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TinLizzy
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Date Posted:07/30/2011 12:53 PMCopy HTML

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/318001-omg-anybody-just-seen-gmtv-3-yr-old-girl-abducted/AllOnOnePage

OMG. Anybody just seen GMTV? 3 yr old girl abducted on holiday on the Algarve.

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tiredemma Fri 04-May-07 07:48:29

kate said reports just in, cant find anything on bbc.

bloody awful.

Pixiefish Fri 04-May-07 07:50:40

o dear god. I hope its not true

tiredemma Fri 04-May-07 07:52:50

I cant find anything else. She just said that they had just had a report in that a 3 yr old girl had been abducted in portugal on the algarve- more news when they receive it. I imagine they will repeat it at 0800 on the gmtv news.

tiredemma Fri 04-May-07 07:58:25

they might say something on the news in a min

tiredemma Fri 04-May-07 08:09:22

Did anyone see the news? 3 yr old gone missing from a hotel (mark warner), police feel she has been abducted.

lionheart Fri 04-May-07 08:09:56

On radio 4 too.

FoghornLeghorn Fri 04-May-07 08:18:14

They were staying at a Mark Warner hotel in Praia Da Luz in the Algarve - parents put 2 children down to sleep then went to hotel restaurant for dinner when they went to check on children 3 yr old girl was missing.

I literally feel like I am going to throw up, we stay at this resort most years, have been going since I was a child - we are going in August with our 2 DD's who will be 3 & 9 months. I feel sick

tiredemma Fri 04-May-07 08:18:20

family friend on tv now.

FoghornLeghorn Fri 04-May-07 08:21:40

We have family frieds who have lived in Luz for the last 15+ years and I know they would do everything the could to help - how do I get in contact with GMTV to point these people towards them ?

RTKangaMummy Fri 04-May-07 08:36:05

By Phone
Contact our phone room on 0870 333 0550 (9am-12.30pm Monday-Friday)

RING THIS MORNING COS THEY WILL BE TALKING ABOUT IT

DrNortherner Fri 04-May-07 08:36:26

They have just said the room was broken in to and they beleive 3 yr old has been taken. Apparantly she is white, blonde and v pretty.

I feel sick. This is just horendous.

tullytwo Fri 04-May-07 08:39:53

Did they leave the children alone in the hotel room?

What ages were the other kids?

SSSandy2 Fri 04-May-07 08:39:59


OMG I hope not. But if the room was broken into, what other explanation could there be?

Hulababy Fri 04-May-07 08:47:18

So sad. Hope there is some good news soon.

Hulababy Fri 04-May-07 08:48:30

BBC story here

"A friend of the family told BBC News that the McCanns were having dinner a few hundred yards away from the apartment and had been checking on the children every half hour"


So looks like she went missing in the space of just 30 minutes

lucy5 Fri 04-May-07 08:50:01

This has made me feel sick, sending positive vibes out to Portugal. Hope she is found safe and well.

SSSandy2 Fri 04-May-07 08:50:09

I thought that too. She can't have been far away when they got to the hotel room then. Haven't seen any mention of the ages of the other dc

JodieG1 Fri 04-May-07 08:54:19

Awful Hope she is found soon. Surely they weren't alone in the room though?

PeachyChocolateEClair Fri 04-May-07 08:56:12

Oh no poor little lass!

FoghornLeghorn Fri 04-May-07 08:57:55

Aparently shutters of room where broken down

I have emailed GMTV - will ring This Morning now

ggglimpopo Fri 04-May-07 08:58:57

Do you remember we had that heated thread here on mumsnet about whether we would leave a child unattended in a hotel room and go a check regularly on thme whilst having a drink or eating dinner?

Poor family. I hope it has a positive outcome.

NadineBaggott Fri 04-May-07 08:59:17

what have you emailed about?

FoghornLeghorn Fri 04-May-07 08:59:55

I just can't believe it, I can't count the number of times I have been there and I have never ever heard of anything like this happening before.
I feel sick

FoghornLeghorn Fri 04-May-07 09:00:31

To say that I have family friends who have lived there for 15+ years and to hopefully put them in touch - being locals they may be able to help

SSSandy2 Fri 04-May-07 09:02:16

but if she was in a room with 2 other dc, wouldn't they all have woken up when the shutters were broken?

This is just horrendous. It's something I would never have imagined happening, poor family.

lyrabelacqua Fri 04-May-07 09:02:55

OMG, my blood is literally running cold at hearing about this. We've been considering whether it would be safe to leave dses (2+4) alone in a hotel room while we go for a drink/dinner close by. Will have to think again after this.

JodieG1 Fri 04-May-07 09:09:46

Personally I'd never leave them alone. Really feel for the family and poor child

WaynettanEasterEgg Fri 04-May-07 09:10:38

The poor family. We have left DS1 in his room before and gone for a drink.....have always had a monitor though. I hope to God she has just wandered off.....

SSSandy2 Fri 04-May-07 09:12:35

please don't let's turn this into another of those threads on whether to leave dc alone or not, like it's somehow the dp's fault if some lunatic is at work here. I would hate the family to come on here and read that.

CaptainUnderpants Fri 04-May-07 09:13:52

Very strange . I hope they find the little girl quickly and get to the bottom of it .

FioFio Fri 04-May-07 09:15:01

Message deleted

PeachyChocolateEClair Fri 04-May-07 09:16:10

I agree with Sssandy, if this is a snatch there's only one evil bod involved- snatcher.

I can't imagine what that poor family must be ging through, its everyones worst nightmare . Horrific.

FoghornLeghorn Fri 04-May-07 09:18:10

Some people would, some people wouldn't - their family, their choice.
I bet this family are beating themselves up about this and the what if's. Truely awful

tiredemma Fri 04-May-07 09:33:03

From SkyNEWS

sky news story


this had made me feel sick.

LIZS Fri 04-May-07 09:51:51

We nearly booked there last year and may well have done the same althgouh less leily now kdis are odler and would eat with us at that time of night. iirc MW operate within a public complex so it isn't exclusive to them unlike my understanding of many of their other clubs. Awful for the family.

Callisto Fri 04-May-07 09:58:05

There has to be more to this story - it just doesn't make sense to me.

NotanOtter Fri 04-May-07 09:59:30

why not callisto?

littlelapin Fri 04-May-07 09:59:39

ggg, if you are still around, have sent you an email, not sure if you got it.

SSSandy2 Fri 04-May-07 10:00:31

by the way, can I slip in - I didn't mean anyone who had posted already was trying to blame the parents at all... Sorry if it came across that way. Not intended

hertsnessex Fri 04-May-07 10:03:12

oh how awful for the parents. it does say the hotel listen in to the rooms - we have lefft the boys before like this with the hotel using baby listening. dont think ill be doing it again.

Waswondering Fri 04-May-07 10:04:07

It's everyone's worst nightmare. I really, really feel for them and hope they find their daughter unharmed very soon.

SSSandy2 Fri 04-May-07 10:05:06

herts, the sky article says the hotel offers that monitoring service but I wasn't sure if the family were using it. I presume they were though.

fannyannie Fri 04-May-07 10:06:00

I'm with Callisto at the moment - something just doesn't make sense - what leads them to think she was abducted, how many other children were sleeping in the apartment? Surely one of them woke up and must have heard/seen something.

It just seems odd - but at the same time (so please don't get my above paragraph the wrong way) terribly sad - hopefully she'll turn up ok.

mountaingirl Fri 04-May-07 10:11:35

I don't know how it works at this hotel but other MW hotels have nannies on each floor and every 15 minutes they check for them crying, they do not enter the rooms. If this poor little girl was abducted from her room by someone breaking into it from the outside then he/she surely must have knowledge of the hotel. What a horrendous situation for the family, it doesn't bare thinking about. We have done lots of MW holidays and have left the dc on child listening, the nannies have always been wonderful and if there was ever a problem they would find you straight away. I pray that she is found safe and well.

DrNortherner Fri 04-May-07 10:16:53

They said on GMTV the shutters were broken. So that leads them to assume she has been abducted and not simply wandered off. We don't know how old the other kids are, perhaps they are just babies and therefore even if they did wake are unable to tell what they saw?

Maybe other things have been taken from the room - belongings of the little girl. These things would all point to an abduction.

I hope to god she is found safe and well very soon.

Macdog Fri 04-May-07 10:23:57

I really hope that she can be found quickly and safely.
Can't even begin to imagine how her parents are feeling.

GreebosWhiskers Fri 04-May-07 10:24:58

It just doesn't bear thinking about. Hope to god the little girl is okay.

Callisto Fri 04-May-07 10:26:41

Well, it doesn't make sense that this girl was taken seemingly at random; that she was taken from her room (surely there are easier ways to abduct a child); that no-one heard anything; if it was an 'inside job' why were the shutters broken etc etc.

If it was an opportunistic abduction it is a very strange way of doing it so maybe there is a reason she was taken that isn't the sinister awful one we are all thinking.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 10:32:14

On the bbc it says that “police are investigating whether a 3 year old girl may have been abducted” which to me would indicate that there is possibly more to this than is being reported. Tbh I would be more inclined to read/believe what is written on the bbc than ITV/sky as the latter don’t always report from official sources and there reporting can be somewhat sensationalist at times.

Also, even if the apartment had been broken into the little girl may have been scared and run off to try and find her parents and got lost or, heaven forbid, fallen into a swimming pool.

I agree with callisto something about this doesn’t add up.

Personally can’t understand why any parent would leave a child in a hotel and go a few hundred meters to a restaurant, to me that would be the same as leaving the kids at home and going out to the local pub, most wouldn’t do that so why is a hotel different?

RTKangaMummy Fri 04-May-07 10:32:52

watrch ITV1 now

will prob be talking about it

lyrabelacqua Fri 04-May-07 10:35:10

You may be more comfortable with it if you can see the room from where you're sitting, although that doesn't seem to have made any difference in this case. if we did it we'd make sure we were close enough to use a monitor.

RTKangaMummy Fri 04-May-07 10:38:56

Police search for missing toddler

Police in Portugal are investigating claims a three-year-old girl from Leicester has been abducted while on holiday with her family.
Madeline McCann's parents were having dinner at a restaurant close to the Mark Warner Ocean Summer Club near the village of Praia da Luz in the Algarve.

Kate and Gerry McCann returned at about 2145 GMT to find an empty bed and the apartment door and window wide open.

The apartment has been cordoned off and local people are helping with a search.

The British Embassy confirmed it had been informed about the toddler's disappearence.

A friend of the family told BBC News that the McCanns were having dinner a few hundred yards away from the apartment and had been checking on the children every half hour.

The family was on holiday with a group of nine adults and eight children.




.

LIZS Fri 04-May-07 10:39:08

People do things on holiday they probably would n't do at home and MW offer the "reassurance" of a babylistening service. How that might operate in this Club I'm not sure because iirc I don't think it is a typical MW complex., Accommodation isn't all in one place, but among a much larger public complex, and the "club" seems very spread out. Remember that companies like this like to encourage eating in the evenings without the younger children present. I agree there may well be circumstances which are not being made public but it does seem a very random incident

RTKangaMummy Fri 04-May-07 10:39:23

That is from BBC NEWS website

JodieG1 Fri 04-May-07 10:39:36

According to sky news there were 3 under 5's in the room so I wonder why only the 3 year old is gone? So very sad

lyrabelacqua Fri 04-May-07 10:44:37

Quote from Mark Warner: “We are all hoping that she is asleep under a bush somewhere and we will find her soon.”
I hope so too.

Hulababy Fri 04-May-07 10:45:44

JodieG1 - I would imagine that most people who abduct children would normally only take one child, not all of them.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 10:51:26

But to me this doesn’t seem like a random incident. If she was abducted, the abductor would have had to know that there were children alone in the apartment, that the parents weren’t there and when they were coming/going to check on the children. Too many factors involved to just randomly go and break into a room and abduct a child.

Megglevache Fri 04-May-07 10:51:38

Message withdrawn

JodieG1 Fri 04-May-07 10:52:31

Hulababy I thought that too but not when there was a room with 3 children in. Just seemed odd to me that's all. I hope she's just wandered off somewhere too.

lyrabelacqua Fri 04-May-07 10:53:34

Quotes from hotel manager:

He said there was no physical evidence that the girl had been abducted from the family’s rented apartment while they ate at the tapas restaurant 200 yards away.
“It’s still questionable as to whether it’s an abduction,” he said.

Callisto Fri 04-May-07 10:58:28

I guess he would say that though as he doesn't want any bad publicity for the hotel.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 10:58:40

are both the parents the girl's biological parents? could this be an absent parent who doesn't have access who has followed the family on holiday and has taken advantage of the fact they may have been more relaxed while on holiday?

doyouwantfrieswiththat Fri 04-May-07 11:01:13

In some american states I've heard they use a statewide news alert when a child goes missing which has had some success, do they have anything like this in Portugal do you think?

totaleclipse Fri 04-May-07 11:02:30

My parents live in Lanzarote, they told me a stry of child abduction there a few years back, a toddler blonde english boy vanished while with his parents in a shopping mall, the security guards were fantastic and immediately shut all entrances to the shoping mall while they seached for him, they found him with a german couple in the toilets dying his hair, it sent shivers down my spine.

I so hope this little one is found.

Hulababy Fri 04-May-07 11:02:42

No physical evidence? I thought there were reports of a broken shutter and the door and window being open.

Hulababy Fri 04-May-07 11:03:38

Brings back memories of the little boy Ben, who went missing in Greece.

I just hope the ending is happier.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 11:06:12

that may not actually be what happened though hb. if it was reported on sky/ITV, it's possible that report has just come in from a member of the public, ie friend of a friend of someone who was on holiday there, and ITV/sky don't always check out their sources before reporting iyswim. eg on the day of the 7/7 bombings, sky were reporting that 5 busses had been blown up and that several suspected suecide bombers had been shot in canary warf.

TinLizzy Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #1
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Re:First Reports

Date Posted:07/30/2011 12:56 PMCopy HTML

JodieG1 Fri 04-May-07 11:06:20

totaleclipse - gave me goosebumps reading that.

mommajools Fri 04-May-07 11:06:46

Thats terrible totaleclipse - thank god for the quick thinking of the security guards.
I have been thining about Ben Needham - he was never found and they thought it may have been gypsies who took him . Cant remember how he was snatched.

Lucycat Fri 04-May-07 11:08:19

It's called an Amber alert in the Us isn't it?

saw it on csi

RTKangaMummy Fri 04-May-07 11:08:50

What surprised me on gmtv was that the friend didn't know how long they had been on holiday or when they went

Blu Fri 04-May-07 11:09:30

There are quite a few versions of that story, though, Totaleclipse. I think your parents may have fallen for an urban myth.

Maximum horror for anyone it happens to, but child abduction is very rare.

expatinscotland Fri 04-May-07 11:09:34

Wait for the story to unfold.

In most child abduction cases, the abductor is a parent.

RTKangaMummy Fri 04-May-07 11:09:52

totaleclipse

Hulababy Fri 04-May-07 11:12:59

True. I do find that the non BBC sites tend to report things too fast, and then have to backtrack when things are not true.


mommajools - I think he was playing outside the holiday villa when he was taken. Thee have been several false (or suspected) sightings of him, but he has never been found.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 11:14:25

from ITV just now "join me and Katie for the latest on the abduction at 1" ... completely sensationalist - it hasn't actually been confirmed as an abduction yet but they just love a good story.

doyouwantfrieswiththat Fri 04-May-07 11:15:54

I think so Lucycat.

Similar thing was touted in the UK after Sarah Payne was abducted. don't think it took off though.

I think if they're going to find her they have to be very quick & rely on as many people as possible knowing she's missing whether its an estranged partner or not.

my mind goes back to the woman who stopped those two boys in Liverpool who took Jamie Bulger because she wanted to know why they had a very upset toddler with them. now that chills me, she has to live with the fact that though her instincts told her something was wrong they gave her a plausible enough explanation to make her feel she was wrong.she knows she could have saved that boys life.

totaleclipse Fri 04-May-07 11:17:10

Blu, possibly I would'nt be surprised as Lanzarotes history also claims that all 130 volcanoes errupted at the same time and no-one was hurt..........hmmmmmmm.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 11:20:48

"She's very pretty and very blonde so wouldn't be a likely child to be with a Portuguese family or holidaymakers".. that quoted from the "family friend" on the bbc. ey? there are probably lots of holiday makers with pretty blonde toddlers?

also bbc said that police are not reporting all info as it's very sensitive - maybe more to this?

Hulababy Fri 04-May-07 11:21:40

wannabe - I assume they mean families or holidymakers who are Portuguese maybe?

RedLorryYellowLorry Fri 04-May-07 11:26:37

DYWFWT - I've just cried thinking about how that woman must feel now Poor Jamie B. I hope they find this little girl safe and well.

Blu Fri 04-May-07 11:38:00
Blu Fri 04-May-07 11:39:38

oops -warning - the article title in that link has a crass and insensitive title...not nice in the context of this thread.

ipanemagirl Fri 04-May-07 11:42:10

worst nightmare for any parent.
I don't want to get into blame but I certainly wouldn't leave ds 100 or 200 yards away at night, babylistening service or not. We always took ds with us to eat at night when he was that age.
But I know Luz and it's a small place, and fairly quiet at this time of year.
Horrible business hope they find her soon.

foxinsocks Fri 04-May-07 11:48:55

arrghh thought someone would say that. Thing is, we don't know what set up they had there (re the baby listening/baby sitting).

and someone mentioned them 'questioning' the abduction, I assume they are doing this because there's a possibility she may have wandered off on her own.

Ghastly - poor parents.

LIZS Fri 04-May-07 11:53:53

Just looked on the MW website and they offer a kids' club-based evening baby sitting service - perhaps that is in lieu of babylistening ? Sky reckon the door to the apartment had been left ajar

ipanemagirl Fri 04-May-07 11:56:57

Latest reports imply the door of her room wasn't locked so she could have gone out herself I suppose.
It sounds like they could see the room from the restaurant and were checking but once an hour?

ipanemagirl Fri 04-May-07 12:00:36

sorry if I sounded unfeeling fox, I'm just slightly hysterical on the subject and have always been really strict about what babysitting means. To me it means an adult is a room or so away. That's just the minimum to me. Otherwise they are not actually being supervised are they?!
It's just my opinion and I don't mean to give offence really!

wickedwaterwitch Fri 04-May-07 12:01:09

How bloody awful.

lyrabelacqua Fri 04-May-07 12:23:24

Friend says shutters were tamptered with, manager says there was no sign of a break-in. Inclined to believe the friend as she has no reason to lie afaik.
Also, they weren't using the babysitting service, even though one was available, probably because they could see the room from where they were.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 12:32:39

"they could see the room from where they were", obviously not as their child disappeared from it?

Maybe it's wrong to judge but this does make me actually. Why would a parent leave their children unsupervised in a hotel room, on the ground floor of a hotel, with the door unlocked, while they went out for dinner? And if babysitting was available, why not use it? any of those children could have wandered out at any time, and it seems the parents would have been none the wiser.

LIZS Fri 04-May-07 12:33:11

Just caught the end of bbc news - her aunt says 3 kids were put to bed early, checked every 1/2 hour. At 9.30 they were all asleep - twins in cots either sie of the little girl's single bed. At 10 they found the door and the window open and Madeleine gone. MW due to issue a statement at 12.45. They were among a large group of families all of whom had a number of similar aged and younger children.

LIZS Fri 04-May-07 12:34:49

wannabe that is so easy to say after the event. They must have believed they could and would see.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 12:35:25

so why take an older child if there were babies? this still doesn't add up. I guess it's possible the apartment was broken into, the little girl woke up and ran out of the door, and who knows from there - she would have had no idea where here parents were so could have ended up anywhere.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 12:36:50

maybe lizs but surely it's common sense. most people I know won't even leave their kids in a car while they go and pay for petrol, let alone in a hotel room while they go and have dinner.

Hulababy Fri 04-May-07 12:36:59

Sadly I can think of reasons why someone might take a slightly older little girl than babies, and why they would just take one child and not more But that is too horrid to contemplate right now until more details are known.

Blu Fri 04-May-07 12:39:58

There could be 101 'might haves' in this.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 12:41:58

I can see why someone would only take one child, after all it would be a lot harder to take three - you would need at least two people for that. but I do wonder whether someone would actually have planned to break in to abduct a child, in which case it would have had to have been planned, opportunistic abductors will normally abduct from a public place, but this was a closed room - which to me would indicate it was someone known to the child perhaps, or alternatively my previous theory that the child simply ran out on hearing someone break in.

foxinsocks Fri 04-May-07 12:42:08

I don't feel comfortable reading posts judging them before we know all the facts so I'll bow out now.

The parents are obviously devastated - whatever happens, I hope to goodness they find her soon. She's been gone for a long time.

Tutter Fri 04-May-07 12:46:14

oh god that's awful

we weren't far from there last week

petunia Fri 04-May-07 12:47:48

They're talking about this on Jeremy Vine's Radio 2 show at the moment.

DeviousDaffodil Fri 04-May-07 12:47:53

Wondered how long it would be before people started tut- tutting. Shame.
I am praying she is returned safe and sound.
Hope it is something like a domestic/ estranged parent and nothing worse. poor baby.

Tutter Fri 04-May-07 12:47:56

and yes i'm afraid i have to say that i would never leave ds unattended in a building, wherever we were

Tutter Fri 04-May-07 12:49:10

(DD - a stroy like this will inevitably raise the question i'm afraid. and if it traspires that she was left, then maybe it will stop the same from happening to another family in future. so valid imo)

nogoes Fri 04-May-07 12:51:36

I know what you mean Hulababy. Oh god, this is truly awful.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 12:52:05

of course it's desperately sad for the family, no-one would dispute that. But I don't think it's wrong to question why someone would leave such young children unattended in an unsecured room in what is essentially a public place.

DeviousDaffodil Fri 04-May-07 12:53:05

Maybe we should wait for the full facts before we start judging.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 12:53:08

and the friend of the family has confirmed that the three children had been left, so it's not something that has just been made up by the media iyswim.

NotQuiteCockney Fri 04-May-07 12:54:07

As blu has said, the Lanzarote hair-dyeing German child-abducting story is an urban legend, before everyone gets worked up about that.

And I am very about this story tbh. Child abduction by strangers is incredibly rare.

RTKangaMummy Fri 04-May-07 13:00:24

From BBC website


Toddler 'abducted' during holiday

Madeline disappeared while her parents were at a nearby restaurant
A search is being carried out for a three-year-old from Britain who may have been abducted while on holiday with her family in Portugal.
Madeline McCann's parents, from Leicestershire, were at a restaurant near the Mark Warner Ocean Summer Club, Praia da Luz when she went missing.

Kate and Gerry McCann returned at about 2145 GMT to find an empty bed and the apartment door and window wide open.

The apartment has been cordoned off and local people are helping with a search.

'Devoted family'

Gill Renwick, a friend of the family, said Mr and Mrs McCann had been having a meal in a tapas restaurant a few hundred yards from the apartment and had been checking on the toddler every half hour.

"She's obviously been taken as she couldn't have gone out on her own and the shutters had been forced open.


The McCann family had been holidaying with a larger group

"They're a devoted family and love their children to bits. They live for their children."

But Ms Renwick said the family, from Rothley, had felt let down by police in Portugal.

"I spoke to them [McCann family] this morning and they said the police had done nothing overnight and they felt as if they'd been left on their own.

"They just don't know where to turn."

But the manager of the Mark Warner resort in Portugal, John Hill, said about 60 staff and guests at the complex had searched until 0430 GMT while police notified border police, Spanish police and airports.

'Sensitive case'

"As you can imagine Madeline's parents are distraught and not doing very well at all," he said.

"It's still questionable as to whether it's abduction," he said. "We are hoping that Madeline is found as soon as possible and safe and well."

A spokeswoman from the Portuguese police said they were being careful with the information being released.



"It is a sensitive case, it involves a child and we cannot give more information for now."

The British Embassy confirmed it had been informed about the toddler's disappearance.

The family was on holiday with a group of nine adults and eight children.

Ms Renwick added the toddler would be easy to spot as she was very pretty and blonde.

"People in the local area should look out to see if there's anything unusual, did they hear anything, any strange noises?

"She's very pretty and very blonde so wouldn't be a likely child to be with a Portuguese family or holidaymakers."




.

debbsyandsonn Fri 04-May-07 13:00:55

oh my god how awful sending positive thoughts that they find her safe and well.

RTKangaMummy Fri 04-May-07 13:01:00

WATCH BBC1 now

homemama Fri 04-May-07 13:02:48

This is so sad. Please God, let her be ok!

It's strange, just yesterday Dh and I were talking about the little british boy who went missing in corfu about 17yrs ago. No trace ever found.
<sorry if that's been mentioned , I haven't read the thread>

MaloryTowers Fri 04-May-07 13:03:54

terrible situation



i do hope they find her sfae and well

Rhubarb Fri 04-May-07 13:06:08

Has anyone ever left their children in the garden playing whilst they were in the house? Good grief someone could have snatched your child from over the fence!

Or perhaps your child has slept in a tent in the garden - how irresponsible! Or in a crowded playground whilst you chatted with other mothers?

Oh how easy it is to point the finger whilst smugly smothering your own children.

I have left my children asleep in a hotel room with a baby alarm whilst me and dh have had a drink in the bar. It's a risk you take but the chances of them being abducted are slimmer than them being run over whilst holding your hand on a pedestrian crossing.

A paedo who had abducted and killed a girl was once asked if there was anything the mother could have done to have prevented him kidnapping the girl (from a busy fairground whilst the mother was distracted), he replied, maybe if the girl had been strapped to her mother, but then again he mused, he would have probably just killed the mother too.

We don't know what went on here. But I suggest all the smugger than thous take a hike and hope to goodness that nothing happens to their precious charges one day that will make them rethink their judgementalist attitudes.

And I'm sure we all sincerely hope that this girl is found safe and sound. The parents must be going through hell, without the added insult of being judged on their parenting skills.

ELF1981 Fri 04-May-07 13:07:03

This is very sad. I dont want to judge. I hope she is found very quickly and safe.

What her parents must be going through, I cannot imagine.

Kelly1978 Fri 04-May-07 13:07:38

hear, hear, rhubarb

NoodleStroodle Fri 04-May-07 13:08:42

Hear hear from here to Rhubarb.

(Are those on the moral high ground ever going to let go...)

LIZS Fri 04-May-07 13:08:42

well said Rhubarb.

DeviousDaffodil Fri 04-May-07 13:09:11

Hear hear Rhubarb. There but for the Grace of God go I.

ComeOVeneer Fri 04-May-07 13:10:52

As usual the voice of reason rhubarb.

ELF1981 Fri 04-May-07 13:11:03

Rhubarb - haven't read all the posts but whenever anything like this happens, there will also be those who said they'd never do whatever it was that caused the situation or those who have done it and see no issue.
Risks are small but still risks - its up to the parents in question as to whether they take them, and this is one instance when I can say that I wouldn't.

fannyannie Fri 04-May-07 13:11:34

indeed well said Rhubarb - infact as I type DS2 (3 1/2yrs) is out in the garden while I'm sat up here with the window open so I can here him.

amyjade Fri 04-May-07 13:12:03

Well written Rhubarb, totally agree with you.
Some of the comments on here really make me angry!! lets hope none of the child's family or friends use this site!!
Praying the poor little mite is returned safe and well.

ELF1981 Fri 04-May-07 13:12:38

having said that, just because I wouldn't leave my child in the hotel room while I'm having something to eat, it doesn't mean that I dont do other thing that people would disagree with.

MaloryTowers Fri 04-May-07 13:13:04

i dont think anybody really gives a shit anbout what anyone else would or wouldnt do

just spare a thought for that poor family

Rhubarb Fri 04-May-07 13:13:13

I wouldn't take my kids to McD's in case they get obese, does that give me the right to judge those who choose to visit McD's?

homemama Fri 04-May-07 13:14:04

Yes ELF, you may well not do this but I'm sure there are many things that you do which this mother would never do.

Abduction is very, very rare.

Rhubarb Fri 04-May-07 13:14:36

Agreed Malory, I don't even want to think about what her parent's are going through. My stomach feels like lead just thinking about it.

RTKangaMummy Fri 04-May-07 13:15:20

I am shocked that this is on BBC1 news AFTER politics



I would have thought it would be headline news not after these bloomin' polictians and their campaigns

I really hope they find her asleep under a table or in a chair somewhere in the hotel - that she has wondered off somewhere looking for her parents

homemama Fri 04-May-07 13:16:01

Do you know what? Even if she never checked on them, even if she has been letting them play on the beach by themselves whilst she got pissed, I'd still be feeling sorry for her and hoping the child was ok.

debbsyandsonn Fri 04-May-07 13:16:44

ffs elf a child is missing spare a thought for her family,cos i bet they have said the same thing over a million times in he past few hours.

Blu Fri 04-May-07 13:17:33

Is there anything else to say about this, now? Given that there is no new news...it's either going to stall in a discussion about people who weren't there on the day (i.e us) and what we might or might not have done - which is hardly relevant...or add to speculation.

No-one is going to be anything other than very sad for the family experienceing this or horrified beyond belief thinking 'what if it was my family'.

debbsyandsonn Fri 04-May-07 13:17:37

sky news have just said the shutters havent been broken

RTKangaMummy Fri 04-May-07 13:18:28

BBC1 news now

DeviousDaffodil Fri 04-May-07 13:18:29

AS soon as I heard it on the news after thinking poor child, I thought ' I bet some smug arse will come on mumsnet saying' I would never leave my child in a hotel room'. Well bully for you all. What bloody great people you are.
No parent deserves this and to be judged by others is appalling. Shame on you.

Marina Fri 04-May-07 13:19:19

Totally agree malory and rhubarb. So hoping she is safe and well

kittylette Fri 04-May-07 13:19:47

sounds to me like shes wandered off i hope shes found soon.

My dads best friend 'lost' his daughter for a few mins on holiday, shes wandered away (2 years old)

but she had gone to the pool, she drowned and he found her at the bottom - hes not the same person anymore - its awful

my prayers are with the family xxx

JodieG1 Fri 04-May-07 13:19:52

Does that mean that noone had broken in then? I really hope so and that she's just wandering about lost or asleep.

beansprout Fri 04-May-07 13:20:03

There are more important things than what we think about what the parents may, or may not have done here. Pray for this child and keep your crappy little judgements to yourselves (those of you judging that is!)

Hulababy Fri 04-May-07 13:20:57

I agree - can't believe the election results were considered moe imortant!

DANCESwithaFewExtraPounds Fri 04-May-07 13:21:55

Well said Rhubarb and I'm hoping so much that this little girl is found safe and well.

debbsyandsonn Fri 04-May-07 13:22:05

i think so jodie not sure as thats all they said the shutters were not broken

GiantSquirrelSpotter Fri 04-May-07 13:22:19

Some of the comments on here, given that we know very little about the case yet, are perfectly disgraceful imo.

