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| Title: Interview Comments | |
| MadeleineMcCann > GOVERNMENT / POLICE / GONCALO AMARAL > Goncalo Amaral | Go to subcategory： |
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TinLizzy
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Date Posted：06/08/2010 11:18 PMCopy HTML http://mccannfiles.com/id139.html They were left with the feeling that you leave a lot out of the book. And that the book does not contain everything. GA: Something has to be left out. JP: Why? GA: I’m a trained jurist, I’m a jurist, and we don’t say everything, do we. It may be for a second edition of the book, it may be for certain explanations that someone wishes, therefore… it’s my own secret. JP: It’s your own secret. So there is a secret? You haven’t told everything? GA: No, but it’s details, anyway. if it was really a demand for ransom, and we try to negotiate with that individual who was in Holland. JP: That episode is particularly surprising. GA: And then we watch that, us Portuguese who were there... JP: ... and the English... GA: ... and the English, we watched it in stupefaction, he was sitting there with a lollipop laughing on the phone and we were all waiting... JP: We’re talking about Gerry McCann, at the moment when, because someone did try a coup like that, correct? So while you were waiting for him to make contact with you… GA: … maybe it was his way of reacting to that tension, maybe it’s justifiable but to us, we were shocked, it’s not. We were searching for his daughter, doing our job. JP: While he visited sites on the internet... GA: No, he was on the phone. JP: Ah he was on the phone and sucking on a lollipop wasn’t it and laughing and chatting? GA: Yes! Completely detached from what was going on and about to happen… JP: So that shocked you in particular? GA: Me and the colleagues who were present. GA: In fact there is another situation with Mathew Oldfield who says he went inside the apartment and states that he saw two windows, and his wife says that moments before that, minutes earlier, he had listened at the two bedroom windows, so that detail of the two windows, which seems to be a mistake but it’s not quite so, therefore, if they had been in the bedroom they would know that there was only one window in the bedroom, even outside of the bedroom if they had been listening it would only be one window as well, therefore there is only one window. I was really very surprised over that behaviour from Gerry McCann at the moment when the possibility of his daughter’s ransom is being discussed, which was obviously fictitious, but his behaviour relating to it and some observations that you make concerning Kate McCann. Namely a certain irritation and ill humour under several circumstances. Can you define who is Kate McCann? GA: It is difficult to define, isn’t it. She almost cried in front of us, and then she lowered her head and when she returned she came back more aggressive, more – JP: But within the couple she is the more combative, the more controlling person. GA: I didn’t want to take that route in terms of rendering things subjective but… JP: I noticed that. GA: … but that is how it was. It was a bit, there was something not right there, but maybe a psychiatrist or someone could analyze the behaviour. JP: So your opinion is that an accidental death took place in that apartment. GA: It is not my opinion. It’s the opinion of the investigation. This has to be made very clear. I have repeated this several times but it’s important. JP: You are absolutely right, so according to the investigation… GA: According to the investigation that was composed of English, Portuguese investigators… JP: Exactly. The little girl died in that apartment? GA: The little girl died in that apartment. JP: On the evening of the 3rd of May. GA: And we reached that conclusion with the data that we have. PR: A while ago, you mentioned an English policeman, a great expert, I suppose you were referring to Mark Harrison who is one of the two or three best British policemen in terms of investigating complex crimes. He was here, he spent a week in Praia da Luz, he rummaged through Praia da Luz, he walked everywhere, the saw the process upside down, he read the entire process, and then he wrote a report in which he concludes that the most likely hypothesis is the child’s death, and if I’m correct, he proposes the dogs’ coming, right? GA: Exactly. PR: Was he the policeman who also retired, a reference that you made during a press conference? That there was an English policeman who retired. GA: No. PR: Was there an English policeman who also retired? GA: The English policeman who retired is from the Leicester police. Now the reasons I would prefer not to talk about him at the moment. As a matter of fact I’d like to talk to him personally and I don’t want him to be pressured so I would reserve myself the right not to comment any further. PR: Just to make this very clear, is that English policeman, Mark Harrison… GA: No, no, no. PR: … who comes here, writes a report, no, I’m not talking about the retirement issue, I’m just saying that he came here, that he is an expert in complex crime, one of the most prestigious from the English police, he walks the streets of Praia da Luz from one end to another, he measures, routes, timings, he analyses the process and after that he writes a report in his quality as one of the finest English experts, where he writes black on white that the most likely possibility is that the child died in the apartment, is that correct? GA: Correct. PR: That is what marks the turn in the investigations. GA: Correct. PR: And then the famous dogs arrive… GA: Yes, to detect cadaver and human blood odour. JP: So you don’t want to tell why your colleague retired. He has his own reasons. But you are aware that all of this thickens the public’s perception of a Machiavellian conspiracy theory. I understand your position, maybe at the moment you don’t want to say more or you can’t, it’s a fact that your book has brought us something more but we still fail to understand everything. Mainly, possibly the macro-structure that surrounds all of this. PR: At a given moment in time, around the 9th or 10th of May, starts what you mention in your book, a wave of sightings of Madeleine. Madeleine is first seen in Morocco, by a… GA: First she is seen here in Portugal. The wave starts to spread in Portugal. PR: Exactly. Portugal and then – GA: Then she is seen in the North, then jumps to South America, Brazil… PR: One that was largely publicised by the English newspapers, was from a Norwegian lady who was spending holidays in Morocco and who swears that she saw the little girl. What the English press does not mention at that time is that the lady is Norwegian but she is married to a man who was born and bred in Rothley, the town where the… JP: It could be a tremendous coincidence. PR: … the McCanns resided for the last few years. This is the question that I ask you: The wave of sightings, namely in Morocco, where witnesses state that they are 100% certain that it was the child, I have no doubts. Beyond the usual confirmation with Interpol, Interpol and the police forces in those countries were requested to investigate those sightings and those witnesses. GA: