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MadeleineMcCann > DISCREPANCIES > When Did Madeleine 'Disappear' BEFORE 5.30pm or AFTER? Go to subcategory:
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TinLizzy
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  • Register:11/07/2008 1:17 AM

Date Posted:09/22/2010 1:19 AMCopy HTML

One of the most controversial issues in this case is what date/time did something happen to Madeleine.
 
For those that believe something happened earlier in the week is the question..Did she die immediately or did she suffer a trauma that led to her death later in the week?
 
For those that believe she died after 5.30pm on May 3rd there is the question as to  whether the Smith sighting is relevant and whether there was enough time, after Madeleine's death, for everything to be in place, to enable the 'abduction' scenario to be successful.
 
For many reasons, I am of the belief that Madeleine died earlier in the week.
 
I will try to summarise the  reasons I came to this conclusion.
 
Many discrepancies in the statements  (not attributed to memory) started earleir in the week along with many curiosities that are difficult to explain unless something 'odd' was happening.
 
From what I see, the T7 have attempted, in their Rogatories, to avoid outright 'lies' and have therefore come across as unable to string a sentence together. They used the method of confusing the days to cover themselves should the truth become known. What they describe is probably the truth but not for the 'day' that they claimed.
 
 

Thursday
  1. Gerry and Kate claim Madeleine asked where they were when one of them was crying. (one of Gerrys statements says it was the twins, the other statement says it was Sean. One of Kates statements says it was the twins the other says it was Amelie) http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TIMETABLES/Gerry-Kate-THURSDAY-May-3rd-Timetable-1-816810.html
  2. At 9.00am Gerry says Kate and the children left by the back door and he left by the fron door.  Kate says they all left by the front door.
  3. At 6.40 Gerry claims he opened the front door and Kate and the children came in the back door.  Kate says they all went in through the front door (even though she was carrying Madeleine because she was tired?) http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TIMETABLES/Gerry-Kate-THURSDAY-May-3rd-Timetable-1-816810.html
  4. JT claims to have witnessed Madeleine at the 'mini sail' at the beach between 10 and 11am but ROB claims they were both at the 'Sharks' mini tennis (with BOD's child) between 10 and 11am WHY?
  5. Catriona claims she saw Jane and David at the beach.  How would she know David (according to JT they were on there way back when she 'supposedly' went to the beach Thursday morning during the 'mini club sailing')
  6. JT contradicts herself and claims ROB watched the mini tennis of the other group (Sharks?) on Thursday. 
  7. Rachael claims to have seen Madeleine playing tennis (which was not that day) and, when asked by police, described the wrong court they would have been playing.  She claims this was the last time she saw Madeleine (even though she wasn't playing that day - was this because she knew Madeleine was not alive and mistakenly thought she WOULD have been playing tennis and was trying to be 'helpful' not realising it wasn't Madeleine's group?)
  8. Fiona claims she was with Gerry and Kate  by the pool and left with Kate to go to the creche to pick up Madeleine and Scarlett.  Kate and Gerry claimed they went to the apartment first and started lunch.  Gerry claims HE went to pick up Madeleine even though the records show it was Kate at 12.25pm. Catriona, in her Rogatory interview, claims not to remember who picked Madeleine up. Very different explanations of a moment they shuold all remember. WHY? http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TIMETABLES/Gerry-Kate-THURSDAY-May-3rd-Timetable-1-816810.html
  9. ROB, DP and MO left the Paraiso approx 6.15 pm and returned to play tennis after first going to their apartments for their tennis gear.  DP claims to have been asked by Gerry (who was playing tennis) to check on Kate but cannot remember the details about when Gerry asked him.
  10. DP visited Kate and went into the apartment and described the children in detail. Kate says he didn't enter.
  11. FP claims he returned back at the apartment at 7.10pm. DP claims he played tennis until close to 8.00pm
  12. FP states they were back by 7pm but Rachael says differently they stayed until about 7.40pm
  13. When asked by the police in her Rogatory about DP's whereabouts between 6 and 7 she finally admitted she didnt know (even though she 'supposedly' watched him on the tennis court when she arrived with the others from the Paraiso).
  14. When MO went to chivy up the Paynes he describes passing them a the top of the hill near the carpark, Fiona claimed it was by reception entrance and DP claimed it was inside near the pool. Dianne said he did not pass them until a year later when she realised she may have seen him as DP and FP had reminded her.
  15. FP claims none of the others went to their apartment for lunch but MO claims to have gone there for lunch.
  16. High tea - Gerry claims he was there, Kate claims he was there when she came back from a jog by the beach.  Catriona 'thinks' Gerry wasn't there and was probably playing tennis. http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TIMETABLES/Gerry-Kate-THURSDAY-May-3rd-Timetable-1-816810.html
Wednesday
  1. JT claims Madeleine played mini tennis on Wednesday even though she remembered it raining on Wednesday as she didn't play tennis the hour before she claimed to have seen Madeleine. JT's day (centred around the mini tennis that didn't happen) can be viewed here  http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Timetables-of-SPECIFIC-TIMES-ACTIVITIES/TENNIS-Timetable-Wednesday-1-769480.html
  2. Rachael claimed to have been ill and stayed in the apartment (next to Kate and Gerry's) all day and didn't go to the tapas that night and didn't hear the 'crying' that Kate claimed had happened even though they could hear noises from each other's apartments.
  3. The cleaner states that she saw a cot in the McCann's bedroom Wednesday morning and yet Kate AND Gerry deny it...WHY?
  4. Everyone states that K&G did not go to the Millenium for breakfast after Sunday and yet, not only does Dianne Webster remember POSSIBLY seeing them, in Kates diary she wrote this... WEDNESDAY -→ Millennium K and G - meet F, D and D
  5. Madeleine's bed looks barely used. Cleaner made beds Wednesday morning so she SHOULD have slept in it on Wednesday night as well as Thursday
  6. Wednesday morning there were (unusually) very early calls to Amanda Coxon (who's husband is a pathologist)