What a horrible thing to do, to start getting angry with frantic, worried parents who fear the worse has happened to their child.

Honestly, sometimes I wonder about the psychological state of some poeple. Really I do.

GiantSquirrelSpotter Fri 04-May-07 13:23:16

Oh and very well said Rhubarb.

WaynettaSlob Fri 04-May-07 13:23:47

I actually feel like I'm getting a kick in the stomach everytime I think about this: my DS1 is 3. I sincerely hope she is just asleep somewhere. I feel so sorry for the poor parents - can you just imagine the amount of self blame and upset they are going through.

Please God let them find her safe and sound very soon.

Hulababy Fri 04-May-07 13:23:54

Well said Rhubarb. Just made a very similar arguement on another parenting website.

LIZS Fri 04-May-07 13:24:34

and what if by some chance the mum is a mumsnetter , perhaps not a vocal regular, but a lurker or occasional poster. Would we be so judgemental then or supportive ?

ELF1981 Fri 04-May-07 13:26:31

Oh FFS - please dont let this descend into a bloody argument. If you read ALL my posts before jumping on me, my very first post was about how I feel for the parents & hope she is found quickly.
I have NOT criticied the parents for leaving the child alone - my post to Rhubarb was just an other opinion - its human nature to hear of bad things and wrap yourself with the comfort blanket of that could never happen to you because you wouldn't do that (regardless of the fact that it could anyway).
No, I wouldn't leave my child alone, but I have never said that we should be focusing on that point and not that a poor little girl is missing.
DO NOT JUMP ON ME!

Blu Fri 04-May-07 13:27:45

Nobody has said they are angry with the parents.
people wer somply reflecting on thier own decisions.
I will probably let Ds sleep in a tent in the garden when he wants to - but i know that once a child was abducted from a tent. We all take risks. Driving children in a car is the biggest of all - we all have differnt attitudes to different situations. it isn't necessarily judgmental to state that your own attitiude is a bit different.

But it is a bit un-useful on this thread....but so is almost anything any of us can say. A child is missing, the family are distraughht, as any of us would be. What else is there?

FoghornLeghorn Fri 04-May-07 13:28:02

I still feel sick and just can't believe it - i too don't particularly want to think what her poor parents must be going through, absolutely devestating.
I too know Luz, it is a small fishing village, there are a handful of bars and a handful of restaurants. The Ocean Club is right overlooking the beach but there are a hell of a lot of other hotels/apartments and private villa's spread up the hill. The poor little girl could be anywhere by now

princessmel Fri 04-May-07 13:28:05

God this is awful

Poor family. I can't believe it was on after the election bit too RTKanga.

In the past I have left ds in a chalet while I've been in the one next door, with a moniter. At the time I was worried that someone could break in and steal ds. And now this.
Also when we have stayed in villas, we've been having a drink outside by the pool, while the lo's are asleep upstairs, with moniters. It could have happened then. It could happen in all sorts of situations . We were in the same building (well outside) but could have been the same distance away from them as this family was from Madeline.

I hope she's found quickly and safe.

NAB3 Fri 04-May-07 13:29:53

If she has been abducted did the person just so happen to find a child in a room on her own? The news has just said her parents were yards away but I have read they were further than that. I hope they find her soon. She must be terrified.

NAB3 Fri 04-May-07 13:32:27

It is on the news now.

DeviousDaffodil Fri 04-May-07 13:33:25

Sky news said the tapas bar was 40 paces from the apartment and the parents could see the door.

NAB3 Fri 04-May-07 13:33:26

No evidence of forced entry but the window was ajar.

Hulababy Fri 04-May-07 13:34:17

It is all very confusing. Now says the window was ajar, not the door. Friend says shutters were broken down. Police and hotel say no sign of break in.

Please let her be found

kittylette Fri 04-May-07 13:35:25

if they could see the door wouldnt they have seen her leave if she had wandered off??

if the window was ajar and not viable that worrying

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Re:First Reports

Date Posted:07/30/2011 12:59 PMCopy HTML

kittylette Fri 04-May-07 13:35:52

visable, not viable

FoghornLeghorn Fri 04-May-07 13:36:13

Just seeing her pciture has brought tears to me eyes She must be so bloody frightened whatever has happened to her

DrDaddy Fri 04-May-07 13:36:16

It's so shocking because it's so very rare that something like this actually happens. What's the likelihood of a stranger breaking into a hotel room, which must have caused some noise, happening to find a child on her own and being able to abduct her without her kicking up a fuss? Although this may have been what happened. However, I suspect it might be more complicated....

JodieG1 Fri 04-May-07 13:38:23

I thought at first that someone could have been watching them and waiting for an opportunity Also, I assume the other children weren't woken?

edam Fri 04-May-07 13:39:46

Oh God that poor family. Lots of people go to MW precisely because of the babysitting/listening facilities. Thousands of people. Imagine it's most likely the poor kid wandered off although getting out of the window is odd. Not impossible though, my sister climbed out of her bedroom window when she was not much older than this.

If you were a child abductor, I guess MW would be a magnet because you'd know there were lots of children on site.

tortoiseSHELL Fri 04-May-07 13:45:15

This is such a sad story, I just pray they find their little girl. My dd is 3 and blonde and starting school in September, I can't imagine what those parents are going through. It's just a worst nightmare isn't it.

Nbg Fri 04-May-07 13:47:03

Has there been anymore news on this?
I've switched on Sky news but theres nothing on atm.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 13:48:58

they just said on 5 live that the search has been called off for now.

hatrick Fri 04-May-07 13:49:17

How horrid, it says that the door was wide open but then also says the parents could see the door from the restaurant which seems odd.
What those people must be going through right now poor little girl.

DeviousDaffodil Fri 04-May-07 13:49:27

Nbg Fri 04-May-07 13:50:31

Oh god, I feel sick for the parents.

Unimaginable what they are going through right now.

ELF1981 Fri 04-May-07 13:56:18

How can they call off the search?!

DeviousDaffodil Fri 04-May-07 13:56:54

Maybe they have found her? (hope)

homemama Fri 04-May-07 13:58:11

There must be a reason why the search has been 'called off temporarily'. They don't just stop these thing to have lunch.

NAB3 Fri 04-May-07 13:58:29

They would have said they have found her and called off the search, not just called off the search.

Nbg Fri 04-May-07 13:59:33

Its coming on sky news in a minute.
Although they say the hotel staff, police and family are looking?

sandcastles Fri 04-May-07 14:00:51

This is awful...that poor family.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 14:03:21

seems it was only temperary so they could bring in sniffer dogs.

Nbg Fri 04-May-07 14:09:09

I could really weep for them

All I can think is that if the little girl did get out herself, surely someone would have seen her toddling about on her own and thought something wasnt right.

LIZS Fri 04-May-07 14:13:49

I don't know , possibly at that time of night is probably fairly usual to have lo's still up . I really hope she has wandered off and just shut herself in somewhere nearby. At that age our dd would have been beside herself

lucyellensmum Fri 04-May-07 14:17:00

i just feel desperate for this poor family and can only pray that their little girl is returned to them safe and well. My DD1 and her friend decided to "run away" when i was pregnant with dd2, DD1 was 14 at the time, she and her friend bunked off school and walked ten miles to her grans caravan and hid (bloody kids). Words cannot describe the desperation i felt at the time, even though i knew she was supposedly with a friend. When people say they are "out of their minds" with worry its true, i was almost litereally climbing the walls and just felt totally helpless and panic stricken. That girls mother must be insane with it all by now - please please let her be safe, im in tears just thinking about it, that little girl must be so frightened, i cannot bear it. This sounds trite and patronising but it is simply how i feel, my thoughts and prayers go out to the whole family, and i wish them strength.

lyrabelacqua Fri 04-May-07 14:17:51

Maybe she got lost and was up all night trying to find mummy and daddy and has fallen asleep somewhere, exhausted. I hope that's all that's happened.
I'm praying for the family and I'm not even religious.

fairyjay Fri 04-May-07 14:17:58

My prayers for the family.

quadrophenia Fri 04-May-07 14:18:32

I am praying for them too.

lucyellensmum Fri 04-May-07 14:18:48

i just heard on the radio that there were signs of forced entry to the room as the shutters on the window were smashed

Leander Fri 04-May-07 14:20:36

Praying that they find her safe and well

FoghornLeghorn Fri 04-May-07 14:29:52

That appears not to be the case lucyellensmum. What seems to have happened is when the police arrived, they slightly opened shutters & window and possibly a passerby has reported this - that is what I gather from http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2511841.ece his article anyway

FoghornLeghorn Fri 04-May-07 14:31:31

Sorry this

GiantSquirrelSpotter Fri 04-May-07 14:33:12

TBH I don't believe any reports atm.

Even the BBC. It always takes a few hours for facts to be checked etc.

Waswondering Fri 04-May-07 14:34:50

Agree Giantsquirrel - they need to be so careful about the facts, and to try and cap all the rumours which must be going about.

I really feel for them and am so sorry for their whole group - can't imagine how they feel.

DeviousDaffodil Fri 04-May-07 14:35:01

Agree Squirrel. It seems that the Police are saying very little, so much of what the press is saying is pure speculation on their behalf.
Hopefully thaere will be a press conference soon.

lyrabelacqua Fri 04-May-07 14:35:21

One of my colleagues is writing this story (that was his copy on the Indy link). I'll let you all know asap if I find anything more out.

lyrabelacqua Fri 04-May-07 14:36:33

Most of the info is coming from talking to people (hotel manager, family, other guests etc), not just being made up by the reporters.

GiantSquirrelSpotter Fri 04-May-07 14:38:32

Yes, but the eye witnesses are speculating as well.

And people who are interviewed mostly want to be helpful/ knowledgable, so sometimes over-state what they know.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 14:38:34

the bbc are only allowed to report from sources that have been double-checked, so the bbc is most likely to be the most accurate source of information. the police appear to be unwilling to comment at this stage.

wheresthevalium Fri 04-May-07 14:43:37

I feel sor sorry for the parents, God alone knows how they must be feeling.

I still get a sick feeling when I remember my DD2 disappearing from my side at a shopping centre for 20 minutes, which pales into nothing next to this

utterMadness Fri 04-May-07 14:44:30

If she’d wandered off she would have been found by now. If they’re still using dogs I would imagine they’re most likely looking for a body.

If she had been abducted for any other reason than a sinister one, who ever had abducted her would be long gone by now and almost certainly not still in the resort or surrounding village. Anyone who is calculated enough to carry out an abduction like this is intelligent enough to leave the area as soon as possible. But I very much doubt she’s still alive if she’s been taken.

paulaplumpbottom Fri 04-May-07 15:04:56

This has made me teary all day. My own DD is this age. It just doesn't bear thinking about. I hope she is ok. I hope she is not to scared and I hope her mom is holding it together. I don't think I could.

lucyellensmum Fri 04-May-07 15:12:57

foghorn, i heard this on radio two from a relative but lets pray that things have been mis interpreted because this news shattered my hopes that it was less sinister. Of course, the media always misprepresents things in an effort to be first with the news i know that. But what is important is this beautiful little girl and we must all pray that she will be safe. We can do that can't we?

lucyellensmum Fri 04-May-07 15:14:07

uttermadness, i can only pray that you are wrong, this is the worse fear and we must not allow it to be in our thoughts at this stage.

Mumpbump Fri 04-May-07 15:21:56

I feel terribly sorry for the family, but leaving children of that age unattended in a hotel room is not acceptable, imo. They must feel terrible, poor things.

paulaplumpbottom Fri 04-May-07 15:22:45

I agree I can't believe people do this. So careless. They don't deserve this though

Rhubarb Fri 04-May-07 15:23:59

Mumpbump - we've already addressed that issue. There's no point coming onto a thread like this if you are going to tut tut the parents. Those comments don't help anybody so why make them?

expatinscotland Fri 04-May-07 15:25:24

I have a little girl this age.

Watch her like a hawk.

She's very tall and comely and so sticks out.

Mumpbump Fri 04-May-07 15:25:59

I haven't had time to read the whole thread and didn't mean to sound abrupt, but dh and I regularly debate whether we can leave his children (13 and 9) at home even for 15 minutes and have always so far concluded that we can't because the risk of a fire or something. I'm not tut-tutting, I am just gob-smacked! And it must make them feel even worse about an awful situation.

Rhubarb Fri 04-May-07 15:27:35

Sorry to repeat myself but....

"Has anyone ever left their children in the garden playing whilst they were in the house? Good grief someone could have snatched your child from over the fence!

Or perhaps your child has slept in a tent in the garden - how irresponsible! Or in a crowded playground whilst you chatted with other mothers?

Oh how easy it is to point the finger whilst smugly smothering your own children.

I have left my children asleep in a hotel room with a baby alarm whilst me and dh have had a drink in the bar. It's a risk you take but the chances of them being abducted are slimmer than them being run over whilst holding your hand on a pedestrian crossing.

A paedo who had abducted and killed a girl was once asked if there was anything the mother could have done to have prevented him kidnapping the girl (from a busy fairground whilst the mother was distracted), he replied, maybe if the girl had been strapped to her mother, but then again he mused, he would have probably just killed the mother too.

We don't know what went on here. But I suggest all the smugger than thous take a hike and hope to goodness that nothing happens to their precious charges one day that will make them rethink their judgementalist attitudes.

And I'm sure we all sincerely hope that this girl is found safe and sound. The parents must be going through hell, without the added insult of being judged on their parenting skills."

And now let's all concentrate our efforts in praying for the little girls safe return shall we?

I shall repeat myself to anyone else who thinks they are qualified to start stoning these poor anguished parents.

FioFio Fri 04-May-07 15:27:48

Message deleted

Mumpbump Fri 04-May-07 15:28:52

Didn't notice from the article that they had a baby alarm/monitor with them, but perhaps I read it too quickly...

homemama Fri 04-May-07 15:33:00

Yes Fio and as I said earlier, even if she was out on the lash she must be going through hell. Time for compassion not judgements.

piglit Fri 04-May-07 15:34:04
LilyLoo Fri 04-May-07 15:34:47

To be fair i wouldn't doubt anybody isn't 100% compassionate on here to the family and all hope to god she is found safe and well. These situations will always bring uo the what ifs and obviously hindsight is a great thing.

Mumpbump Fri 04-May-07 15:36:49

I did say I didn't mean to sound abrupt, but I am still gob-smacked. As I previously said, I imagine it must make what is a terrible situation even worse for them because if they don't find her, they will always feel that they should have been able to prevent it and that is a life sentence I would not wish on anyone...

Nbg Fri 04-May-07 15:38:22

Well said Rhubarb.

I hope with all my might that she is found very very soon, safe and well.

Mumpbump Fri 04-May-07 15:44:41

And for the record, Rhubarb - I think it's a bit hypocritical to say the least of you to tell me off for being judgmental whilst referring to my parenting skills as being the equivalent of "smugly smothering". Aren't you sitting in judgment on parents like me?

noddyholder Fri 04-May-07 15:47:29

Not really a time to pass judgement They must be going through hell we have all been through the 'what ifs'in situations much less serious than this.

lyrabelacqua Fri 04-May-07 15:48:03

I don't think smugly smothering was directed at you Mumpbump. That post was written a while back and repeated.

Bananaknickers Fri 04-May-07 15:48:40

i hope this little girl is found safe and well.
Puts all the fights on mumsnet into perspective dosen't it ?

GiantSquirrelSpotter Fri 04-May-07 15:53:10

Jesus, how can you say it is "unacceptable" to leave a child alone in a hotel room? That is why people go on Mark Warner holidays, precisely because that is the service MW offer. So should we prosecute the firm for encouraging parents to be unacceptable?

Of course, you could leave your child alone in their bedroom and someone could break in and kidnap them, or they could go wandering. And self-righteous uncompassionate people would doubtless find a way to blame you.

utterMadness Fri 04-May-07 16:03:47

According to ITN, the hotel had baby listening facilities but the parents chose not to make use of them. I find this strange tbh. It’s one thing to leave your child asleep in a hotel room while you have a meal a couple of hundred yards away, if you have a baby monitor or child listening facility so that you know that if any of the children wake up you can attend to them immediately, but why would you put your children to sleep in a hotel room and go for a meal with no means of knowing if they had woken up or not?

Aside from the worry of them being abducted, which is, quite frankly, something which is highly unlikely, there is the greater likelihood of one of them waking up and crying, and if you were that far away you just wouldn’t know that your child was crying until you went to check on them half an hour later.

I don’t necessarily think this is about casting judgement, but when a child goes missing and it transpires that that child had been left unsupervised in a hotelroom with the ability to get out and the parents were not listening out to make sure that everything was ok, then it automatically follows that people will ask why a parent would do that.

You cannot compare that to letting a child play out in your garden, or a child slipping away in a public place. That’s the sort of thing that can happen in a split second and is something over which a parent generally has no control. And someone breaking into your house while your child is asleep is very different to someone breaking into a hotelroom while you’re not even there.

Mw offer the service but the parents had chosen not to use it, so yes, leaving a child alone in a hotel room without the ability to know that that child is ok is unacceptable. But the parents will most likely have to live with that decision for the rest of their lives, and I have no doubt that the question of whether children should be left in hotelrooms will be asked many a time after this case has been resolved.

homemama Fri 04-May-07 16:10:35

Everything you say may well be true, but IMO now is not the time for such debates.

RedLorryYellowLorry Fri 04-May-07 16:11:29

Not sure which channel but it was reported MW had a babysitting service where you drop children off in night clothes etc to be watched so not a listening service. The family however had not used the service. The children were probably really good sleepers and this service didn't suit them. Then this happens - christ . I hope there's some good new soon .

boyslovegranny Fri 04-May-07 16:19:30

I can't imagine the gut-wrench they must have felt when they looked in and saw she wasn't there
When we all put our little ones to bed tonight we should say a positive prayer for Madeleine and count our blessings.

ruty Fri 04-May-07 16:21:44

a parent's worst nightmare. I just hope somehow she is ok.

Whoooosh Fri 04-May-07 16:22:40

Been out for a few hours-no sign of her being found "asleep behind a bush" then?

Saturn74 Fri 04-May-07 16:23:41

I completely agree with NoddyHolder's post;

"Not really a time to pass judgement They must be going through hell we have all been through the 'what ifs'in situations much less serious than this."

And also DeviousDaffoldil's post:

"Maybe we should wait for the full facts before we start judging."

I hope there is a positive outcome to this dreadful situation very soon.

Mumpbump Fri 04-May-07 16:35:41

Why post a thread if you don't want it to be debated? Or why not title it "3 year old lost in Algarve - sympathy only please" if you want to limit the scope of the discussion you're inviting?

I think it goes without saying that everyone hopes the little girl turns up safely and unharmed...

PeterAndreFanCLub Fri 04-May-07 16:36:23

that is a perennial q on sad threads
it is a terrible storya dn one we all fel could haev been us
lets just htink hopeful htoughts.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 16:36:51

Apparently there’s a helicopter flying over the resort now, which has been described by the bbc correspondent as a bad sign.

RedLorryYellowLorry Fri 04-May-07 16:38:15

noddyholder Fri 04-May-07 16:38:37

mumpbumo the op isn't suggesting we debate anything it is merely reporting the news.Why are you so adamant on starting an argument over something so tragic

FioFio Fri 04-May-07 16:40:23

Message deleted

ScoobyDooooo Fri 04-May-07 16:42:36

Truly, truly tragic i hope & pray the little girl comes back safe

tiredemma Fri 04-May-07 16:43:25

Here I am. I started the thread early this morning- not with any intention of a debate about it, and I feel looking at my thread title that did 'over-sensationalise' a bit.

I just quickly typed in exactly what I had heard that KAte Garraway woman say on GMTV.

Had I waited before I started the thread, I would have title it '3yr old missing on algarve' without the OMG! bit and the 'abducted' thrown in.

The thread title- like the news has sensationalised it I feel, and I wish I had waited to write it, get my facts right and not over dramatise the whole thing.

But lets not turn it into a debate over whether her parents are at fault, thats cruel and insesitive.

hatrick Fri 04-May-07 16:44:28

I don't think it is even worth discussing the rights and wrongs of the parent's choices , there is a little girl out there somewhere who has either been killed or is doubtless frightened, confused and wanting her parents..........she is what counts not arguing the toss about what her parents did or didn't do.

Mumpbump Fri 04-May-07 16:45:19

I'm don't particularly want to start an argument, but if you post a thread for open discussion which involves what seems to be a potentially contraversial parenting decision on a parenting forum, I just don't understand why people then try to stop people from discussing it by saying things like "this is not the time for such and such discussion".

gingersj Fri 04-May-07 16:50:16

So I have been on these types of holidays, Mark Warner, Sunsail, all are the same....

You leave your kids in the room hopefully asleep whilst you go to the restaurant and eat....carers go around and listen at the door every 20 minutes and come and get you at the first sign of trouble...

Now, without naming names, the one I went on in Greece was terrible. We were all sitting at dinner and a little one (3 or 4) came wandering down to find her mum....this was because the kids could open the door from the inside regardless of how it was locked...this was not safe and I reported it as a problem...all you need is some little kid walking out and into the pool

Anyway, reading the news it looks a whole lot more sinister than this with the shutters having been forced apparently. What I am mystified about is at all of these resorts they normally have security guards on duty at the entrance to stop the locals coming in.....

I just hope they find her safe and well. It is my worst nightmare and given we are going in 4 weeks to a similar resort, we are panicking....

JoPG Fri 04-May-07 17:07:26

I have been to the Ocean Club where this terrible incident has occured. The trouble with it is that it is not a 'campus style' resort as such. Some of the apartments are in a village setting and the roads that they are on are not private and are not part of the Mark Warner resort. You could not put guards at the gates and ensure that all the cars that passed by were guests of the resort.
Mark Warner simply rent part of the Ocean Club for their use, other parts of it are privately owned.
Obviously i do not know exectly where the aprtment was that this family were staying in, but some apartments would be more secure than others.

FoghornLeghorn Fri 04-May-07 17:16:08

mumpbump - no-one is doubting that there is a debate about wether to leave children in a hotel room (or the like) and pop out - the 'discussion' has happened many a time on mumsnet but the fact is A 3 YEAR OLD GIRL IS MISSING AND NOW IS NOT THE TIME TO HAVE THE DEBATE.

I don't usually go by this but this has really touched me, I have a near 3 year old DD with long blonde hair, I know the area very very well, my brother used to live there and we have family friends there, this whole is a little too close for comfort for me so please if you are going to start a debate about it can you please do it on another thread so others who are mainly concerned about this little girls wellfare and not pointing the finger can stick here.

apeainapod Fri 04-May-07 17:20:49

I think that Mark Warner could have been a little more compassionate on their website.

It just makes you realise how precious these little ones are - even when we argue with them for being naughty.

I do so hope that the family have some news soon.

Whoooosh Fri 04-May-07 17:21:24

And there was me worrying about what people would thinkof me taking the annny on holiday-sadly Iam absolutely sure I made the right decision now

EmmyLou Fri 04-May-07 17:24:45

A friend of mine used to work in the same hospital department as the mother (who is a doctor) of this little girl. Makes me feel sick just thinking about it. I can't imagine how the family must be feeling. Their twin boys were asleep in the same room and they could see the apartment door from the restaurant. I can imagine how you can get lulled into a sense of security in these places - or even at home FGS, there was a girl taken from her bath not long ago.

I have heard that they think this was planned and the little girl was targeted after having been watched for a few days. My mind goes numb at the thought of how you would possibly cope with such an event.

FoghornLeghorn Fri 04-May-07 18:52:18

God I feel heartbroken after watching the news

Enid Fri 04-May-07 18:55:43

i hate the fact that they mention that the parents are doctors

why do they do that

oranges Fri 04-May-07 18:57:00

to show they are middle class and respectable, and therefore It Could Happen To Anyone (including tv presenters and journalists)

mountaingirl Fri 04-May-07 18:57:57

Those poor parents. It's evening time there now and still no sign of that beautiful little girl, I feel so sorry for them and I so hope the outcome is good and not the awful one it looks like it is turning out to be. I'll just keep praying for her.

Nbg Fri 04-May-07 18:59:00

So still no news?

Blu Fri 04-May-07 18:59:47

because they haven't got anything else to say...and people are desparate fo0r news, news, news.

ekra Fri 04-May-07 19:05:07

It sounds like the apartment was broken into via a window and the girl taken discretely out of the back out of sight of the parents - who were said to be 50 metres away and in sight of the front door to the apratment.

Really, the parents could have been on the terrace of a 3-roomed ground floor apartment, listening to music, and someone could have broken into the back of a child's room. This could have happened anywhere, to anyone, in any manner of setting.

makkapakka Fri 04-May-07 19:05:16

God, it must have been whatever evil bastard/s did this had been watching her/them. SO SO terrible, what is wrong with people?

FoghornLeghorn Fri 04-May-07 19:06:23

No update at all NBG - apart from Madeline's aunt saying that Dad went back to check and everything was fine, mum went back half hour later, window was open and shutters were pulled up - they weren't left like that when Dad left half an hour earlier

ekra Fri 04-May-07 19:07:17

Actually Enid , I see your point. I do think this couple have been given more slack on the news coverage than a less middle class couple would have. Radio news keeps stressing how close the parents were to the room and how often they checked on her as if to emphasise that they were not neglectful parents. I'm not sure that grace would be offered to some other types of parents.

Still, it's not the parents fault how the news is reported.

makkapakka Fri 04-May-07 19:08:45

just can't bear to think of how they must be feeling - last year I went to get dd up and she wasn't in our bed in our (new) house. I went from room to room, calling and slowly starting to panic - was starting to scream her name and ds was crying with shock at how scared I sounded when I saw her hiding in the laundry bin.

It's just unbearable. I just hope maybe some childless, disturbed woman has snatched her rather than the alternative

Nbg Fri 04-May-07 19:08:52

Thanks Foghorn

Its sickening, it really is. Those poor poor parents.
I wonder if anything came up with the fingerprints.

AttilaTheMeerkat Fri 04-May-07 19:11:43

I fear the worst has already happened to this child and that this missing person enquiry will become a murder investigation.

I feel that if this child was not targetted by child traffickers then she has been abducted by someone intent on doing her harm.

VeronicaMars Fri 04-May-07 19:15:24

Some people will say the parents have been neglectful and others won't. In all news stories along these lines they always report on the circumstances and the 'what ifs' because they don't have any new info on the situation. All that matters at the moment is that there is a 3 year old little girl missing and her parents must feel like they are in hell right now. My heart goes out to them. I hope she is found safe and well.

hippipotami Fri 04-May-07 19:17:26

If she was taken, then it was very coldly calculated, the child must have been watched for a day or so, and the abductor must have been hiding nearby so as not to co-incide with parental visits to the room.

It makes my blood run cold, I feel for these parents.

But I do wish the media would stop harping on about them being doctors/specialists.
If it had been shop assistant and milkman then would they have been treated so favourable?

Either way, I hope they get some sort of outcome soon, preferable a positive one.
The worst case would be if she was never found like that boy Ben. Personally that would be my worst nightmare, worse than a body

Those poor poor parents

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Re:First Reports

Date Posted:07/30/2011 1:02 PMCopy HTML

bayleaf Fri 04-May-07 19:20:52

I don't know Madeleine's parents but she goes to the same nursery as my dd and I have good friends who do know them and her. They are delightful, 'normal' thoughtful, very caring, parents.
Clearly, with hindsight, it turns out they were 'wrong' to do as they did here but which of us, as many people have said, have NEVER done anything that, however unlikely, could POSSIBLY have led to something tragic happening....It is truly hideous.

trice Fri 04-May-07 19:21:21

I hope she is OK. I'm praying for her.

LucyJones Fri 04-May-07 19:23:26

hippi - I don't think they are being treated favourably, they are being treated compassionately
bayleaf - I really don't see that they were 'wrong' as you put it

Some of the comments on this thread are really upsetting

noddyholder Fri 04-May-07 19:29:41

This was not an opportunist so I think the fact that she was taken from her room was probably as a result of her being watched.It could easily have been a playground as people who do this sort of thing are persistent.And how many of us have had a coffee at the park and not watched our LO's 100% This is so tragic I really hope they find her

bayleaf Fri 04-May-07 19:31:17

I put wrong in inverted commas .... I simply meant that however safe she seemed - she clearly WASN'T. So I don't necessarily think the decision to leave her was wrong per se - simply that it turned out to have horrendous consequences, so with hindsight it was the 'wrong' decision.
BUt we can't live our lives with hindsight. Most of us make decisions everyday which, with hindsight, could be regretted and called 'wrong'.

lapsedrunner Fri 04-May-07 19:32:08

Channel 4 news just said this was at a Mark Warner resort...

hippipotami Fri 04-May-07 19:32:41

It is really scary, to think there are people out there, preying on our kids...

Am I assuming the search has now been widened to beyond the resort? Unfortunately nearly 20 hours on, they could be anywhere by now...

Hulababy Fri 04-May-07 19:33:06

Yes, right from the start is said a MW resort.

Nbg Fri 04-May-07 19:33:20

The thought of someone watching a small child with a view to abducting them makes me want to vomit.

I so hope that she has just wondered off and shes curled up under something somewhere.

oxocube Fri 04-May-07 19:34:13

Am so with Rhubarb on this. It could have hapened to any of us, to any of our children. Lets just pray she is found unharmed and quickly. I can't imagine the hell the parents must be going through.

lapsedrunner Fri 04-May-07 19:34:42

Sorry , behind the curve, just seen we already knew the tour operator

hippipotami Fri 04-May-07 19:34:57

I really don't want to be the voice of doom, but if she wandered off, nearly 20 hours ago, and fell asleep, surely she must have woken up by now, started crying, and people must have seen/heard her...

The only way she can so completely vanish is to assume abduction

LilyLoo Fri 04-May-07 19:40:51

Cannot believe there is still no news. How quickly we forget that it's always possible for this to happen to anyone from any walk of life in any circumstance.

doyouwantfrieswiththat Fri 04-May-07 19:47:38

any thoughts

Intriguingly, one Briton who runs a company in the Algarve has told police he spotted a couple carrying a young child early on Friday.

George Burke, from Liverpool, was driving back home from nearby Lagos around 6am when he caught the two people in his car headlights.

"I couldn't see them clearly because it was dark and windy. They scurried down a side road and out of sight.

"I thought it odd to see a couple carrying a child at that time of the morning , but I didn't think anything more about it until I heard about the missing girl."

ledodgy Fri 04-May-07 19:48:10

Our local paper says the shutters in the room were smashed it doesn't sound like she wandered off. That poor family and that poor girl if she is still ok she must be so frightened right now.

TwoIfBySea Fri 04-May-07 19:50:53

The parents must feel as though their heart as been ripped out. Still no news, still no sign and another night on its way.

I probably have smothered my dts with being over careful, I wouldn't leave them alone in a hotel room, particularly one next to a road like that. But that isn't saying that the parents shouldn't have done so, that was their choice to make and for whatever reason they didn't use the facility provided by the hotel. You can't have an issue like this and not expect people to discuss it and have differing opinions, that is a bit naive.