The witnesses, it was necessary to hear those witnesses and she lives in Southern Spain. She lives near Valencia. That is one of the diligences that possibly remained to carry out. But concerning those sightings in Morocco, it was through the cooperation with the English police, with liaison officers with the Moroccan police that tried to obtain the video tapes from that petrol station where the little girl was seen, in order to try to find out if it could actually be her or not. It was all handled from there. JP: And you don’t value the fact that really the lady who saw is married to someone who coincidentally is… GA: That was actually taken into account and it happened later, as Paulo Reis said, and as a matter of fact it’s something that should have been worked upon in terms of being heard. GA: The reports from the English labs… the English reports arrive shortly before the questionings that were scheduled. And it contained certain conclusions, if they thought they were inconclusive they shouldn’t have mentioned it, the question of the 15 alleles in a profile of 19 from the little girl, stating that they match Madeleine McCann, but they also say that it could have been a construction let’s say from various donors, from other persons, a contamination could have produced Madeleine McCann’s profile by coincidence. But there are no excuses for saying that it is not from Madeleine McCann because they held the profiles of the father, the mother, the siblings, therefore there are no doubts that at least within that family they only matched Madeleine McCann’s. DL: In Portugal, for example, we only need a match of 15 alleles out of 19 in order to determine someone’s paternity, therefore… That is the first fact. The second fact is that at this moment, the institute for Forensic Medicine is already prepared, they already own the same equipment as the FSS in England to carry out this type of analysis. Why does the Public Ministry or the Polícia Judiciária not request, or don’t they have any more samples to carry out… GA: As far as we know, they have all been destroyed by now, namely the hair. Nothing can be done. PR: Concerning the FSS reports – GA: And the samples were microscopic, weren’t they… PR: Are you absolutely certain that the reports that reached you, namely those concerning the blood residues in the car boot, are exactly the reports that left the FSS? GA: I have no doubts whatsoever, in fact, they were delivered by a senior official from Leicester police, it carries a logo, they came and went by email, so there is an existing origin, therefore the report is signed, so I have no doubts about that. JP: You have no doubts whatsoever about that. GA: On the official document. JP: But wasn’t it published in Belgium that… DL: … that there are two reports. There is one report that left the FSS and there is a second slightly different report that arrived in Portugal. GA: There is a recent report and there are two other reports. The first one mentions 15 alleles and here is the main question, it places the focus, they place the focus on that part of the exam from the vehicle, in the second [report] they then focus on the apartment, if on one side 15 alleles were not enough, in the other there were only 5 alleles that matched Madeleine McCann’s genetic profile, what could be read there was that there were almost no problems. Because it’s easily justifiable. It may not be justifiable with the cadaver odour on the spot where the blood sample was collected, but therefore, inside the house it is easy to justify, it’s more difficult with a car that was rented more than twenty days later. So this is where the major confusion lies. JP: That’s true, that’s true. In your opinion, Maddie, in the opinion of the investigation and of your colleagues and the team that you coordinated, did Maddie die that evening? GA: She died. JP: And someone took her from that apartment and placed her where? GA: Look, when we are in an investigation of this kind we have to understand what the knowledge of those persons is, if they know other people, what contacts they have. If they have means at their disposal. We have to know the area itself, to know about the facility or the almost material impossibility to conceal the corpse within few hours and few minutes. And the conclusion that we reach with all of this, with all of this data is that, if there was any involvement from those nine persons, the corpse could only be in the beach area. And that is in fact where the gentleman… JP: The investigator. GA: Not the investigator, the Irish witnesses… JP: Ah yes! GA: … see a person passing, a man carrying a child, a little girl, they say that it is in effect Madeleine going towards the South area, let’s put it that way, towards the sea side. Now whether or not she stayed there, that is another question. For how long she stayed there, what happens next, only the development of the investigation of that area of death, let’s put it that way, could take us there. JP: Would you have followed that investigation line? GA: It was the direction that I was following at that time so until we emptied it we weren’t stopping, were we… JP: It sounds so unbelievable, the possibility that a body was placed on a cliff, or in any other area on the beach, and then removed and transported in a rental car. GA: The corpse couldn’t have remained there all the time. It’s impossible. JP: So where was it taken next? GA: If we take into account that, if we consider the traces that were found in the car boot… JP: … which are in fact… GA: … which are in fact from the little girl. In order to justify that bodily fluid as the lab says, it could only have been preserved and conserved in the cold because otherwise it would have been… JP: That means that… GA: … in an advanced state of decomposition, at least it’s a hypothesis. Therefore it’s a question of a deep freezer, or something similar, and there we had to search for it and that was what we were doing. This means, the contacts that they had, where they went, where they were seen… There are people who say that they were seen entering an apartment block near the cemetery in Praia da Luz. At that point in time we weren’t able to detect which apartment they entered, who lived there, because it’s also a bit complicated because you have to understand it’s a tourist area and often it’s not known who the apartment belongs to. JP: Of course, of course… GA: Who lives there, for how long they live there, so all of that was being worked upon. To try to understand the support… JP: If someone discovered a deep freezer in the area and… GA: If it was actually a deep freezer, it doesn’t exist anymore now. JP: Is that still possible to find out? I imagine… GA: Look, a few years ago on the Azores, after a homicide that had taken place years earlier, we managed to locate a vehicle that was already in a junk yard in which a taxi driver had been killed, a taxi driver from Praia da Vitória in the Azores. But we were unlucky, normally the van’s back had a carpet but it didn’t exist anymore. That carpet didn’t exist anymore, so if we had found that carpet it would have been possible to prove that the death had taken place there, so anything is possible. We should have continued investigating the parents in order to