah, I think Russell came back, I think they were supposed to finish at half seven
and it was around, I think they had a bit of, but it went on a bit longer, so they were
probably back about, he was probably back about quarter to eight. And then put the,
and they weren’t, Exxxx and Exx weren’t in bed at that point, erm, I think they, it was
probably about quarter past eight by the time we actually put them, them in, them
into bed.



Matt Oldfield's statement of 10th May regarding 3rd May

About 18h00 he, ROB and DP went to a social men's tennis match, held in the above resort area, where they remained until about 19h00. He clarifies that when they arrived at that meeting GM was already there, with KM and her children watching the match, the rest of the women and children joining them [KM and children] later.



GERRY That they bathed the children, the deponent having left at 18H00 for a tennis game only for men, at which were: DAN, tennis instructor; JULIAN, with whom he had played tennis several times; and CURTIS, with whom he had also played.

KATE At the flat they both bathed the children, and close to 6:00PM Gerry went to the tennis courts, soon after the children had finished their bath. They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key. She does not know if it was locked, and presumes it was Gerry who opened it. At lunch time they also entered by the same door.

Gerry During the afternoon of that day the rest of the group members, including the children, were at the beach, [they] having returned at 18H30, the time at which he saw DP next to the tennis court.

. DAVID went to visit KATE and the children and returned close to 19H00


KATE After the children’s bath, already alone, she put pijamas and nappies on the twins, gave them each a glass of milk and biscuits. Before bathing the children and because it was early, they had thought of taking them to the recreation area, but then decided against this because of tiredness.

While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40PM and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the verandah door. She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who it was. This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left by this door. She confirmed it was David Payne, because he called out and had opened the door slightly. David’s visit was to help her to take the children to the recreation area. When David returned from the beach he was with Gerry at the tennis courts, and it was Gerry who asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area, which had been arranged but did not take place. David was at the apartment for around 30 seconds, he didn’t actually enter the flat, he remained at the verandah door. According to her he then left for the tennis courts where Gerry was. The time was around 6:30-6:40PM.

Jane Tanner
Thursday night was actually the men’s night of tennis
normally it started at half six but we’d asked ‘Could the
social tennis start at six��? so that they then gave us time to get the kids into bed afterwards��?

j remember saying to Russell and Matt and everything, it was about quarter past six, I said ‘Oh you’ve got to go to the men’s night tennis because they’ve
changed the times for us and now you’re not blo*dy going��? you know, that sort of, it
was that sort of thing. So I think at about quarter past six they, they all went up to, erm, to the men’s tennis��?

j we followed up probably about quarter of an
hour later with all the kids and we went to the play area by the tennis courts and had
a, you know, we probably stayed there for about half an hour or so

jGerry was
there, he was playing, he was playing tennis��?

ROB

around the six o’clock mark we were, we were having such a good time down there we were, we were half tempted to, for the men not to go back to what was planned up at the Tapas, erm, namely a sort of men’s social tennis round, you know, which I think was due to start at six. And I think as it got around six we thought it’s not really fair, you know, three of us not going there, there might not be enough players, you know, there wasn’t a full resort, so me, Matt and Dave, erm, left everybody else down at the beach and headed back up to the, to the, erm, the apartments, well to the Tapas anyway


DP -
Err after we had the meal we got some ice cream and then err we decided that we were gonna go up and play tennis so I left err with err Russell, we left the, err the girls at the restaurant and we went up to the, err back up to the Ocean Club. Err I, as I say I’m not sure you know what happened to Matt and Russell at that particular moment but I remember then you know I went over to see err Gerry at the err you know tennis courts, just to see you know what was happening, and err decided that we’d, you know I’d come, come back to play tennis and err Gerry had asked me just to pop in and check everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can’t remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you know he’d asked me to pop in. So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry’s apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we’ve looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we’ve got that I was you know going to Kate’s about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it’s a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they’ve had such a great time, they’re really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can’t remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn’t there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who’d had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left there, went and got my stuff, went back to the tennis courts and then err there was me, Matt and Russell and I think Gerry played a little, for a little while but he decided that he’d, he’d played enough tennis for that day and err was going back and so it left with me,
 Russell and err Matt and err Dan who was the, the you know the tennis coach from Mark Warner. Err so we played some tennis and you know we were having a good knock and then it was getting a bit late so err we, you know we left the tennis courts, went back to our respective partners to get ready to go out, you know it was, it was, you know certainly after half past seven that we’d, you know we’d left the courts, perhaps even a bit later than that. Err when I got back err I think because Fiona had done a lot of babysitting and left me playing tennis she said well I’m gonna go for a very quick run so she went for a run on the beach, you know, err got the kids ready, bathed, got them ready for err to go to bed but again you know as we’d got back late err from the tennis courts you know the whole time err for that evening was not, you know later.