Every mother (and father) hearing that story will have all the emotions of the subject Every Parents Nightmare and should be allowed to comfort themselves even if some think that is being smug.

LilyLoo Fri 04-May-07 19:55:15

oh god it's all so more real when you see the pictures.

hippipotami Fri 04-May-07 19:59:30

It is horrible. Re the shutters - was it not the police who damaged the shutters? (for reasons only known to them?)

And every news report is different, the restaurant is said to have been anything from 40 yards to 200 yards from the room where little Madeleine was sleeping.

And now the sighting of two adults carrying a child in the early hours of the morning?

I hope hope hope she is found soon, alive and well, albeit upset and hungry.
But it has been a while now

ELF1981 Fri 04-May-07 20:17:50

Keep watching the news for some good news but not happening

makkapakka Fri 04-May-07 20:23:41

when they say a couple, do they mean a man/woman?

ELF1981 Fri 04-May-07 20:26:52

god it gets worse doesn't it

JustBonnie Fri 04-May-07 20:26:59

Poor, poor family. Can't even begin to imagine what they must be going through. Please let her be found soon

doyouwantfrieswiththat Fri 04-May-07 20:30:45

I hope it is some mad childless couple because they're more likely to treat her well.

she has a really distinctive black splodge in her eye that you couldn't easily disguise.

like everyone else here I'm praying she'll be found...alive.

FoghornLeghorn Fri 04-May-07 20:32:45

Shit ! That doesn't sound good at all, especially at that time of the morning.

LilyLoo Fri 04-May-07 20:34:38

Never noticed that do you want at least that somethign for people to look out for if it is an abduction.

FoghornLeghorn Fri 04-May-07 20:36:49

I keep going to look at my DD1 in bed and thinking about how terrified that poor little mite must be

littlemissbossy Fri 04-May-07 20:38:40

I too hope it's just some childless couple who will feel enough guilt to give her back, can't imagine what her parents are going through and she herself must be terrified.
Lot's of MNers have asked about Mark Warner on here and I couldn't help wonder if her mother is one of us

NotanOtter Fri 04-May-07 20:51:29

if i had someone to pray to i would x

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 21:09:05

The report about the couple carrying the child wasn’t reported on bbc so guessing it’s not been substantiated. The timing doesn’t tie in though, if she was abducted at 10:00 they wouldn’t still be wandering the streets with her at 6:00 the next morning, they would have got out as soon as possible. Sadly when something like this happens, there are always unsubstantiated reports of apparent sightings etc which turn out to be wrong, when holly and Jessica disappeared someone reportedly saw them next to a motorway the morning after and this was treated as a major lead but was later discounted.

Something about this still doesn’t add up to me. Why would someone target that specific child, in a holiday resort? There are far, far easier places to abduct a child, I could even see someone watching her during the day and snatching her from a playground/the pool, but to do it at night would mean the family must have been being watched almost 24/7, and I just can’t see that happening with a random abduction by a desperate childless couple/someone who was going to sell the child to a desperate childless couple. I would absolutely not be surprised if this is someone who was known to the family.

lyrabelacqua Fri 04-May-07 21:13:41

The snatchers could have been lying low for a few hours then moved her when they thought there was a good opportunity. Who knows. And there are dozens of reasons why someone would target a specific child, some that are too horrible to think about.

LilyLoo Fri 04-May-07 21:15:09

it is odd i agre and tbh if it was a childless couple surely it would have been far easier to abduct a baby.
I too fear it was an innocent thing that man saw.

noddyholder Fri 04-May-07 21:16:24

I was wondering if it could be someone on teh complex too.How else could they have known timings etc.Apparently she was asleep between her twin siblings

debbsyandsonn Fri 04-May-07 21:20:29

terrible this gets worse please please please god let them find their little girl safe.

rabbleraiser Fri 04-May-07 21:22:19

NotanOtter - just pray anyway. It all gets out there, in the ether.

LilyLoo Fri 04-May-07 21:24:18

it's only just short of 24 hours now why is there no news

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 21:31:02

lyrabelacqua but if it was someone on the outside it would be almost impossible to target one specific child, because to do that the family would need to be watched for a number of days to establish their movements, i.e. when they would be most likely to leave the child in a position where she was able to be snatched. Also, as it’s a resort, someone targeting that child couldn’t possibly know how long the family were staying for, they could have their eye on the child today, and the family could leave tomorrow iyswim.

I’m confused as to why the police are refusing to say anything, not even a statement to confirm a child has gone missing. I wonder if they have more information, whether it’s closer to home, i.e. someone known to the family but that they can’t release this info. or worse case that the parents have been arrested but that some law in portugal can't confirm this? bbc did say the parents have spent the entire day at the police station "helping the police piece together what happened". and no I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but it wouldn't be the first time parents were arrested following an abduction, even if they're released after.

Strangely the parents’ ages are being reported differently in different news sources, bbc saying they are 46, and dm/sun (those most reliable of news sources ) saying they’re 38. I appreciate a lot of what’s being reported is rumour and speculation due to the lack of information from the police, but you’d think they could all at least get the ages right?

LilyLoo Fri 04-May-07 21:35:03

likewise wannabe the movements that night could have been enough to alert a chancer with the parents coming and going every 30 min.

it could be hotel staff and someone alerted by hotel staff. you just never know.

poor poor people. i feel like vomiting when i try and imagine how they must be feeling.

ruddynorah Fri 04-May-07 21:38:09

dd's keyworker at nursery left last month to go and be a nanny for MW at this resort

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 21:39:13

possibly but it would be a huge chance, they would still have to know there were children in the apartment and how would they know that if they hadn't already seen them? and why the elder of the two girls, why not the twin girl who was younger, and probably easier to scoop out of a cot? nothing in the apartment was taken, so whoever it was would have broken in with the express purpose of abducting a child, and you wouldn't know what children, what ages were in there unless you had already seen them previously.

LilyLoo Fri 04-May-07 21:41:21

god i daren't go and think about this any further the reality is too awful to contemplate. It really is a minute by minute hope that gets fader as each one passes. Her poor poor parents.

VeniVidiVickiQV Fri 04-May-07 21:41:52

This is so awful, my thoughts are with the family, they must be going out of their minds. This is every parent's worst nightmare.

My heart is heavy for them. I hope they find her safe and well.

lyrabelacqua Fri 04-May-07 21:43:12

Hey, don't knock the Mirror, my DP writes for them.
I read sometime this moning that the police had information that they weren't releasing because it was of a sensitive nature. Maybe that's why they haven't made a statement.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 21:45:31

the way it was written on the bbc was that it was sensitive because it was a child. it could be of a sensitive nature, ie not reportable, but possible that the portugese don't report on children to protect them perhaps?

lyrabelacqua Fri 04-May-07 21:54:11

Ah well, it's all just speculation. i guess we'll know the truth eventually but hopefully sooner rather than later, as there's more chance she'll be found alive that way.

sorkycake Fri 04-May-07 22:12:58

My God how absolutely dreadful, I feel quite sick. We don't live too far from the little girl who was taken from her bath last year
My thoughts are with the family and I truly hope she is found safe and well.
I just wanted to add that I think I agree with Wannabe, something sadly doesn't seem 'right'. Surely if it was a straight forward abduction then the police would issue a statement enlisting the help of local people to be out and about looking for her IYKWIM. I don't know what to think tbh, I just feel sick.

littlemissbossy Fri 04-May-07 22:19:39

OMG
Just seen her parents appealing for her safe return on BBC

NotanOtter Fri 04-May-07 22:20:10

jesus that was heart wrenching

sorkycake Fri 04-May-07 22:23:39

Oh that was awful to watch, I don't think I can watch it anymore on the news. The statement sounded as if they are appealing for her return though so maybe they think she is still alive, or that too much to hope for?

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 22:24:44

I would have thought that one of the other people that was on holiday with them would have issued some sort of statement? or at least have spoken to the media in some way, but the only people who have spoken to them are the friend/family in this country.

LilyLoo Fri 04-May-07 22:25:04

guess you never give up hope until it's gone !

NotanOtter Fri 04-May-07 22:25:47

i think she is alive

paulaplumpbottom Fri 04-May-07 22:26:38

Unless they know otherwise why wouldn't they think she is alive. Although I wonder if these appeals ever help and it puts the parents through so much

noddyholder Fri 04-May-07 22:26:50

Why?NAO

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 22:26:53

parents nearly always make appeals like that though when a child goes missing. I guess one always clings to the hope that the child is alive until you learn otherwise. tbh I think I would rather know my child was dead than not ever knowing what might have happened to it, like Ben Needham who went missing all those years ago.

paulaplumpbottom Fri 04-May-07 22:27:59

It sounds crazy but I feel the same. Not knowing would be to awful to contemplate. You would spend your whole life searching, wondering what god awful things are they going through.

GiantSquirrelSpotter Fri 04-May-07 22:28:38

It's very difficult to know what would be more dreadful wannabe. Hope or closure - what's better?

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 22:29:56

I think also there's some thinking that if the abductyor sees the parents, and what they're putting them through, that there's a chance it might prick their conscience into returning the child. it's harder to stay unemotional/unfeeling about it if you see the distress of the parents, I'm talking an abductor who might be a desperate childless person as opposed to the perverted kind though..

LilyLoo Fri 04-May-07 22:30:34

Although i suppose they always cling to the fact that he has never been hurt and is with a family who loves him unlike holly's dad who said he can never get over the fact that he should have been there when she really needed him as dads should

NotanOtter Fri 04-May-07 22:31:19

i just think that she is..poor lamb

LucyJones Fri 04-May-07 22:31:23

that was awful to watch. i guess an appeal like that makes everyone in that area rack their brains for anything they might have seen

LilyLoo Fri 04-May-07 22:32:46

agree lucy i think seeing the pictures released at home makes it seem more real and if i was out there i would def be involved in the search if i could.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 22:34:58

but at this point in time what hope could the public be really. you couldn't still be searching the area, if she's been abducted and is still alive she will be long gone, possibly over the border to god knows where. if it's the loqal area you were searching it would be a body you'd be searching for, and selfish as this sounds, i sure as hell wouldn't want to be the one that discovered that.

sorkycake Fri 04-May-07 22:35:09

Oh NAO I hope you're right.
Are they searching the surrounding area now?

DrippingLizzie Fri 04-May-07 22:35:58

I don't know whether I want to watch the parents' appeal as all this is just upsetting me too much. I couldn't watch any footage of the Beslan siege for the same reason. I feel almost cowardly for effectively sticking my fingers in my ears but I just find it so hard to deal with, particularly since I've become a parent.

LucyJones Fri 04-May-07 22:37:21

wannabe - surely to know is the best thing. Te public can assist in finding out if she has been abducted, abd if she has, who did it so they can never do it again.

LilyLoo Fri 04-May-07 22:37:54

i suppose the public appeal is more about getting the attention i guess and the exposure.

mum2sons Fri 04-May-07 22:38:31

This is just awful, those poor parents. My heart goes out to them. I just saw the mum on the news. I cannot even imagine how they must be feeling.

I hope they find her soon.

By the way, it makes me feel a bit sick that anyone can judge them...please can we not do that?

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 22:41:19

oh yes of course, but often in the aftermath of these things, ie when the initial rush to search has warn off, there really isn't a lot the general public can do, because the area is usually swamped with police/dogs that the public sometimes are more of a hinderence than a help so the best thing to do is to stay back and leave the police to do their job. at this stage of the game, they're not going to find a crying little girl, if she's still alive she will be with someone, and that someone will be making very sure she's not discovered. And if she's not alive, in a fishing village, a body is all too easy to get rid of sadly.

JodieG1 Fri 04-May-07 22:44:58

I feel so sorry for that poor child, surely she can't be hiding somewhere or asleep this far on I do think that someone could more easily target a child at those resorts as they are left alone so maybe it was still a fairly opportunistic thing. Could be someone was watching to see the easiest place to go Haven't seen any news reports as yet.

LilyLoo Fri 04-May-07 22:46:35

i only caught back end of news report but guessing it was no news just an appeal. Oh dear wbe i hope that's not true. It's just been toolong to find her wandering though i agree

jampot Fri 04-May-07 22:48:01

im wondering if babylistening was on offer then presumably its a bit of a risk to go into a room to steal a child unless you know there to be no baby listening going on?


I hope she's found soon ... alive and well.

SherlockLGJ Fri 04-May-07 22:50:30

I have resisted posting all day on this.

According to the BBC, her parents had rejected the baby listening service.

And.............I am sorry I am going to be judgmental here. There was a great big fuck off hedge between the dining area and the villa.


Presuming the BBC were accurate that is just too shocking for words.

noddyholder Fri 04-May-07 22:51:36

Sherlock true but not the time surely?

JodieG1 Fri 04-May-07 22:52:31

jampot but from what I've read on here it was one nanny per floor that went round every 15 mins? Or was there some sort of monitor available too?

LilyLoo Fri 04-May-07 22:54:37

Sherlock you not the only one many others said they didn't use listening service either but they have to live with that decision.

WendyWeber Fri 04-May-07 22:54:37

As I read it the baby listening service, unlike a Mark Warner hotel, was a creche thing - instead they chose to leave their children sleeping in their own beds, on the reasonable assumption that they would be better there than presumably picked up and moved hours later.

The hotel listening service would not necessarily have precluded this anyway.

This is every parent's worst nightmare and presumably could also have happened during the night while the parents slept in the next room?

Please don't judge.

SherlockLGJ Fri 04-May-07 22:58:29

Noddy

I will not fall out with you about this and tonight there are parents aching/grieving for their baby, but on my radar the risk assesment would have not ticked any boxes.

All day I have been thinking ...... a restaurant 100 yards from the villa and you can see the villa, well maybe just maybe for a quick drink but not a meal.

Did you see the BBC report ?

SherlockLGJ Fri 04-May-07 23:00:15

You are all quite correct.

But when I saw that hedge my stomach turned over. I will not post any further on this thread.

JodieG1 Fri 04-May-07 23:00:30

Was is the listening service? Still not sure.

lyrabelacqua Fri 04-May-07 23:12:18

Something like this could have happened even if someone else had been asleep in the room. Remember Caroline Dickinson? She was in a room full of people and still some perv rapes and kills her. Lets not blame the parents when they're going through something none of us can even imagine.

sandcastles Fri 04-May-07 23:20:59

On waking this morning my first thoughts were with this family. I woke early & couldn't get back to sleep, needing to know of any new news. I came on here to see what, if anything you all knew.

But nothing....

Not even on BBCWorld....they are more interested how some foriegn branch of Tesco uses solar power as it's sole electricity source.

I pray they are reunited soon.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Fri 04-May-07 23:23:04

but you can't compare something like this happening with if it had happened when the parents were asleep in the room next door. if someone breaks into your house while you're there, you're there, and the chances of it happening and you not hearing and being able to prevent someone taking your child are remote at the very least. but if you're not even there you are not even in a position to prevent it from happening.

they chose not to use the baby listening service. why? they ate in a restaurant where they could not see the apartment, why? In the papers they have been described as extremely protective parents, so why would they suddenly throw all caution to the wind and leave their children alone, unsupervised, in a place where they could neither see nor hear them? this whole case has something extremely sinister about it. none of what has been reported makes sense. Why would such devoted parents, who have been reported as never letting their children out of their sight suddenly do so in a strange place? unless this wasn't a straightforward abduction...

mommajools Fri 04-May-07 23:30:19

i think peoples guard goes down on holiday - lots of friendy staff around etc
how long were they at the resort before this happeded?

GiantSquirrelSpotter Fri 04-May-07 23:35:39

Oh FGS wannabe, what are you suggesting? That the parents were complicit in their child's abduction? You are using extremely emotive language ("caution to the winds") and it sounds as if you think the parents are involved. Am I reading too much into your posts?

TwoIfBySea Fri 04-May-07 23:37:29

On BBC24 the reporter showed exactly where the apartment was compared to the restaurant. You could not have kept an eye on the place from the restaurant, not just a big hedge but several large bushes and a wall between it and the apartment. The apartment was right next to what looks like a busy road and the window the police were at was at the back of the building.

Sorry, hard to not be judgemental, that would have had every alarmbell I have ringing no way to leaving dts there. Accuse me of smothering them if you will but at 5 I think they are still too young to be left alone. Definitely would never have considered it at age 3 and under, not just for abduction but what about fire too?

This is totally different from that recent case locally where the 3 year old slipped out of her back garden to the play park behind and unfortunately died in an accident on the slide. That was a case where it was a tragic accident.

sorkycake Fri 04-May-07 23:39:13

Wannabe Dh & I have just been discussing those points and I do feel a little unsettled about the reports, but maybe that's the lack of info being released.
Is it possible she knew the person, I wonder and that's why noone noticed anything unusual?
Goodness only knows what she's going through
We don't even use the kids clubs during the day, but I guess we're odd. I wonder if there were others in their party checking on the kids.

totaleclipse Fri 04-May-07 23:41:59

Cant we just stop the accusations, put yourselves in the parents shoes for a minute, it is a living hell for them right now, I think some sensitivity is needed here, lets just focus on that poor little girl and pray for her safe return, there is a chance the parents could come across this thread at some point, they could even be members.

mommajools Fri 04-May-07 23:48:00

saw the news on sky - so sad
they mentioned a couple carrying a young child in the early hours cauught in someones headlights who looked liked they did not want to be spotted.

TwoIfBySea Fri 04-May-07 23:48:06

Wasn't making accusations, just highlighting that the area wasn't really that secure, certainly not enough to leave young children in.

Anything could have happened.

God help them but the parents will be wishing they had taken that listening service but even that doesn't sound particularly safe. It doesn't do anyone any good to start going on about accusations, as I said before in these circumstances, as parents you think "what would I have done?"

sandcastles Fri 04-May-07 23:53:35

Have just seen the appeal on Sky News (UK).

Very hard to watch.....

totaleclipse Fri 04-May-07 23:54:12

I was'nt aiming that at anybody in particilar.

Mhamai Fri 04-May-07 23:54:59

Oh lord this is so

totaleclipse Sat 05-May-07 00:01:49

Am off to bed, god I hope thers some good news by the morning

TwoIfBySea Sat 05-May-07 00:05:39

It is the not knowing. Pure torture and I don't even want to imagine what it is like.

Is Portugal as family orientated as Spain is? Hopefully that would mean that she will be found and quickly.

I watched Human Trafficking last year, gave me nightmares about how easy it is. I hope that isn't the case. Truly, truly terrible.

chipmonkey Sat 05-May-07 00:14:37

Poor little pet.
Have to admit, dh and I did something similar at BIL's wedding, ds1 and ds2 were asleep in the hotel room 3 floors up and I popped in every half hour so see if they were OK.

DrDaddy Sat 05-May-07 00:15:50

Let's put all the judgments aside here. If someone was determined to abduct this child, then they would have done it whether the parents were next door in their room or not. None of us can say we have 24/7 surveillance over our own children. I feel so absolutely rotten for the parents.....and my blood boils at who could have perpetrated such an act.

hippmummy Sat 05-May-07 08:09:59

Please will people leave the poor parents alone.
Does anyone imagine that for a second they would contemplate something like this could happen?
If they rejected the hotel babysitting service in favour of their own monitoring they obviously felt absolutely confident that the children were safe and just needed frequent checking to make sure they hadn't woken in need of anything.
Do people really think that if they had considered there was even 1 in a billion chance that their child would be abducted they would have left them?
I used to live on the first floor of an apartment block and when DS1 was a baby I would leave him asleep to go down to take rubbish out or hang out the washing. Sometimes I would be gone for 10 minutes. But it never crossd my mind that someone might sneak in and take him.
My main concerns were him waking and crying and I wouldn't hear him because I was downstairs.
This must be exactly how these parents viewed the situation

AttilaTheMeerkat Sat 05-May-07 08:22:04

So are we also not to condemn the single parent who leaves their children in the house alone whilst said parent goes off on holiday?. I think there would be less of "leave the poor parents alone" in that case.

I sincerely hope that this 3 year old is found but its looking less likely as time passes. She may not even be in Portugal any longer.

Blu Sat 05-May-07 08:26:10

NB The Guardian is quoting this thread as an example of people's reactions. So there really does need to be sensitivity - it will be read by friends and family of this poor little girl.

From the photo and map layout in the Guardian, I can completely see how the parents would have felt safe within the complex.

Long ago I took my ex-p's 3 year old child on holiday to the village along the coast from Luz. We were so happy. It's heartbreaking that another family have walked into this nightmare.

Poor, poor family.

hippmummy Sat 05-May-07 08:31:29

Attila please be reasonable - it's really not the same thing.
Leaving your child to fend for themself for a week while you go on holiday is neglect.
Leaving you sleeping child in an assumed safe environment while you have a meal, and check up on them every half hour is not.

DrNortherner Sat 05-May-07 08:34:40

Please let's just have hopeful thoughts. I can not stop thinking about this little girl.

I hope to God she is found safe and well, but as time passes it seems more and more unlikeley.

Horrible thing is, at some point her parents will have to leave portugal for home, and I am praying it is with all 3 of their chldren and not just 2

ludaloo Sat 05-May-07 08:36:32

It is sad and unfortunate....whether the parents did the right thing or not. The poor little thing, I truly hope she is found soon.

ekra Sat 05-May-07 08:40:13

The only hope I can have now is that it was a bungled burglary. Someone broke in, the girl woke up, the intruder panicked and took the girl. They will panic again and dump the girl somewhere unharmed.

Astrophe Sat 05-May-07 08:46:20

Oh, this is just so dreadful. Don't judge the poor parents, this could so easily be one of our DDs They would NEVER have left her if they thought for a moment something would have happened to her.

Let us all pray there is a positve outcome, and give thanks to God for our children today.

ggglimpopo Sat 05-May-07 08:48:40

The last thing that anyone who has lost a child - by whatever means - wants or needs like a hole in the head, is other people judging them, or saying 'I would never have done this or that' as if.......

Poor poor family.

NuttyMuffins Sat 05-May-07 08:49:00

Oh I was so hoping to get up this morning and read that she had been found.

Those of you laying blame at the parents door, quite frankly need to shut the hell up, this is neither the time or the place, have some sensitivity please.

noddyholder Sat 05-May-07 08:50:51

I think MN should delete this as I would hate any of these comments to get beyond here abd be read by anyone else that they might upset

NuttyMuffins Sat 05-May-07 08:52:19

I agree noddy.

My husband was on nightshift last night and I felt really vulnerable for some reason and put my 3 year old in bed with me. It has upset me deeply what this family must be going through.

My children are often playing in the garden whilst I am busy upstairs, on the phone, with guests, doing housework etc. If somebody god forbid was watching us and determined to take one of my children I am sure that there is daily opportunity to do so. Obviously because you never in a million years think this could happen you take a measured risk.

It is unacceptable when this poor child is still missing that we sit in our glass houses and pass judgement.

If you must think "what would I have done" please keep it to yourself.

Madelaines mum could well read this site when she is having to come to terms with what has happened.

fryalot Sat 05-May-07 08:55:36

Personally, I can quite easily see how they could have left the kids. I too would have thought that they would be perfectly safe. The parents were within sight of the door, and they were being checked on regularly. It's only the same, really, as having your children asleep upstairs while you're outside in the garden (possibly safer as you wouldn't in that circumstance go and check on them every ten minutes or so)

It is a devastating thing to happen and it sends shivers down my spine when I think of what the family are going through and what has happened to that poor little girl.

Hope and pray that she is returned safe and well soon.

VeniVidiVickiQV Sat 05-May-07 08:59:14

No news yet

Crazydazy Sat 05-May-07 09:05:34

Oh I see this has been started - sorry everyone!!!!

I heard about it yesterday, so terrible.

LilyLoo Sat 05-May-07 09:09:27

god hoped and prayed we would wake up to some news this morning it must be unberable for the family my thoughts are with you

glassslipper Sat 05-May-07 09:17:30

Havent read the whole thread but saw this on the news and felt compelled to say something on MN.

This article has had me in tears. Whatever the circumstances leading to the disappearance of this little girl (and I'm not sure here is the place to start making comment thb), none of us would wish this heartache on any other parent.

I truly hope the Portugese police are successful in finding this little girl.
And my sympathy goes out to the parents. I have a 3 year old girl and she's been winding me up this morning actually. When she gets back from the supermarket with her Daddy she's going to get the biggest hug in the world.

My thoughts are with this little girl's parents.

LilyLoo Sat 05-May-07 09:19:35

How frustrating. A family friend on bbc just said they feel that the portugese police are not doing enough. Although i wonder if you would always feel that until they find her.

Zorbadog Sat 05-May-07 09:23:41

I came to this forum as it was mentioned in the Guardian today, and I simply cannot believe what I am reading.

I have given up after reading the first dozen posts, as it seems the vast majority are afraid of the questions that need asking. Surely the whole point of forums such as this, is that by allowing people to express their opinions a balanced view is obtained, and not complaining that a view not matching your own is removed by the moderators.

I have every sympathy with the parents of this child, and I like everyone else sincerely hope that she is found safe and well.

However, it is outrageous that these children were left on their own while the parents were a couple of hundred yards away. Whether they had a listener or not, any number of things could have happened to bring harm to the children that they wouldn't have known about from that distance, such as a fire, etc.

If these questions aren't mentioned on this forum and everyone just says "What bad luck", children being left on their own will be seen as an acceptable thing to do, which it quite simply isn't.

MaloryTowers Sat 05-May-07 09:25:51

REAALY unheplful cooment

what are you implying-because they left their kids they somehow deserve to have theur daughter abducted???



go back to redaing the gaurdian

momobike Sat 05-May-07 09:27:42

Agree. Leaving a child is just not acceptable and in order for society to recognise that, we have to discuss it.

Really feel for the parents,

Aloha Sat 05-May-07 09:28:23

As I understand it they could see the door of the apartment from where they were sitting. That doesn't seem very different to be to sitting outside your holiday villa having a barbecue on the patio or walking to the end of the garden. Poor souls. What a nightmare.

noddyholder Sat 05-May-07 09:28:42

Go away This can be a debate at any other time but not while those poor people are suffering As you are a perfect parent who has never taken a risk I would suggest you bugger off as this is noth the forum for you as we are all a bit flawed

fryalot Sat 05-May-07 09:29:55

erm.... am thinking maybe my new catchphrase would be appropriate here?

NuttyMuffins Sat 05-May-07 09:30:32

This isn't the time for discussing wether they were right or wrong to leave them, why don't some of you get that ??

Their daughter is missing, they may never see her again and all you are bothered about it wether the parents were in some way to blame.

How can you be so insensitive

LilyLoo Sat 05-May-07 09:31:10

Aloha from looking at the aprtment today it was round the corner of the apartment and down the road to the restauraunt and the reporter said they could see the side of the apartment from there. She didn't say they could see the door. I have to say though if this was pre meditated then they could have followed them to the beach and snatched her when they were caught off guard it really is that easy.

momobike Sat 05-May-07 09:33:06

This is just too awful.

I cant even begin to imagine how they feel.

Praying she will be found safe. x

foxinsocks Sat 05-May-07 09:34:09

We're not all perfect Zorba. Everyone takes risks.

I don't think the thread should be deleted because, unfortunately, the poor parents and the family are going to come across attitudes like this aren't they .

I just find it distasteful that people actually sit here thinking 'ooh they should never have left them in that room' rather than 'there but for the grace of God go I.'

doyouwantfrieswiththat Sat 05-May-07 09:36:18

& I guess all of us are going to be a little bit more paranoid now , cases like this need as much publicity as soon as possible to have a better chance of finding the child.

someone linked to the 'code adam' system in the USA where it says that police are notified and potentially setting up roadblocks if a child lost in a department store is not located in 10 minutes....closing ports several hours later could be too late.

Zorbadog Sat 05-May-07 09:37:32

Following my previous post, I can see some people are upset.

I appreciate the comments, but ask how would anyone on this board feel if it is not discussed and a similar thing happens again next week.

LilyLoo Sat 05-May-07 09:37:54

it's just been reported on the news that the police only stepped up the search after the British Ambassador arrived yesterday.

Saggarmakersbottomknocker Sat 05-May-07 09:38:20

Thinking of those poor parents

LilyLoo Sat 05-May-07 09:40:02

Zorba i think people do want to discuss this but they just wouldn't want the parent sto see any 'i told you so' comments if they read this and the worst has happened. Maybe people just need to be sensitive to that. I guess what we talk about in real life to each other with regards to this will never get back to them.

Saggarmakersbottomknocker Sat 05-May-07 09:40:03

Zorba - it has been discussed in the past and will be again I'm sure. But IMO here and now is inappropriate.

MaloryTowers Sat 05-May-07 09:40:49

children are abducted fairly frequently

not leasving them in a hotel room aint gonna stop that

i wiuld think that was has happemede here is extrememely rare

Hulababy Sat 05-May-07 09:41:13

Still no news; those poor parents And that little girl

Wonder if there would be quite so much judging happening if this was a MNetter going through the same ordeal.

LilyLoo Sat 05-May-07 09:42:33

It could be Hulababy though.

noddyholder Sat 05-May-07 09:42:39

Agree with malory Someone who does this has made a decision and not just taken her in passing.

misdee Sat 05-May-07 09:44:20

code adam

this is terribly sad, and as others have said, now is not the time for judging the poor parents.

LilyLoo Sat 05-May-07 09:44:43

Agree Malory. After Holly and Jessica parents still let their kids play out. It could happen again it's just that we all hope it's a rare thing and it won't happen to us. But that's still a measured risk.

Kayran Sat 05-May-07 09:45:55

For anyone who feels they can lift a prayer to St Jude for the dsafe return of this little girl. He is a Christian saint and one of the Twelve Apostles of Jesus. He is the patron saint of desperate cases and lost causes.

We all agree that whatever else we think we want the safe and immediate return of this pooe little mite.

DrNortherner Sat 05-May-07 09:46:19

She may well be a mnetter, we don't know. And following all the deabtes we have had about leaving kids in hotels rooms the vast majority of you have done it, and see no harm in it.

I have always said I would never do this. Having worked in the hotel industry I am to aware of the risks. However I can totally see why people do, and why the McCann's felt safe in doing so.

I am sure they will be beating themselves up enough without an on slaugt orm the general public.

LilyLoo Sat 05-May-07 09:46:46

prayer to st jude for her safe return. x

ELMTREE Sat 05-May-07 09:47:21

This is awful. I really feel for the parents. But I cant help thinking why they left them alone in the room. Anything could have happened like an electrical fault, or they could have been sick or fallen out of bed and really hurt themselves.

I know this is not a time for saying "why" and I really hope they find the little girl safe and well.

doyouwantfrieswiththat Sat 05-May-07 09:49:26

I am more angry with the authorities if this was not taken seriously as a potential abduction sooner.

Hulababy Sat 05-May-07 09:49:28

Have just done a quick search on here and yes, there are plenty of MNetters who would leave there children in this type of situation...would we be less supportive of them to if the worst happen.