either charge them or rule them out as suspects. If I represented this couple, I would have insisted that police investigations continue. Not everything we do is to incriminate a suspect. Often a phone will be tapped in order to obtain information that will clear a suspect. What credibility does dog tracking have in police investigations? In England it has much legal value, as in the States, but not in Portugal. Its credibility has been undervalued, it has been said that dogs obey the trainer's voice. But they found cadaver odour and human blood that coincided with Madeleine's blood and although it was not admitted as material evidence, it did serve as information for the police. how can they step backwards and say that she died? It is not a case of coldness but of survival. Q: Do you believe that we will know what happened to Maddie one day? Will we get to know the truth? Yes. There were 9 people in this Holiday Group. Maybe they do not know that the girl is dead, but they could have received instructions about what to say, such as "you went to the room and you saw the girl", however they know that this is not true. By that means the case could be re-opened; one day the full truth could be known. Also on 5th May 2007, two days after the announcement of Madeleine's disappearance, the police, according to Amaral, would commit an important error: "We were busy checking all the traces that came with the Ambassador. Traces that were moreover, found to be false". New instructions from the regional national directorate of the PJ, given after the intervention of two British diplomats – Ambassador John Buck and Consul Bill Henderson – turned the investigator's attention away from the McCanns. Kate and Gerry McCann, for the first and only time, went to hand in clothes to be washed in the Complex laundry, including Madeleine's clothes, which the inspectors only heard about two days later. Too late, according to Amaral. "At the time we had not established exactly which clothes Gerry was wearing on the night of the disappearance nor which clothes were handed in to be washed on 5th May", says Gonçalo Amaral. It was by means of the statements by various members of staff from the complex, linked to the laundry service, that the inspectors were to learn that the McCanns had their children's clothes - those of Madeleine and also those of Sean and Amélie - washed.
"That would never have happened without the intervention of Mark Warner and, in particular, of the Ambassador. They took advantage of the space we gave them, It was a mistake on our part", admits Gonçalo Amaral. "Last Saturday (05/05/2007) I received a bag of clothes brought in by Mark Warner staff, and was told expressly that these belonged to Madeleine's family – there was adult clothing (male and female) and children's clothing... ", states one of the laundry workers.
Although the laundry worker only remembers a pink skirt belonging to Madeleine, she has no uncertainty in confirming that there were also other clothes belonging to the small British girl, which has also been confirmed to the police by other colleagues. According to you, what happened on May 3, 2007?
Madeleine McCann died from accidentally falling behind the sofa in the living room of the apartment. That couch had been moved during the alleged disappearance. I think that someone discovered the body, concealed it, cleaned everything and pushed the sofa to the window.
Who? The parents of Madeleine. all have stated that they were carrying out regular checks, but the day could come when they retract their statements and say that somebody asked them to say this. He says that more than one person can still give information, said that even within the group of 9 people there still exists the possibility that anyone of them can talk about something that could reopen the case file The police should have been able to analyze the clothes Madeleine wore when she left from the creche to see if there was any sign of violence on them. That is something normal in any investigation. In this case it seems they had changed her clothing, since they said that she was wearing her pyjamas. He would like to know where those clothes are. He says he made the mistake of treating them too soft-handedly, that they felt pressurised regarding this theme, as well as to the taping of telephone calls. He says that the Holy See kept information about Madeleine on their website until a few days before the McCann's were made arguidos, he said that they were the first to withdraw the information from their Web site. Payne having strange behaviour during a trip to Mallorca, but this information was not sent to the Portuguese police until October 26. Nothing has been done to neither check this witness statement by the British police nor by the Portuguese police. Therefore this investigation could yield new data that would re-open the case. It should be taken into account that, according to his statement, he was said to be the last person to have seen Madeleine (about 19h00). Payne was also identified as the person who was with McCanns the following morning when an employee of the British Social Services turned up at the apartment to offer her help (Mr. Amaral clarifies that she is a person with 25 years of experience) and claims that she was kept away from the couple on the advice of Payne. She says she knows David Payne from other cases she worked on in the past. Mr. Amaral says this should have been investigated in England as well as in Portugal. Reme: Is there any chance that the investigation may be re-opened soon? G.A.: Yes. The case is not closed and can be re-opened if there are relevant data. You can see from the police file that has been handed to reporters that there are still some procedures that have not been carried out. For example there is information that can't be said whether it is new or old. The witnesses, there were several inconsistencies between their statements. Those that had dinner with the McCanns that night, their friends, invented the system of monitoring of the children. Why? There are many details that lead one to think about the culpability of the parents. There are two different lists about the monitoring system. there is the window where we found Kate's finger prints, the mother of the girl. She said that she had never touched that window, and the cleaning lady assured that she had cleaned it on the previous day. And above all she said that the window was open when it was closed, it doesn't add up. Q - Would it be possible that the mother or the father closed the window later, when returning to the room to search for the girl? A - There are three people who say that they walked in front of the apartment and saw the window closed. They did not state that it was open? Which left? And there are other things. The mother says that she entered the room and the windows were open and the shutters were raised. No one else saw that. They simulated an abduction. They wanted us to say that someone entered the apartment with the intention of theft and when they saw the girl they killed her. Q - What do you think could have happened that night? A - Both the British and Portuguese police, and even the prosecutor, who has already changed his mind, thought the same. We talked about death by