Tuesday
  1. ROB was 'supposedly' not at the tapas, though both he and JT have trouble recalling whether he was there. (relatively easy to recall if he joined in the quiz one would have thought)
  2.  The quiz mistress joined the table. She does not remember seeing Kate or DP. Was Kate at the tapas that night? 
  3. Najoua Chekaya did not see Gerry leave the table while she was there (9.00pm - 9.50pm) so was Kate in the apartment (the reason Gerry did not have to leave)?
  4. Ms Fenn heard crying for 75 minutes, starting approximately 10.30pm, shortly after Kate finished receiving a 'flurry' of phone calls (between 10.16pm and 10.27pm
  5. Mrs Fenn heard the crying from 10.30pm to 11.45pm and yet Kate says she was back in the apartment by 11.00pm(were the phone calls received at the tapas or in 5A?)
  6. Kate claims Madeleine slept in their room after midnight because Amelie was crying.
    http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/T9-Ear ... 06702.html
  7. Gerry made no comments about Tuesday night.
    http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/T9-Ear ... 06700.html
  8. Gerry walked with Jez Wilkins and Russell to the creche to pick up their children but ROB did not sign Ella out. http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TIMETABLES/Comparison-Daytime-Timetable-Creche-Times-updtd-April-1-816825.html
  9. They walked to the beach with the twins in a buggy and ordered 5 ice creams. paddled in the water but it was cold so they returned Madeleine back to the creche where she immediately was taken back to the beach for the 'ice cream trip'
Monday
  1. Kate dropped off Madeleine at 3.15pm and picked her up at 3.30pm.  The twins were not signed out on Monday.
  2. Madeleine's mini tennis shows Monday on the activity sheet but the tennis records show Tuesday (there are no records available for Monday)


Sunday/Monday/Tuesday/ Wednesday confusion

* When the blinds were broken and fixed- Kate says Sunday and fixed Monday - Documents show fixed on Tuesday