LilyLoo Sat 05-May-07 09:50:27

How many parents have done this though and there children have come to no harm. It is a very rare thing and i cannot recall anything like this since Ben Needham in 1991. That's a very long time with people doing just this and their child being absolutely fine.

TerribleMuriel Sat 05-May-07 09:51:24
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Re:First Reports

Date Posted:07/30/2011 1:04 PMCopy HTML

TerribleMuriel Sat 05-May-07 09:51:24

Just adding my prayers and hopes for a safe return of the little girl. I hoped for different news when I logged on this morning. They must be going out of their minds.

Agree, not a time to judge them.

glassslipper Sat 05-May-07 09:51:50

Personally I wouldnt leave my kids alne, but I completely agree with the 'there but for he grace of god, go i' comment. We should be grateful all our kids are safe and hope this child is found.

The recriminations/analysis of what should shouldnt have happened will definitely happen but lets find the little girl first.

IMHO

LilyLoo Sat 05-May-07 09:52:22

Sadly maybe the porteguese authorities were very ill equipped to deal with something like this. It is a place where thousands of holiday makers go and this has never happened. Sadly it takes things like this for the authorities to learn how to deal with it if it was to happen again

Zog Sat 05-May-07 09:55:44

I am speechless at this thread.

What about the little girl taken from a tent in her back garden and murdered? Sarah Payne? The little girl taken from her bath? The girl taken from her dormitory on a school trip? Do you blame all those parents too?

All of us have to assess many risks to do with our children every single day. The one thing you can never ever factor in is someone determined to snatch your child precisely because you cannot watch them 24 hours a day.

Shame on all of you who have judged this couple.

doyouwantfrieswiththat Sat 05-May-07 09:58:35

I would like to think if I reported a 3 year old child missing at 10.00 pm that I would get a response sooner than a few hours later..though I know as a parent that it could seem longer than it was.

I hope she's found safe but in reality most of us here are helpless to do anything constructive for this family..but there must be mumsnetters in Portugal & Spain with eyes & ears open for this child.

pinknfluffy29 Sat 05-May-07 09:59:53

this has had me in tears since thursday - this would be my worst nightmare realised!!! i think as a parent if my child was abducted and never found (like ben needham) it would be the worst possible situation and i think i would seriously lose my mind. the uncertainty and the imagining what happened would end me up in a secure psychiatric unit.

i hope this little one is found safe and sound and returned to her distraught parents/

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 10:01:07

I really hoped that Maddie would have been found when I woke this morning. I keep imagining how those parents must be feeling - imagine trying to sleep - imagine that moment when you wake and then you remember - heart breaking.

Whenever I go to Greece there are photos of Ben Needham and a photo fit of what he might look like now.

I cannot work out if the authorities believe she has been abducted or if she has wandered off. Surely if she had wandered off she would have been found by now.

My heart goes out to her and her family

allieBongo Sat 05-May-07 10:02:39

how old where the other children left with her? were they old enough to look after a 3yr old? Havne't has chance to see much on the news. It must be a horrensdous feeling. I do feel v sorry for them

allieBongo Sat 05-May-07 10:03:04

apologies for the crap spelling

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 10:03:19

1 year old twins

DrNortherner Sat 05-May-07 10:03:26

There does seem to be an odd lack of info from the POrtugese authorities, and the police are still not referring to it as an abduction.

allieBongo Sat 05-May-07 10:03:49

oh...

hippmummy Sat 05-May-07 10:03:57

The people criticising the parents are missing the point.

The parents must have believed that they were leaving their children sleeping in a safe environment or else they would not have left them. They didn't leave her thinking 'someone could come in and take the kids, but that's a risk I'll take'.
They came back to check on them in case they had woken - not to see if they had been taken.

They could not have imagined in a million years that something like this would happen.

It is ridiculous to suggest you should never leave your children unattended while they are asleep, btw.

Save your anger for the person who took Madeleine, not her parents. It's not their fault.

NotanOtter Sat 05-May-07 10:04:29

Yes Beety I hoped too - I keep talking to her - its so so too horrible for her x

madoldcatlady Sat 05-May-07 10:05:11

The 3 yr old was the oldest child I think.

Things like this blow my mind. I just can't begin to imagine the agony those parents must be going through.

Please God let her be found safe, a little cold and dehydrated but please God let her be found soon.

ELMTREE Sat 05-May-07 10:06:53

So has she definitely been abducted or could she have climbed out of the window.

hercules1 Sat 05-May-07 10:11:11

So saad to see that this thread has included blame the parents mentality.

My thoughts are with them and I hope to god she's found today. I have a 3 year old dd and they must be in hell right now.

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 10:12:19

If she hads climbed out, surely she would have been found by now and/or been seen.

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 10:12:37

Ben needham was blond too

NotanOtter Sat 05-May-07 10:13:22

evrerytime this thread is at the top i think someone has heard some good news...

VeronicaMars Sat 05-May-07 10:13:40

Cannot believe there is still no news. Are they conducting door to door searches I wonder? If they were checking so often on the children then surely she couldn't have been too far away when they discovered that she was gone. Which just makes it even more frusrating for her parents.
It doesn't matter what situation you are in shopping, school, work or holidays. No one imagines that this could ever happen to them. Cases like this are always described as 'every parents worst nightmare' because there is no other way to put in into words.
I hope to God she is found safe and well.

Aloha Sat 05-May-07 10:14:06

Lots of British children are blonde though. Both mine are (dsd was a fair redhead at three) but they won't be when they are older.
I found reports about her looks and blonde hair really creepy tbh. I know what it is meant to imply, and I don't like it.

kinki Sat 05-May-07 10:15:08

It's all so very, very sad. All this talk about whether she should have been left alone or not... it seems to me inappropriate just now. If the little girl has been abducted, there is only one (or maybe more) villan. Her parents did not act maliciously, they did not wilfully put there children in danger. There's nothing to assume they are not the same loving and protective parents we probably all are. And lets face it, if a GP and a cardiologist can make an incorrect judgement regarding risk assesment, safety and protection, then you can bet the rest of us could as well. You don't get to those positions without a certain degree of intelligence and commen sense. I also know that if (god forbid) I was going through the same thing, and I went to my gp, I would be treated with compassion and empathy, not critism and judgement. Maybe we should all do the same for this poor woman.

As to the debate. When someone is struck down with say lung cancer, you don't immediately start a debate in a public arena how inappropriate it is that they smoke. You're more likely to offer support. No way is the same, but there's a vague parallel there. All I'm saying is maybe there's a more appropriate time to discuss this. Just my opinion.

God willing, she'll be found alive.

handlemecarefully Sat 05-May-07 10:15:45

Caught it on the news again. She's still not been found. It's unimaginable what those parents are going through. Unbearable to contemplate.

Just awful...

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 10:17:21

I know Aloha -

handlemecarefully Sat 05-May-07 10:17:38

And on the 'wisdom' of leaving a child in a locked hotel room like this - it speaks for itself that the last similar reported incident was 1991. This sort of thing simply does not happen and the parents did not make a rash or unwise decision in any way

cupcakes Sat 05-May-07 10:20:41

I feel the same as Aloha. The fact that she is pretty should be irrelevant but the fact that it is constantly mentioned is very disturbing.
She was in my thoughts all last night and the first thing I did this morning was to check the news hoping she had been found.
My dd1 (4) wasn't very well last night and I took the opportunity to get into bed with her and hold her tight and smell her hair.
I can't imagine how Maddie's parents are feeling.

ruty Sat 05-May-07 10:21:03

agree Aloha. Very odd and rather distasteful.

gothicmama Sat 05-May-07 10:22:26

handle me carefully it does happen just not often, I don't understand how people who don't leave children on their own at home do so on holiday although I guess because itwas afamily based resort adn they weere so close it was decision made based on risk assessment that should be ok.
I hope she is found soon and her parents reconcile their decision with themselves

AitchTwoOh Sat 05-May-07 10:23:33

i've found that rather creepy too, aloha. blonde, yes, but where's the relevance of the prettiness or otherwise?

gothicmama Sat 05-May-07 10:24:52

it is creepy and I have asked myself if she was dark or less pretty or black or mixed race or if her parents weren't professionals would the media be so interested in pursuing the story

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 10:28:02

look at the society we live in, obsessed by what we look like. A pretty blond child is newsworthy -

AitchTwoOh Sat 05-May-07 10:29:13

see, to me it strongly implies that they wish to pursue the more sensationalist angle that she's been abducted by a paedophile but in the absence of any actual evidence they'll just push the 'she's so pretty, er, why wouldn't someone abduct her' line. or am i just looking too deeply into it?

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 10:30:51

aitch I think you are right -

gothicmama Sat 05-May-07 10:31:34

agree aitch it makes the story much more sensatinalist

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 10:32:01

A bbc reporter said earlier that the police abroad don’t report on cases like this in the same way the police here do so as not to jeopardise any future case against a potential suspect. In this country it almost goes too far the other way with suspects being named before they’ve even been charged with a crime and then being hung drawn and quartered by the media and the public at large thus ensuring they can never really have a fair trial.

But they were talking to the editor of one of the local papers this morning, and he said that both the hotel management and the police had stated categorically that there had been no forced entry into the apartment, and that reports of the shutters having been forced were untrue. He also said that police don’t appear to believe this was an abduction and that abduction is unheard of in Portugal, so if it was an abduction, that it was unlikely the guilty party would be Portuguese.

hatrick Sat 05-May-07 10:34:17

The constant referral to her looks implies that the "abducter" knew of her\had been watching her.

wickedwaterwitch Sat 05-May-07 10:36:07

I couldn't stop thinking about this girl last night. I am at my sister's and I collected my 3yo dd from her cousin's room and cuddled her in with me last night. How sad that there's still no news.

LIZS Sat 05-May-07 10:36:08

I'm not sure I'd buy the line that it would never happen in Portugal or be a local - there are crime and dubious characters all over ! Let's face it this is hardly going to be good for local tourism.

AitchTwoOh Sat 05-May-07 10:38:39

yes, that rather reminds me (admittedly glibly) of the mayor in jaws... no sharks here...

SueW Sat 05-May-07 10:40:22

I awoke this morning hoping there would be good news and turned on the computer & TV straight away for news. Very, very sad that there is nothing good to hear.

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 10:42:20

The more I think about it, the more I question the whole 'broke into the room and abducted her' theory.

In a country where abductions are rare, an abductor would have had to know she was in the room, knowing there was no baby listening service, and knowing the parents would check every half hour. So the abductor would have to loiter until after a parental check before striking.
And there are no signs of forceful entry.

Too implausible.

However, did the room/appartment not back onto a road, and the resort was not enclosed.
What if she woke up, went looking for her parents (somebody already said the locks on the doors were easy to open from the inside), but instead wandered onto the road where a passing vehicle (with an opportunistic b*stard inside) took her.

Acually, typing that, it seems implausible too.

Oh heck, Madeleine where are you?

Those poor parents, they must be out of their minds and beyond...

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 10:43:48

parents say the shutters were broken into.

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 10:44:21

No, was that later not denied - the police confirmed there was nothing wrong with the shutters.

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 10:44:56

yes it seems there is a disagreement about the shutters?

LynetteScavo Sat 05-May-07 10:45:01

The whole Ben Needham thing sounds implausable too, but it happend. I've never been able to get that out of my mind. I've no idea how his mother was able to move on with her life.

hatrick Sat 05-May-07 10:46:50

From tatements made by the resort it seems the shutters were open but had not been locked, therefore no force was needed. Hence no forced entry.

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 10:47:02

'Trish said: "The door was lying open, the window in the bedroom and the shutters had been jemmied open.'

But police and Mark Warner deny this

hatrick Sat 05-May-07 10:48:01

Statements

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 10:49:20

Ah, that makes sense hatrick.

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 10:49:42

I guess it's possible that the mum could have gone to check, discovered she was missing, and run to the window and opened the window and shutters to see if she could see anything, but in the panic, not remembering doing so, so when the family returned they found the window open but the mum didn't recall opening it because she was so stressed/panicked.

ruty Sat 05-May-07 10:50:06

that is exactly what i thought Aitch. Trying to suggest a paedophile angle with no evidence. Really nasty.

LynetteScavo Sat 05-May-07 10:50:35

I didn't realise it was a Mark Warner resort. I've always felt so safe in these resorts.

DrNortherner Sat 05-May-07 10:51:02

The wandering off theory is more plausible don't you think? Maddy's aunt was on the news this morning saying she was happy and well adjusted and would not leave her family. But if a 3 year old awoke in a strange place, she may well try to find her parents.

The not knowing what exactly happenned must be horiffic for her parents to cope with.

I truly hope she is found alive soon.

ruty Sat 05-May-07 10:51:39

of course it is what we all fear but the kind of underhand suggestions 'she was blonde, pretty,' etc are unnecessary.

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 10:51:59

dh is convinced she wandered off and maybe into the sea !!! Oh God I do hope not.

marthamoo Sat 05-May-07 10:52:02

She was the first thing I thought about when I woke up this morning. Poor little girl and her parents - they must just be out of their minds. Can't help thinking it extremely unlikely this will have a good outcome but I do hope I'm wrong.

CaptainUnderpants Sat 05-May-07 10:52:18

MW resorts , it appears, are usually closed separate compounds but this one was built around and in a fishing village so anyone was free to wander as it was part of the town.

LynetteScavo Sat 05-May-07 10:52:28

I'm praying she wondered out and has been taken in by some stupid local who hasn't returned her yet.

paulaplumpbottom Sat 05-May-07 10:52:51

The resort says that they were not

kinki Sat 05-May-07 10:53:18

Maybe one of the twins woke and cried, so Maddy thought she'd go find her parents. Who knows, its all speculation.

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 10:54:28

I'm inclined to think she wandered off too tbh. too many factors to be an opportunistic abduction. If she was abducted, then it must have been someone who knew her/the family. The father is a cardiologist, an agrieved parent perhaps? someone whose child died under his care?

paulaplumpbottom Sat 05-May-07 10:54:54

I wonder if they were awke when she was found to be missing

Marina Sat 05-May-07 10:55:40

I can't stop thinking about it too.
I have a dd not far off Madeleine's age. I just pray that by some miracle she is found safe and well.

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 10:55:52

f she wandered off I wouldn't imagine she will be found alive.

LIZS Sat 05-May-07 10:56:30

Don't think it is a typical MW resort - not enclosed or exclusive, just apartments and MW run clubs run within an established complex on the edge of a resort. The MW umbrella may have added a false sense of security and led to them letting their usual cguard down.

paulaplumpbottom Sat 05-May-07 10:57:13

If she wandered off wouldn't she have been found by now, unless she decided to go for a swim in the sea, but most three year olds are a little nervous by the sea

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 10:57:49

It's truly every parent's worst nightmare isn't it ?? I can't stop thinking of how desperate they must feel and how incapacitated. Everything must feel like it's out of their hands - how awful.

fryalot Sat 05-May-07 10:58:12

that worries me, tbh.... if they had been having fun at the sea the day before, she may have decided to try and have some fun on her own....

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 11:00:22

if she wandered off and is found, alive or not, will the parents be held accountable in any way?

There have been discussions on here about leaving children, and the general consensus seems to always have been that while it's not illegal, if something happened to that child, the parents would be held to account.

paulaplumpbottom Sat 05-May-07 11:01:32

I imagine that they will spend the rest of their lives holding themselves accountable. I can't think of a worse punishment than that

jampot Sat 05-May-07 11:02:08

is there no CCTV in these places?

doyouwantfrieswiththat Sat 05-May-07 11:02:29

I agree ppb

doyouwantfrieswiththat Sat 05-May-07 11:03:34

I was wondering that jampots & assuming the police etc would be examining it....I hope

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 11:04:37

Surely they wouldn't be held accountable ?

I see what you mean though - if they'd left them home alone at home and something had happened social services would have been in there like a shot !

Let's hope she turns up safe and well anyway !

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 11:08:15

UtterMadness - I wondered about the 'aggrieved parent of a patient' angle too, but was afraid to voice it in case you all thought I had been watching too much CSI.

Regarding the parents being held accountable - I think they are beyond caring about things like that. They will blame themselves forever, their lives will never be the same.

tortoiseSHELL Sat 05-May-07 11:09:45

I so wanted there to be good news today. And I have to confess my 'pretty blonde' 3 year old dd has had so many hugs last night and this morning. It's always dreadful to hear news like this, but it brings it closer to home when the news descriptions could be of your own dd. I lit 5 candles at church last night for Madeleine and her family.

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 11:10:59

there is no doubt they will have to live with this for the rest of their lives, but if you went slightly over the drink drive limit for instance and got in a car and drove your children somewhere and had an accident and the children were killed, you would have to live with that for the rest of your life, but you would most likely still be prosecuted for causing death by dangerous driving and may even go to prison for it.

if you left a three year old home alone and something happened to that child, social services would certainly become involved and would at very least question your suitability as a parent.

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 11:11:03

just for once could we not have some good news

ruty Sat 05-May-07 11:12:28

it is really not the time for recriminations.

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 11:13:39

No ones's making recriminations though - just discussing whether in the worst case scenario there would be any.

mommajools Sat 05-May-07 11:14:23

theres a news conference on sky in 10 mins

daisy1999 Sat 05-May-07 11:15:10

I hope she is found soon and I feel for the parents but I also find it unbelievable that anyone would find it acceptable to leave children alone. Never mind abduction, I couldn't risk letting a small child wake up and find that nobody was there for them.

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 11:17:06

there aren't any recriminations, but it's a fair question. no one is saying they should be charged with anything, just questioning whether they would be.

VeronicaMars Sat 05-May-07 11:17:43

If she had wandered off, surely someone would have seen her, if she did that and then realised she counldn't find her parents or that she was lost, would she not have started crying or panicking? Someone would have heard her. It's all so strange and sad.

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 11:20:58

ruty - i think people are just speculating/ wondering what the deal would be in a situation like this, not casting stones at the parents.

FWIW I don't think leaving a child alone is illegal in these circumstances, (it is no different to me having a bonfire down the bottom of my (long) garden, whilst the children are asleep in the house. The house faces a busy little road - lots of pedestrian 'traffic' - and if anyone wanted to break in, it is not impossible sadly) and I don't think the parents will be blamed/found negligent.
But in the grand scheme of things it is irrelevant, all that matters is their little girl comes back.

Rhubarb Sat 05-May-07 11:21:12

I can't believe the judgementalists have crawled once more out of the woodwork.

These parents are going through hell, do you really think your comments about holding them accountable are actually helpful at all? Or do they just make you feel better?

I shall repeat my earlier post;

"Has anyone ever left their children in the garden playing whilst they were in the house? Good grief someone could have snatched your child from over the fence!

Or perhaps your child has slept in a tent in the garden - how irresponsible! Or in a crowded playground whilst you chatted with other mothers?

Oh how easy it is to point the finger whilst smugly smothering your own children.

I have left my children asleep in a hotel room with a baby alarm whilst me and dh have had a drink in the bar. It's a risk you take but the chances of them being abducted are slimmer than them being run over whilst holding your hand on a pedestrian crossing.

A paedo who had abducted and killed a girl was once asked if there was anything the mother could have done to have prevented him kidnapping the girl (from a busy fairground whilst the mother was distracted), he replied, maybe if the girl had been strapped to her mother, but then again he mused, he would have probably just killed the mother too.

We don't know what went on here. But I suggest all the smugger than thous take a hike and hope to goodness that nothing happens to their precious charges one day that will make them rethink their judgementalist attitudes.

And I'm sure we all sincerely hope that this girl is found safe and sound. The parents must be going through hell, without the added insult of being judged on their parenting skills."

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 11:22:19

Daisy - do you sit with your children all night, or do you go into the garden of a nice evening, sit on the patio, clear out the garage, pop down the basement to get a bottle of wine??

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 11:23:31

Cross posted rhubarb, but I think most of us were NOT judging, merely question the legality of cases like this.

Carmenere Sat 05-May-07 11:24:15

Totally agree with Rhubarb, compassion is the order of the day here.

Blandmum Sat 05-May-07 11:24:18

Poor, poor parents, poor sweet child. There but for the Grace of God go I.

daisy1999 Sat 05-May-07 11:24:25

hippi, I stay in the house and they know where to find me. I can't see your point.

gothicmama Sat 05-May-07 11:25:55

I appreciate holding parents accountable is not helpful tofinding the little girl and that things happen to make you reconsider the assessments you make and i think the high profile of this situation makes peopel consider the decisions they make as parents, whichis sometime voiced in comments relating to the current situation

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 11:26:42

me too MB

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 11:28:18

gothicmama, you said what I wanted to say, only so much more eloquently.

Daisy - sorry, your post sounded like you would be there the second your child woke up.
My bad.

Lazycow Sat 05-May-07 11:29:03

Those who are saying 'Well it is unacceptable to ever leave a child' or 'Well in this situation I would never leave my children unattended' are really just searching for a way to to comfort themselves that it will never happen to them because they would never do such a 'reckless thing'

The fact is these parent have a terrible, and agonising thing happen (hopefully not tragic) and that they were incredibly unlucky. The reality is that the risk of abduction in this sort of situation is tiny small and probably did not even occur to the parents.

I have left ds in a hotel room with a listening service while dh and I go downstairs for a drink. However even if I had not - my first thought would still be 'there but for the grace of God' not 'Well that's very sad but it would never happen to me because I would never leave my kids in that situation'

Even those of you who would never leave their children unattended in this situation - do you really believe that you 'NEVER' take any risks of ANY sort with your children? If you do you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

That poor poor family, I just hope and pray the little girl is returned safely.

hatrick Sat 05-May-07 11:33:36

I feel like i am taking a risk when I leave my children in the car to pay at a petrol station, I do it but I know it is a risk.

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 11:34:34

you can't compare going into the garden while your children are asleep in the house to going to a restaurant while your children are asleep in a hotel room. I might go into my garden but my childrens' bedrooms are above the garden so they could call me if they needed me. but I wouldn't go to a neighbour's house or to the pub. If those children had needed their parents they would have called and the parents wouldn't have been there.

if the parents had been drink drivers would people still be saying "spare a thought for the parents?" I don't think so.

no one is saying they should be held accountable, my question was purely as to whether, if this child is proven to have not been abducted, whether they will then be put through the hell of legal recriminations for the decision they made to leave young children unsupervised in an unsecured hotel room where they had access to the outside without parental supervision.

and if they had decided to use the baby listening, I would imagine they would almost certainly be seaking compensation from mw at some stage.

tortoiseSHELL Sat 05-May-07 11:35:04

hatrick - that is the classic 'what is more dangerous, leaving them or taking them?' TO me it is more dangerous to take 3 children across a petrol forecourt with cars manouvering everywhere in all sorts of directions than to leave them in the car where I can see them.

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 11:36:59

abduction wouldn't cross my mind either, but I would be worried that such a young child could wander out, as generally the doors of hotelrooms are extremely easy to open.

hatrick Sat 05-May-07 11:37:13

i know tortoiseshell, I still hate doing it though but to be fair I think I am one to be a bit ott protective when it comes to leaving them.

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 11:40:26

UtterMadness, it depends on how big the garden is. And my childrens' rooms are at the front of the house, not the back. And yes, we have popped into the neighbours garden to sit on their patio drinking wine. (took baby monitor tho)
We all perceive risk differently. To me that was an acceptable risk - baby did not wake, we had a nice glass of wine with neighbours, everyone was happy)

In this case, the room was reported to be close to the restaurant. We are not talking several streets away, but a number of yards. How is that different to being at the bottom of a big garden?

Or is is not 'measured distance' as such but 'psychological distance' as in room and restaurant not being within same confined boundary like my house and garden are...

hatrick Sat 05-May-07 11:41:24

She has def been abducted

hatrick Sat 05-May-07 11:41:47

news update on now

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 11:41:51

hatrick, how do they know?

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 11:42:59

Police confirm it is an abduction ! too bloody late - she'll be out of the country by now - slow bloody local police

hatrick Sat 05-May-07 11:43:38

Doesn't seem to say.......poor little girl, I hope she is not too scared.

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 11:43:56

How can she be taken out of the country without a passport? Or am I being too naive?

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 11:44:33

Illegally - in boot of car - plenty of ways !

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 11:44:52

If it's planned - on a fake passport too

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 11:45:50

Oh crumbs, poor little thing

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 11:46:52

it's different because it's a public place. if my children wake up at home they will know where in the house to look for me, and if they don't find me in the house, they would most likely look out of the window and see me in the garden. but if I went to the pub the children would wake up, not find me in the hotel room, and once they leave the hotel room they wouldn't actually know where to go and look because it's such a big complex. and there are so many distractions for such young children in a public place.

DrNortherner Sat 05-May-07 11:47:35

The black splodge in her eye can only go in her favour. It is such a distinguishing feature.

How can a child just disapear? Somebody knows somthing.

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 11:48:26

Fair point UM, I see what you mean.

I guess yes, my dc would know I was more than likely in the garden, but would Maddy have know where to look? Probably not?

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 11:48:50

they seem to think that she's still alive though. maybe they have a suspect already, someone known to the family perhaps. it would be very easy to take a child out of the country, especially in an EU country where passports aren't even always checked. and once you were in a country with less stringent laws you could take her anywhere.

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 11:50:08

Yes, the black splodge - that makes me think the abductor was not someone who was close to the family, knowing about the black splodge may have put him off as she would be easily identifyable.

Please let her be found, please please...

hatrick Sat 05-May-07 11:50:11

They are also in a fishing village, boats everywhere.

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 11:51:23

Police bleiev she's still in Portugal

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 11:51:42

They have a suspect too

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 11:51:44

do the policce have any evidence do you think?

police have a suspect

RanToTheHills Sat 05-May-07 11:52:18

Been on several MW holidays and all parents leave kids in room to go and have dinner. Most resorts have a babylistening service carried out by nannies walking round the corridors, most resorts are enclosed so no-one would conceive of anything happening such as this. Can completely understand why they took the "risk" though it doesn't sound like a typcial MW resort.

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 11:52:19

Sounding more hopeful by the minute

paulaplumpbottom Sat 05-May-07 11:52:35

My DH has the tv at the moment what all did they say

hatrick Sat 05-May-07 11:52:41

Suspect is not in custody though

ekra Sat 05-May-07 11:52:51

UtterMadness - can you stop this now.

This little girl hasn't wandered off, she hasn't been in a fire, she hasn't woken up needing her parents. The parents do not need to be held accountable for those what ifs.

If someone has targetted this little girl, broken into the apartment and taken her, that or those are the only evil people who have done soemthing wrong.

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 11:53:08

How desperate (and crazed) must you be to abduct someone elses child, and then spend a lifetime in hiding hoping no-one finds out...

I have a feeling this is not going to have an ending - happy or otherwise. So desperately sad.

Just a thought, if the abductor was someone who wanted his/her own child, then why not take one of the babies, one who may have less memories of his/her own parents?
Why Madeleine instead of one of the twins (who would be easier to hide/carry due to being smaller?)

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 11:53:10

she has been abducted, she is alive, she is in portugal, they have a suspect but the suspect is not in custody

gothicmama Sat 05-May-07 11:54:08

lets hope they find her soon and the media coverage doesn't force the abductor into doing something stupid

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 11:54:43

They beleiev she is wiyhin 5 miles of thre resort

allieBongo Sat 05-May-07 11:54:45

please keep updating, i am at work and there is nothing new on the net. thanks

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 11:54:54

Ah beetroot, fab news! Will continue to be hopeful, instead of the voice of doom and gloom.
Have no access to a tv at the mo, so rely on you lot for updates!

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 11:54:57

suspect in 3 to 5 miles area from where she was taken and is with Madeleine

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 11:56:38

Oh my word, am on the edge of my seat, not daring to hope!!

Have they seen Madeleine, she is def with suspect??

MrsCarrot Sat 05-May-07 11:56:41

It's true, people so desperately want to think it can't happen to them that they immediately respond with why it wouldn't happen to them as they wouldn't do THAT, whatever that it.

We were on honeymoon last week at a hotel in Sufolk and on our last night dh persuaded me it was fine, for the first time EVER, to leave our three month old in his cot with ds1 (9) and dd(5) watching a video and went downstairs for dinner. Reception said they'd fetch us if they argued/baby cried etc. Actually the night porter came because ds1 fell asleep and dd was looking out of the door for us. I feel really bad. She was upset. How would baby listening have heard her walk out of the door?

Everyone else presumably enjoyed their dinner and things were fine. Things mostly are fine and every so often something terrible happens and it is totally outrageous for people to say THEY wouldn't have done it as EVERYONE has done something that in hindsight they think could have been dangerous. No-can predict that, so get off your high horses.
You put your kids in more danger every time they get in the car.

Marina Sat 05-May-07 11:56:46

Nothing about this on the BBC (am marooned at work and not concentrating very hard ) that does sound hopeful...

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 11:57:02

Not definite - they "believe" !!

allieBongo Sat 05-May-07 11:57:46

marina, me and my friend are sitting her too thinking the same.. nothing on bbc

ruty Sat 05-May-07 11:58:29

oh i hope and pray she's ok.

tortoiseSHELL Sat 05-May-07 11:58:42

Oh please let there be good news. I really have got tears in my eyes, I so want her to be found safe.

paulaplumpbottom Sat 05-May-07 11:59:00

well that sounds hopeful

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 11:59:19

It's sounding so much more positive now - they are closing in I think

Enid Sat 05-May-07 11:59:26

where are you getting info from?

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 11:59:37

I am clicking 'refresh' on this thread every 30 seconds in the hope there is some news. Please please let this end today and give the girl back to her parents.

PeterAndreFanCLub Sat 05-May-07 11:59:48

oi enid enid have foudn a afab job for yo

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 11:59:48

Sky news - news conf reporting live - finished now though

ScoobyDooooo Sat 05-May-07 11:59:49

Oh please let her be ok, i really hope this is going to end with good news for her safe return to her parents, how did you get that info beetroot?

MrsCarrot Sat 05-May-07 11:59:59

OMG, is this true, please let her be fine

paulaplumpbottom Sat 05-May-07 12:00:01

Lets hope the suspect doesn't panic and do something stupid

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 12:00:30

Am I invisible ???

Enid Sat 05-May-07 12:00:32

new thread peter

Marina Sat 05-May-07 12:01:58

Keep the updates coming then Sky-watchers, thanks

allieBongo Sat 05-May-07 12:02:06

yes peter, sling it. so this is on sky news then

allieBongo Sat 05-May-07 12:02:21

thanks scatter brain

LucyJu Sat 05-May-07 12:02:31

Shame on all of you who are implying that the parents have somehow brought this on themselves. "Well, of course I would never leave my children alone in a hotel room..."

Let us hope and pray the little girl is somehow found safe and well. "There, but for the grace of God...."

ScoobyDooooo Sat 05-May-07 12:02:34

No sorry i crossed posts with you.