others, not murder. In the room, blood and cadaver odour was found just below a window where a sofa was. The father was talking to a friend just outside that window for a while. The girl was not a heavy sleeper, that's what the parents said. Perhaps she heard her father and climbed to the sofa below the window. But the parents, for the girl not to go out, moved it away from the wall. Madeleine could have fallen. Q - The girl falls from the sofa, dies with the blow and the parents find her. A - The mother. It is the mother who finds the girl dead. Q - But I am trying to think out an idea. How can a mother who has just found her daughter dead on the floor decide to hide the corpse? And how do you hide the corpse of a girl of nearly four years old so that no one can find it? A – This is what we were investigating when I was dismissed from the case. I want to recall that there is an Irish man who claimed to have seen Gerry McCann with a girl in his arms, on his way towards the beach that same night. That testimony has been hidden. The dogs specialised in finding traces of blood and odour of cadaver, found both on the wall of the apartment and in the boot of the car that the McCanns rented 23 days later. Q - Did Gerry McCann bury his dead daughter on the beach and then unearth her and put her in the boot 23 days later? A - We do not know. The Irish [witness] that I have told you about saw Gerry on television with a child in his arms arriving in the UK and stated that it was the same image they had seen back in May in Portugal. That man spent two days without sleeping when he realised what he had discovered, but nobody has talked about them. And what one of the Irish has said is logical, a man with a child in his arms toward the beach. Q - But this implies that the whole group, the nine people who ate dinner that night, had agreed to lie. A - All of them. Because, if you do not know, the British law regarding negligence and child welfare is very strict. They left their children alone in the apartments. In the UK, if you leave a child alone for half an hour, you lose custody. After Madeleine's death, if it had been made public that it was an accident, everyone could have lost custody. A - Yes, of course they had time. Some say that Gerry had a strange behaviour at the table. Q – Did they? A – They said that he spoke too much, gesticulated a lot, quite the opposite from the previous days. For me this is a very real hypothesis. Q - You have a long career as an investigator, years in which you have faced criminals and innocents. What do you see when facing the McCanns? A - They are two persons with much fear. I do not know if they fear to be discovered or fear the police of an unknown country. Q – It was said that Kate was very cold. But I've seen her cry. A - So did I. She is not cold. There was a moment, in a meeting with them, when we set out the sofa theory. Kate put her head down, looking distant, and, after a few seconds, she looked up again as if nothing had happened. She looked like she was escaping from the role that she was interpreting. Q - When you raised the hypothesis that the girl might have died after falling off the sofa, did Kate McCann answer? A - She did not answer, she just dropped her head for a moment, as if she was about to faint. She had an emotional collapse that lasted just a moment. Q - And Gerry McCann? A – He is a very strong person, dominant. He's a surgeon, a man capable of making decisions very quickly. That was good for him to be able to decide over Madeleine. If you have to hide the body, you must decide quickly. And it could only be hidden on the beach, and you have to take her on foot. This is where the statements from the Irish witness is important, the one that no one has taken into account. Q - What is your opinion? A - To me, Gerry hid Madeleine's body on the beach. And after a few days he moved her with his car. We work following this lead. Trying to find out the date of the switch, some details, but we were on the way. The Irish [witness] was about to arrive in Portugal, but everything was delayed too much, he even received external pressures. In the end, he didn't testify for the Police. Q – They [McCanns] have appeared in all the media to announce the disappearance of their daughter and if it ends up that they have done it, what are they, psychopaths? A – No, they are human. If the McCanns admit that their daughter is dead, they can no longer collect money from the Maddie fund, and that's a lot of money, over one million pounds. That's why they say that the girl was abducted. Q - What if they do not want to lose hope? It all seems very morbid. A - It is. If they admit that she is dead they will lose their style of life. They are human, not psychopaths. Q - You said that the girl was frozen. A - For there to be vestiges in the boot of the car rented 23 days later, they must have preserved the corpse in some way. I believe that when they put it in the boot, with the heat of those days in the Algarve, a similar situation happened with that of shopping bags, which melt, and then the water is transferred to the car. Q – Couldn't the traces be transferred from the room to the parents clothes and after to the car? A - But if you have blood on your clothes it is because you've seen it. And the blood that the dogs found was washed blood, it was remains not clear spots. Q - Neither you nor Alípio Ribeiro (former director of the Judicial Police), nor Olegário Souza (former police spokesman), are still on their posts. You have even pre-retired. A - There were too many pressures. The McCanns have many contacts and nobody was interested in knowing the truth. Q - Is it the British Empire against Portugal? A - Yes, it seems so. – It is very complicated. Q - Why? A - Let us return to the people who passed in front of the apartment. Nobody saw anything strange. We investigated all the people who were involved in theft in the area. There were no unknown fingerprints in the apartment, of course they could have used gloves, that is true, but that could not be. In addition, the parents were the first to talk about death. And it is normal to think that their daughter could have died, but they have never admitted this in public. But I do not believe that the parents killed her. Q - So, what are we talking about? A - About an accident. The child could have fallen from a sofa, could have had an accident with Calpol (a sleeping pill (sic: solution)). We never had access to the girl's medical history, so we don't know whether she was healthy or not. We can only speculate. There are many very strange details. Q - What do you think could have happened that night? A - Both the British and Portuguese police, and even the prosecutor, who has already changed his mind, thought the same. We talked about death by others, not murder. In the room, blood and cadaver odour was found just below a window where a sofa was. The father was talking to a friend just outside that window for a while. The girl was not a heavy sleeper, that's what the parents said. Perhaps she heard her father and climbed to the sofa below the window. But the parents, for the girl not to go out, moved it away from the wall. Madeleine could have fallen. Q - The girl falls from the sofa, dies with the blow