Why should we be expected to blindy presume their innocence?
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HiDeHo
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 128
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:06 pm Post subject: Why should we be expected to blindy presume their innocence?
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Why should it be demanded that we presume them innocent?
Thats a legal term and for the record..Yes!..They are innocent until proven
guilty...
It doesnt mean they ARE innocent...
EVERY guilty person is considered innocent until proven guilty and even
then....because the burden of proof lays in the prosecution's hands, they could
get off because of an element of doubt....even though they did the crime.
I know this question has been asked a thousand times...but I still fail to see
why anyone could claim without doubt and usually with righteousness that they
ARE innocent...
Is it because no-one could comprehend two normal people doing such a
heinous act...disposing of their own daughter's body with the intention of hiding
something that they couldn't risk being exposed?
Is it because the Portugese police make good 'fall guys' and reports of them
being incompetent are blindly believed?
Is it because 'supposedly' reputable media reports tend to err on the side of
caution, choosing to not be controversial maybe until there are more 'facts' that
are official?
Is this new round of articles manipulating peoples opinions?
Whether you are pro McCann or Anti McCann...the information is the same...
How you process the information is a personal thing...and I respect other's
having opinions.
However, when opinions are made with very little knowledge of all the
information available (whether true or not) they cannot expect to have others
agree with their opinions...
There are those that blindly believe what they are 'told' and there are those that
question every detail and motive behind that detail.
In my heart I can't believe they could do that to little Maddy...but I don't make
emotional judgements.
I look at the information presented and formulate an opinion based on what is
presented AS WELL AS what I feel is an impossible thing for parents to do...
Because of this I question their innocence...
To those that honestly believe they are innocent....how do you explain the
details that are being 'leaked'...?
Nothing is true?
Well then maybe the claims of their innocence is not true either!
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lynnkx
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1350
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject:
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Exactly
People who are innocent until proven guilty are 'under suspicion' - and as we are ALL aware - a lot of guilty people do not even get to have a trial in court - let alone be found guilty
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DarkRain
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 693
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject:
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Be accused of a crime you didn't commit and then you'll understand.
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clocker
Joined: 18 Jul 2007
Posts: 245
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:07 pm Post subject:
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I don't make emotional assumptions in this case either, neither do the police. That's the way it should be in an inquiry.
Those that use the 'innocent until proven guilty' mantra are doing so to try to gain the moral highground, which isn't helping to find out what happened to Madeleine.
Take the emotion out of this case and try to find the facts is my approach. That said, I do feel very sorry for Madeleine, but my feelings for her as an innocent child are separate to those that are trying to find the facts of the case.
I've been called 'sad' for thinking that....I call it being logical and not being so emotional that you bring too many pre-conceptions to the table.
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ohyeah
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 50
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:07 pm Post subject:
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[quote="DarkRain"]Be accused of a crime you didn't commit and then you'll understand.[/quote]
Exactly and then allow the world and the media to rip you apart also while doing so, just to put the boot in some more. That's how it works, sad sad little world that we live in.
I only hope that half the people who spurt accusations over things they READ in the media, don't find out a story is about them some day.
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Payge
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 640
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Why should we be expected to blindy presume their innoce
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[quote="HiDeHo"] Is this new round of articles manipulating peoples opinions? [/quote]
Most definitely. And the two fiction writers -- the Times and
Bridget O'Donnell -- have now picked up a nice fat cheque
just in time for Christmas.
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tdee
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 863
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject:
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All said & done
... they did leave the kids alone!!!! at the start.. if not we would not be here disgussing Madeleine.....
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kevin2105
Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 841
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject:
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[quote="DarkRain"]Be accused of a crime you didn't commit and then you'll understand.[/quote]
Do you think Murat did it?
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oldcrone
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 2539
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:13 pm Post subject:
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[quote="DarkRain"]Be accused of a crime you didn't commit and then you'll understand.[/quote]
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But the McCanns haven't been accused of a crime they didn't commit ...