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 12:02:51

scatterbrian - ii can see you.

news is on bbc 24

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 12:03:05

thanks scatterbrain, please keep updating us if you can.

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 12:03:42

LucyJu we have done that one to death, and most of us are NOT implying that!

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 12:03:52

thedogsbollox Sat 05-May-07 12:03:56
Hillls Sat 05-May-07 12:04:01

Did they just say on the news that they had a suspect??

My dd screeched at the cruitial point??

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Re:First Reports

Date Posted:07/30/2011 1:08 PMCopy HTML

My dd screeched at the cruitial point??
scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 12:04:39

Thay don;t have him or her - but they have a suspect ! And they think they know ehere they are

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 12:05:26

was thinking, if the person wanted to give her up now, how difficult it would be with out being seen - iykwim -

Hillls Sat 05-May-07 12:05:51

evil fuckers!

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 12:05:54

Police have "suspect in mind" - not saying m/f brit/portug - they believe the suspect is within 3 to 5 km of resort. Have sketch of suspect but will not relaesed to press

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 12:05:59

SB, well within a 5 mile radious they think they may know whwre she/suspect is

Hillls Sat 05-May-07 12:06:25

Makes me so so cross angry and sad, how can anyone do this to a child.

NuttyMuffins Sat 05-May-07 12:06:39

God, I have goosebumps all over.

Can't get Sky news so please keep updating.

paulaplumpbottom Sat 05-May-07 12:06:40

I wonder if there was a way they could make it easy. Some sort of drop zone with no police.

debbsyandsonn Sat 05-May-07 12:06:59

Sounds really hopeful,that they have a male suspect and believe she is still in the country,i think they will get her back today.

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 12:07:25

Yes awful - but so mnay reaosns I guess - desp for own child maybe ? Not right of course - but can imagine desperation etc

Hillls Sat 05-May-07 12:08:35

If they have a suspect and know his whereabouts why arn't they just diving in and getting her? Its crazy, form a circle around him and get the bastard.

MrsCarrot Sat 05-May-07 12:09:08

Sky keeps mentioning kidnapping as a possibility, and that police are hopeful that she's alive. Please God, let it be that

mommajools Sat 05-May-07 12:09:12

sounds like it may be a local, maybe a member of staff who has not turned up for work and maybe they have matched fingerprints from the shutters to something a staff member would use like a till, safe

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 12:09:42

Because he/she may have gun/knife etc and panic obviously - they know what to do - let's just let them get on with it - they know how to deal with this stuff and get her out safely. Storming is nt the best way

RedLorryYellowLorry Sat 05-May-07 12:09:49

BBC still saying not known if male or female. Are sky saying male?

littlemissbossy Sat 05-May-07 12:09:51

They'll be watching the suspect, following their every move
BTW it might be a woman or a couple

HavingaToughtime Sat 05-May-07 12:10:36

jesus i have goosebumps

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 12:10:42

not icdentyfying at all -

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 12:10:50

No - people are guessing male - poloice will not say if male/female/brit or portuguese

DrNortherner Sat 05-May-07 12:11:26

If they are mentioning kidnapping maybe they have received a ransome note or something?

There is definetley more info and they are not releasing it to the media. Something has made thme realise she is still alive and in the vicinity. Maybe they have spoken with her?

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 12:12:07

They had 30 odd reports from locals - people must have seen her, and described who she's with

littlemissbossy Sat 05-May-07 12:12:30

Good point Northerner

blueshoes Sat 05-May-07 12:18:41

To those who blame the parents' actions, it is a protective mechanism to comfort ourselves that such a devastating thing could not happen to our children because we would
NEVER take those risks. Our way of distancing ourselves away from the horror of the situation and convincing ourselves it could not happen to us. Just like some people seek to lay the blame of being raped on the victims' skimpy clothing/drunk behaviour. Let us not forget that if we or our children are targetted in any way, there is very little we can do. Nobody is 100% vigilant.

The parents have my every sympathy. I cannot begin to comprehend the unspeakable strain they must be going through.

thingsmakeyougohhmm Sat 05-May-07 12:22:33

Sorry, someone said this had been talked about too much - but in amongst all the concerns for her, exactly why did her parents think it was ok to leave not one but three small children alone whilst they went off for tapas. I think MW offer a nanny service as well. No they didn't bring it on themselves, but it was gross irresponsibility to leave their young children this way. Probably used to having a nanny do it all for them.

RanToTheHills Sat 05-May-07 12:26:13

MW have a set-up which is conducive to leaving yr children asleep, safe in the knowledge that nannies will be listening in )they don't operate a nannies in room policy unless you specifcally book one as a babysitter.

RanToTheHills Sat 05-May-07 12:27:21

so it doesn't seem like a risk! TBH, as people have no doubt, said more risky every time you drive yr kids somewhere than to leave them like this!

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 12:28:06

But they chose not to use this service - and for doting, careful parents, that is odd.

I am NOT blaming them, far from it, but I do question WHY they chose not to use the listening service...

RanToTheHills Sat 05-May-07 12:30:59

i thought they'd chosen not to use the child supervision thing they have in this particular resort.generally meant for older children, I'd have thought,as based away from bedrooms in communal area during evening so wouldn't leave a 3 yr old there, would you?

RedLorryYellowLorry Sat 05-May-07 12:31:00

I heard there wasn't a listening service but a drop in facility where you brought children along in PJ's. If you have good sleepers used to a routine perhaps this didn't suit them. Obvioulsy reports are changing so perhaps I have this wrong now.

NoodleStroodle Sat 05-May-07 12:31:31

Judge! Judge! Judge!

Never taken your child in a car?
Never walked with your child along a busy road?
Never turned your back on them in a supermarket?
Never been distracted in a busy place?
Never lost a toddler?
Toddler never run off from you?

This incident is a freak and exceptional.

Please be reasonable.

cupcakes Sat 05-May-07 12:31:48

why are the police telling the media this? surely if they have a suspect they don't want to alert him/ her to this?

Ladymuck Sat 05-May-07 12:31:49

THere isn't a MW room listening service at this particular location - it is too far spread out. Parents would either have to bring children with them to the restaurant, or leave them in a creche.

RanToTheHills Sat 05-May-07 12:32:23

that's what I thought too. Definitely wouldn't suit mine so would/have gone for babylistening (but this was at different MW resorts in Greece)

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 12:34:36

NoodleStroodle - who is judging? Read the thread, I am certainly not.

But it is natural to question actions/decisions.

There is a big difference between judging/questioning!

Judy1234 Sat 05-May-07 12:38:08

In my view the parents did nothing wrong and we've done that tons of times. A child was taken from her house out of her bath in the North East last year with parents in the house. These things can happen anywhere. I hope they find her. It's her 4th birthday today.

Is there a market for sale of children around that region? There was that little boy stolen Kos in the Greek islands I think years ago, never seen again.

pinknfluffy29 Sat 05-May-07 12:38:18

JUST LOOKED ON BBC NEWS WEBSITE AND POLICE SAY SHE SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN ABDUCTED AND THEY HAVE A SUSPECT AND BELIEVE SHE IS IN THE AREA AND ALIVE!!!!!

sorry if this is repeating another post!!!

VeronicaMars Sat 05-May-07 12:38:40

'Probably used to having a nanny do it all for them' that's a bit much isn't it? The finger of blame, people can never wait to wave it around, get off your high horses and stop judging. As someone else has already pointed out, abductions have happened from peoples gardens, peoples houses and even bathrooms while parents were in the house.

glassslipper Sat 05-May-07 12:39:15

The news said the police have said the parents should not be blamed in any way.

RanToTheHills Sat 05-May-07 12:39:37

but what noodle says is true! We all take risks several times a day with our kids and ones which are far more dangerous on the whole than leaving children in a child-friendly resort when mere yards away. That is the culture of an MW resort (maybe this will now change) - they feel v v safe, 99% of people are families so everyone looks out for one another and most do leave kids unattended in their rooms in the evening.
It doesn't feel much of a risk at the time.

glassslipper Sat 05-May-07 12:40:00

also, apparently this kind of crime is practically unheard of in Portugal.

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 12:40:03

As there is no reply from Noodle, I assume she flew in, made some accusations and flew out. Thanks Noodle!

Scatterbrain, any more updates? I so desperately want this to have a good ending, I darent' leave my pc.

donnie Sat 05-May-07 12:41:23

we have been on 3 MW holidays and chose NOT to go to Portugal as they DO NOT offer the child patrol/monitoring service.This is because the Algarve resort is too big and spread out.

The only people who are at fault here are the persons or person who targeted and abducted that child. Ever single parent on this thread will have left their child to a greater or lesser extent: asleep in the house while they are in the garden, in the car while they fill up at the petrol station or in the hotel room while they go for a drink, which DH and I have done plenty of times. That is because, as hippmummy says, you believe them to be safe and secure.

I defy any parent on this thread to deny having left their child to some point at least once. Think about it and stop somehow implying that the child deserved it or that the parents are at fault.

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 12:41:38

I know, I agree with Noodle, but I was not aware we were judging the parents. I for one have admitted to leaving the dc in certain circumstances, as many others do!

The parents are NOT to blame, this could have happened to any one of us.

donnie Sat 05-May-07 12:42:15

RantotheHills - exactly, couldn't agree more.

tortoiseSHELL Sat 05-May-07 12:42:35

It's feeling more hopeful I think. It's her birthday next week I think xenia - I really hope they are able to have a big celebration.

thedogsbollox Sat 05-May-07 12:42:39

Well isn't hindsight a wonderful thing

The parents took a calculated risk - they are not stupid people and in their line of work will be well used to evaluating risk and determining what is acceptable risk or not.

The fact of the matter is that the risk of abduction in such a situation is infintesimally small. So small it is probably almost not measureable. Way less than the risk you take when you put your baby in a car, way less than when you decide to cross teh road with your child in a buggy, way less than even putting your child safely in their cot to sleep.

This couple will have discussed and evaluated the risk and put in place additional safeguards such as returnign to the room regularly to check the children. They were very very unlucky. In this case they were the random statistic - the outlier - the one that is the exception to the rule. With heartbreaking consequences

The fact that you might have evaluated the risk differently to them, is neither here nor there. We all have different risk profiles - of what is acceptable risk or not. And of course one might consider in hindsight that the couple misread the risks involved (although I personally think not).

What is lamentable, is the way that many people are using their own interpretation of risk to condemn what the family decided to do. This is judging at its worst imv. Totally inappropriate, not least in its timing!

NoodleStroodle Sat 05-May-07 12:43:18

Hippo -

I am still here but I am fed up with all the MN who have never made a parenting mistake casting judgement...

But of course you are free to judge me about flying in and not reading the thread...

Obviously I was imagining posting on this thread Friday lunchtime

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 12:48:55

Allright, Noodle, I just didn't see you around this morning, so to me it felt like you came in, said something about judging and rushed out again.

I did't mean to have a go and apologize. At the end of the day we are all feeling a bit emotional about this, and perhaps I have been on this thread for too long (at least for 3 hours this morning) and should get off.

The dogsbollox - I was not aware that those of us who were illustrating that we have left our dc in the car/garden/house were judging the parents. We all take risks which can lead to disastrous consequences. I for my part was sympathising with the parents, as there but for the grace of God go I.
If that was perceived as judging, then fair enough, but that was not my intention.

ekra Sat 05-May-07 12:49:40

thedogsbollox - Excellently put.

RanToTheHills Sat 05-May-07 12:50:37

well I@m with you noodle, not least because I've taken exactly the same "risk" (in v similar circs at MW resorts) as this couple did. I didn't do this lightly, but it felt safe at the time. It's far less risky than parking outside a school or on a pavement for example (as S0 many parents do), it's far less risky than crossing a road, eating shellfish, having the occasional cigarette etc etc

LynetteScavo Sat 05-May-07 12:51:38

In my experience of Mark Warner holidays the nannys go around regularly listening at the the childs door for any noise. If they don't hear anything they presume all is OK. In this instace, that wouldn't have alerted the adults to any danger.

spook Sat 05-May-07 12:55:04

Thingsthatmakeyougohmm-shame on you. "gross irresponsibility" "probably used to a nanny doing it for them"
Lets hope something so tragic never happens to you because there will always be some crass know all's casting judgement.
What possible good can it do for these poor parents making comments like this whilst their baby is still out there without them.
I am shocked-I really am.

WendyWeber Sat 05-May-07 12:55:21

This place isn't a hotel though, LS, so it doesn't do listening - it just offers some kind of creche in the evening, possibly not appropriate for this age.

RanToTheHills Sat 05-May-07 12:56:56

I wouldn't be surprised if MW will have to get their act together a bit more on this now. It wouldn't be difficult/expensive to have phone monitoring baby-listening to each room going through to a central reception area as some hotels do.
Their nanny baby-listening is rather ad hoc and not v efficient, IME. They generally have only a few girls patrolling a large resort of 100+ rooms, easy to miss an imminent problem if they walked past the room at the long time or didn't step close enough to the door, happened to be simultaneously texting boyfriend in UK.

RanToTheHills Sat 05-May-07 12:59:11

I remember chatting to a couple of girls working as nannies and they shattered by evening. From memory, i think they work something like 12 hr days 6 days a week. Doesn't help when they're so knackered by nighfall. I don't blame the parents at all but I do think MW should be reviewing their procedures/staffing levels.

LynetteScavo Sat 05-May-07 13:02:42

I agree, but MW are one of the better holiday companies when it comes to child care. How many parents are now thinking "there but for the grace of God go I." Leaving my children alone isn't something I would do, but I've been given a very hard time by other parents who think I'm over protective.

ruty Sat 05-May-07 13:02:51

agree rantothehills

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 13:02:53

Any news on the 1 o'clock news?

MaloryTowers Sat 05-May-07 13:04:41

i just cant move away from my computer

that poor poor family

my heart goes out to them

ceolas Sat 05-May-07 13:07:29

It's just truly horrific for all concerned.

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 13:10:47

No more news that I can see - but they seem to be thinking now that it wa san organised abduction rather than a random one. the Sky reporter keeps saying "he" now - maybe I missed something - have just been for shower !

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 13:11:03

I am the same Malory, I have been here all morning, still in pj's searching for news.

Please please let her be returned/found soon, she is only little and needs her mum and dad.

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 13:11:56

thanks scatterbrain - organised abduction sounds very very bad.

am so worried for her.

RanToTheHills Sat 05-May-07 13:12:51

at least she may be still alive, there's some hope.

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 13:13:13

Me too - only just got up - so desp for news !

I guess we have to hope it is a misguided individual who just wants a pretty daughter - rather than anything nastier !

So awful

KerryMum Sat 05-May-07 13:13:38

Sorry but haven't read entire thread so this might have been brought up already.

How many days were they there before this terrible event occurred? And was this something they did every night, tuck the kids in bed, make sure they were asleep and then go get a bite to eat themselves, checking on kids? If so, then obviously they were being watched prior to the kidnapping

Don't hotels provide babysitters at resorts (I don't know I've never been to one, just thought it was common). TBH I would never have done what they did, not with kids so young at least. What if there was a fire (smoke kills before flames) or something?

And did someone mention that they had a baby monitor but didn't use it?????

doyouwantfrieswiththat Sat 05-May-07 13:16:17

it beggars belief when you hear some of the lengths abductors will go to. After hearing about Marc Dutroux & Wolfgang Priklopil I think the police would need infra red imaging to properly search a suspects house these days.

LilyLoo Sat 05-May-07 13:22:37

i wonder where the suspect is. Just read that Madeline is with abductor ? is this correct? Radio just confirmed they have a suspect not in custody bue they feel she is still in portugal and is still alive. I really hope so

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 13:24:00

they don't KNOW that she is - but they BELIEVE she is.

hippipotami Sat 05-May-07 13:24:42

RanToTheHills, that is true, where there is life there is hope, lets hope they find these evil B*stards and bring little Maddy back.

But the whole word 'organised' makes me shiver. This was planned, so I presume the abductors are less likely to make a mistake. So cold and evil it does not bare thinking about.

ruty Sat 05-May-07 13:27:11

but they wouldn't say 'believe' without some sort of evidence. they must have a lead.

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 13:28:09

They are now saying "kidnapped" - doesn't that usually mean that they've done it for financial gain ??

In a way that would be better I think - if they get what they want they'll let her go etc

LilyLoo Sat 05-May-07 13:28:41

exactly. This morning they wouldn't even say she had been abducted. Now they have suspect and believe she is alive and in Portugal, they have to have a good lead i would guess to tell the press that wouldn't they ?

Tutter Sat 05-May-07 13:29:16

was interested to see what the me website says about childcare int he evenings

"We offer a ‘dining out service’ (only available for parents using the Millenium and Tapas restaurants) in the crèche on a drop-in basis in the evenings for children aged 4 months to 9 years. For those parents wishing to dine at alternative restaurants in the village, babysitting is available on request at additional charge."

sorry if this has already been posted - haven't read entire thread

Tutter Sat 05-May-07 13:29:36

mw website, i mean

princessmel Sat 05-May-07 13:31:16

I am covered in goosebumps reading this.
Its so awful.I just want to hug her and give her to her family.
The link doyouwantfrieswiththat posted earlier had some really horrid comments on it.
Lets hope this thread can stick to updates instead of mean judgements.

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 13:32:19

it's sky that are saying kidnapped though, and they love a bit of hype.

I would say organized abduction with the name of a suspect sound like it was someone who had a particular motive for abducting this particular child. almost certainly known to the family or with some connection to the family

ekra Sat 05-May-07 13:33:18

It would make more sense that she was kidnapped for financial gain since they only took her and left her twin siblings sleeping. Says I grasping at hopeful straws - not that it is really my place to speculate on such an incident.

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 13:36:48

Yes I thought that - surely if you wanted to take a child to raise as your own you'd take the youngest possible baby - easier to pass of as own and cannot talk etc !

I can't help but feel the abductor must be known to the family in some way - the trouble is there are some seriously unhinged people out there - and we probably all piss someone off every day - maybe this is a revenge act for some little annoyance !

Come on portuguese police - find her - find her quickly !!!

FiveFingeredFiend Sat 05-May-07 13:38:12

I typed "missing girl" into google news. I was astonished what i found from the last 24 hours accross the world.

FiveFingeredFiend Sat 05-May-07 13:39:07

maybe they don't want a child to raise as part of a family .

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 13:40:05

mmmm - I don't want to even start what thinking they want her for really !

Let's just hope it about money - a ransom !

jampot Sat 05-May-07 13:42:05

i imagine if someone was abducting children for financial gain it would be a double whammy to land on twins surely? especially twin babies who looking at the little girl will possibly end up blonde too?


I really hope she is found. I wonder if they've checked out the adjacant apartments for clues

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 13:43:06

Yes but if working alone could he/she have handled two wriggly ones ?

princessmel Sat 05-May-07 13:44:16

Oh god this is so horrible . I keep picturing it. In the dark. someone creeping in. It so awful.

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 13:45:27

if they're after a ransom then they must know who the family are and what they're worth surely. you couldn't just abduct any child and demand a ransom, chances are most people wouldn't be in a position to pay.

thingsmakeyougohhmm Sat 05-May-07 13:49:12

In reply to spook, I stand by what I said. The NSPCC say 'never' leave a young child alone. That's it plain and simple. So why do it. Like everyone on here I hope she is returned safe, and I'm not blaming the parents, I'm raising a question about looking after young children ( it's 24 hours, not on and off you know). Some have said it 'is a calculated risk', to what, leave small children alone for a considerable length of time, in a foreign country, without any ( as far as i know) back up to check on them. That is not a calculated risk, it's pretty stupid. Thanks to those who have updated the MW info - I wasn't sure.

jampot Sat 05-May-07 13:49:28

is anyone else thinking someone who works very closely to the apartments ? or can i even say that on here anymore?

mommajools Sat 05-May-07 13:49:58

didn't the couple just move into a 600,000 home - sure i read that somewhere yesterday

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 13:50:21

Depends hpow "organised" it was I guess.

Maybe they know them - maybe the abductors are Brits, maybe know them through them being doctors as someone has suggested much lower down this thread. maybe they have an axe to gring with them.

OR maybe (which I think more likely) they have been looking out for a reasonably well off family - and for whatever reason they decided that they fitted the bill, maybe it was timings .

So - maybe it's personal or maybe it's not.

I just hope the abductors are looking after Maddie, she must be so scared and confused.

Lovecat Sat 05-May-07 13:51:31

So, thingsmakeyougohmm, you're not blaming the parents and then you call their actions 'pretty stupid'?

And without bothering to find out the facts, ie that someone was going back every half hour to check on them?

Stop being so damn up yourself

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 13:51:53

So what - a £600,0000 house doesn't make them millionaires ! Believe me !

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 13:52:34

is that relevant mommajools

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 13:53:06

it certianly doesn't - sadly

noddyholder Sat 05-May-07 13:53:35

>??????the cost of their house means what?

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 13:54:08

I do find it strange that most people on here think it's wrong to smack a child, as per the nspcc guidelines, but think it's perfectly acceptable to leave a child unsupervised in a strange place in a foreign country.

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 13:54:51

It's just not the right time for the discussion uttermadness - time enough for that once she is found !

motherinferior Sat 05-May-07 13:55:04

Christalmighty, a house in my rather run-down bit of SE London could probably sell for that.

allieBongo Sat 05-May-07 13:55:08

noddy, i think it is linked to the ransom thing ie they are wealthy???

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 13:56:32

a £600,000 house doesn't necessarily mean you are wealthy though - it means all your money and all your income is tied into a bloody big mortgage !

Strange ideas !

allieBongo Sat 05-May-07 13:57:20

not my idea.. i was just referring to an earlier post

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 13:57:41

I know !

RanToTheHills Sat 05-May-07 13:58:52

exactly, a £600k house, relatively speaking, is absolutely nothing these days. They're hardly spectacularly wealthy, just well-paid, joint income professionals. I'd have thought they were targetted, if at all, because of dd and her looks, rather than because of their income. Bound to have been some City types there at the MW resort earning much more than a couple of docs.

donnie Sat 05-May-07 13:59:05

FGS uttermadness you make it sound like the parents just dumped the daughter any old how.

cupcakes Sat 05-May-07 13:59:48

BBC news is annoying me. They keep saying 'Police in Portugal have... [pause] confirmed she has been abducted'. I keep thinking they are going to say she has been found.
And that woman reporter they have there seems to be enjoying it too much, smiling away to the camera at the end of her reports and laughing about her weak portuguese with the local mayor.

allieBongo Sat 05-May-07 14:00:33

i thought we weren't going to argue about the wrongs and the rights. I don't think it was a particularly responsible or safe thing to do, but this is more about keeping up to speed with her being returned safely..

OonaghBhuna Sat 05-May-07 14:00:57

I have been reading this thread and I am shocked by what has happened to this poor little girl she must be terrified and her life will never be the same again, I can only hope that she will be returned safely.

However I also think that this event is so shocking to us all, in a way it is a hard wake up call to all parents.I think people in this thread should be allowed to write how they feel whether it is being judgemental or non judgemental otherwise if we dont allow differing opinions then how do we learn from this.

NuttyMuffins Sat 05-May-07 14:02:42

But not now not when we still don't know wether the poor thing is alive or not or where she is.

God some of you are so bloody annoying and judgementel.

motherinferior Sat 05-May-07 14:03:38

And FWIW, I oppose smacking because it has direct, invoidable consequences IMO. And it would be something I did to my vulnerable children.

Yes, you can argue that these parents did something directly to their own vulnerable children, by leaving them. But even if you followed that argument it would not have direct, unavoidable consequences. Their actions opened them up to a potential act by someone else - the person who is directly culpable in this instance. And the likelihood was amazingly low.

cupcakes Sat 05-May-07 14:04:52

I think that any discussion other than hoping for her safe return is at this time, distasteful. Have some respect for her parents and save these discussions till there has been some resolution.

HenriettaHippo Sat 05-May-07 14:08:24

It is too easy to judge before the full facts are known. Please remember, this is an ongoing investigation, and the details will not all be let out to the public/press. Please also remember, this mother and father may be members of MN, and they may read this thread. I imagine they are going through hell enough without strangers judging them without knowing the exact story.

Please don't judge until you know the full facts. This could have happened to anyone, and if they were being watched for a period of time with a view to abducting this particular little girl, then I am horribly afraid they would have found another time to snatch her.

LynetteScavo Sat 05-May-07 14:12:24

I can't believe people are wanting to discus how much the family's house cost FFS!!!!
It makes absolutely no difference how much money you have. If your child goes missing the awfulness of it all is equal. I've wondered why so many people want to keep chatting about this subject, but have come to the conclusion, that we all feel so helpless, and if we could, we'd all be out in Portugal searching for M. right now.

misdee Sat 05-May-07 14:15:32

people were talking about the cost of the house in relation to whether there wil lbe a ransom.

Kitsya Sat 05-May-07 14:16:33

Any more news?

Stayed in this very resort through Mark Warner last year. The deal with baby listening is not the same as in resorts run exclusively by Mark Warner. As said below, there is no baby listning as such, you have the choice of:

a) dropping kids with nannies in one of 2 creches, they sleep there in cots/blow up beds until you pick them up. Caters for all ages;
b) hiring a nanny as a babysitter;
c) taking your sleeping child/children in buggy with you to eat.

I never really saw leaving the kids in the apartment alone as an option. The appartments are actual holiday appartments (i.e. no the usual Mark Warner style suite of rooms) and so as secure as any appartment at home/away. Some are v close to the Tapas bar. But this is still comparable with leaving your kids in your house whilst eating with neighbours across the street....

amidaiwish Sat 05-May-07 14:20:47

UNLESS ANYONE HAS NEWS, OR WORDS OF SUPPORT THEN PLEASE START YOUR OWN THREAD DISCUSSING THE WRONGS AND RIGHTS OF IT. IT'S DISRESPECTFUL, RUDE AND ANNOYING. THANK YOU.

NuttyMuffins Sat 05-May-07 14:22:16

New thread for discussing latest developments NOT judging the parents here

Zorbadog Sat 05-May-07 14:22:50

I am sorry a lot of you feel upset at the thought of discussing child supervision.

*As an analogy, if a person was knocked over on a busy road, and was in hospital, would you all insist that no-one talk about making the road safer until such time as the person was well again, for fear up upsetting their family. Whilst in the meantime other accidents could occur.*

This thread is entitled "Anybody just seen GMTV? 3 yr old girl abducted on holiday on the Algarve", which I assume was meant to invite comment. There is absolutely no point in opening a thread so that 200 identical posts can be made.

I can assure everyone that I, and any anybody with similar thoughts, hopes as much as anyone that this story has a happy ending, but it achieves nothing to bury your head in the sand.

Perhaps a new thread should be opened discussing child supervision, where anyone wishing to come out from under their wet blankets can join in.

mommajools Sat 05-May-07 14:23:21

i just mentioned that as other posters had mentioned it could be someone they knew and a ransom as the police said it was a kidnap, have a suspect and believe she is in the area which i sincerely hope it is and nothing worse and hope she is reunited with her parents -

amidaiwish Sat 05-May-07 14:23:35

oh, and by the way my children are sitting in the other room, watching makkapakka.
the back door is open
i can't see them

if they are abducted am i somehow to blame?

Tutter Sat 05-May-07 14:24:27

zorbado, absolutely agree

Tutter Sat 05-May-07 14:24:47

oops, missed your g

NuttyMuffins Sat 05-May-07 14:25:53

But now is not the time for discussing it, why can you not see that, you are being so disrespectful.

Blu Sat 05-May-07 14:26:58

Zorbadog - nobody feels upset in principle discussing child safety - stick around and you willll see that many threads every day do just that. But it is clear that freinds and family of the poor child will probably read MN - because it was linked in the major press. And speaking from recent too-painful experience, a MN poster below has pointed out that the last thing a parent in extreme distress needs is people saying 'I would have done this'.

No-one on Mn is afraid of debate or strong views - but we also take seriously the role of supporting people in v difficult circumstances.

That's all people are trying to say.

Zorbadog Sat 05-May-07 14:28:36

Blu

I really appreciate your comment.

Unfortunately I think this question will be asked a lot in the newspapers over the coming days.

Kitsya Sat 05-May-07 14:29:07

I also agree Zorba. I don't feel I'm JUDGING by stating that I wouldn't have done it. I was in the same circumsatnces last year and I didn't. If a thread like this causes others to QUESTION whether or not they would in those circumstances, leave their children unattended, surely that can only be good. We all learn from our own mistakes and those of others. It's not nice but it's real life.

cupcakes Sat 05-May-07 14:29:13

agree with Blu.
At the moment this is not about the bigger picture.
This is about one family in dreadful distress.

ConnieDescending Sat 05-May-07 14:31:25

This story is just terrible and has sent me cold. The parents must be in absolute agony and I am hoping that there will be some positive news very very soon.

However, I do believe that it seems entirely appropriate to be discussing child supervision in light of the events occuring in Portugal.

Kayran Sat 05-May-07 14:32:25

We went to my Brother in laws wedding. Husband had returned from 6 months in Iraq on the thursday and this was the saturday. My little girl was 8 months - so for 6 months it had been just her and me and I had never been apart from her. My husband was best man. When I would not leave my little girl in the hotel room next to the reception room (alone in a pram) to sit on the top table I was told to sit at the back so we would not 'spoil the photos'. This after my DD had had her own invitation! Then in the evening the hotel banned children from 7 pm. Again I would not leave her alone in the hotel bedroom (3 floors away this time)so off I went. My MIL still says I deliberately tried to ruin my BIL's wedding by being so unreasonable and we have not spoken since. So sometimes you can try and do the right thing and get blamed for the wrong reasons.

Tutter Sat 05-May-07 14:32:37

yes yes yes CD, agree

Blu Sat 05-May-07 14:34:01

In this case the parents did what they did...there is no going back on that, I have no doubt they will tear themselves apart asking questions of themselves, and that thier twins will nnow be watched closer than the children of any other parent on this site.

But if anyone is going to take their child on the road in a car today....remember that the risk of them being killed is vastly greater than the risk of them being abducted by a stranger in the coming year - whether you are watching them or not.

Zorbadog Sat 05-May-07 14:36:13

Cupcakes

Apologies for going off thread, but the bigger picture has to be looked at.

What about the distress of thousands of families in Darfur. Only by discussion can not only there be any possibility of perhaps making things better for those involved, but to ensure that events aren't repeated in the future.

NKF Sat 05-May-07 14:37:27

I assume that the people objecting to posters being "judgemental" really mean "critical". We all make judgements every day of our lives don't we? We decide what we think is good, bad, entertaining, wise, silly, safe, unsafe etc. That really isn't the same thing as being critical.

foxinsocks Sat 05-May-07 14:39:13

but I can't see how all you lot saying 'oooh I'd never leave my child like that' actually influences anyone or changes their mind about what they would do. Surely they can come to that conclusion themselves either by being influenced by the story itself or by deciding they are still happy with that level of risk?

ruty Sat 05-May-07 14:39:15

well i am frustrated by the general lack of interest in Darfur both here and elsewhere, but hardly think it is relevant to this thread and whst this poor family are currently living through.