and the parents find her. A - The mother. It is the mother who finds the girl dead. Q - But I am trying to think out an idea. How can a mother who has just found her daughter dead on the floor decide to hide the corpse? And how do you hide the corpse of a girl of nearly four years old so that no one can find it? A – This is what we were investigating when I was dismissed from the case. I want to recall that there is an Irish man who claimed to have seen Gerry McCann with a girl in his arms, on his way towards the beach that same night. That testimony has been hidden. The dogs specialised in finding traces of blood and odour of cadaver, found both on the wall of the apartment and in the boot of the car that the McCanns rented 23 days later. Q - Did Gerry McCann bury his dead daughter on the beach and then unearth her and put her in the boot 23 days later? A - We do not know. The Irish [witness] that I have told you about saw Gerry on television with a child in his arms arriving in the UK and stated that it was the same image they had seen back in May in Portugal. That man spent two days without sleeping when he realised what he had discovered, but nobody has talked about them. And what one of the Irish has said is logical, a man with a child in his arms toward the beach. Q - But this implies that the whole group, the nine people who ate dinner that night, had agreed to lie. A - All of them. Because, if you do not know, the British law regarding negligence and child welfare is very strict. They left their children alone in the apartments. In the UK, if you leave a child alone for half an hour, you lose custody. After Madeleine's death, if it had been made public that it was an accident, everyone could have lost custody. "The sightings are marketing". And what are those indicia that you understand as sufficient? G.A. – The atypical behaviour of the parents: The fact that the lady says that she had three children sleeping in one room, that she arrives and one is missing, the window is open, she mentions it's a cold night, the shutter is up… and she goes away, leaving two children asleep, with a possible abductor around. I know that [the reports from the PJ and from the Public Ministry] didn't give any relevance to the contradictions and didn't expose the falsehoods and the false testimonies that exist there from all the persons who intervened. That, deep down, is the evidence that indicates that everyone is lying and those lies cannot be understood. Focus – And who took the child from her bed? G.A. – That is the question that we were investigating on the 2nd of October 2007, when I left. From that moment on, little investigation was carried out in that apartment. Focus – But why "accidental"? G.A. - I don't say it's accidental. Up to that moment, we could only reach an accidental death, because we had not worked on the rest yet. We had yet to understand what had happened there. Cadaver odour and blood from the child appear next to the sofa. Death has presumably taken place there. There are no doubts that it is a death and that it took place on that spot. We are not going to say that the mother did this or that, that would really be speculating, the only hypothesis is the accidental death. In the continuation of the investigations is where we could go further or not. Focus – You said that the mother can't be accused of having done this or that… How far can you deduct? G.A. – As far as we could deduct on the 2nd of October. I believe, and so did my colleagues in the investigation, that if we had continued into the same direction of the investigation, we might eventually have gone further. We might even have reached a point where we dismissed any suspicion concerning the parents. Investigations that only go half the way is what leaves things as they are now. Focus – Are Madeleine McCanns' parents responsible for their daughter's death? G.A. – No. There is a neglect in the guard [of the children]. There are no doubts that those children were not safe, because if they were, one of them wouldn't have disappeared. Now, saying that "the responsibility of the death belongs to…" We had to understand, to collect data about what happened from there on. The reconstruction is essential. I did not understand, but I accepted the decision from a hierarchical team that I was part of, why the reconstruction was not done right away. The possibility of trying to make a new reconstruction was opened, but the arguidos had already left Portugal. A thing like this is only done with arguidos. The ideal is to have everyone, but even only with the couple, that were arguidos at that point in time, the reconstruction could have been carried out. Focus – You suggest that the little girl was frozen or conserved in the cold. How do you reach that? G.A. – There is a bodily fluid, inside a car boot, above an "embaladeira" [note: metallic piece of the car that reinforces the lower part of the doors], from a child that presumably died on the 3rd of May. The car was rented 20 days later and was even new. It had been rented two or three times. Taking into consideration the circumstances of the climate, the temperature, the decomposition of a body… A body, in order to leak a fluid in that manner, a body with more than a month of decomposition had to be preserved. Focus – You state that you have not told everything that you know. G.A. – And I haven't. Focus – Why? G.A. – Because I am a jurist, too. Let's see how the situation evolves. Focus – But you did start with the abduction hypothesis. G.A. – If you look closely, right in my first document, the process mentions "abduction" followed by two question marks. Focus – Then, you were thrown out… G.A. - … that is a good expression… G.A. – I don't drink whiskey. I drink beer at lunch time, if they had written that, they would have been right. And when I left, I was naturally closer to the truth. Two examples: Apart from our need to know who the friends of the McCann couple were, or if they knew anyone in Portugal, or who drove the car… if they eventually visited another apartment, if they used to meet someone, if they deposited someone… just for us to understand. Towards the end, I was informed that they had visited people at a villa in Praia da Luz. We went to check it out. Then, we were informed that the McCanns had visited an apartment block near the cemetery. And we were working on that, in order to confirm whether it was them or not. This was how we were trying to understand where the body was. And there are many persons who were not investigated, who were not in the process. That Maddie's mother is the only person who says that the window was open. When she calls to the other members of the group, she goes out leaving her twins, exposing them once again, to danger. Further proof is Kate's finger prints that describe the movement when she opened the windows – we know that the window was cleaned the previous day -. However, Kate says she never opened the window. And most importantly, there were no signs of breaking in. There were never any motives to question the Catholic church. There is no indice that points towards the child being there, at least up to the moment when she was transported in the car. Even because there are no freezers there, or cold spots that