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lynnkx
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1350
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject:
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[quote="DarkRain"]Be accused of a crime you didn't commit and then you'll understand.[/quote]
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Which is worse -
To be accused of a crime [just accused mind you ] that one did not commit?
or
To be a victim of a crime that does not get to court because of a lack of ENOUGH evidence [just some - not enough]??
Last edited by lynnkx on Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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chad
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 941
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject:
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@OP
You can consider them guilty if you want to prejudge the case.
To be prejudiced isn't a very nice trait though.
From what I've read, people who argue against those who
pronounce the McCanns as guilty do not argue for innocence
but for justice to take its course.
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chad
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 941
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject:
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[quote="lynnkx"]Which is worse -
To be accused of a crime [just accused mind you ] that one did not commit?
or
To be a victim of a crime that does not get to court because of a lack of ENOUGH evidence [just some - not enough]??
[/quote]
I give in. Which is worse?
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ohyeah
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 50
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject:
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[quote="kevin2105"][quote="DarkRain"]Be accused of a crime you didn't commit and then you'll understand.[/quote]
Do you think Murat did it?[/quote]
NOBODY did anything until proven. No I do not think Murat did it, and if I did, I would not accuse him publicly over what I thought to be a party to him losing a lot of his life and business to this.
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sans_souci
Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 2266
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject:
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[quote="oldcrone"][quote="DarkRain"]Be accused of a crime you didn't commit and then you'll understand.[/quote]
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But the McCanns haven't been accused of a crime they didn't commit ... [/quote]
On this forum they have been accused of all sorts of things.
But you are quite correct - in the real world, they have not been accused of anything because the police do not have any or sufficient evidence to accuse them. And that seems likely to remain the case.
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ohyeah
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 50
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject:
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[quote="tdee"]All said & done
... they did leave the kids alone!!!! at the start.. if not we would not be here disgussing Madeleine.....[/quote]
That is correct. I agree with that.
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lynnkx
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1350
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject:
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[quote="chad"]@OP
You can consider them guilty if you want to prejudge the case.
To be prejudiced isn't a very nice trait though.
From what I've read, people who argue against those who
pronounce the McCanns as guilty do not argue for innocence
but for justice to take its course.[/quote]
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Different people see things differently
Personally - I see the 'supporters' as people who do not want anybody to be suspected of crimes....
They only want people that are caught LITERALLY red-handed to have to take the consequencies of their actions....
They DO NOT want anybody to investigate anything that might just be possible - they only want the police to investigate the bl**dingly obvious
Wouldn't this make the world a paradise for crims tho' - but ESPECIALLY for those who commit crimes against children
Seems that is what some people want
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Scylla
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 324
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject:
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[quote="sans_souci"]On this forum they have been accused of all sorts of things.
But you are quite correct - in the real world, they have not been accused of anything because the police do not have any or sufficient evidence to accuse them. And that seems likely to remain the case.[/quote]
~~~~~~
Sans_souci, aren't you the person who said s/he trained as a barrister? (That's a genuine question, not a rhetorical one.)
If you are, then you of all people should realize what a huge assumption you yourself have made by declaring that the PJ "do not have any or sufficient evidence to accuse them."
You don't know that for a fact. You're only assuming it to be the case.
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ohyeah
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 50
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject:
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[quote="lynnkx"][quote="chad"]@OP
You can consider them guilty if you want to prejudge the case.
To be prejudiced isn't a very nice trait though.
From what I've read, people who argue against those who
pronounce the McCanns as guilty do not argue for innocence
but for justice to take its course.[/quote]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Different people see things differently
Personally - I see the 'supporters' as people who do not want anybody to be suspected of crimes....
They only want people that are caught LITERALLY red-handed to have to take the consequencies of their actions....