* ROB not at Tapas Bar because sick child - Monday or Tuesday .- JT cannot remember ROB at Tapas - Monday or Tuesday ------ Easy to remember the quiz and the quiz mistress, should not have created confusion with a little thought

* When Rachael was not at the tapas - Tuesday/Wednesday

* When JT saw Madeleine playing tennis (thoughts were Thursday, then changed to Wednesday but Madeleine's portion of the creche played on Tuesday even though the activity sheet showed Monday)

* McCanns at Paynes for lunch - FP Sunday or Monday or Tuesday (cleaner confirmed Sunday)

* Beach visits - Monday /Tuesday Fiona and others (she can't remember if K&G also) at beach in the evening - Monday or Tuesday

* MO running with Kate - Monday or Tuesday ------ According to Kate's diary it was Wednesday and it was the day that Rachael was sick (Wednesday)

* Kayaks Monday or Tuesday

* Maddie's crying incident,Monday/Tuesday or Wednesday - Gerry clams: Monday or Tuesday MADELEINE had slept for some time in his bedroom, with KATE, as she had told him that one or both twins were crying, making much noise.


Pre-emptive comments, curiosities and oddities

* Removing the hair bead

* Washing the tea stain

* Buying New Zealand wine

* Madeleine asking where they were on Thursday morning (Both Gerry and Kate quoted Madeleine had said twins were crying in one statement and Madeleine and Sean in another and in one statement Gerry states she asked where HE was)

* Gerry clams: Monday or Tuesday MADELEINE had slept for some time in his bedroom, with KATE, as she had told him that one or both twins were crying, making much noise. (Keep in mind this is from his statement from May 10th...Mrs Fenn did not tell them about the crying....so they were maybe pre-empting any possible witness statements, maybe attempting to confuse which day, not realising Mrs Fenns statement.)
 
* David Paynes long description of the 'healthy' children when he visited at 6.40
 
Creche Records
 
Children can be recognised by their personality traits but with something happening earlier is it POSSIBLE that Catriona didn't get to know the real Maddie?

Maddie's personality was often referred to by MW staff as 'shy'. Could they have (in retrospect) and in good faith, THOUGHT that a child they remembered (that looked similar to the younger photo used) have been Madeleine.

How often did she refer to the signing in sheet?

Chidren arrived and left sporadically, sometimes during outside activities.

There was not a requirement for a 'roll call' to ensure everyone was there.

Apparently, according to the BBC Whistleblower program <!-- m -->http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressr ... ower.shtml<!-- m -->
a child was present in the creche in another MW resort, that wasn't supposed to be there. Not necessarily something relating to this case but indicative of how there may not be a lot of security protocol attached to it.
I choose not to believe that Catriona was in collusion with the McCanns but I look at the possibility that, if she had a bad day on Thursday (both Catriona and her roommate went to bed early on Thursday night as they were tired), then it is possible that had the McCanns signed Madeleine into the creche and TOLD her Madeleine was there (she met with them on Saturday lunchtime just prior to her statement the following day) she may have second guessed herself or felt concerned about her job or MW reputation if MW had already approached her concerned regarding the Whistleblower program.

Possibly Alex Woolfall spoke to her?

<!-- l --><!-- l -->Quote:
Catriona
I did not see Kate or Gerry that night. The next time I saw them was on Saturday at lunch time, as on Friday I spent part of the morning at the Portuguese police answering questions. On Saturday I was next to the tapas Bar area when Gerry and Kate appeared. They were still agitated and anxious for news, expecting for anyone to be able to help them.


Original statement was on Sunday not Friday.
Quote:
Processos Vol II p. 253-256

Catriona Treasa Sisile Baker
Childcare Worker
Time/Date: 18H36 2007/05/06
British Citizen
Translated by Robert Murat


This would have been prior to the knowledge that the creche records would have been important in an 'abduction' hours later.

Emma Wilding accompanied Madeleine's group to the beach on WEDNESDAY but was not sure if Madeleine was there.

When did Madeleine play tennis?
 
Scrutinising the activity sheet tells me there is either something wrong with the statements or the activity sheet is not to be believed.
 