DrDaddy Sat 05-May-07 14:40:43

FYI.

There are 2 definitions of judgmental:

1. Of, relating to, or dependent on judgment: e.g. a judgmental error / error of judgment.
2. Inclined to make judgments, especially moral or personal ones, e.g. a marriage counselor who tries not to be judgmental.

I think the second meaning is implied here. You defined according to the first.

ConnieDescending Sat 05-May-07 14:41:59

I honestly don't know if I would or wouldn't have done the same as the parents given those specific circumstances.

What I do know is that I would never even consider it now in light of what has happened and I think it is a valid discussion to be having.

noddyholder Sat 05-May-07 14:43:41

Some people would leave their kids asleep in their room while having dinner on holiday.
Some people wouldn't.
There.We have had this discussion on here a hundred times and those are the outcomes every time so ne need to keep rehashing it ad infinitum whilst these poor people wait for news of their daughter

NKF Sat 05-May-07 14:43:44

I think neither of those descriptions means the same as "critical."

We make the second kind of judgement every day. All the time. Personal and moral decisions.

Maybe posters don't mean "critical". Maybe they do mean "judgemental". Not sure.

LynetteScavo Sat 05-May-07 14:43:45

Yeah, but were all full of sh*t, aren't we Connie?

GiantSquirrelSpotter Sat 05-May-07 14:44:09

Good point Blu

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Re:First Reports

Date Posted:07/30/2011 1:13 PMCopy HTML

GiantSquirrelSpotter Sat 05-May-07 14:44:09

Good point Blu

When kids get killed in car accidents, no-one says "the parents shouldn't have taken them in the car."

And yet the chances of that happening, are much, much higher than what has happened to this poor family

NKF Sat 05-May-07 14:46:46

But sorry to keep returning to this. Is it unacceptable for someone to say they wouldn't do it? Is that regarded as critical or (as I would see it) a personal decision.

Ladymuck Sat 05-May-07 14:47:35

OK, if we are inevitably discussing the pros and cons of taking your children on holiday does this mean that those of you who are horrified about the parents not being in the apartment would also expect the parents to be actually in the same room? Or is it acceptable to be asleep in a different room from your 3 children? After all I presume that 2 children were still left sleeping in the room, so if the parents were asleep next door they might not have heard anything - especially if there are a lot of people in the resort. I'm just wondering at what point you experience compassion rather than horror at the parents fecklessness?

This is a tragic event. Just as tragic as say the number of toddlers who die every year from drowning - presumably they also have stupid parents who take their children on holiday near water without physically strapping them to themselves.

I note that the newspaper coverage so far aren't blaming the parents, but in fact at questioning whether the police have responded quickly and thoroughly enough. Though I haven't read the Mail yet - presumably it is only a matter of time. But like most of you I'm hoping and praying for a positive outcome for the family.

I suspect that this incident will do a great deal of harm to Mark Warner though. I've been on a number of their holidays and I will be amazed if the local MW staff even speak Portuguese. They're going to have to tread very carefully to get out of this one without either blaming the parents (ignoring the fact that many of the parents will have done similar) or implying that their facilities were not up to scratch. They may well try to defend themselves as merely supplying certain facilties and not being responsible for all aspects of the site, but given the prices they charge and the reputation that they try to maintain I suspect that they're screwed whatever the outcome.

NuttyMuffins Sat 05-May-07 14:47:40

It is unacceptable to keep going on about it right now yes, well IMO anyway.

donnie Sat 05-May-07 14:49:34

well said ladymuck.

Marina Sat 05-May-07 14:50:29

Do Mark Warner employ any local people at all in their resorts ladymuck?

Kitsya Sat 05-May-07 14:53:31

I don't think anyone is blaming the parents. I think we are all desperately shocked and saddened by the news and are asking ourselves the would we/would we not question and not really knowing where to draw the line. As long as there are people out there who have noideas about moral boundaries (I'm talking about the abductor here!), it is in fact impossible to avoid all danger.

We've all taken calculated risks with our children, as this poor family did and we all will do so again. A thread like this is a good way of helping us all to help process our thoughts. I am 100% sure there is not one person here who is here to criticise.

Zorbadog Sat 05-May-07 14:56:27

Absolutely.

If just one comment makes a parent think twice about their child safety, it has been worthwhile.

foxinsocks Sat 05-May-07 14:59:37

LM, the Mark Warner bloke came across very well this morning on TV - looked incredibly concerned (had obviously been up all night). I read all the papers this morning and the coverage was very similar (most of them mentioning the fact that MW had a service where the children could be dropped off and looked after while the parents had a meal but the parents had chosen not to use it for whatever reason. So not being directly critical but pointing it out iyswim).

Connie, you've based that decision on the story not on people saying they wouldn't have done it in the first place though.

No matter what the parents did, it's the person/persons who did this who are the focus of my thoughts. Someone determined to grab a child could grab them off the street when they are a few steps in front of you - you just CANNOT protect your child against every single risk in the world. We can't live our lives thinking that there's a potential paedophile round every corner.

Ladymuck Sat 05-May-07 15:00:10

It really varies from site to site as far as I can see. They do not own the hotels - these are usually locally owned, though I think that they use a Hilton on one site now. MW recruit British sailing staff, kids club staff , tennis coaches, gym instructors, beauty therapists and nannies as well as team leaderss for these areas. I have seen a mix between MW and local staff on restaurant staff and life guards and generally cleaning, gardening, cooking, recpetion and security have been local staff (employed by hotel and not MW). Locations such as Lakitira in Kos have 2 managers - the hotel manager and the MW mamager who somehow work together. But customers are buying a package from MW.

I could imagine that in a crisis situation that this dual responsibility goes somehow tits up, and I really feel for the paretns who will be trying to deal with local procedures possibly with less than impressive backup from MW. I am however very impressed to hear that British police and family liaison staff are out there with them and that the Embassy staff got their act together so quickly - so perhaps I'm being too quick to criticise MW. It is just one of those hideous situations that most of us don't analyse until something like this happens.

Ladymuck Sat 05-May-07 15:09:54

FiS - it is one of the very few MW resorts that does have the creche (which is in lieu of its usual room listening service). If the resort had had a room listening service, and the abductor had closed the door behind him then it could have been many hours before the parents had realised that the child was taken. Which is one of the reasons why I think that MW is going to suffer fallout from this. And I suspect from many parents of under 5s a night creche is not their first choice of care.

Marina Sat 05-May-07 15:11:28

I agree the MW manager on the news looked properly concerned and came across well.
I asked because I have heard criticism from locals on Corsica in the past that MW and other similar complexes didn't employ locals on principle for the more high-profile, better-paid jobs, and it was a cause of heated resentment.
It was only one POV but that conversation stuck with me and it's been a factor in our not choosing that sort of holiday.
Sounds like times have changed at MW, which is good.

donnie Sat 05-May-07 15:15:00

I think MW will suffer too - people will come to associate their brand name with disaster.
It's a shame because we have always found their childcare really superb. We have been to Lemnos twice and Lakitira once and it was excellent.

SparklyGothKat Sat 05-May-07 15:16:24

this is terrible, I have to say, I went to menorca last year, we put the kids to bed at the back of the apartment, which was on the ground floor, while we sat out the front of the apartment, TBH anyone could have got into the apartemnt from the road and taken one of our children. I hope against every hope that they find this little girl.

littlemissbossy Sat 05-May-07 15:30:10

That's a very good point SparklyGK
For those of you on here who've been quick to judge the parents, how many of you have sat on a balcony or terrace with your children tucked up in bed in your apartment or villa? I have, many times - it could happen to anyone

lucyellensmum Sat 05-May-07 15:38:55

something is bothering me - why didn't the other two children wake up, did they, it said in the times this am that little maddie was left sleeping between them, am i to assume this means the same bed?

I just want that little girl back with her mummy, Please God.

McDreamy Sat 05-May-07 15:40:45

They were only 2 years old, deep sleepers? - Once my 20 month old is asleep you'd have a hard job waking him!!!

ScoobyDooooo Sat 05-May-07 15:44:26

lucyellensmum - It was said that the Girl/boy twins were asleep in a cot either side of the single bed, so Maddy was sleeping between each of them..

lucyellensmum Sat 05-May-07 15:46:25

oh, i didnt know that, teach me to read properly, actually i do remember something vaguely on the news. I'm just scratching around for explanations because i can't bear to think of what might be happening to this wee lass. So pretty, so innocent, God be with her

makkapakka Sat 05-May-07 16:12:18

I imagine it is someone with links to the hotel (member of staff maybe) as they seems pretty sure who is is - they obv haven't turned up for work, I reckon.

just hope they're not too late.

ElenyaTuesday Sat 05-May-07 16:16:59

foxinsocks, interesting point. As a small child, my dh was literally snatched from the street whilst walking with his mum and sister. Luckily a stranger chased the man and caught up with him. But it CAN happen!! I hope this little mite is home soon.

Judy1234 Sat 05-May-07 16:24:23

Some of us, me included, are only interested because they are "people like us" who might go on Mark Warner holidays and leave our children in hotel rooms whilst we eat - I've done that for years and it's a perfectly acceptable practice. What is so sad is a child from a family like mine hsa been taken and that in itself is interesting. On 9/11 people felt more for those rich brokers at Canton Fitzgerald who were killed than for the thousands dying of hunger in Africa every day because they are "people like us". In London murdered white lawyers get press coverage and murdered poor blacks less.

Anyway I wonder if we can think laterally as to any clever ways to have her found. What is the most likely explanation when a child goes like that - it seems there was forced entry etc. Sometimes it's a local nutter - a mother whose child died and wants another. Sometimes there's trafficking for adoption or worse - she's blonde and pretty and white. Speed is the thing. The more time passes the less chance of finding her and more likely she's dead.

Also most crime is by someone who knows you although I expect it's unlikely to be the parents here. It could be hotel staff though or another guest. Often they find children very close by and over look that. Natasha who was taken in Germany was hidden not too far away for 10 years or something. They need to look again and again locally. If I were the family I'd hire my own local investigators too and ask amongst the local community and offer big bribes.

Furrymummy Sat 05-May-07 16:27:21

They believe that she is alive and been held between 1-3 miles from the resort - so I think you may be on to something Xenia.

makkapakka Sat 05-May-07 16:29:04

yes, I am sure it must be a hotel employee or guest.

Judy1234 Sat 05-May-07 16:31:22

Oh great. I hope so.

They never found that boy Ben who went missing on Kos about 15 years ago, a few sightings of a blonde boy over the years but he was never found alive or dead.

WendyWeber Sat 05-May-07 16:32:04

There is this:

<<Meanwhile British tourist George Burke claimed he had seen a couple carrying a young child early yesterday morning. Mr Burke, from Liverpool, was driving back from Lagos, just a few miles from Praia de Luz. He said: “I couldn’t see them clearly as it was dark and windy — but I thought it was odd. They scurried down a side road.”>>

Not widely reported though so maybe irrelevant.

tortoiseSHELL Sat 05-May-07 16:32:08

I wondered about it being a hotel employee.

makkapakka Sat 05-May-07 16:33:38

must be, I think - and presumably hasn't come to work yesterday/today.

Judy1234 Sat 05-May-07 16:35:34

George Burke, whoever he is might have seen it then. Might depend on timings. One risk is those holding her panic and kill her so it must be a hard job for police to get the right balance.

VeniVidiVickiQV Sat 05-May-07 17:03:54

THe resort is based in and around a port then? I didnt realise.

Maybe she's on a boat then?

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 17:34:57

a port ? oh shit.

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 17:39:02

suggestion that it could be a hotel employee though is pure speculation. surely anyone who is clever enough to time an abduction so carefully as to be sure it occurred when no one was in the area, and to target a particular child like that, isn't so stupid that they then wouldn't show up for work the next day and immediately shift the suspicion on to themselves?

quietmouse Sat 05-May-07 17:43:37

this is so truly awful. It could be an employee but it looks like quite a busy area with roads around it and access by the public so it is quite possible it could be any local person.

It is un nerving to think she has been individually targeted. She is such a beautiful little girl and was the eldest within their party so has obviously been 'chosen'

I just feel so heartbroken for these parents and can not begin to imagine their pain. I just think this is the worst kind of torture, not knowing what is happening to her. Worse in some ways than her being killed outright - not knowing if she's suffering.

I think laying any blame on the parents is disgraceful. We all do things differently. They are clearly loving, devoted parents and anything but prayer and support for them is totally un necessary and has no place on a parenting forum, imo.

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 17:45:18

and even suggestion that she's alive is only speculation, unless they have a negotiator in there or similar which is doubtful especially as they've said they're unwilling to release an image of the suspect so as not to put her in danger.

the reports were 6 hours ago, there have been no further updates. if they were that close to knowing where she was they would have found her by now.

if the resort surrounds a port, my guess would be that whoever abducted her would have been out of the country even before any ports could be notified. or if their motives were more sinister, a port is an ideal place to be if you want to get rid of a body.

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 17:47:39

don't think anyone feels anything but sympathy for the parents, and those that have expressed shock at the fact someone would leave their child aren't specifically blaming anyone, but those are valid questions, and once this is resolved, are questions that will almost certainly be asked of the parents by the media, and will be discussed in depth on tv/radio.

Cazee Sat 05-May-07 17:47:40

The Guardian newspaper today has 3 quotes from this discussion on its second page.
No-one should judge these parents. We all accept different levels of risk. I have fallen asleep while my DS (6) has been playing football in the back garden. Some parents would frown on that, others let their 6 year olds play unsupervised in the street. The real level of risk for this family was tiny, they could see the front door from where they were sitting and checked regularly. It is just unbeleivable what happened.

princessmel Sat 05-May-07 17:54:14

Any updates? been out all afternoon.

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 17:55:25

and the comments on some of the message boards of the papers are a whole lot harsher than those on this thread. no one has said the parents are to blame on here, people have simply questioned how a parent could go out and leave their child while they went for a meal, in the same way as people would question why a parent would drink and drive, or not strap a child into a car seat.

but some on other boards are suggesting that charges should be brought, and other children taken into care etc.

the parents aren't going to be coming on here to read what people are saying, really they aren't. and as inteligent, well educated people who have probably cast judgement over people in their own professions, they will be all to aware that not everyone will have viewed their actions as wise.

2shoes Sat 05-May-07 17:56:09

i do so hope she is found safe and sound.
do you think now is the time to debate the rights and wrongs of the parents actions.
lets all just send positive vibes and prayers that the little tot is found safe and sound.

quietmouse Sat 05-May-07 17:57:16

but blame serves no purpose and guilt is a useless emotician.

Don't you think these parents are going to be beating themselves up for ever more? they don't need others joining in too.

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 18:22:36

I too hope that she is found safe and well, but I think that's unlikely.

Often police say that they think a child is alive, they did it when sarah Payne went missing, when Holly and Jessica went missing, they can say it while there's no evidence to prove otherwise, because for one it helps keep the parents' spirits up while they believe there is still hope, and secondly more people will generally help with a search if they think they're looking for a live little girl than if they think they're looking for a body.

oxocube Sat 05-May-07 18:32:39

uttermadness, the reports of parents on other boards casting such blame are truly disgusting.

Blu Sat 05-May-07 18:35:37

"in the same way as people would question why a parent would drink and drive, or not strap a child into a car seat. "
Both those things are illegal. Both contribute to the statistics that make car travel a far far more dangerous activity than other 'normal' things we do in our lives.

I can understand that, though the chances of abduction remain really really small, some parents who would have sat within a holiday comples within sight of their children's room will now not choose too. And that is very different from saying 'well I would never had done what they did...' Why not, since it carries such a small risk compared to ordinary driving? And how is that helpful to these parents, dicussed on this thread, now? And it doesn't take 'discusion' to identify that on that night in that place, it WAS a dangerous thing to do....every parent, and all the non parents - in the land will be feeling the horror of it - it doesn't need 'discussion'- unles to say 'well, actually the risk remains tiny so once the emotional impact of this has faded for those of us who are not closely ivolved, we probably might do exactly as these parents have done.

But, Uttermadness, I am pleased you feel able to be confident about what the parents and their freinds and family might read, and how they will feel, and how they would interpret people saying 'I wouldn't have done it' - in contradiction to a MN parent who has recent experience of actually losing a child....

Blu Sat 05-May-07 18:37:50

I meant to say that it is exactly the comparison between drin driving etc - and what has happened, that is so judgemental - the parents did nothing like an illegal act - they did what many people consider to be normal and actually go on hol to do. To make it comparable with thoise acts is highly judgemental!

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 18:38:38

absolutely. I have been one that has questioned how a parent could go out and leave their child, and I had asked whether the parents would be held to account if it turned out this little girl hadn't been abducted, but that wasn't asked in judgement, it was a genuine question as to whether they would be put through that additional hell, and while I think that the debate over whether parents should leave their children unsupervised like that is a very valid one, I think that if this doesn't have a positive outcome, those parents will have to live with their decision for the rest of their lives, and I certainly wouldn't want that kind of action taken against them.

thedogsbollox Sat 05-May-07 18:42:26

Here - for those that are obsessed with raking over the parent's decision.

MN consideration of the question in hand, without attaching it to the current situation!

here!

donnie Sat 05-May-07 18:43:26

oh just leave it now. It's gone far enough.

Judy1234 Sat 05-May-07 18:47:22

I would certainly leave children that age again in those circumstances and go and eat. It wouldn't change my views a bit just as I let the teenagers get night buses back from London. You just take your own view on risk. Most killing is done by people you know at home so being with loved ones is the most dangerous course you can take actually.

I think 30 people have called with information and possible sightings and it's interesting they would say she's being held within a mile radius if that were not so. I think the father's sister has been critical of the local police and their lack of initial concern.

elasticbandstand Sat 05-May-07 18:52:05

One thing is her distinguishing pupil, which would help in finding her.

poor poor family.

kimi Sat 05-May-07 18:52:14

The only thing i can say on this thread is...
There but for the grace of god!

PeterAndreFanCLub Sat 05-May-07 18:53:16

<thansk god fro ds3s droopy eye>

Wouldnt leave my 2 alone in such a situation and they're the same age. Not cause I'm worried about kidnapping, but only because I remember waking up while my parents had left me and my little brother alone while they had gone for a drink around the corner while the neighbour was keeping an ear out. I was so upset because I could not find my parents and they had not told me that they had gone out. I cried my eyes out and so I would never do that to my own 2.

Oh and of course the whole thing has been on my mind ever since it hit the news. My dd is the same age and I cannot imagine what anguish the parents must be going through. My thoughts really are with them, whatever I may think about their decision to leave their lo's asleep alone.

Enid Sat 05-May-07 18:59:22

I would
I wouldnt
I would
I wouldnt

god who cares what any of us would do

debate totally inappropriate imo

SueW Sat 05-May-07 19:15:15

uttermadness: "surely anyone who is clever enough to time an abduction so carefully as to be sure it occurred when no one was in the area, and to target a particular child like that, isn't so stupid that they then wouldn't show up for work the next day and immediately shift the suspicion on to themselves?"

BUt that's what people who plan crimes sometimes do!

E.g. Banking: people spend years perfecting the ultimate way to siphon off a load of dosh then don't come into work. International transfer to foreign account and flight out of the country that evening.

noddyholder Sat 05-May-07 19:35:05

uttermadness-harsh

utterMadness Sat 05-May-07 19:49:18

sue not turn up for work and get out of the country yes, but not turn up for work and stay in the area? surely not. it's one thing to know you'll be a suspect but to be miles away, where you might be able to get a new identity and where you can lie low until all this dies down, but it's quite a different matter if you plan to stay locally. but then I guess it depends on the motive for the abduction. if it was for child trafficing purposes or because you were a desperate childless person then imo you'd get out as quickly as possible. if the motive were more sinister and there were no live child at the end of it you might stick around and hope you were never caught.

quietmouse Sat 05-May-07 19:52:04

utterMadness, I don't know you and I really don't mean to be rude but I am finding some of your posts on this thread deeply insensitive.

You don't know who of the little girls family and friends may be reading this, and talk of a body etc is just really too horrible at this time.

Wilkie Sat 05-May-07 20:20:45

Have skim read a lot of this thread and read many opposing posts.

I think people are being extremely harsh on both sides.

People such as Uttermadness are entitled to their opinion - surely, whoever started this thread didn't just expect a bunch of MNers to come on here and basically all post the same message of how tragic and sad it is.

It will envitably raise the question of whether or not leaving your children unattended in a hotel room is unacceptable.

Rhubarb, you earlier lengthy post contained the words 'smugly smothering' which I find extremely offensive. You stand in judgement of people who would choose NOT to leave their children unattended in a hotel room - as much as I disagree with these parents I don't judge them as you are doing to others

Having read various news reports my opinions and thoughts are these: I believe there is more to the story than is being reported, I personally think leaving children aged 2x2yrs and 3 is irresponsible but I am sure with hindsight these poor poor parents now are greatly regretting this decision (I in no way BLAME them or think they should be charged for doing such a thing) but there are laws in this country about leaving your children unattended in your home so why should it be different on holiday???

I feel so so sorry for those poor parents and hope desperately that this little girl is found alive, safe and well.

veraduckworthshandbag Sat 05-May-07 20:22:41

Some of you have been very judgemental of these poor parents for leaving the children.
I am sure this family are thinking WHAT IF and having to deal with so much.
While the lovely mumsnetter can all sit back and pat yourselves on the back whit how clever you all are as you have never done anything that could have turned out badly.

I am sure this family will be glad to know the holier then thou mumsnetters who protect their children from the evils of sausage rolls and fruit shoots have been judge and jury over the right or wrongs of leaving the children alone.

Just so as we are all clear I take t that anyone who posts they have lost a child will meet with the same "well it was their fault" mentality. Cot death well must have let baby get too hot or too old or laid wrong, still birth well must have done something wrong in the pregnancy, special needs, must be something the parents did/did not do, can't get pregnant well must be their life style, partner fun off, well they can't have been a good wife/girlfriend.

Then you can all sit back and rejoice in how fucking clever and perfect you are, that it has not happened to you.

FioFio Sat 05-May-07 20:23:32

Message deleted

NuttyMuffins Sat 05-May-07 20:23:39

Here here Vera.

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 20:24:06

No news Fio !

ThatBeetroot Sat 05-May-07 20:25:48

it is getting to the point now when I am beginning to fear the worst

quietmouse Sat 05-May-07 20:26:21

very well said vera

expatinscotland Sat 05-May-07 20:27:38

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 20:27:55

Me too Beetroot - but hopefuly there is a lot that we don't know, hopefully the police have a lot more info than they've released.

belgianbun Sat 05-May-07 20:29:21

Hear hear Vera

AttilaTheMeerkat Sat 05-May-07 20:29:38

These parents acted as they thought best at the time. If anything they are "guilty" (please note quote marks) of complacency and of being in "holiday mode". But we can all slip into complacency and holiday mode and perhaps do things abroad that we would not dream of doing in the UK.

I sincerely hope she is found, all we can do is hope for the best.

Wilkie Sat 05-May-07 20:30:30

Veraduckworth - I for one am not a holier-than-thou Mumsnetter. I believe in smacking, early weaning, a few sweets never did any harm and where's the problem with a sausage roll?

I'm not 'fucking clever and perfect' as you so eloquently put it just a mother with an opinion which is exactly what MN is all about.

If you read my post properly - I desperately desperately am hoping and praying that this little girl is found safe and well.

PinkChick Sat 05-May-07 20:31:49

im not getting into the whole obvious argument.i have my own views.BUT i cant stop thinking of this poor tiny little child, i wish i could hold her and tell her shes going to be alright, i strongly believe(dont know why?) she IS alive but i just hope whoever has taken her hasnt harmed her in anyway and sees the good sense and understanding to let her back into her paretns arms, cant stop filling up about this , my dd was 4 two weeks ago, this precious little girl is four next week, if i, a total stranger can feel so upset about this i couldnt begin to imagine how her parents must feel, i couldnt go on without my daughter, i really couldnt..god help her, make her safe and bring her back hometo her family.

littlemissbossy Sat 05-May-07 20:32:30

well said vera
wilkie - vera probably hadn't even read your post, not unless she's a really quick typist

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 20:32:47

For Goodness sake - it could have happened HERE - it could have happened from their own house whilst they were watcing TV !!!

It was a crime !! Bad people commit crimes - the parents did nothing to encourage the crime !

Focus on the real issue which is GETTING HER BACK SAFELY - not blaming anyone except the b***d who took her !

NKF Sat 05-May-07 20:33:34

It goes without saying surely that everyone wants to see the little girl returned to her family. I also think that people run the eating out scenario through their minds and think "would I do that?" and "have I done that?" and "what do I think about that?" That's human nature. If your answer is different to the one the parents made that doesn't make you holier than thou or smug. I don't think so anyway.

PinkChick Sat 05-May-07 20:34:14

what about the story a while back about the little girl abducted from her own bathroom while mum was in bedroom, its a very scry place we live in, 200yards, 2 feet?

scatterbrain Sat 05-May-07 20:35:05

Exactly !

rabbleraiser Sat 05-May-07 20:37:36

I haven't got involved in this thread, and I'm not going to make any further posts. I just think it should be wrapped up now. Enough said, and a bit unseemly under the circumstances.

maisym Sat 05-May-07 20:37:42

wilkie - agree with you.

think on holiday things can seem safer than home.

kimi Sat 05-May-07 20:38:18

I remember something about a child being snatched from a caravan site while her family were asleep in the same caravan on a holiday site.
Somebody has taken that poor little girl for god knows what reason, but from what I have read and heard it would seem they targeted her rather then just seized the chance to grab her.
I think if someone "selected" her then there is a good chance she is being kept somewhere rather then something worse (I can't bring myself to type you know what).

I am praying that she is back with her family soon.

CuriousSquid Sat 05-May-07 20:45:07

i don't want to read the whole thread but i wondered if there was any news yet?has she been found?

littlemissbossy Sat 05-May-07 20:46:50

No hasn't been found. They have a suspect "in mind" and believe she is still alive

quietmouse Sat 05-May-07 20:46:54

no, no news as yet

noddyholder Sat 05-May-07 20:47:33

I think this is about the person or persons who planned andcalculated to commit this dreadful act and nothing really to do with the parents.I fainted once outside a supermarket when ds was 3 and I was on my own with him.I was 'out'for about 6 minutes and no harm came to him{thank god} but the opportunity was there but there was no 'bad'person there reasy to pounce.

expatinscotland Sat 05-May-07 20:49:47

Just so sickened by this.

My three-year-old (she will be 4 in June) is just now starting to twig about the big, wide world and she sometimes wakes in teh night to make sure her Mummy and Daddy are still there.

She takes frights at the oddest things - puppets, a sprinkler, Dr. Who, etc.

Can't imagine what kind of a sick, twisted FUCK goes and takes a child like that.

I really and truly can't.

But it makes me want to be sick.

quietmouse Sat 05-May-07 20:51:35

yes, my 3 year old is like that. She doesn't like coats hanging on doors or dark marks on walls (where they are about to be painted)

I can't bear to think about it. I feel devastated by this. Really and truly.

kimi Sat 05-May-07 20:54:33

In the news :A thread to discuss DEVELOPMENTS regarding Maddie McCann

Talk on here

snowwonder Sat 05-May-07 20:55:44

i sincerley hope they get some news soon how awful to have to think about your baby with someone else, i hope she is well - poor poor girl,


this has totally made me rethink camping alone with my girls this year, it is frightening

Baysmum Sun 06-May-07 19:20:40

Would just like to say that I have returned today from the Ocean Club resort in Praia de Luz after the shocking events of last week. There is a lot I could say in response to some of your comments but what I really want to stress is that while I dont know about Maddie's mum, I DO know that very close friends of the family are MNers as has been speculated upon in this thread. I dont know if that will have any bearing upon what people will and will not post. Even though I was there and my DS was playing most afternoons in a group of kids which included poor Maddie, I still dont know the full story and therefore would not be looking to cast any blame at this point.

littlemissbossy Sun 06-May-07 19:24:49

OMG Baysmum, how awful for you
I hope you've seen the other thread that hasn't involved the arguing

quietmouse Sun 06-May-07 20:02:13

i think these threads should be pulled.... sorry.

I find this all very, very offensive tbh.

How anyone can feel anything but compassion and sadness for these poor souls is beyond me

sorkycake Sun 06-May-07 20:15:00

Would anyone object strongly to this thread being deleted? Not for oppressive censorship issues but simply because....well I don't know about you lot but this thread being available to the family to read is making me feel seriously uncomfortable. People have had a chance to express their varied views on the situation, but can this thread now be deleted?

quietmouse Sun 06-May-07 20:18:24

I have contacted MNHQ and asked for these threads to be deleted so I am hoping so too. I can't bear the thought of them being read or maybe picked up by the media or something.

Really horrible

LIZS Sun 06-May-07 20:20:05

I agree. If by any chance the family or friends come here looking for support , I'd hate some of these comments to be the first thing they read on MN. Who knows, perhaps they already have

Sorry but this is so not what MN is normally about. Such debate is fine in its place but not at the expense of compassion for fellow parents surely.

Whoooosh Sun 06-May-07 20:21:53

I think the thread should be pulled-so

Astrophe Sun 06-May-07 20:22:46

I agree, get rid of it. It serves no helpful purpose, and could be so hurtful.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Sun 06-May-07 20:29:42

no I don't think the threads should be pulled. not only because I think it's wrong to sensor the thoughts of people - and believe me far, far worse have been written on this subject on many other sites and will most likely be published in the media, but if you pull the threads, then not only the comments you wouldn't want the family to see will be gone, but also the comments you would want the family to see.

Personally I think it's highly unlikely they would ever come on to the internet looking for threads about this, and if they ever did, it won't be for a very long time, but imagine if they came on to mn, the top parenting site in the UK, and found no threads, no discussion, good or bad, about what happened to their little girl? what message will that send to them do you think? it sends the message that a group of mums weren't interested enough in their situation to have a discussion about it, because they wouldn't be any the wiser as to the threads having been pulled.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 20:31:03

If Mumsnet pulled threads that could cause distress to people who might read it at some point, it would be left with discussions on shopping.

expatinscotland Sun 06-May-07 20:32:30

Well said, NFK.

I think the last thing they're doing is going onto parenting sites on the WWW for 'support'.

quietmouse Sun 06-May-07 20:34:22

what reason is there for keeping them? They are disgusting. I can not believe some of you are mothers - seriously.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 20:35:56

What reason is there for keeping them? From mumsnet's point of view, it's traffic to their website. And a high number of hits and posts are good for advertising revenue. The same reason the newspapers are following the story. Did you think there was something else going on?

quietmouse Sun 06-May-07 20:37:37

great reason, that is

LIZS Sun 06-May-07 20:43:55

If journalists are already using Friends Reunited it is perfectly possible, given the slow speed of this case developing, that they will trawl further and come across this, making negative stories from selective comments on MN.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 20:46:19

Well, of course website exchanges will be minded for useful material.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 20:51:31

That was meant to read "mined".