FP

- then I remember it getting to tennis time, because it was men’s tennis that night and the men had all rearranged the time to suit us and it was getting towards six o’clock and, you know, they were going to be late, so I remember saying ‘Look, you better go because it’s not fair, you’ve moved the time then you’ll be late’. Erm, so I think that, that was sort of approaching five to six.

And we were toying with the idea of getting the kids ice creams for pudding and then thought oh we probably don’t have time, but then we decided well, you know, why don’t you go off and go to your tennis and we’ll just give them their ice cream and follow on.

And so I think they left probably about, you know, that being Matt and Dave and Russell, around five to six, six o’clock time.

And the, you know, the wives stayed behind with the kids, they had ice cream and then we followed on about ten past six
and we just walked back up to, to watch them play a bit of tennis and give the kids, you know, a little playtime. Erm, and I don’t think we stayed there that long that night because the kids were pretty, pretty tired.


I don’t know who was playing who, but there was certainly Gerry, Matt, erm, you know, Russ and Dave, erm, and typically being men, it was all quite competitive and, erm, and far different to the women’s tennis. Erm,

Kate and the kids, I think, as I said earlier, weren’t there and, you know, they, as Gerry said, were just absolutely knackered and Kate was getting them bathed and ready for bed.

it wasn’t a surprise that they weren’t there. Erm, and I know Dave had said to me later, because he, erm, after tennis he’d said he’d checked on Kate and the kids before going to tennis”.

“How did that come into your conversation?”
Reply
“Because he was saying how angelic they all looked and he said to Kate when we all sat down at the Tapas table as well and he was sort of joking how they looked like perfect children, because they were all sat there, all clean in their pyjamas, having a story”.
1485
“Yeah. But when did he, specifically, when did he tell you?”

Reply
“I think it was when we were getting the kids ready for bed and we were back in our apartment”.


MO -

So we finished and set off, probably about twenty past six, sometime around there, because it was after when we’d got them to move, we were already late, so I think if we’d said, if they’d move it to six thirty and we’re setting off at six twenty, I would have been happy that we could have made it there in time, but we’d already gone past the time when I thought we won’t be able to go because we were already so late”.
00.07.20 4078 “Was that you, David and”.
Reply “Russell”.
4078 “Russell”.
Reply “It was men’s social. Erm, so we went back up, erm, back to, well I went back to the apartment, got the tennis gear and back onto the courts or back to the courts area, erm, and the other guys went to get their stuff. Erm, and I think Dave said that he’d been to the apartment, but I don’t know that for definite, that’s just something I think has come out, I didn’t know anything about that. So we went, got our stuff and came back to the courts, which were already in play, because the social had already started. And Gerry was down playing on a court, I think there was only three of them, I think the, erm, the coach, whose name I can’t remember, the tennis coach, the blonde haired bloke, erm, was playing to make up the numbers. And so we waited and watched for a little while, so we didn’t get on court until, phew, sometime closer to seven,