The tennis coach and Kate tell us that Madeleine played mini tennis on Tuesday but the activity sheet shows Monday           
 
[img]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy69/HiDeHo1/Activitysheet.jpg[/img]
 
Curiously the tennis sheet has a lot of changes covered by 'white out' but why was the line between 10.30-11.00 and 11.00-12.00 'whited out'? Probably nothing but curious just the same!
 
[img]http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy69/HiDeHo1/minitennissheettuesday.jpg[/img]
 
Did Madeleine play tennis Monday as per the activity sheet or Tuesday as per the tennis coach?

<!-- l -->
 

 
Proof of Madeleine being alive on Thursday.
  1. The picture used for the search was of a much younger looking Madeleine. Was it used to confuse everyone so they recalled another child instead of Madeleine?  The owner of the Paraiso claimed he saw Madeleine Thursday afternoon at the Paraiso as she was dancing with her daddy.  Only the T7 were there and he, obviously was mistaken and saw another of the tapas children that resembled the picture of Madeleine that was distributed.  Comparison pics can be seen here...  http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Discrepancies-by-Topic/Maddie-Picture-Comparison-with-Tapas-Children-1-830425.html
Witnesses who saw Madeleine during week
  1. Catriona Baker - last saw MBM before 6 pm on 3rd May, when collected by Kate - Credibility of witness not confirmed (questionable creche records and invitation and trip to Rothley in November after which her Rogatory statement has many 'issues' imo)

  2. Cecilia Dias Firmino
    - saw MBM at breakfast when she worked on Tue, Wed & thurs, but does not specify exactly when seen (Note: conflicting evidence on where breakfast was taken by the family, and when) - Possibly mistaken identity as McCanns did not go to breakfast during the week when she was working

  3. Charlotte Pennington
    - told MBM stories and talked to her on 3rd May -  Credibility of witness not confirmed (Claims to have seen the twins in their cot and yet early statement says she did not enter apartment.)

  4. Elisa Dias Romao - saw MBM every lunchtime, worked Tue, Wed & Thurs - Confusing statement but claims this -On this same day at around 17H30, she remembers that she left the reception to collect her earnings and she does not remember having seen Madeleine or her parents enter or in the interior of the TAPAS.

  5. Emma Wilding
    - saw Gerry book MBM in to creche on the 3rd May and also saw her in the afternoon - Does not know  Madeleine well
    When questioned she states that on May 3, 2007 it was the father that took Madeleine, as was customary, between 0900 and 0930; she remembers that she just said “hello” to him, because as Madelede (sic) did not belong to her group she did not talk to him very much.

    She only noticed Madeleine and not her father, and nothing seemed abnormal or unusual. ?

    She is not sure whether during the morning Madeleine’s group had outdoor activities, mainly at the pool; she does remember that around 1230 Madelew’s (sic) father went to fetch her for lunch.  Kate went with Fiona to pick her up)

    When questioned, she states that on
    Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine’s group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group
    or not, (Olympics Grass time coloured beige on Activity sheet but no 'beach trip shown) 

    She remembers that during the afternoon of May 3 Madeleine was at the Mini Club, but she does not remember at what time she arrived, and if on that day Madeleine accompanied the other children at 1645 as was customary.

    She is also not sure whether her parents joined her during the snack, as was customary. post1458.html#p1458 Was Emma mistaken about the trip to the beach on Wednesday?

    Did they go on Thursday as the creche activity sheet suggested because of rain on Wednesday?

    Why did she not remember seeing Madeleine?

    Too many children or was Madeleine missing from the group?

  6. Georgina Jackson
    - gave MBM a tennis lesson with other children on Tue 1st May , 10-11am. - After being shown the younger picture, can it be taken for granted that she would remember Madeleine actually being in the group or did she 'presume'?

    She relates it was one of the preferred activities of the McCann couple in that they had several lessons throughout the days and up to the date of the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, it being that the child also had a class, on Tuesday, 1 May (10-11h00), that class [in which] she was among a group of children was conducted by the deponent.