MummyPenguin Sun 06-May-07 21:08:48

Haven't been on MN all weekend, have been out and about and glued to Sky News following coverage on Madeleine.

Have just read most of the posts, and frankly, I thought it would be the case that it's turned into a debate/war of words.

As for pulling the thread, I don't know, perhaps it should be pulled.

All I can say on the subject, my personal opinion, is that when I heard that the parents had left the children in the room while they ate, I felt uncomfortable. I felt, and still do, that they are too young. At the very least, one or more of them could have woken and started crying and the parents wouldn't have been able to hear them from where they were seated.

I don't think anyone should be jumping on anyone, everyone is going to have their own opinion as to whether the parents were in the wrong or not.

We've all at one time or another made parenting decisions, perhaps took a risk, and then looked back and thought that perhaps we should have acted differently. Maddie's parents took a risk and are now paying the ultimate price. They will live with this forever. Even if Maddie comes home, which please God she will, it will still haunt them.

My heart goes out to them. I just hope there's a happy ending to this, that little Madeleine turns up safe and well.

Baysmum Sun 06-May-07 21:49:54

This kind of speculation is exactly what I was talking about in my earlier posting. Fine, say if YOU personally would or would not leave a child in a room while you ate close by. Please don't cast aspertions on the particular family in question because, as far as Im aware they DID have a baby monitor with them on that night and could hear the children. As I also said, I dont know about Madeleine's mother, but close friends of the family DO come to this website for advice and support - that is a fact.

littlelapin Sun 06-May-07 21:51:17

Baysmum, can I suggest that you contact MNHQ (if you haven't already) and request deletion of this thread giving your reasons. They can then decide what to do, and this pointless "let's vote!" thing can be over and done with.

quietmouse Sun 06-May-07 21:57:29

they are watching the thread but not ready to pull it yet

Baysmum Sun 06-May-07 22:00:32

I don't know if the thread should be deleted or not tbh. I know my friends expect this kind of talk from certain quarters but possibly not mumsnet. All Im saying is that I feel upset that close friends are basically being criticised by people who do not really have the full facts. I was there and I do not have the full facts. I'm not against discussion and I admit that this experience will probably change some of my own future parenting decisions. Discussion and debate is healthy and may even have positive effects in the future BUT while people can obviously speak out about what they personally would or would not do or similar situations they have been in, I feel people should be very careful when judging this very critical situation without full knowledge of what exactly happened - or worse - untrue reports which have emerged. Perhaps I am over sensitive as have been travelling home all day and obv spent the last 2 nights without much sleep, watching my ds.

chipmonkey Sun 06-May-07 22:26:56

Baysmum

belgianbun Sun 06-May-07 22:28:06

Thank you for the voice of reason baysmum - what an awful few days you must have had. I hope you all take some comfort from being safe and warm in your own beds tonight.

And of course I pray that the McCann's are able to do the same asap.

lemonstartree Sun 06-May-07 22:34:34

easy easy to be smug

easy to say "i would never do that "

i tell you have ALL been open to having your child abducted by a sinister determined child abductor

ALL of you.

the poor parents have done nothing, taken no risks that you ALL have not done

stop being so F**NG sanctimonious and pray for that childs
safe return which sadly seems increasingly unlikely.

her poor parents, can you not imagine, feel for , their anguish??

I repeat , every every parent takes risks every every day.....

chocolatebirdy Sun 06-May-07 22:40:20

Delete it.

WestCountryLass Sun 06-May-07 22:42:12

It doesn't actually matter whether they were right or wrong or the exact details of how what happened has happened, all that matters is a little girl is missing

Poor little thing will just want her Mum and Dad, love her, I hope she is reunited with her parents soon.

Nightynight Sun 06-May-07 23:20:26

We have talked about these sort of issues so often before on MN and had quite heated threads, and I would usually have taken the risk that this family is reported to have taken, before this happened.
Obviously, my feeling has changed now

totaleclipse Sun 06-May-07 23:35:32

I so hope there is news soon, its so much harder to think about at night, poor poor girl

lizmoo Sun 06-May-07 23:44:08

Please do not be judgemental, no one is a perfect parent. We were there last week, at the Mark Warner Club in Praira de Luz, with our daughter who was with Maddy in the Mini Club.

We commented on how "safe" the area felt, but on Thursday night the big bad world came to our safe haven. Please just pray that for whatever reason she was taken,Maddy is being kept safe and sound and will soon be returned.

All the parents there knew, that, but for the grace of god, it could of been their child. Were we all watched?

Many searched all night on Thursday and Friday, no one slept on Friday night. They say lightning doesn't strike twice, but when you are part of the press hysteria, helicopters whirring in the sky and sniffer dogs barking and see the torment of the parents and friends,fear sets in.

We are safely home, but that doesn't stop the anguish that all the Mark Warner guests feel for the McCann family.

Mark Warner were brilliant and the nannies exceptional, they see the children every day and must grow close. They are now caring for the McCann twins, family and friends.

The message board should stay, just so everyone can pray and send good vibes to that little girl somewhere alone in the Algarve. Hug your children and keep them close.

nappyaddict Sun 06-May-07 23:48:52

i don't think they were wrong at all. we've used a baby listening service where the kids were checked every half an hour. no different at all.

my heart goes out to them

they are lucky ... ok not lucky, but you know what i mean, that all 3 of them didn't disappear.

haven't been keeping up on this very well so sorry if this has already been asked but when they found maddy missing were the twins still asleep?

WendyWeber Sun 06-May-07 23:52:52

I don't think that's been mentioned, na.

I just had a look at the Sky website and saw the piece about the parents going to the Mother's Day service today. All the mothers are given flowers which they then give to Mary - one of the children in the congregation gave flowers to Madeleine's mum

Georgie11 Sun 06-May-07 23:57:08

First and foremost, let us hope that the Portugese police are right and that Madeleine is alive.

On the parent's actions, I never left my daughter in a similar situation although I did take her to Sharm El Sheik 2 months after the bombings there (a difficult decision) but she had a brilliant time and thankfully we all returned home safely. We all make conscious decisions about our children's safety and often taken actions unconsciously, without taking every 'what if' into account. In this case, the parents were nearing the end of their holiday, they had left the children before to go out to eat and probably felt more at ease the more they did it. Ironically, their sense of security gave the pervert the one in a million chance they needed to abduct their child.

The only guilt that should be apportioned is to the person/people who have carried out this terrible, terrible act

glassslipper Mon 07-May-07 08:42:48

lizmoo and baysmum Thanks for taking the time to post on here as I imagine it wasnt high on your list of priorities right now. Hope you and your children are ok.

Budababe Mon 07-May-07 08:52:41

lizmoo and baysmum - this must have been horrendous.

I keep waking up in the night an wondering if there is any news. Wondering about that poor child and not being able to get back to sleep. God only knows how her parents are keeping themselves sane.

Lots of prayers here for them all.

OrmIrian Mon 07-May-07 10:25:53

Just read in the Independent today that certain internet forums in the UK were being critical of the parents in this case for leaving a child asleep in a locked room whilst dining a few metres away. I hoped that it wasn't Mumsnet - but of course it is. Outrageous. Poor bloody parents. It's irrelevant atm. And for what it's worth I'd have done the same. You can't plan for every unlikely eventuality otherwise you'd never leave your child's side.

paulaplumpbottom Mon 07-May-07 10:27:51

It could be any of the sites

LIZS Mon 07-May-07 10:44:53

It could be , but if the cap fits ....

quietmouse Mon 07-May-07 10:50:44

fgs - do none of you ever leave your child's window open slightly at night? do you all stand over the bed all night?

Do none of you ever let your child play in the park/playground whilst you sit on a bench a few metres away?

Do none of you ever leave your child with a nanny/childminder who may let your child out of their sight?

I think you all need to get off your high horses and have some respect.

debbsyandsonn Mon 07-May-07 10:52:43

lets all pray for maddys return poor poor child,it leaves you sick to your stomach,and her family,her mother looks dreadful,i want to cry everytime i see her clutching that teddy.Please god keep little Maddy safe in your care,and let her be reunited with her parents very very soon,we pray that no harm will come to her,and also pray for her parents,that they have the strength from you,to carry on through these dark days with prayers of hope that this ends with a happy conclusion,Amen.

OrmIrian Mon 07-May-07 10:52:54

Yes, I'm sure there are others too.

debbsyandsonn Mon 07-May-07 10:55:12

Quietmouse although your feelings about this are very strong,it is not the right time or place to be talking about this we should be thinking of Maddy and her family and sending postive thoughts that she is found quickly.imho

Tamum Mon 07-May-07 10:55:55

I saw one on another parenting board, on a very well-known site, that was completely judgemental to a truly horrible degree, and made anything on here pale in comparison.

quietmouse Mon 07-May-07 10:56:23

I agree completely. I have just been very upset by some of the comments I have seen even this morning.

Sorry.

NuttyMuffins Mon 07-May-07 10:57:19

Erm quietmouse hasn't done anything wrong, she has been sayong that these discussions are innapropriate for ages.

mamazon Mon 07-May-07 10:58:51

I think that comments over the parenting style of the McCanns is best left until we hear that Maddie is safe and well.

i doubt there is a person alve that blames the McCanns more than the McCanns!

they really dont need teh judgments of strangers to dig their own black hole any deeper.

As i tried to explain on a different thread, yes it is unlikely that they will be looking on internet forums at themoment. but the trouble with the WWW is that thing dont just go away, they get archived and stored for months or years later.

they type in their daughters name and threads saying how terrible their parenting skills were or how they were irresponsible.

Until you have sat their worried sick about where your child is and knowing the awfull truth is that she is most likely with someone vile you have absolutly no right to pass judgements on others

debbsyandsonn Mon 07-May-07 10:59:56

no need to be sorry we are all upset,it is a terrible thing to have happened and as mothers we all tend to vent in different ways,as different personalities join one hugge thread tere vwas bound to be controversy.

glassslipper Mon 07-May-07 11:00:42

The way this thread is going it will reach 1000 posts soon and disappear anyway.

NurseyJo Mon 07-May-07 11:00:52

Quiet (or not so quiet) Mouse:

You have not said anything a lot of us haven't been thinking, a lot of which I have said on another thread- you have absolutely nothing to apologise for x

debbsyandsonn Mon 07-May-07 11:04:12

nm i didnt say that she had, i just think the right and wrong should be left now,and not keep rearing its very ugly head not wanting to cause offence.

LaBoheme Mon 07-May-07 11:04:45

Just wanted to add to the debate of the thread pulling - do you honestly think those poor parents would have the time or energy after what they have been through, to come onto the internet on a chat site and check threads relating to their horrific ordeal? I really think they will have other things on their mind. No one has said anything really offensive have they? -that I have seen- just questioning parenting choices. Let's be sensible about it, this is a forum of opinion, that's the point of MN.

MummyPenguin Mon 07-May-07 11:06:14

I didn't realise that there are posters here who were there at the time, but I guess it's not that surprising given how many thousands of parents use MN. Someone said that as far as they knew, the McCanns did have a baby monitor with them, why on earth was that not made known in the news? Perhaps then, people wouldn't be so quick to 'judge'? If they did have a monitor with them, how come they didn't hear any noise/disturbance when the room was broken into? I'm not speculating (neither was I in my first post on this thread - just giving an opinion.) Just trying to make sense of it all in my head.

Perhaps we should all stop posting on here, enough has been said already, and just watch news reports for any developments.

MummyPenguin Mon 07-May-07 11:07:41

I thougth that, LaBoheme. Coming on MN now or after this will be the last thing on their minds.

mamazon Mon 07-May-07 11:07:54

i have said it a thousand times already but i will repeat yet again.

no these people probably wont be looking...RIGHT NOW.

but in time to come when they are feling down they could very easily type their daughters name into a search engine and be faced with comments effectivly blaming them for her disapearance.

Having spoken to Sara Payne i KNOW this to be the case and i know how devestated she was by the comments made.

quietmouse Mon 07-May-07 11:13:15

thanks - I think my comment was meant to go on the other thread where lots of people were making vile assumptions.

Can everyone just try to leave their speculation off here? and lets all hope and pray for good news soon.

mummylin Mon 07-May-07 11:17:48

Whatever views that posters have about the situation, without exception they are all praying for this little girls safe return.So although peoples opinions differ so much they are all united in waiting to hear some good news.

MummyPenguin Mon 07-May-07 11:21:03

Exactly, mummylin. as I said earlier, I don't think anyone should be jumping on anyone, we're all going to have an individual opinion, but at the same time, we all want the same outcome - Maddie back safe.

Jacanne Mon 07-May-07 11:22:56

I haven't posted on this thread so far but I also have a 4 year old, blonde haired, blue eyed Madeleine and I haven't been able to stop touching her since I heard about this. I can't imagine what is going through her mother's head at the moment - just the thought of my child God knows where, with God knows whom...it makes me sick just thinking about it. When our children are hurt our instinct is to comfort them - how awful must it be not to be able to do that? I am sure that everyone on this thread feels like this and that even the more negative comments come from a gut reaction because we know at heart that ultimately there is nothing we can do to protect our children from everything and it is terrifying. I wish the family all the best and hope and pray that they get their Maddy back soon, safe and sound.

LaBoheme Mon 07-May-07 12:36:17

Last night I woke for my LOs night feed and couldn't get back to sleep for thinking about where Maddy was right at that moment and if she was safe and how she was feeling, this is truly awful, I just hope to God she is alive, whatever has happened to her I just hope she is still alive.

nappyaddict Mon 07-May-07 12:41:09

does anyone know if there have been any developments this morning? i hope to god they find her alive and well. i know people always assume the worst in cases like this, but does anyone remember that little girl who got taken from her home last year? cardiff i think it was. she was found alive, so let's all have hope and stop arguing over whether they were right or wrong.

someone who was has said afatk they had a baby monitor aswell. tbh honest i thought checking every half hour was adequate but if they had a monitor aswell i don't know what people are moaning about. its just one of those horrible horrible things that you never expect to happen to you.

i wondered why they didn't hear whoever it was breaking in, but maybe it stopped working and they didn't realise, or one of the children had messed with it and turned it off? who knows. its all speculation. if this person was a MNer who we all knew we would be rallying round and giving all our support. for all we know she is. we all know how supportive this community can be so lets show it ay?

It's the first thing I do in the morning - check the news in the hope that she has been found alive and well and the last thing I do at night is say a little prayer for her safe return.

kid Mon 07-May-07 12:47:36

I keep looking for updates and hoping to hear some good news soon. I read that clothes and fingerprints found in the bedroom are being analysed in Lisbon, I hope it gives them something to go on.

I keep thinking of the Abbie Humphries case, she was missing for 15 days before they found her. I know she was a newborn baby but it gives you hope that there may be a positive outcome with this case. I hope so anyway.

totaleclipse Mon 07-May-07 15:14:21

I wonder if the family have thought about calling in a psychic for help, I mean anythings worth a go.

Malaleche Mon 07-May-07 15:18:19

I thought about a physic too but didnt mention it for fear of being shot down. The MNer who did our tarot readings recently was very good too...

nappyaddict Mon 07-May-07 15:45:57

in this situation i'd try anything!!

i always remember when a 2 day old baby girl was snatched from our local hospital. she was taken from he cot which she shared with her twin. luckily the police had a tip off and she was found within 7 hours though.

BigPantsRule Mon 07-May-07 16:19:05

I agree. The police have been known to use the services of psychics, though I don't think they publicise the fact widely. I doubt this is the case in Portugal, though. I do hope that the police are following up on ALL leads, no matter what their source.

ScoobyDooooo Mon 07-May-07 16:19:23

God this is just so so sad, i can not stop thinking about Madeleine i just hope & pray she is still alive

It has been so long now, the more time goes on the less hope people have i think.

I always sit & think i hope she is ok, i dread to think what has happened to her, she muct be frightened, upset want her mummy & daddy, brother & sister, this really has tugged at my heart strings & i really am waiting for some good news, at the moment there seems to be no news it's all a bit quiet.

I hope they give her back i really, really do xx

blueshoes Mon 07-May-07 16:37:35

Another one here who cannot sleep at night for worrying about Madeleine ... for her to be safe with her family again.

Sparkler1 Mon 07-May-07 16:41:42

MummyPenguin Mon 07-May-07 18:00:13

Went into a beautiful church this afternoon with my DC. The children lit a candle and said a little prayer for Madeleine. There was a piece of paper there where you could write down what you want prayed for, and someone had already written pray for Madeleine and that whoever has her has a change of heart and returns her to her family. Please God. People everywhere are thinking about her.

quietmouse Mon 07-May-07 18:04:19

we went to church yesterday too (i'm not a church goer) and me and both the dc lit a candle too.

My ds,7, got down on his knees and prayed for her. He has never prayed before but this has hit us all really hard.



I feel desperate here, waiting for news, I really do.

stramash Mon 07-May-07 20:48:48

India Knight in the Sunday Times.

God knows I've no fan of India Knight but I thought this piece in the Sunday Times was spot on.

My heart goes out to this family it really does. I feel guilty for feeling upset ( I don't know them after all, I feel falsely close the situation because of the immediacy of the internet and news coverage)& yet I can't sleep, check on my sleeping dds several times a night & am hugging them a lot more than normal.DH has banned me from watching more than one news bulletin a day.

And FWIW, although I'm absolutely sure no-one involved in this will be surfing the net at the moment, comments posted on MN appear not infrequently in the press. I just can't understand people ( not on this thread but on others) who are criticising this family now. It's not the time & it's not appropriate anyway. There but for the grace of God and all that...It could have happened to any one of us.

A bit of compassion and restraint called for. This is not a hypothetical debate about a theoretical situation. These are real people going through agony.

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Re:First Reports

Date Posted:03/30/2012 1:30 AMCopy HTML

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Ok, in light of baysmum's posting. Can we have a show of hands for deletion of threads.

(195 Posts)
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homemama Sun 06-May-07 20:28:03

I can't believe I'm posting this as I don't actually agree with thread deletion other than in extreme circumstances. However, Baysmum has confirmed that Madeleine's mum is likely to be a Mnetter and if not then her close friends and family certainly are.

Whilst I would have no objection to them reading anything I have posted, I'm horrified to think that we (collectively) may cause the family any more distress either now or in the future.

Therefore, if most participants of the threads agree then perhaps MNHQ will agree also.
Thanks

quietmouse Sun 06-May-07 20:28:29

yes, please delete them.

homemama Sun 06-May-07 20:29:34

I am, of course, not including the 'prayers and best wishes' thread in this request.

ash6605 Sun 06-May-07 20:30:36

is this the girl that was abducted in portugal? i saw the thread the other day,did't comment but i wouldn't like to read that if it was my child,so yes delete the thread.

Piffle Sun 06-May-07 20:31:15

Absolutely judgement is not ours to make at this ghastly time
FGS
As mothers we should bloody know better

I can't bring myself to look at the threads because I can guess what they say.

yes, delete

kid Sun 06-May-07 20:31:32

I also think it should be deleted. I requested with MN for it to be deleted too. It would be so sad for her parents or family to read

mummy2olivia Sun 06-May-07 20:32:11

Definitely

WideWebWitch Sun 06-May-07 20:32:47

I agree, delete, vile, vile.

Astrophe Sun 06-May-07 20:33:12

delete them.

CuriousSquid Sun 06-May-07 20:33:22

i agree. If it was hapening to me i would like to be able to come back and see that i had been supported not blamed

Astrophe Sun 06-May-07 20:33:36

and don't lets start any more please?

WideWebWitch Sun 06-May-07 20:33:47

And I think it's entirely possible that the girl's mother is a mumsnetter.

edam Sun 06-May-07 20:34:34

agree delete

cylonbabe Sun 06-May-07 20:34:58

i havent read any of the threads properly.
but i think the reasons you are giving for the deletion of threads isnt a good one.
free speech and all that.

Zog Sun 06-May-07 20:35:19

delete

ElenyaTuesday Sun 06-May-07 20:36:32

delete right now, please!!!!

Astrophe Sun 06-May-07 20:37:17

everyone has had their freedom of speach, no need to imortalise the nastiness though. PLEASE delete them

foxybrown Sun 06-May-07 20:37:30

in this instance, yes, but not the prayers and thoughts threads - they may get a lot of reassurance from those.

littlemissbossy Sun 06-May-07 20:37:35

I agree with free speech but I agree to the deletion of these threads
I said days ago that Mrs McCann could be one of us... but the arguing just continued... people should be ashamed of themselves

homemama Sun 06-May-07 20:37:44

Well cb, if the worse has happened I'll be damned if I'll be part of a 'support' forum that would willingly allow a grieving mother to return to this.

lyrabelacqua Sun 06-May-07 20:38:39

I don't think it should be deleted. There were lot of positive messages on it and for every MNer who criticised the parents there were ten others telling them to shut up and this was not the time to starts apportioning blame. The parents might find it touching that so many people were so desperately upset about their daughter's disappearance.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Sun 06-May-07 20:39:08

so imagine as a mumsnetter, coming on to this site some months down the track, and finding not one single thread referring to what you'd gone through. what conclusion would you draw, that the threads had been deleted because they were all negative, or that no-one had deemed it worthy of posting about.

I don't think the threads should be deleted. partly because people are entitled to opinions, and although some, myself included, have questioned why the parents acted in the way they did, no-one has actually said they were to blame etc, and every single person on those threads, while not necessarily having the same opinions, has wished that little girl to be returned safe and well to her parents.

If I was a member of a site renouned for its support of others, and I came back to that site, following such a harrowing experience which had been portrayed so strongly in the media, and found that no-one had even discussed it, I would be inclined to not return again.

JodieG1 Sun 06-May-07 20:40:18

I wholly agree with wannabe.

foxinsocks Sun 06-May-07 20:40:33

no, I don't think they should be.

I don't agree with much on those threads and have said so on there. But you know, they are going to come across attitudes like that if they look for them. Won't only be on here.

There are plenty of people on mumsnet - I'd hope the majority - who feel deeply for them and don't and won't feel the need to cast any judgement on them as parents.

cylonbabe Sun 06-May-07 20:40:39

i think old threads should certainly be deleted. perhaps those that havent been posted on for a year or so? ( rather thant he current thirty thousand years mnhq have) but singling these threads out specifically to be deleted is wrong imo.

homemama Sun 06-May-07 20:40:52

I did say that the candle and prayer threads should remain so they would return to them.

LIZS Sun 06-May-07 20:41:08

yes, agree homemama. It would also be all too easy for the media to make capital of some things posted too , especially if new developments are slow in the next day or two.

thedogsbollox Sun 06-May-07 20:41:52

Delete!

Troutpout Sun 06-May-07 20:42:30

didn't add a comment on any ...but i read ...and yes delete

MrsSpoon Sun 06-May-07 20:42:54

I am not generally one to ask for threads or posts to be deleted but did contact MNHQ earlier to request that at least the most offensive posts are removed. IMO this family will have enough to deal with (whatever the outcome) without stumbling across some of the vile comments that have been posted on those threads.

JodieG1 Sun 06-May-07 20:44:26

Media can say what they want whether they read it here or not. Everyone wishes the best for them and their little girl even among the other comments.

expatinscotland Sun 06-May-07 20:44:37

Nope.

Don't delete.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 20:44:51

Do people really think of mumsnet purely as a place where support can be found?

NKF Sun 06-May-07 20:45:20

This IS the media, JodieG.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 20:45:35

Sorry, JodieGI.

expatinscotland Sun 06-May-07 20:46:02

Apparently it's going that way, NFK.

'Support' is as subjective as truth, beauty, and any of the other 31 flavours.

lyrabelacqua Sun 06-May-07 20:46:21

What i meant was they may be comforted by the fact that most MNers were reacting angrily to the nasty posts and saying 'don't blame the parents'. It might be nice for them to know that the vast majority were on their side and that a lot of people have taken exactly the same risk (or similar) that they did.
if certain posts are deleted they may just wonder what was in them and imagine they were worse than they actually were.

JodieG1 Sun 06-May-07 20:46:24

NKF - I meant the press. They will say what they like

homemama Sun 06-May-07 20:46:41

Well NKF, I do think that's its primary function, yes.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 20:47:18

Sides. Sides. On their sides? I don't know what you mean by sides. As if anyone has been against the parents.

expatinscotland Sun 06-May-07 20:47:20

If it's not written here it will be written elsewhere for all and sundry to read.

That's the world wide web.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 20:47:48

Its primary function surely is to make money for its owners.

expatinscotland Sun 06-May-07 20:47:56

Wow, this place really has changed in the years I've been here.

And unfortunately, I can't say it's for the better.

Astrophe Sun 06-May-07 20:48:15

NKF, just because MN makes a profit (and why not?) doesn't mean it can't be sensitive to people's feelings.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 20:48:51

I'm new here but I've seen other message boards and they do change as people come and go.

Astrophe Sun 06-May-07 20:49:34

and just because they might read it elsewhere, doesn't mean it should be here on MN too.

lyrabelacqua Sun 06-May-07 20:49:38

I've got a lot of journalist friends and i don't think any of them, when writing a story, is thinking 'how can i write this to make the most money for my boss'.

expatinscotland Sun 06-May-07 20:49:51

The problem is when you start to censor in the name of 'sensitivity'.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 20:49:57

Of course not and if it's too insensitive, people may well desert it. So it's a commercial as well as an ethical call. But I don't see a consensus on what is insensitive.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 20:50:18

Journalists don't think like that. Media owners do.

ravenAK Sun 06-May-07 20:50:19

I agree with lyrabelacqua - don't delete.

Better for the family/friends to see the vast, vast majority of posts are wholly supportive than to imagine what stupid things might've been said, if the threads are deleted.

homemama Sun 06-May-07 20:50:25

But they can see the overwhelming support they've had from the 'prayer and best wishes' thread.

I HATE censorship! I have never before sought it for anything even when I have vehemently disagreed with the POV. But why would any of us want those parents to see that.

expatinscotland Sun 06-May-07 20:50:50

My sister is a journalist. Whilst she doesn't see it in terms of money she can make for her boss, she does see it in terms of: if my sub-editor is continually displeased with what I write, I will soon be out of a job.

tortoiseSHELL Sun 06-May-07 20:51:44

I do think those thread should be deleted. They don't really serve any purpose anyway, there's not much information on them, just lots of arguing, some news updates and lots of sadness.

CaptainUnderpants Sun 06-May-07 20:52:21

I haven't read all the threads so dont know what postings have been offensive or upsetting . But if they are deleted and the child parents know that they had been delted they may wonder and think 'What exactly has been written about me ?' leading to more turmoil and anxiety.

Also if deleted it will never stop the hurt that they are feeling now and it will not make it any better.

If they dont read things on this site then they will read it on other websites , whether parenting sites or news sites .

I would imagine that alot of people have given support on the 'wanted deleted ' threads aswell.

The parents are intelligent enouh to know what a forum lik ethis can throw up, but knowing that something has been said about you and not being able to find out what is even wrong, whether supportive or offensive.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 20:52:22

To see what Homemama?
I can think of things I would hate to see on this site if I were the parents. But it may not be the same things another person dislikes.

fairyjay Sun 06-May-07 20:52:31

My vote's to delete.

lyrabelacqua Sun 06-May-07 20:53:02

I'm a sub-editor myself and I also don't look at stories in terms of making money for the boss. The money-makers have little to do with the day-to-day stories.

expatinscotland Sun 06-May-07 20:53:13

A lot of threads on here serve absolutely no purpose in the grand scheme of things.

And there have been many which greatly offended certain members.

Enough to make some of them leave.

But they were not pulled.

They are not libellous.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Sun 06-May-07 20:53:21

maybe we should delete the news section altogether then. and the breast/bottlefeeding section. and the weening section. and the food section. you know, just in case someone posts something that might offend someone who has been through a nasty experience and might feel upset if they read them .... oh wait we're running out of sections now!

if this family sell their story to the media, and chances are that they will, they will need to answer the question "so why did you feel it was appropriate to leave your children unsupervised while you went for dinner". because it will be asked.

if they don't read comments here they will read them somewhere else, and believe me there is far, far worse out there to be read.

lucy5 Sun 06-May-07 20:55:35

Wannabe, i always agree with you, although I don't often tell you . I think you are the voice of reason.

lyrabelacqua Sun 06-May-07 20:55:37

I can't see them selling their story if their child isn't found safe and well.

expatinscotland Sun 06-May-07 20:56:08

I agree, wannabe.

I truly do.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 20:56:31

To be clear, I understand that even posting on this subject can feel uncomfortable but I'm not in agreement that should lead to threads being deleted. But then it's not my decision. It will be interesting to see what happens.

fairyjay Sun 06-May-07 20:57:01

I think it's a bit of a presumption that they will sell their story. Unless of course, you know the McCanns!!

gothicmama Sun 06-May-07 20:57:13

I think they should be left if it was me then I would want to know what mn consensus was adn be uplifted by the support shown and also recognise that people's speculation is natural I also think the majority of negative posts have been addressed positively elsewhere,

NKF Sun 06-May-07 20:58:07

They might tell or sell their story. Whatever they did doesn't, to my mind, change anything regarding posts on mumsnet.

CaptainUnderpants Sun 06-May-07 20:58:44

Any comment from MN towers in relation to 'deletion '?

franch Sun 06-May-07 20:58:52

On balance I would be against deleting.

homemama Sun 06-May-07 20:59:45

Well to me, pissing someone off because you disagree with a particular parenting style of theirs is not in the same league as causing unnecessary distress to what could end up being a grieving mother.

But I didn't start this thread to argue.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 20:59:53

Presumably someone has asked for deletion and received a reply.

fairyjay Sun 06-May-07 21:01:26

I agree homemama - and baysmum did say that the family had an mn connection.

I decided that it was a bit much to expect people to count my vote when I admitted to not reading the thread.

I just have and didn't read anything quite as bad as I expected but still think it should be deleted.

lyrabelacqua Sun 06-May-07 21:02:48

Will any of them even be reading MN though with all this going on? Even after it's all over will they start trawling old Mn threads?

Greensleeves Sun 06-May-07 21:03:35

I'm with baysmum on this one, while I am usually against whole-thread deletion I think some circumstances are exceptional, and this is one of them. If I were the mother/aunt/family friend of that little girl, and a MNer, I would expect them to respect my needs and delete everything relating to it. There are in fact MNers who are up against potential huge tragedy - MNers with very sick children, very sick spouses etc - if they requested deletions on the grounds that some threads were just too painful, would you refuse them? What baysmum is suggesting is just a pre-emptive exercise of the same courtesy. And it costs us nothing - there are plenty of other salacious topics to discuss, emote over and sharpen our intellectual claws on .

makkapakka Sun 06-May-07 21:05:09

As if anything is going to upset them after what they are going through. Reading MN will be the last things on their minds.