DP
- So where were you going then? Presumably you weren’t going to play tennis were you? When you left the beach, what was…”
Reply "Yeah, oh yes that was always the intention and that’s what Fiona was saying, look if you’re actually gonna do anything tonight you’d better get yourselves up there and it’s getting quite late so that was, you know, that’s the reason we’d all gone ahead because we waited till the children had finished eating and err got in the prams and got up there, you know it takes another five ten minutes on top walking back with them, err then you know we’d have lost the opportunity. Err again, presuming that you know the tennis was usually around six thirty, that if you know, if we’re leaving the restaurant you know, quarter past six or whatever, around that time, that you know if we’d leave it much longer with it taking ten minutes or whatever to walk up just to start the tennis at half six, you know we were already cutting it fine and I think as it transpired we were playing tennis till you know even beyond there, it was quarter to seven, or around then and err you know if we’d have left it much later then we just thought well it’s gonna finish, so.”
00:33:29 1485 "Right, were you going for a lesson or were you actually going to play?”
Reply "We were gonna play, there was obviously me, Matt and Russ, and Gerry was making up the four, fourth err person.”
1485 "But he was already playing?”
Reply "Yeah he’d already been playing and that’s partly the reason that he kind of like threw in the towel early and said ah you know I’ve had, enough’s enough, I’ve had a good day and err but then we managed to get Dan, the pro, just to play a bit with us err you know so that made up the four ball err just for a little while.”
1485 "So your four…”
Reply "Yeah.”
1485 "Was yourself, Matt, Russell and…”
Reply "Well it started off with Gerry and we had a bit with him and then Dan played a bit.”
1485 "And Dan, Dan replaced Gerry then did he?”
Reply "Yeah.”
1485 "How far through the game was that?”
Reply "I can’t remember.”
1485 "Sets wise?”
Reply "Err you know whether we played one, you know again this is just, yeah usually we’d play a set and then change over so most likely it would be Gerry played a set and then left, that was most likely how it happened.”
1485 "Okay, and it was at what point that Gerry said to you go and, would you mind checking at Kate?”
Reply "Well I mean coming back from the beach I’d got no equipment to play tennis you know, etcetera, so I had to go back to my room to you know change into stuff appropriate for playing tennis in, and err so he knew that I’d walk up that by and past so he said oh why don’t you err, you know can you just pop in on the way, the way up, so it was on the way back from me picking the stuff up.”
1485 "Right, so you’ve walked past, you’ve walked past Gerry’s apartment to get to yours.”
Reply "Mm.”
1485 "Got changed?”
Reply "No, you know it was, again whether it was, in my mind it was on the way up that I’d popped in to Kate but it could have been on the way back, again, I’m sorry.”
1485 "No, it’s okay.”
Reply "For my vagueness.”
00:35:21 1485 "But either way you’d have had to walk past because you go the roadside don’t you?”
Reply "Yeah.”
1485 "So you’d have had to walk past Gerry’s…”
Reply "Yeah.”
1485 "Front door twice wouldn’t you?”
Reply "Yeah.”
1485 "Is that right?”
Reply "So, the reason why I think it was more likely that I did it on the way there was because I’ve called in through the err patio, it kind of made more sense that I’d have walked in through the gate and then up through the you know where the sliding doors are to say I’m here, rather than going up to my apartment, coming back down, coming past the apartment and then coming in the sliding doors.”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "Because what I would have done is I’d have got changed and gone downstairs and then knocked on the front door because that, you know that would have made more sense rather than going all the way round and…”
1485 "Yeah, course.”
Reply "So that’s in my mind why it makes more sense that it was, that that was on the way up.”
1485 "Right, so how long did you spend in your apartment before, I know you, I appreciate that you can’t recall whether it’s going or coming.”
Reply "Yeah.”
1485 "The likelihood is that it’s on the way.”
Reply "Yeah.”
1485 "How long did you spend in your apartment?”
00:36:24 Reply "I mean again, we’ve you know, we’ve chatted about the timings and everything and you know looked at the photographs and you know, you know we were leaving about quarter past six from the err restaurant, we’d gotta walk up there, ten, fifteen minutes, conversation with Gerry, conversation with Kate, you know that’s another five, ten minutes on to your ten, fifteen minutes walk so you’re talking twenty five minutes, so that’s taken you to twenty five to, twenty to seven, well you know we were certainly playing tennis for a, you know the best part of an hour err so you know it couldn’t have been long that I was in the apartment, you know a matter of minutes.”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "You know just to pick the kit up and, and then go back down really.”
1485 "Did you have your own racquet?”
Reply "I didn’t, no, I was using the, err Mark Warner’s racquets.”
1485 "Mark Warner’s, okay. I just want to revisit the going and seeing Kate before we move on.”
Reply "Mm.”
1485 "Alright, and the reason why I’ve kept it separate is because I want you to just think now.”
Reply "Mm.”
1485 "And imagine, remember what you saw.”
Reply "Mm.”
1485 "Did you open the door, slid door? Or was it already open? Or…”
Reply "Err I think it was already open, I think it was already open. Err you know, as I say, I walked up there, Kate was you know I say looking very relaxed and err I say a comment to her I said well crikey it’s early, early for them to be getting ready you know for bed, as I say she said ah no, I’ve had such a good, you know such a good day and afternoon err so you know, and Gerry’s just obviously finishing off playing tennis and err so you know hopefully try and get them down and as I say we were just, you know I, I know, it does sound bizarre but I just looked at the three of them and I couldn’t, you know they were just so well presented and so clean and immaculate it was, you know I was, and you know they just looked such healthy children, err you know, there’s, there’s you know nothing that normally…”
1485 "Yeah.”
00:38:36 Reply "Triggers in my mind like that but it was just how well that they looked and err…”
1485 "Try to remember where in, where they were in the apartment.