  7. Jeronimo Salcedes - bartender, saw MBM on the 3rd May near the restaurant. (note: question about this because although it appears in the 'snippets' post in the staff thread in the Files section, his actual statement saye he couldn't recall having seen them) - Cannot remember seeing her


    - He saw the missing Madelaine, for the last time, yesterday at 16.45h next to the restaurant; ?

    In spite of having already observed many photos of Madeleine he claims that he could not state with any certainty that he had seen her at any moment, the same goes for whom he now knows to be her twin siblings. The specifics of his work do not leave him with much time to focus his attention on the children that were around, although as he has stated previously he worked with children of Madeleine’s approximate age for almost four years.

    Since Madeleine’s disappearance, I have seen her picture many times in the media, but I cannot honestly affirm that I remember seeing her in person before the disappearance from the Ocean Club. There were many children and I never paid much attention to any of them.

  8. Maria M A Jose - saw MBM 4.30pm on 3rd May, having tea at the restaurant. - Was probably mistaken and  saw Lilly at the creche next to the Tapas Madeleine went to the creche by reception 10 minutes away.


    after seeing pictures of the missing child on television, that she realised who the girl was, referring to her as Madeleine (the name used by the journalists) remembering only at that moment that she had seen her during the meals provided to the children at the crèche, and which take place at the restaurant where she works and during arrivals at the crèche where Madeleine spent the day, located immediately next to the restaurant.the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week

    Another example of mistakenly thinking that one of the other tapas children was Madeleine?
    .


    Other Witnesses - they gave no specifics

    Bridget O'Donnell - alluded to Madeleine being in the tennis 'all pink and pretty' but was no Madeleine's mini tennis group
    Jeremy (Jes/Jez) Wilkins
    Stephen Carpenter
    Daniel Stuk


    Not in Files
    Miguel Matias, manager of the beach-side Paraíso restaurant - Was mistaken and saw one of the other tapas children damcing with her dady pven by th the CCTV footage.
    Alice Stanley & Chris Unsworth - Took children sailing May 3rd - Apparently no statements from them
Maria (Cleaner) - In my opinion this is the ONLY credible sighting of Madeleine. On Sunday afternoon as they were leaving the apartment to join the Paynes for lunch with bread in her hands and shoes that lit up
 

 
 
My 'view' of that week continues to remain similar. Each discrepancy or question that I find seems to fit with existing 'knowledge'.

I feel (relatively) confident about the sequence of events as I interpret them because of the information contained in the files. (with an enormous thanks to those that have spent an indescribable amount of time providing them for us)

I tend to follow the 'simple' explanation of what happened.

My opinion is as follows...

Madeleine died (hopefully accidentally) earlier in the week.

The details that we have been encouraged to believe, appear to be based on neglect etc., but my belief is that it is the result of the 'damage control'.

Kate needed time to grieve and that came across as 'distancing' their family from their friends.

The twins needed to be sent to the afternoon creche to allow time for dealing with the situation, regardless that children that age needed a nap.

The T7 have attempted in their Rogatories to avoid outright 'lies' and have therefore come across as unable to string a sentence together. They used the method of confusing the days to cover themselves should the truth become known. What they describe is probably the truth but not for the 'day' that they claimed.

I believe the late night at the tapas on Wednesday was to make 'final' arrangements for the 'abduction' on the Thursday.

I tend not to follow some of the 'creative' thinking attributed to the case but it certainly seems a good possibility that their bed was moved together to allow room for the cot on Tuesday night (that the cleaner saw on Wednesday morning). At this point, maybe Madeleine was fatally ill and was kept away from the twins.

If she died around that time and was contained in the blue bag in the closet that Eddie alerted to, it would make sense that Kate would not want to sleep in that room, which would account for the bed under the window in Madeleine's room being used on Wednesday night.

Phone records were deleted for those days, supposedly for a reason.

The activity just prior to Mrs Fenn hearing the crying and the early morning calls on Wednesday morning contribute to the possibility that something happened Tuesday night.