AitchTwoOh Sun 06-May-07 21:09:31

i've only read two threads, the original one and the developments one. on the original i mostly saw people saying 'i wouldn't have left MY kids but hope this little one is safe and will be home soon etc'. anyone who ventured to suggest that the parents were negligent were jumped all over by ten people.

on the developments one there has been much debate about what's offensive. some people are comforted by things that others find utterly puerile and offensive, and vice versa.

personally there's nothing i've seen (apart from one post, now that i come to think of it) that demands deletion. were there other threads, too?

if not, then no deletion. and if MNHQ are proposing counting up these 'votes' can i suggest excluding the ones from people who've stated that they haven't even read them?

penmack Sun 06-May-07 21:10:07

i agree with wannabe. dont delete on principle. i also think that the views of the people on mn are really going to be the last of this families worries, whether they or their familys are mn users or not.

AitchTwoOh Sun 06-May-07 21:10:41

pmsl. x-posted with senorapostrophe.

MummyPenguin Sun 06-May-07 21:12:04

That's what I thought, lyrabelacqua.

baffledbb Sun 06-May-07 21:12:06

If the threads you are referring to are deleted what will probably happen is that oblique references will be made to them in other threads and posters who never saw the original threads will ask what was said whereupon someone will try to give a synopsis, someone then comes on to say they were misinterpreted and so on and so forth it starts again.
Sadly from what some of the relations of the family have said on the TV they (at least the relations if not Mr and Mrs McCann themselves) already know that these sorts of things are being said (not necessarily from MN) so deletion may not really serve the desired purpose anyway.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 21:15:12

What would be the desired purpose? That they see nothing on Mumsnet that could hurt them? We, as individuals, can't control mumsnet. It doesn't belong to the posters. We can, as individuals, refuse to post or read any more.

Or you can join the discussion and strive to be fair and honest and reasonable.

If the posts were all of the "any news, I do feel sick" variety?" would there be a call for deletion. I find those posts the most distasteful by the way.

NotanOtter Sun 06-May-07 21:16:26

i agree baffled

littlelapin Sun 06-May-07 21:17:46

I have only skimmed the threads and haven't posted on them, so I'm not sure if I am allowed a vote...

All I would say is that, as has been mentioned, dreadful things are being said on other websites and forums. On MN, I don't think any real viciousness has happened, but there has been a VAST amount of responses in support and defence of the family.

I think that the family would prefer to see the MN thread than some of the vitriol posted on other websites - at least here we have a balance.

AitchTwoOh Sun 06-May-07 21:17:56

exactly, baffled. and if the wee girl isn't found does anyoen think that they won't regret letting them sleep on their own for every minute of every day of their lives. and if every one of us had said 'we would deffo ahve done the same' it would make bugger all difference. (not that i was a part fo that discussion, i hasten to add).

i'm amazed at teh influence everyone seems to think MN has. if mrs McCann is an MNer she'll know exactly what would be discussed anyway...

toomuchtodo Sun 06-May-07 21:18:59

TBH I think eventually we will see a lot of differing reactions to this in the media and what has been posted on MN will be a small amount of comments.

therefore, I wouldn't delete

NKF Sun 06-May-07 21:19:05

Okay - cat among the pigeons here. If we knew for sure that the parents would hate any mention of what is happening to them on Mumsnet, would that mean that deletion was the right thing to do?

mum2sons Sun 06-May-07 21:20:11

I say delete out of respect.
I felt very upset that people chose this time to jugde Madeleine`s devestated parents.
My heart goes out to them

lyrabelacqua Sun 06-May-07 21:20:20

NFK, why distasteful?

AitchTwoOh Sun 06-May-07 21:21:28

ah well in that case i wouldn't be arsed to stand on principle, nkf. delete away.

belgianbun Sun 06-May-07 21:21:35

I am not usually one for censorship and agree with wannabe to a degree but I think that some of the posts about nannies etc are just rubbing salt into the wound. Yes, if they are mners they would expect it to be discussed but they would not expect to be personally attacked the way they have been by half a dozen or so very damaging posts. If Madeleine's family are MNers then they may well seek support here in their difficulties (someone from MNHQ was interviewed on Radio 5 Live the other day) and don't need further pain. This is pure speculation and tbh I feel uncomfortable speculating in these circumstances.

I would say delete, at least the most offensive posts, definitely. Please?

AitchTwoOh Sun 06-May-07 21:22:14

right. i'm asking. WHERE was the judging? were there more threads?

AitchTwoOh Sun 06-May-07 21:22:48

delete posts, deffo, belgian, but entire threads?

NotanOtter Sun 06-May-07 21:23:17

i dont think either of them will give a flying fig what mumsnetters say or dont say.

much bigger fish to fry . Really this is sooo irrelevant

lyrabelacqua Sun 06-May-07 21:24:36

I think some of the posts were very insensitive but none were so bad that they should be deleted imo.

ceolas Sun 06-May-07 21:24:55

Agree, NAO. Whatever the outcome, they won't be scouring internet forums for a mere mention.

glassslipper Sun 06-May-07 21:25:31

Free speech has been cited as an issue since the internet came into public use. Censorship of the internet as a whole is impossible. That is the best and the worst thing about the WWW.

The threads under discussion ask some very hard questions. Some people did not eloquently voice their concerns but they were not being malicious. There were a handful of nasty comments on the thread and they were all picked up and criticised by other posters.

None of the posters appear to want anything other than a happy ending.

NKF - No the threads should not be deleted. But perhaps some apologies would be due.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 21:25:52

Why distasteful. I've been trying to work out why. Someone used the word "ghoulish" and it often strikes me like that. For me, there's always something rather unpleasanr about the soap opera style updates of a rolling news story. Until there is a real development there is this gruesome speculation about what horrors might have happened.

And the empahsis on the poseter's feelings makes me uncomfortable. It always seems to be described as "compassion" or "empathy" and I don't think it is really.

I'm reading mumsnet too and posting so I don't pretend to be above it. But I don't believe it all stems from good wholesome feelings.

lucy5 Sun 06-May-07 21:26:15

I don't think the threads have been too bad. In all honesty, how many of us initially thought, What was the child doing alone? We may not have all voiced it. This poor family will have far more things on their mind, regardless of the outcome. I don't think the threads should be deleted, it would set a precedent [sp] and who knows what that would lead to. I hope the little girl is returned safe and well.

CaptainUnderpants Sun 06-May-07 21:26:23

Some journalist will quote Mns from last August when SWCNBN was up in arms about what was being posted and all the threads that were deleted or we were asked not to dicuss and MNs were talking about 'freedom of speech etc etc.

Now if Mn deletes this threads aboout the unfotunate events in Portugal some journalists/ solictors may have a field day with MN .

They could end up discussing about top parengting website deleting threads about this situation bringin even more attention to a bad situation and making pople think 'what was written ' and as someone has said it will all start again and pople mis quoting etc etc

scatterbrain Sun 06-May-07 21:27:12

I don't think I agree with deleting them - although I am not 100% sure.

I also don't really feel people were actually judging - I think they were running through scenarios about would they or wouldn't they have done the same - but it was all speculation I think. We still (I don't think) really know how far away the parents were from the apartment.

Distateful as some posters have said they found it - I think this has shocked many mothers (and fathers) to the very core. Definitely a case of "there for the grace of God go I" - and yes I think many people did and do feel sick about it.

Everyone deals with stuff differently and it would be nice if we could all respect different opinions and styles.

Greensleeves Sun 06-May-07 21:27:15

How much does it cost us/you/MN to delete a thread, ffs? How important can it be, to you? If there is the very slightest chance that it could reduce the unimaginable pain these people are in, how can one justify not deleting it out of respect?

I am fervently in favour of free speech and personally I think MN has proved itself (ie Justine et al) to be firmly in possession of the requisite bollocks to push this issue to its conclusion, for the benefit of everyone who believes that censorship on the internet is outdated, anachronistic and wrong.

But that only works if we can assume that common sense and basic human compassion can be assumed and don't need to be legislated for. IMO.

homemama Sun 06-May-07 21:27:47

NFK, can I respectfully ask that you start that debate on another thread. I really don't want to be responsible for starting another thread where theoretical debate accounts for 300posts.

(BTW, I'm all for debate, theoretical or otherwise. I just passionately believe that now is not the time.)

Marina Sun 06-May-07 21:28:15

I agree the McCann family probably won't read now or in the future, but I can't help feeling sad that people who do know them, as Baysmum said, might have seen some of the more questionable posts
I think leaving the threads as they are, though, will reassure anyone connected to the case and reading, that overwhelmingly people on MN are thinking of the McCann family in a supportive and concerned way. Once a post is deleted there is no way of telling why/what was said and the impression that gives might be worse.
So, no to delete from me

NKF Sun 06-May-07 21:28:18

Aitch - well how about MN assumes that they would mind and deletes?

Marina Sun 06-May-07 21:29:23

Doh! No to delete some posts only. Whole threads or nothing IMO
Message deleted looks so sinister

I don't think individual post should be deleted. The whole thread should go if its questionable. I think thats fair

AitchTwoOh Sun 06-May-07 21:30:31

well that's mnhq's prerogative, of course, nkf. i'd get over it very quickly. but a 'vote' is bogus, imo.

ScottishMummy Sun 06-May-07 21:30:34

imo, delete thread

NKF Sun 06-May-07 21:30:40

Greensleeves - one could always not post though. But people want to. What is happening I think is that some people think there should only be certain types of posts.

AitchTwoOh Sun 06-May-07 21:32:30

you lot are nuts. an mner comes back and finds no mention of the biggest news story of the year? apart from a (noticeably quite short, btw) prayers and thoughts thread? and that wouldn't be utterly sinister?

homemama Sun 06-May-07 21:33:03

I agree, Greeny.
Why keep a thread that is of no use to anyone and which may actually cause an entire family distress?
If that child's mother comes on here looking for support and comes across all this then we should be ashamed of ourselves.

expatinscotland Sun 06-May-07 21:33:23

Sinister?

Nah, you must be talking about elections in Scotland if you're using that term.

foxinsocks Sun 06-May-07 21:33:34

I agree marina - far better to see that those who were judgemental were outweighed by those of us who weren't at all on those threads (and lots of us who found those points of view distasteful).

Of course they are going to know some people will think this way anyway - it's been hinted at and there are some murmurings of it in the press today. If they could be bothered to look on here, I doubt the thread would come as a surprise to them at all tbh.

However, I do wish some people would think before they bloody well post, I really do.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 21:33:38

Homemama, I don't think there's any need to feel responsible for the way a thread develops.

batters Sun 06-May-07 21:34:51

Haven't read the threads. But as posters such as Marina and www have said the threads should be deleted I am guessing that there are some pretty awful things on there.

AitchTwoOh Sun 06-May-07 21:35:52

who is this 'we'? we're not all the same, we don't all have the same opinions. there wouldn't be an MN if we did. i really don't understand this hive thinking.

saintmaybe Sun 06-May-07 21:35:55

Please let's delete it.

Londonmamma Sun 06-May-07 21:36:40

In this case I feel strongly that sparing the feelings of Madeleine's family should take precedence over our MN 'right to free speech', so I would say delete.

lyrabelacqua Sun 06-May-07 21:36:59

Batters, that's just it. You're imagining there were some pretty awful things on there, but it wasn't that bad at all. if it's deleted, the McCanns or their friends/family will imagine it must have been horrific to have had to have been deleted.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 21:37:47

Batters - it depends on what you mean by "awful".

AitchTwoOh Sun 06-May-07 21:38:14

batters, my god, read the threads and make your own mind up. MNHQ routinely deletes any posts that are held to be offensive, that's fine. what you're talking about is deleting positive and negative comments. do you really think that the overall thrust was against the parents of a child who has been abducted?

batters Sun 06-May-07 21:39:15

That's true, lyra.

But I do trust www and Marina .

But I see your point .

glassslipper Sun 06-May-07 21:39:21

I think people should read the threads before 'voting' that they should be deleted

homemama Sun 06-May-07 21:40:53

Ok, Aitch, it would make ME feel ashamed to think I'd taken part in something which could cause obvious distress to a potentialy grieving mother. (though I'm still praying she will just be a mother who went through hell for a few days)

AitchTwoOh Sun 06-May-07 21:41:07

lol, yes. let's re-hold this completely bogus vote and get everyone to say whether they've actually read the threads in question. there were only two, weren't there?

i have. i vote no.

batters Sun 06-May-07 21:41:13

Aitchtwooh and glassslipper actually and pedantically (sp?) I haven't said whether or not the threads should be deleted.....

I said I reckoned there must be some awful posts on them.

scatterbrain Sun 06-May-07 21:41:57

i have too - and I vote no

batters Sun 06-May-07 21:42:05

aitchtwooh - read my last post!!

expatinscotland Sun 06-May-07 21:42:52

I have as well.

I vote no.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 21:42:53

I'd say that by posting, we've already taken part in something that might cause pain. We can try to write as sensitively as possibly but it's presumptuous to think that our posts are the one shining examples of good feeling and empathy and every one else is rubbing salt into wounds.

AitchTwoOh Sun 06-May-07 21:43:54

it woudl make me ashamed, homemama, if i thought i'd done anything to be ashamed of.
i can't take respionsibility for anyone else, and nor can you.
and better to 'take part' imo and stand up for what you feel is the sensitive and right thing with regards to this tragic situation, rather than stand back and watch as people behave like (imo) ghouls.

scatterbrain Sun 06-May-07 21:44:49

Oh for Gods sake - does anyone really believe that the musings of a bunch of unknown people on the internet is really going to cause the Mccanns any nmore pain than they already have !

Somehow I think they have bigger fish to fry !

AitchTwoOh Sun 06-May-07 21:45:15

batters, i wasn't aiming it at you at all. i reckon loads of people havne't read them.

lyrabelacqua Sun 06-May-07 21:45:51

Completely leaving aside the whole freedom of speech thing, i honestly believe that it could cause the family/friends more pain to see the thread was deleted because it was so 'shocking' than to read what people actually posted because the vast majority were supportive.
So I vote no too.

lucy5 Sun 06-May-07 21:46:23

I have read them and say no to deletion.

littlelapin Sun 06-May-07 21:46:25

Given that MN is actually NOT a democracy, and is in fact a benign dictatorship, why don't all those who wish the thread to be deleted report it to MNHQ with their reasons, and they will make the final decision, as they always do and as is their right.

This thread is really just another excuse to have a row, in my opinion (homemama, I'm not suggesting that was your original intent).

glassslipper Sun 06-May-07 21:46:32

Fair enough batters. But I interpreted your comment as support for deletion.

And that is one of the big issues of an internet forum really - interpretation. The written word can be taken many different ways and is often interpreted by an individual with a bias toward their own feelings, knowledge & experiences.

CaptainUnderpants Sun 06-May-07 21:47:34

It is truely an awful situation that is going on abroad at the moment but if we delete to spare the parents feelings where do we draw the line ?

Who knows who is and isn't a MN ?

Any story that breaks in the news may involve a member of our families and things will get said rightly or wrongly if discussed on a public forum.

If it is deleted then I feel that it sets a precident .

I have read the threads now ( as best I could ) and although some postings may have been thoughtless I have seen alot worse on MN.

I vote ' NO' although I do see little point in a vote as obvioculy not all members of MN will see this and it is up to MN towers to make the desciosn and they are intelligent enough to come to a descision without our input.

mrsharrypotter Sun 06-May-07 21:49:40

Delete it. Please.

homemama Sun 06-May-07 21:53:36

I'm actually sat here crying. Not for the child because firstly because we don't know that anything has happened to her yet and secondly because she is not my child to grieve for.

I'm crying because DH has just logged onto a business forum that he uses for work and the comments on their chat board have made me despair of human compassion.

So I hold my hands up here and say that the comments on here have been mild by comparison to the vile posts elsewhere.

I still don't see however, why she should have to face them in the name of free speech.

dolally Sun 06-May-07 21:56:58

delete please.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 22:01:55

What happens when threads get deleted? Are there lots of posts alluding to the deleted thread and then more deletions. Or does everyone who wants to talk about it just find another site?

AitchTwoOh Sun 06-May-07 22:01:58

you're all forgetting to say whether you've actually read the threads...

homemama, if what you say is true then it would feel really sinister if Mrs McCann came 'home' to MN and the threads were deleted.

of course, i'm buying into the thinking that she'd give a fuck either way, i suppose...

personally i think she'll have more on her mind if the wee girl doesn't come home and if she does she'll not care.

anyway, LL's right, it's not a democracy. report what you need to report, provide your reasons (better if you've read them, imho) and let MNHQ do what they think is right.

CaptainUnderpants Sun 06-May-07 22:03:04

Interestingly enough I just had a look at another forum ( not parenting site ) where they were discussing the abduction and their were afew comments that no doubt the parents would have found upsetting . The moderator of the forum pulled the thread and ask pople to stop posting in respect for the girls parents.

It didn't appear that anything was deleted but they just asked for some respect for parents and not to post anymore.

FrannyandZooey Sun 06-May-07 22:03:36

I vote no.

NuttyMuffins Sun 06-May-07 22:04:40

Yes

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Sun 06-May-07 22:05:46

You know what I find this notion that one thread on one website will worsen a family’s pain and suffering strange and a bit arrogant tbh. Yes lots of people rely on mn for support, but mumsnet really does not wield the kind of influence that some on here seem to think it does. To most, mn is a website, nothing more. And to people who don’t post here, the idea of getting your support from a bunch of strangers on the internet is, quite frankly, incomprehensible.

And do you not think this family have better things to do than to trawl through the 1100 or so posts to find the 10 or so that might upset them? get real.

mamazon Sun 06-May-07 22:06:39

I seriously doubt that any parent spending most of her energy wrroeid sick about where her chidl is and what is happening to her would think to come onot Mn for a quick chat.

I also agree with some of the things said in the other thread.

BUT i also know how deeply it hurt Sara Payne when she read letters written to newspapers and things that had been placed on internet forums like this, months after Sarah's body was found.

I don't think the threads should be deleted but i do feel people should not post judgments or opinions on the parenting styles of two people who are desperatly worried for their daughter.

glassslipper Sun 06-May-07 22:07:03

wannabe - havent 'met' you before but agree with everything youve said thusfar.

Tamum Sun 06-May-07 22:07:04

No. For the same reasons as wannabe just said.

scatterbrain Sun 06-May-07 22:07:06

That's what I said a few minutes ago ! Everyone ignored me ! Too busy having their own important little say !

JodieG1 Sun 06-May-07 22:07:09

I've just read a thread on a non parenting forum and their remarks were much worse. They said what some here did but they'll be no deleting or pulling threads there.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 22:08:01

I know, Wannabe. It baffles me too. Also, the statements that someone is a "mumsnetter." Like it was part of their identity.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Sun 06-May-07 22:08:52

nkf if the thread is deleted, there will be a thread in a couple of days time saying "what happened to the madeleine mccann thread? upon which someone will explain that it was deleted, someone will ask why, someone else will say that it was because it was distasteful, someone else who posted on it and feels they were harshly judged will come on and defend their corner, and it will all kick off again, and in time it will be deleted. and then in a couple of days time a thread will appear asking "...." ...

NKF Sun 06-May-07 22:10:07

Wannabe. It could all get a bit 1984. We can't discuss the missing officials because according to the records, they don't exist any more.

lyrabelacqua Sun 06-May-07 22:11:11

WWW, and each time it gets rehashed it will just be the negative stuff without any of the positive.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Sun 06-May-07 22:11:35

and what happens if these threads are deleted and she's found? will we not be allowed to discuss it?

NKF Sun 06-May-07 22:12:23

They never existed. The thread never existed. All reference to the thread are examples of wrong-think.

I'm off to have a bath. I expect on my return to see all references to working mothers has been deleted on the grounds that some posts were judgemental.

NuttyMuffins Sun 06-May-07 22:12:51

Sorry but anyone who votes NO, is only thinking of themselves and NOT the family IMO.

Would you seriously want the family to read some of the comments on here ?? That is just heartless.

lucy5 Sun 06-May-07 22:13:22

Wannabe, I will say it again, you are spot on!

Baysmum Sun 06-May-07 22:14:23

I have posted on the other thread so will paraphrase. I did not ask for the thread to be deleted and Im not honestly sure if I feel it should be or not. Discussion and debate are helpful and healthy BUT comments which are critical and based on so called 'facts' about this case and the McCanns parenting skills when we do not know the realities of this situation are speculative, often immflammatory and generally unhelpful.. I was asking people to keep it to personal experience. Im not suggesting that Kate McCann is on Mumsnet now but I will repeat the fact that close friends of the family who are involved in the awful situation in Portugal ARE regular Mumsnetters who come here for support, advice and chat.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Sun 06-May-07 22:15:12

and references to fruit shoots. and bottlefeeding, in fact all types of formula, and weening, and smacking, and time out, in fact discipline in general, in fact I think it would be useful if the little disclaimer at the bottom of threads was changed to:

"in view of the fact we have many posters who are sensitive and so as not to cause upset, we would appreciate it if you answered all threads with yes or no only. any posts containing anything other than these words must be reported and will be deleted immediately"

CaptainUnderpants Sun 06-May-07 22:15:40

If the parenst are Mns they will always wonder what was written/said about them.

If they are not Mn then they have all the other forums/chat rooms to look at ( if they wish ,although I doubtit ) and see exactly the same thing if not worse.

better to see what hs been said about you than to imagine it.

mamazon Sun 06-May-07 22:16:05

your right. there are many many more forums tat all say what has been posted here and much worse.

the difference here is that this is meant to be a parenting forum, a place where adults who share the role of being a parent come for support.
being vilified by strangers is bad enough but to be vilified by people who should know how you feel, is surely mortifying.

And YES actually reading things on a webiste can be very very very damaging to someone who has been through so much already. no doubt they already blame themsleves for her disapearance and are feeling more guilty than you or I could possibly imagine, they really dont need to switch on their pc, punch in their daughters name in hope of finding news and end up seeing that the world finds them guilty as well.

The park opposite my 9old house was the Sarah Payne memorial park. whilst in there one day Sara and her two youngest children were there and i spoke with her for quite a while. she said how soul destroying it was to open newspapers, watch chat shows and read internet forums like this and find people blaming her for not being with Sarah, for not taking better care....even hinting at the fact she or her husband may have had something to do with it.

So yes actually, something written on a little site like this can affect these people

VeniVidiVickiQV Sun 06-May-07 22:16:46

If anyone thinks the family are going to want to trawl the net for comments made on internet chat forums then I think that is pretty naive.

I would say no, on the basis that I dont agree with thread deletions generally, because comments will still be made elsewhere, other threads can be taken out of context, and new threads are ALWAYS started after a thread deletion so it solves little anyway, and in fact often creates more confusion, speculation and summarising of comments that were deleted in the first place.

CaptainUnderpants Sun 06-May-07 22:18:51

It would be useful to have a comment from MN otherwise we will go round in circles .

AitchTwoOh Sun 06-May-07 22:20:27

so delete the posts, mamazon. there is a framework for dealing with vile posts, and MNHQ can take as much latitude as they like on their interpretation of what's vile. but not the threads, imo, as they are very supportive in the main.

lucy5 Sun 06-May-07 22:20:35

I agree with you Captain.

quietmouse Sun 06-May-07 22:20:57

how can people want these threads kept? all they are doing is adding to someone's misery and pain.

Of course the parents aren't reading them atm, and yes, they can read other stuff elsewhere, but why add to that?

If we can take just these threads away then at least it's a little bit less to have to read one day.

How soul destroying to see it written there in black and white how other parents hold you responsible for a tragedy like this. The only people responsible are the ones that took a little girl from her bed.

How can some people here be so heartless? I don't understand it

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Sun 06-May-07 22:21:15

if those threads are deleted it will set a huge precedent. because anyone who has been through a bad experience can claim that a thread is offensive to them and we will get to the point where no one is allowed to say anything that can be perceived as being negative against anyone.

I feel very sorry for the Mccans and I wouldn't wish what they are going through on anyone. But we live in a 24 hour society now, and part of that means that as well as being able to get up to the minute updates on what is happening, we are also able to have up to the minute discussions about it, on public message boards like this one, with people we wouldn't necessarily discuss these things with otherwise.

mamazon Sun 06-May-07 22:21:32

i havent said to delete the threads. but ot request people to discuss the case, not their opinions of the parenting involved.

mamazon Sun 06-May-07 22:23:24

and as for the comments of "its being said elsewhere"

is it not slightly childish. it reminds me of children saying "but he's doing it so why can't I"?

lucyellensmum Sun 06-May-07 22:23:49

I agree with VVV, does anyone think that this family are going to be looking at these threads. I'm not belittling MN and the tremendous support it offers and its value as a forum for parents but i daresay they have more important things on thier mind. Also, these are intelligent people, they are going to rise above any small minded villifications by people who should know better.

fryalot Sun 06-May-07 22:23:56

haven't read every post, so I may be repeating what others have said but:

I think that there are enough voices shouting for any debate to be saved for another day, and that we should all concentrate on hoping and praying for Madelaine's safe return, and these voices cancel out the few who insist on turning this tragic matter into their own personal soap-box.

AitchTwoOh Sun 06-May-07 22:25:19

oh god yes, mamazon, totally agree. and same to baysmum.
but in truth i've not seen any discussion as to their parenting. apart from, i think, some bonkers stuff about nannies which is easily deleted.

marthamoo Sun 06-May-07 22:25:20

I don't know.

I have read the threads and some of the things said on there shocked me - but I honestly don't know if Madeline McCann's parents (even if they were ever to read the threads, which I doubt) could be any more hurt and devastated than they are already. If some of us are saying "how could they have left her?" - those poor people, their every thought since this happened must have been why did we leave her/why did we go to that restaurant/why didn't we check more often/ why did we even go on this holiday in the first place. I can barely imagine what sort of hell they are in right now.

And ultimately - they are not to blame. The only person who is to blame in this is the person that took their little girl.

So I don't know whether to delete the threads or not. I don't think deleting them will make life any easier for them, or for anyone who knows them - on the other hand, some of the comments on those threads I find shocking in their heartlessness. And it saddens me that some of you have read harsher posts and comments elsewhere - have people no compassion?

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Sun 06-May-07 22:25:20

ok, so if you delete these threads and the parents go trawling the net for comments, which frankly I think is very naive to think but there we are... but if they do, then they'll find the worse comments instead of the mn threads that contain a lot of positive things. so by deleting the threads you could actually be adding to their pain because instead of positive comments on mn, they would find the negative ones somewhere else instead.

suzycreamcheese Sun 06-May-07 22:26:41

dont delete
dont beleive in censorship at all

have read threads (most of)..

...it would be too weird for nothing to be on here, and in the midst of it all everyone is shocked, horrified, hoping and there are some praying too for good outcome...

NKF Sun 06-May-07 22:27:48

Mamazon, what does discussing the caes mean? Do you mean news update type posts would be okay? All those "it says here in some newspaper etc..." and "I read that..." And "apparently the police have said..."

Frankly I think those sort of posts are the least worthwhile. They're speculation and often speculation packed with gruesome suggestions of what might have happened.

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Sun 06-May-07 22:28:27

mamazon I think the references to them being able to read elsewhere are more to do with the belief that we can't protect these parents from any pain by deleting one thread.

NKF Sun 06-May-07 22:29:32

I don't have a problem with mn deleting the thread. I don't own the website and it's not my say. What I query is this notion that the threads have been nasty.

mamazon Sun 06-May-07 22:33:10

wannabe - Naive or not that was the coment amde to me by a mother WHO WAS IN THIS SITUATION!

i have never had a child abducted nor have i had to deal with the grief of being told she had been murdered (which i pray the Mccanns never have to)

So when i am told by someone who has been through that hell and she says that it was something she did some weeks later when she had nothing but her own thoughts....the police had gone, the media had left and it was just her alone in the evenings she did tyoe her daughters name into the search engine and read what came up.

and in her own words " it hurt like being told she was dead all over again"

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Sun 06-May-07 22:33:18

ultimately hq have the final decision. but i do wonder, if any of them go on tv/radio in the next few days as they have done already, and the reporter asks "so what have members on your site been saying then" how comfortable they will feel saying "well there was a discussion but it had to be deleted".

NKF Sun 06-May-07 22:35:26

They'd probably say "we deleted it out of respect for the family".

I'm interested to see which way MN will go.

fryalot Sun 06-May-07 22:36:05

and the implication there being that everyone was saying nasty things.....

wannaBeWhateverIWannaBe Sun 06-May-07 22:37:46

exactly, "deleted out of respect" would imply it was all negative and judgemental.

AnnoyingNamechanger Sun 06-May-07 22:45:54

My heart is breaking for that family.

I cant stop thinking about it. I feel very pessimistic about it, but I am hoping, against hope that Maddy is alive and is returned to her parents unharmed and happy.

I still dont think the threads should be deleted.

homemama Sun 06-May-07 22:54:41

Ok, if we don't agree to delete, can we at least agree that with no new information we have debated all that is decent to debate at the moment?
Can we go to bed, kiss our kids and hope the morning brings good news.

God bless you, Madeleine, wherever you are! x

tigermoth Wed 09-May-07 08:14:39

Late vote on this. I have some of the other threads and was very disappointed in how they turned out.

Jurnalists who may be writing on this sad topic may be actively contributing to those threads, partly to stir things up and encourage discussion. It seems very distasteful to me. I think some people have done this, journalist or not.

I do agree with the principle of free speech here so I know it's difficult to feel 'right' about any decision, but I come down on the side of deleting whole threads.

Other possibilities could be:

Move all discussion of Madeline to the chat topic so threads naturally get deleted after 90 days.

Temporarily and as of now, delete Madeline news threads till the press coverage really dies down.

2mum Wed 09-May-07 10:43:51

I havent read these threads but i do feel terrible for Maddies family for what they are going through. I have my own opinion on this and as this is an open forum i dont see why things should be deleted.

donnie Wed 09-May-07 13:59:58

delete them.

TwoIfBySea Wed 09-May-07 17:11:19

You can't delete it, as has already been stated, and in much better terms than I could come up with at the moment, it would be extremely sinister and odd that a parenting website had deleted threads on this subject.

It was always going to be emotive, this is what we all fear deep down.

I was one who questioned leaving such young children but in no way would I say the parents were negligent or uncaring about their dd, and I bet my last £ (really) that not one single poster would do so. They let their guard down and there but for the grace of God go every last one of us. Unless there is some thread being nasty about the parents, even then at what price deletion?

If Madeleine's mum is a MNer would she not find it more upsetting to see there had been a deleted thread and then wonder what horrible things had been written on it? I do find it curious that people are deliberately going on threads (not just this one) and then saying how upsetting it was, if the site is to be wrapped in cotton wool and all subject to go through this imposed monitor (and not self imposed as you are imposing your wishes on the rest of us) then what is the point to it at all.

LaBoheme Thu 10-May-07 08:38:50

No one has written anything really horrid - the threads should not be deleted, Madeliene's mother will not be looking on them any time soon even if she is a "mumsnetter" ffs, the poor woman will have other

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