would allow for the body to be kept at that location. Was no cadaver odour or other indicia ever found on the father's clothes? (identified reader) No. We don't know what he was wearing on the night of the disappearance. If it was him who was seen carrying the child, those clothes may even not exist anymore. He went to London and he might have washed it. As a matter of fact, we never knew what anyone of the group was wearing on the evening of the facts. Don't you regret that you did not go to the location [on the night of the events]? There are several ways to coordinate. And one of them is over the phone. No, I have no regrets. Don't you think that the result might have been different? It is possible. At least there would have been someone, and I have a good memory, who would remember how they were dressed that evening. according to what I have heard, the Irish family to be contacted and the target of coercion. Several people went there and they were not from the police. He even had to get himself a lawyer to try to get things into order. Before the police arrived to hear them, several persons had tried to speak to them. And they were not the only ones. nobody knows for sure at what time the things happened. The reconstruction was not made, therefore it is impossible to know for certain. The employees do not state that Gerry McCann was in the restaurant. They only say that people were sitting down and getting up from the table. "Since the day I left I knew the process would be archived" Paulo Rebelo, his successor, never contacted him to talk about the case. Have you agreed with the decision of the former director of the PJ, who removed you from the case? No. It's an unfair and dangerous decision. I was not removed from the investigation due to incompetence. I left because of the direction that the investigation was taking. But the strategy was not decided by me only. It was everyone. It involved the English police and other Portuguese policemen. And what was being investigated, was the little girl's death, even an accidental one. Do you believe that Madeleine McCann died in the apartment on the evening of the 3rd of May? Yes. That is what I and other persons believe in. And this is not because we idealised it that way. Was the investigation's direction, homicide, disturbing the political power? This case was more political than a police case. Did any politician pressure you? I was not pressured, I was removed. If there was a homicide, where is the body? That was what we were going to establish next. On the day that I was removed, I was carrying out diligences for a fundamental witness to come to Portugal. It was necessary for the PJ to pay for the trip, to arrange for lodging, and that was being taken care of. But then the important witness never came to Portugal and was never heard. But why? Why was an exception opened? The English police was used by the McCanns to send the PJ information that often was nothing but noise? Yes. And the fact that the couple had a press advisor, is a figure that is not even foreseen in the penal process code. In some way, we were all influenced by the campaign that was built, which said that the child is alive and must be found. I don't say that the English police was being ordered around by the McCanns, but it was influenced, like we all were. The PJ should have found a way to protect the investigators from everything else. That is strange: you say that it was established with the English police that the direction that should be followed was the little girl’s death, that there were enough indices, but there seems to have been an inflexion. Yes. And I was removed. I don't know whether there is a direct connection. I know that colleagues from the investigation have requested the police's directory for a syndication, to see whether the work was badly done. Whether mistakes were made. Do you believe that you reached the truth? I am convinced that we were on the right path and that we might end up knowing everything or not, but a great part. Now, that which we have collected and which we consider to be indices, may not be valued in the same manner. Did the theory of the death of the child continue to be followed after your exit? I don't know. I can say that ever since that day I knew the process would be archived. Who made the decision to constitute the McCann’s arguidos? Everyone. And the national director was informed of all the decisions. Alípio Ribeiro agreed with the decision? Exactly. But then he ended up saying that the decision was hasty. Hasty? Four months later? When there were concrete diligences that reinforced some of the indications? While we waited for results of various tests? And beyond that, in our law there exists the principal of no self-incrimination. A person can't continue speaking forever as a witness and providing evidence ("indications"). There is certainly a stigma in the arguido status, but I don't know what is worse. They were made arguidos, this was public, for simulating a crime and hiding a cadaver. Do you think that you made any mistakes? I made one. The error of the first hour. There are things about which I still cannot speak. But we know that there are things which could have been done in another way. No one should be shocked if we begin, immediately, to wonder if the parents were involved. After leaving the investigation, did you ever speak with your successor, Paulo Rebelo? No. It is an interesting question to consider. If they removed me for the barbarity of speaking to the press, and not for incompetence, it would be normal to be consulted. But this never happened. Archival is not a declaration of innocence. A process can be archived and reopened. The archival of this case could be the declaration of some incapacity of the police, or it could have a different meaning. Gonçalo Amaral - I do have that conviction. It is an interpretation in the light of the Law based in concrete elements, with the knowledge that I have of the inquest and of the diligences done. Yes, I am convinced that she died there. There was an understanding between the Portuguese and British authorities that the girl was dead and that there was a need to solidify the evidences that existed and move forward to try to understand where she could be. Gonçalo Amaral revealed that the "statement" he gave to Diarios de Noticias – and was the reason for his removal, according to the PJ director – was not correctly reproduced and it was not a statement to a newspaper, but just an informal talk with a journalist from Faro, "very close to the family, a friend of my wife", who called him to ask about the email sent to the web site of Prince Charles, denouncing a former employee of Ocean Club as the kidnapper. "What I said, talking not to a journalist, but with a friend, a personal talk, was that Police should concentrate in what was the common conclusion of British and Portuguese Police: the child was dead and it was necessary to consolidate the existing evidence and move forward, to find where she could be and what happened." At that moment, the kidnapping line of inquiry was "already closed", and "another door was opened", Mr. Amaral said. When asked about the existence of political interference in the investigation, is answer was short and clear: "I think there was more politics than police." The evidence that we had gathered by the time I left the case pointed to the girl being dead and having died inside the apartment. I don't know what happened next The little girl died in the apartment. Everything is in the book, which is faithful to the investigation until September: it reflects the understanding of the Portuguese and the English police and of the Public Ministry. For all of us, until then, the concealment of the cadaver, the simulation of abduction and the exposure or abandonment were proved. Jane Tanner is not credible: she identifies and recognizes different people What about Maddie's bed? It carries no signs that anyone was in it. Nor does the chair or the bed under the window. And there are no imprints from strangers. The reconstruction is missing. It was not carried out 10 or 15 days after the facts, because the resort was full of tourists. We trusted that it could be carried out at a later date. It couldn't. Did you request data about the group? At 8 a.m. on the 4th, the request was made to the English liaison officer, but [the data] never arrived. What did you want to know? Who the people are, their antecedents. And the child, whether or not there are complaints against the parents or others. How she behaved in school, to find out if she was the target of abuse. On the days before I left Portimão we were taking care of that trip to Portugal. Then, the hearing of that witness was requested through a liaison officer from the Irish police in Madrid, which took months. During that time, the witness was approached by persons that are connected to the McCanns' staff, I don’t know with what intention. They felt pressured. Where and how could they have hidden the body for over twenty days? That was what we were trying to find out. Searching within their friends, because the couple had a lot of acquaintances. We tried to understand where the little girl could have been during those twenty something days. There was information that the couple had been seen walking towards a certain apartment block, we were trying to understand which apartment it was. Who had access to that apartment. But everything stopped. How do you interpret that stopping of everything, when you left? It almost looks as if the investigation was syndicated. a brother-in-law and a cousin of Kate said that they had carried steaks in the trunk that had thawed, even garbage, but no. The dogs follow neither garbage smell nor non-human blood. Then there is a witness, that was never heard, a jurist that lived next to the couple, in the second house [villa] outside of the apartment, saying that the car trunk was left open during the night, for airing. At the time when the Irish tourist reportedly saw Gerry, there are various witness statements that place the child’s father at the Ocean Club. They are not credible. The employees are unable to tell at what time the persons were there, for how long each one of them stayed away when they say they went to the apartments. And the group is not credible. They say that on the previous nights, every 30 minutes, each one of them went to check only on his own children; but on that night, between 9.30 and 10 p.m., someone curiously goes to check that apartment, almost every five minutes, leaving the rest unchecked. You admitted the possibility that the children had been given sedatives. The twins, with the lights on, with the lights off, with a crowd of people going in and out, slept until 2 a.m., when they were carried into another apartment. Even then, they continued to sleep. That sleep is not normal. But the Judiciária did nothing. Once again, we were inhibited. We thought about asking the parents to test their hair, in order to understand whether there were sedatives, but as soon as it was found out, it would be said that we were suspecting the parents, and it was being avoided at all costs that it became public that those suspicions existed. The speculation is done by the scientist who performs the test. He starts out by saying, in his preliminary report, that it was easy to say that it was Maddie. Then he raised other questions. Of course nobody can be accused, based on that data alone. Everything indicated that the body, after having been at a certain location, was moved into another location by car, twenty something days later. With the residues that were found inside the car, the little girl had to have been transported inside it. How can you state that? Due to the type of fluid, we policemen, experts, say that the cadaver was frozen or preserved in the cold and when placed into the car boot, with the heat at that time [of the year], part of the ice melted. On a curb, for example, something fell from the trunk's right side, above the wheel. It may be said that this is speculation, but it's the only way to explain what happened there. If the body was hidden in the beach area first, was it always out of reach for the searches? The beach was searched at a time when it is not known whether the body was still there. Using dogs, but sniffer dogs have limitations, like the salted water, for example. Later on, it may have been removed. Did you feel political pressure during the investigation? G.A. – Inhibition. One of the mistakes was that we did not advance on this group with everything that legally was within our reach: Tapping, surveillance. It was necessary, for example, to recover the clothes that the little girl was wearing when she left the crèche to go home. There, we thought: if we go, it will immediately be said that we suspect the parents. That inhibition happened throughout time. How does the pressure appear? Right on the morning of the 4th of May, with a consul calling the embassy and saying that the PJ wasn't doing anything. Then an ambassador. Next, an advisor and the English prime minister. When do testimonies concerning David Payne's behaviour indicating sexual practices with minors arrive? Gonçalo Amaral – In May. Something went wrong with that group during a holiday: David Payne made revealing gestures concerning behaviour towards children. Even towards Maddie. We asked for information but it arrived after the 26th of October. They sent the information without giving it any importance. What exactly did arrive? A couple of doctors spent holidays in Mallorca, in 2005, with David Payne, the McCanns and another couple. The lady says she saw Payne with his finger in his mouth, making a movement in and out, while rubbing his nipple with the other hand. And he was talking about Maddie, next to her father. Those statements should have been given a different treatment by the police. It was relevant to access the information, about doctors, who are just as credible as anyone else. The pressures were immediately felt in the morning following the disappearance of the girl. The British consul in the Algarve went to the Judiciary Police to find out about the investigation, which is not abnormal. Shortly afterwards, it was the turn of the ambassador to go there. It is not a normal proceeding with all the English subjects. But were you prevented from advancing with the diligences that had been planned? To me no one told me "do not do it". If that had happened the "broth would pour over" [Portuguese idiomatic