Maybe something happened to Madeleine on Monday but she remained 'sick' until Tuesday night.

It rained Wednesday morning. What did everyone do?

There are lots of 'why's' but also a lot of information we are not privy to. Had the week been 'normal' I believe we would have a fairly good idea of daily activities.

That is not the case, in fact I have been surprised to find that the initial statement given to the police by David Payne, (and all that Goncalo had to 'work' with), was negligible!  http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/T9-Early-Statement-Timetables/DAVID-PAYNE-Weekly-Timetable-EARLY-STATEMENTS-1-806693.html  Even his Rogatory interview contains very little information suitable to add to a 'timeline'.

There is a belief that he was 'involved' in some way and certainly his lack of information on his activities, during that week, supports that possibility.

Rather than focus on the creche records having fake signatures (which could, of course, be correct) I prefer to believe that they have only been 'doctored' by the McCanns along with some last minute 'additions' by Catriona to, possibly, agree with the McCanns claim that Madeleine was there.

That possibility is very controversial, understandably, but the lack of information about Madeleine's whereabouts may contain the portions of the puzzle that may explain.

I have not found any credible witness sighting of Madeleine. every one of the witnesses have questionable details behind their statements. The fact there are so few sightings of her is another reason to question whether she was seen during the latter portion of the week. A cleaner saw her on Sunday as they left the apartment to visit with the Paynes for lunch which is the ONLY credible sighting in my opinion. I would have liked to have seen more witness sightings as credible as that one.

The result of scrutinising the witnesses that 'saw' Madeleine leaves me with one person that can attest to Madeleine being alive on May 3rd at 5.30pm.

Catriona Baker.
 
 
Why are there such curiosities, many times during the week, if there wasn't anything unusual that happened to Madeleine until after 5.30pm on May 3rd.

If there wasn't anything to hide during the week why were all the phone calls deleted?

Is it a coincidence that santa's phone records and the discrepancies point to something happening earlier in the week?
 

 
Kazlux met with Goncalo and he claimed he was certain that Madeleine was in the creche on Thursday.
 
With the information he had at the time and the good probability that even to this day he may not have made sense of ANY of the Rogatory statrements its possible that he believed that at the time .
 
Alternatively he would not be able to claim his own opinion and always has to base his results on witness information that may or may not be correct or true.
 
He claims it's important to remember that what he says is based on what the INVESTIGATION finds. (alluding that his opinion may be different)
 
 

Why I don't believe something happened to Madeleine AFTER 5.30pm Thursday
 
What was Kate wearing Thursday night?

She was in athletic clothing when she returned to the apartment after high tea. Presumably she would not have changed her clothes until after a shower, which according to Kate and DP was just before he arrived at around 6.35pm but if they were lying could have been at any time.

Something happened to Madeleine and Kate changed into the checkered pants and wore them long enough for cadaver scent to have been found on them and then Kate went to the tapas with no signs of grief or swollen eyes from crying?

If something hapened after she left then was she wearing the checkered pants that night and when did the cadaver scent appear on her trousers as she didn't leave the table all night.

I cannot comprehend that such a major event could happen within the space of a few hours with no signs of grief and having the support of the T7 with no time to discuss anything with them.

That, in my opinion, is an almost impossible scenario to put together in such a short time.

Maybe, if there was not the death of Madeleine to deal with then theoretically it could be possible, but the grief of losing her would not have allowed Kate to function in the time spent at the tapas.

Only if Madeleine had died earlier and she had taken time to grieve (appearing to be the distancing of the McCann family from the others on holiday) would they all have been able to create the abduction.

Maybe not perfectly because others were involved and may not have played their part exactly as required!
 
Gerry was participating in the mens Social tennis according to Daniel Stuk (he claims 6pm -7.00pm)
 
After arriving back to the apartment I cannot believe that even someone as 'organised; as Gerry could deal with the situation and casually stroll to the tapas (without even being late!)

