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TinLizzy
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  • Register:11/07/2008 1:17 AM

Date Posted:09/11/2011 5:30 PMCopy HTML


beachy posted Sept 11 2011

If I recall correctly, that story was recounted by Mr Amaral and did not relate directly to the DNA evidence alone but rather to the totality of circumstances. I do not believe the British copper was ever named, but the clear implication was that it was Stuart Prior. I know I read this somewhere. It may be in Mr Amaral's book. I am very busy today, but if I can find the time in the next day or two I'll re-read the book and see if it's there or was in some subsequent interview.

When DNA evidence first was admitted in court in the UK, a 6:6 match between known and questioned DNA markers was considered conclusive. That was changed a few years later when a poor soul was actually arrested on the basis of a 6:6 match for a crime he could not possibly have committed; he suffered from Parkinson's disease and could not possibly have performed physical feats that the crime would have required, plus he was sole caretaker of one of his disabled children and was more than 200 miles from the crime scene at the time the crime occurred. This individual was released and the charges were dismissed.

In 1998, after this debacle occurred, the UK began using 10 markers, plus sex typing, for a total of 11.

The CODIS database maintained by the FBI in the U.S. stores 13 markers for each individual.

I have looked everywhere I can think of on the internet, and I have not been able to find any law, court ruling, or database that specifies how many matches are required on DNA markers in Portugal to be considered definitive. It is possible that there is no hard and fast rule on this subject. The reason 10 markers plus sex typing are considered definitive in the UK and 13 in the U.S. is because that is the number of markers that the these countries have stored in their respective DNA databases. So far as I can determine, Portugal does not have a national DNA database, though I believe there has been some discussion of establishing one.

IF, and I say if because as stated above I have not been able to confirm that Portugal actually requires this, but IF they do indeed require a 19:19 match for DNA, that is by far the highest number I have been able to find that is required by any country in the world to be considered a DNA match. My guess is that there is no precedent in Portugal that requires any specific number of markers to constitute a definitive DNA match, but that this is determined on a case-by-case basis.


In using DNA as forensic evidence, what you don't find is at least as important as what you do.

Suspects and victims don't always leave behind enough DNA to yield a specific number of markers. What you find at a crime scene is what you get. In the U.S., for example, you do not have to have 13 DNA markers to be able to go to court with it, even though that is the number of markers that the FBI stores in the CODIS database.

Let us suppose, for example, that a murder occurs. From underneath the victim's fingernails, forensic technicians are able to obtain a small DNA sample from which they can extract 12 DNA markers. They send the sample to the FBI, which runs it through the CODIS database and is able to get a 12:13 match to the DNA of a convicted rapist which was taken at the time he was convicted and stored in CODIS. All the DNA markers they have match that individual's DNA; they just don't have 13 of them.

That evidence would be admissible in court, and would be regarded as very good evidence. Yeah, yeah, the defence would likely make much of the fact that they weren't able to get at least 13 markers out of the DNA sample for comparison purposes, but it's still very strong evidence.

If, however, within that DNA sample consisting of 12 markers you found say, 9 markers that matched a sample stored in CODIS and 3 that didn't, then you can't say you've got a match on the DNA. It is not uncommon for people of the same race and ethnicity to have DNA that will be match at some locations (loci) or markers. But if you get a "no match" on even one marker, then you cannot say definitively that the DNA comes from a specific person.

That was the problem with the DNA from the McCanns' hire car: They found a tiny bit of DNA from which they were able to extract a total of 37 markers that they believed was mixed and came from more than one person. From the "known sample" of Maddie's DNA extracted from her pillow in Rothley, they had 19 markers.

Of the 37 DNA markers found in the hire car, Maddie's DNA matched 15 of them. Or looking at this in a slightly different way, the FSS knew what 19 markers of her DNA looked like and found an exact match for 15 of them in the material from the hire car. To be fair to the FSS, that could never have been regarded as a definitive slam-dunk match. But neither, in my opinion, was it as totally meaningless as the final FSS report makes it appear. I think it would have had some evidentiary value if presented in court. How much value would have been argued by dueling experts and decided by the panel of judges hearing the case if anyone had been charged.

I have never believed that the FSS deliberately set out to throw the case with regard to the DNA analysis. I do believe, though, that evidence in the file indicates that there was some sort of "preliminary" from the FSS and conveyed to the Leics police in the person of Stuart Prior at least orally. This "preliminary" report , I believe, probably indicated a much greater degree of certainty that the DNA from the hire car could have been Maddie's than the final report did.

What happened to this report I cannot say and the file does not say, but if it indeed did exist, SOMEONE on this sweet earth knows about it. The Met police need to find them and find out what that original report said. If they could do that, IMO, every penny of the money allocated for the "review" would be justified.

My personal opinion is not that the FSS was leaned on by officialdom, but that after the debacle with the LCN DNA evidence in Omagh, they were afraid to go out on a limb in any regard in an even higher-profile case. But this is the problem with that attitude, IMO: Saying nothing is not always non-controversial. All science is not 100% certain and scientists have an obligation to say so, but they also have an obligation to give their best assessment of forensic evidence when asked to do so and not try to dodge controversial conclusions. The FSS will soon be gone, and in my opinion, we will be well rid of them.
TinLizzy Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #1
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Re:DNA and FSS

Date Posted:09/11/2011 7:48 PMCopy HTML

Can anyone tell me, for the sake of argument, whether it would be possible for the sample to be made up purely of DNA from the parents - and yet still give you the 15 markers of Madeleine's DNA (since her DNA profile will have coe fro her parents)?

beachy  sept 11 2011


No, the 15 markers cannot have come from Kate and Gerry McCann. The 15 markers referred to in the FSS report matched markers found in Madeleine's DNA profile as obtained from the material on her pillowcase in Rothley.

I have posted about this many times, but I could never explain it as well as the web site listed below. I suggest that anyone who is interested in the subject and has questions take 5-10 minutes to go through it. It is an on-line slide show from the University of Utah entitled "Tour of the Basics: What Is Heredity?" which shows how a child inherits DNA from its parents and yet each of our nuclear DNA is unique. Here is the link:

<!-- m -->http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/begin/tour/<!-- m -->

Click on "What Is Heredity" in the toolbar near the top of the page. I would suggest reading through it - it only takes a few minutes- but if you click on the "next" link button five times, it will bring you to the page that I find most useful.

Pretend that "Dad" on that page is Gerry McCann, "Mom" is Kate Healy, and "First Baby" is Madeleine. It uses a simple graphic to show how parents each contribute one of a set of chromosomes to their child, but they combine in ways that are unique to the kid.

Subsequent pages illustrate how two children in the same family can have DNA profiles that are theirs alone, even though they inherit their chromosomes from the same two parents.
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