expression meaning it would be over the top]. There my participation in that investigation would have ended. But we felt constrained. In what way? Notice. Soon after the visit of the ambassador, an announcement goes out referring the thesis of abduction. Was it the ambassador who pressurised the PJ? It was not that what I said. The pressure was felt in the team of investigators. When, in the heart of the group, if it was discussed the realisation of a determined diligence there was always someone who would say "Oh, oh, we have to be careful". Who? I am not going say names. We felt it was necessary to treat them with ‘tweezers’. I recognise what we were mistaken. What remained to be done? Too much. The first version of the rogatory letter, which was changed after my expulsion on 2 October, had several steps that were simply struck out. It was requested that the British dogs be used to search the house of the McCanns in Leicester and also those of their friends and that they smelled their clothes. It also asked to verify the existence of a chart on the refrigerator of the girl's parents, which showed that she had problems with sleep and used to rise several times at night. The chart is referred to by an English police officer. New interviews with the arguidos were proposed but were never done. The charter was amended by the prosecutors. I can see that there are situations that were unclear. There is a testimony from a couple of British doctors who say that in September 2005, when holidaying with the McCanns in Majorca and other couples, they became aware of behaviours that are not normal for them and that they related to this gentleman. The couple went to British police as soon as they saw them on television and the evidence only came to Portugal on 26 October. They say they saw Payne put a finger in his mouth, and move it in and out, whilst rubbing his nipple with the other hand. And speaking of what Madeleine would do, next to the father, Gerry. These testimonials from doctors, as credible as the McCanns, should have had another treatment by the police. And what did the PJ do when they finally received this information? Nothing. Not even included in the letter of any investigation related to this episode. David Payne, in your opinion, may have something to do with the disappearance of Madeleine? I do not know why it was not investigated properly as it should, in my opinion, have been. He was the last to see Madeleine alive after 17.30 hours, when she left the nursery. Gerry was playing tennis and asked him to look in on Kate and the kids. Gerry replies that he was in the apartment and she (Madeleine) was there. He returned 30 minutes later. Kate says it was 30 seconds. Something that does not fit together. In the book you say that he was recognised by a social worker. What did you intend by reporting this episode? Only that people realised that it is one more situation that was not investigated. The following morning to the disappearance, a social worker of English nationality in the Algarve offers to help, but she was almost ill-treated/offended by the couple, apparently by indication of this man [David Payne]. This man is recognised by the social worker as already having passed in a process, in an investigation, without her being able at the time to tell if it was in the quality/status of a witness or as in another processual figure [means a judicial status like arguido or suspect]. If he has or not some relation with the death, I do not know. But these are situations that could not have passed in clear/without being investigated, as they were. They should have been checked. But Jane Taner was a credible witness? Never was. But there were other things. Phone calls from anonymous people who came to mention it as a possible abduction. These anonymous phone calls took place before or after being recognised by Jane Tanner? I do not know need, but it was certainly before he was made arguido. Either way, nothing has been found that links Robert Murat in this case. Recently you said that there is much you know and have not written. Is there something that has been purposely left out? It is logical that yes. What and for what purpose? I cannot disclose it. the scent and blood, which indicated a partial match to the genetic profile of Madeleine, provides the conviction that she was the one that died there. The closet in the McCanns bedroom was big enough to hide a corpse inside.<!--" The British Prime Minister, Gordon Brown called the police counterpart of Mr.Gonçalo Amaral, in Leicester, to warn him that Gonçalo Amaral had been removed. Gonçalo Amaral was only given notice of his 'removal' from the case two hours after this call was made.
Madeleine's Right Arm and the Strange Mark
The issue was raised by Mr. Hernâni Carvalho. Madeleine's right arm has a strange mark, a mark which, according to what Mr. Carvalho has learned with Doctor Natália Vara, a forensic psychologist is not a sun burn - in that case more parts of her body would show signs of sun burnings and it has the signs of a hard slap or similar. The point here, is that interviews were conducted with the baby sitters at the Ocean Club crèche and none of them remembers this very visible mark on Madeleine's arm. There wasn't any statement from the parents regarding this fact. Therefore, the conclusion is that this was made after 17:30, after the parents picked Maddie up from the crèche on the 3rd of May 2007 A question regarding the tapas friends and how many people were seated at the table dining when the girl disappeared was put to Gonçalo Amaral. He stated: 'It is not known'. We should have continued investigating the parents in order to either charge them or rule them out as suspects. If I represented this couple, I would have insisted that police investigations continue. Not everything we do is to incriminate a suspect. Often a phone will be tapped in order to obtain information that will clear a suspect. I found the intervention of the [then] British Ambassador strange, as besides the British Consul in Portimão already being involved in the case from the first morning of Madeleine's disappearance, all diplomatic channels had been opened and were functional. With the arrival of the Ambassador, my colleagues and I thought it was odd, and to a certain extent made us feel limited in our investigations. TPN: Did you ever receive orders to investigate in a certain manner?
GA: No we did not receive any orders. I don't like talking about orders. But we felt limited. When did the police first learn of the intention of the McCanns to leave Portugal? GA: With the arrival of the sniffer dogs, I think back in August, the couple started showing a keenness to leave the country. As for these dogs, I have not seen or heard any scepticism in Britain, contrary to Portugal.
A bodily fluid was detected in the trunk of the car which was similar to that of Madeleine McCann in 15 of the 19 indicators of her profile.
TPN: Has this evidence been investigated further?
GA: No.
TPN: Why not?
GA: You will have to ask my former colleagues that question. What would you say to Madeleine's parents? I have nothing to say. My overriding preoccupation is with the little girl, not the parents. |
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