They DO NOT want anybody to investigate anything that might just be possible - they only want the police to investigate the bl**dingly obvious
Wouldn't this make the world a paradise for crims tho' - but ESPECIALLY for those who commit crimes against children
Seems that is what some people want [/quote]
Actually speaking from my stance this is incorrect.
I am all FOR suspicious thoughts of anyone here and freedom of thought.
I am NOT for people being slandered publicly with no proof of such a crime such as murder when nobody even knows for definite a child is dead. Many people, not just McCanns, Murat and his girlfriend, the three now on supposedly CCTV, they are all being slandered in public and yet they could also be innocent of such a big crime.
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lynnkx
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1350
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject:
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[quote="ohyeah"]
I am all FOR suspicious thoughts of anyone here and freedom of thought.
I am NOT for people being slandered publicly with no proof of such a crime such as murder when nobody even knows for definite a child is dead. Many people, not just McCanns, Murat and his girlfriend, the three now on supposedly CCTV, they are all being slandered in public and yet they could also be innocent of such a big crime.[/quote]
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It would seem you contradict yourself somewhat severely.....
This forum epitomises freedom of thought - it is for people to express their theories and thoughts.....
Saying that somebody THINKS somebody did something is not slander or libel by the way
Maybe this is where you get mixed up?
HTH
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ohyeah
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 50
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject:
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[quote="lynnkx"][quote="ohyeah"]
I am all FOR suspicious thoughts of anyone here and freedom of thought.
I am NOT for people being slandered publicly with no proof of such a crime such as murder when nobody even knows for definite a child is dead. Many people, not just McCanns, Murat and his girlfriend, the three now on supposedly CCTV, they are all being slandered in public and yet they could also be innocent of such a big crime.[/quote]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It would seem you contradict yourself somewhat severely.....
This forum epitomises freedom of thought - it is for people to express their theories and thoughts.....
Saying that somebody THINKS somebody did something is not slander or libel by the way
Maybe this is where you get mixed up?
HTH [/quote]
THOUGHT... A private noise made by a voice in your head. It goes from a thought to an accusation when printed in public.
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lynnkx
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1350
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject:
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[quote="ohyeah"][quote="lynnkx"][quote="ohyeah"]
I am all FOR suspicious thoughts of anyone here and freedom of thought.
I am NOT for people being slandered publicly with no proof of such a crime such as murder when nobody even knows for definite a child is dead. Many people, not just McCanns, Murat and his girlfriend, the three now on supposedly CCTV, they are all being slandered in public and yet they could also be innocent of such a big crime.[/quote]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It would seem you contradict yourself somewhat severely.....
This forum epitomises freedom of thought - it is for people to express their theories and thoughts.....
Saying that somebody THINKS somebody did something is not slander or libel by the way
Maybe this is where you get mixed up?
HTH [/quote]
THOUGHT... A private noise made by a voice in your head. It goes from a thought to an accusation when printed in public.[/quote]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No it does not - THINK about it
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HiDeHo
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 128
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:49 pm Post subject:
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I don't believe I made any prejudgement.
My initial thoughts were to believe what was being reported.
I was even vaguely tolerant of the fact they left the children alone, although at
that point I had no knowledge of the circumstances.
I do not believe in forming strong opinions without trying to get as much
information as possible. I found this forum because of that belief.
I would love to find ANY information that points to their innocence...
Where is it?
As far as being accused of a crime that you are not guilty of committing.....that
has to be horrendous and I could only try to imagine the frustration of
attempting to convice others of your innocence...and WHY you are innocent...
I don't see that in this case...If I did then maybe I would change my opinions...
Justifying actions, accusing others and producing spin and smokescreens do
not cry 'innocent' to me..
Give me something to work with and maybe my opinion will change...
Lets hear every detail of that day...Every picture...Everyone who 'saw' you and
Maddy that day...What was said to you...How many times you blinked that
day..ANYTHING that might convince me that what you were saying was true...
I don't see that either!
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tin-lizzy