Err, I mean the, the time that I was there err you know all, all of them err all the children and Kate were in the, err as soon as you go through the patio doors err you know they were all in the immediate area you know in front of you, err that was the area that they generally, you know when I saw them, so I didn’t, no I didn’t go any further into the apartment, you know it was just a conversation that I like, you know walked into the, you know through the French doors, I went into the lounge err you know the open plan area and err you know just had a brief conversation, you know things started off by as I say, saying about the, how well they looked and you know, it’s early to get them ready for bed and then I said oh Gerry’s, you know just finished over there, we’re going over to play a bit of tennis, err I probably said is there any problems with that and she said ah no, no fine, you know carry on, and err you know perhaps a bit more of a conversation err but you know it, it wasn’t many minutes that I was, was there.”
1485 "Yeah.”
00:39:55 Reply "But err certainly enough time just to see, you know, certainly the apartment, there was nothing that was untoward, that was you know err the children all looked extremely happy, there was no, you know signs of any problems with err you know Kate, you know or indeed the relationship that Kate had got with any of the three children. None of the children had been told off, none of the children looked like they were you know in trouble for anything, you know they were err still all talking and playing around. Err so you know it was just a very err transient you know that I’d gone in there, but as I say it just struck me how well they all looked.”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "And content I suppose is the other word to use.”
1485 "Did you actually go into the apartment?”
Reply "I did.”
1485 "Or did you do the conversation from the door?”
Reply "No, definitely was inside the apartment, you know whether it be two or three steps into the apartment or you know however many, but I was definitely in the apartment.”
00:41:00 1485 "Okay, so now what I’m gonna try and ask you to recollect, what everybody was wearing.”
Reply "I’m afraid that is, you know I’m, I cannot recall at all. I know that’s, you’d think that’d be an obvious thing to remember, I cannot remember. As I say the, from the children point of view predominantly I can remember the, you know, white, but I couldn’t say exactly what they were wearing. Err…”
1485 "But could you remember what Kate was wearing for example?”
Reply "I can’t, no.”
1485 "And did you actually set eyes on each individual child?”
Reply "All three children I saw, yeah.”
1485 "And were they standing up? Sitting down?”
Reply "Err they were generally standing up, yeah.”
1485 "Did they actually acknowledge you?”
Reply "Err oh yeah, you know I’m very sure that if you’d have asked them, you know that evening or the next day they’d all say ah yeah, I popped in. You know I, you know I did know the children very well, we’d all you know, met up many times before err you know I, you know again I’d be playing with Madeleine you know in the, err the play area err you know during that week, you know lifting her up, twizzing her round and everything, I knew her that well, you know, to do that, and as I say err she’d definitely know who I was and certainly, as I say, just to reinforce that she looked very happy.”
1485 "Yeah. Was that the last time you saw Madeleine?”
00:42:39 Reply "It was.”
1485 "How many minutes, you said as a matter of minutes and then you went back and then you played tennis.”
Reply "Mm.”
1485 "I’m gonna pin you down and ask you how long you think you were in there for. I know you say minutes.”
Reply "In their apartment, it, it, I’d say three minutes, five maximum.”
1485 "Three to five?”
Reply "Yeah.”
1485 "So then you step back out, did you leave the doors open or did you close them?”
Reply "Err I couldn’t remember. You know, again, I’ve got the, in my mind that the doors were open when I went in and I probably would have just walked out back that way, you know, it still, I mean it’s still relatively nice outside, it was light and everything so err you know I, I, whether they kept the door open it’s just nice when it’s the end of the evening you know, sorry, you know the end of the afternoon, but if I’m perfectly honest the answer to that question is I can’t remember

Okay. So then you went back and then you played, you played a game for about an hour?”
Reply "Yeah.”
1485 "You think from seven, from about seven till about eight?”
Reply "Yeah, I mean it must, I mean it was before, I mean we got back before eight o’ clock err you know so perhaps just before seven, err sorry, err yeah just before seven so it was just before eight o’ clock. As I say when I got back I think I was cutting it fine and Fiona was still keen to go for a run and we started to get everyone ready for bed.”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "And err so it was, as I say, about an hour but certainly we’d finished before eight o’ clock.”
00:44:18 1485 "Okay, and when you finished, I’m just trying to put this in order here, when you actually, when you finished and you went back to the apartment, did you say anything to Gerry about, about the fact that his family were fine? Or…”
Reply "Yeah, err yeah, I haven’t mentioned this before, but yes, yeah I’d certainly, when we met up I said oh yeah, you know everything’s fine there, you know probably along the lines of you know you’ve got a bit more of a free pass you know you can carry on for a bit longer, Kate’s fine without everyone you know all the children are, are happy, there’s no difficulties with bath time or anything so you know, without actually saying all that just conveying to him that you know I don’t think you need to err rush back, you’ve got a free pass for a bit longer.”
1485 "Alright.”
Reply "Err yeah.”
1485 "So was that as soon as you got back to the, to the tennis courts?”
Reply "Yeah that would have been when we got back.”
1485 "When you got back to the tennis courts as opposed to at the end of the tennis session.”
Reply "Yeah, yeah, yeah.”
1485 "Okay, and was he fine with that?”
Reply "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, again, you know it’s difficult with cameras and everything, you don’t want to sound (inaudible) or anything, but you know he’s a very sorted person, a very caring person and that’s the kind of thing, you know he’s very organised.”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "And you know he will make sure everything’s fine and sorted before you know the, the, he’d carry on and do something for his own benefit if you like. So you know he was certainly one to, he would have wanted to know before you know continuing.”
00:45:45 1485 "Okay. We’ve talked, you’ve talked about you know, you’ve gone back and you’ve got ready and Fiona’s gone for a run.”

Err my recollection was that we were just got, you know we were round there, I thought we’d actually entered into the Tapas bar to just…”
1485 "Actually into the complex?”
Reply "Just, just into the complex, but certainly we hadn’t made it yet to the swimming pool but it was just, just about there.”
1485 "Okay.”
Reply "Err yeah.”
00:46:42 1485 "And what time do you think that was?”
Reply "Err we were, we were just before nine, you know just before nine o’ clock err we yeah we went between quarter to and nine o’ clock.”
1485 "And then you sat down, after the comments of course that you…”
Reply "Yes, yeah.”
1485 "Who was there when you got, when you got to the table?”
Reply "Err well, as I say, Gerry was sat next to me, err on my left, and then there was this choice of where Dianne was gonna sit with err, err Matt and err Russell, so those people had to be there, Kate was obviously there, Fiona had walked down with, as well, and err and as for Rachael and Jane I, I cannot say a hundred percent that they were there.”
1485 "What was Gerry doing when you got there?”
Reply "Err I, again my recollection is we sat down and I just started talking to him, but I’m not sure whether that is entirely correct, whether he was having a conversation with somebody else before and then you know I just started talking but my recollection we started, you know, not far after we’d sat down we just started talking and you know, and I say we were just saying, you know what we’d both done and what a fantastic day that we’d had err you know and I know beyond the call of this interview but you know I’d had a lot of stress you know with work and over the last few years and you know it’s, it’s you know two, two young children it’s not been a particularly easy time and you know and for me that was the first day in many, many a month that I’d really enjoyed it and then Gerry had reciprocated and said we also had one of the best days that we’d had in many, many a month. You know that is my recollection of the first thing that happened on that table, but just, whether its because it was such a positive conversation that we’d had, which override the fact that there was other things that had happened before I wouldn’t like to say but in my mind that was the first thing that had happened.”
1485 "Yeah. So did you notice that he got up to go and check Madeleine, or to check his children?”
00:49:10 Reply "Yeah, I mean I, you know I know the people who left the table but I couldn’t tell you what order they left in and I couldn’t tell you what the time is that they left. You know, people have chatted about it, you know we’ve read about it and I’m not prepared to say well I think this is what happened because I’m sure my view’s been tainted by, you know, what we’ve read and what we’ve seen.”