I would love to hear alternative opinions, especially regarding the 'Smith sighting' as I haven't had time to scrutinise the details on that and currently do not have any opinion on it.
.
( I will try to update and add links where appl\icable)
 
So....Did something happen to Madeleine BEFORE 5.30 pm May 3rd or AFTER?
 
Here are some posts reflecting the BEFORE and AFTER scenario.
 
TinLizzy Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #1
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Re:BEFORE 5.30pm Thursday or AFTER - Opinion HiDeHo

Date Posted:09/23/2010 3:33 PMCopy HTML

One of the most questionable times in my opinion is Tuesday until Wednesday morning.
 
Maintenance men came to fix the blinds in the apartment between 10am and 11am and showed Kate how to use the washing machine.
 
  • (Kate claims the shutters, in their bedroom that opens to the back garden/verandah, were broken on Sunday and repaired Monday - What were they doing to them to break them and if there was an 'issue' regarding the 'abductor' and the jemmied blinds why didn't they know they couldn't jemmy them or did they manage it (accidentally) on Sunday an thought they could repeat it on Thursday?)
  • Had Kate attempted to use the washing machine before Tuesday morning and din't know how it worked?  How much washing could have accumulated since Saturday that washing it was important?
 
Kate's tennis was 9.15-10.15am (the 15 minute delay was to allow guests to drop off their children at the creche)
 
This is where it gets confusing....
 
The creche activity sheet shows Madeleine's mini tennis on Monday.
 
Georgina the tennis coach and the tennis records show it was Tuesday 10.30-11am.
 
Rachael claimed she sat with Kate and chatted about schools just prior to Madeleine's tennis lesson when they saw them arrive at 10.30. and that Jane was there and took the tennis balls picture. When asked by the police which court they played on she described Court 1 but records show it was Court 2.  http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TIMETABLES/RACHAEL-MAMPILLY-OLDFIELD-Rogatory-Timetable-1-816805.html
 
Jane Tanner claims she was with Rachael and Kate when she saw Madeleine and Ella and four other children playing tennis. Russell was not there. http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TIMETABLES/T9-EARLY-STATEMENTS-ComparisonTables-1-816802.html
 
I do not recall any other statements regarding the tennis lessons.
 
What is very curious is that Rachael claims it was THURSDAY that this happened and that this was the last time she saw Madeleine (so was the last time she saw Madeleine Tuesday?) 
 
Jane claims the tennis lesson was Wednesday and all the events leading up to and following the mini tennis on Wednesday do not 'fit' with the rain that day (no tennis in the morning) so did she make a mistake with the day on purpose or accidentally? (These details are from her EARLY statements and not the Rogatory a year later)
 
She also claims there were four other children apart from Madeleine and Ella which 'agrees' with Tuesday creche records as there were five other children on Wednesday.
 
Both Rachael and Jane seem to have avoided attributing the details to the correct day of Tuesday.
 
Was Jane trying to 'fill' times for Wednesday because it was a day she didn't want to explain?
 
Rachael was ill and stayed in the apartment on Wednesday (and didn't go to the tapas that night. I wonder whether this was to explain what she was REALLY doing on Wednesday) and could therefore not 'move' the tennis to Wednesday and, therefore, claimed it was Thursday.
 
Back to Tuesday...
 
Gerry walked with Jez and ROB to pick the children up, through the shortcut (why does he keep referring to the shortcut?  Could it be to do with 'timing'?).
 
After their tennis lessons Jez claims to have played a game of doubles for an hour and quarter with  Gerry and two of his friends. (ROB and ?)  If they finished the lesson at 11.15am then according to Jez they would have finished at 12.30.  Madeleine was signed out at 12.20 (ten minutes away) ROB did not sign Ella out, Kate signed the twins out at 12.20 and Lily was signed out at 12.20 (unknown who signed) http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Creche-Records-Timeline/Creche-Table-1-762790.html  Unfortunately we do not know what time Jez signed his child out.
 
Kate and Gerry took the children to the beach, using buggys for the twins, and had 'five' ice-creams (specific amount to place Madeleine there with them?) Gerry describes a guitarist in detail (why?) and after a quick paddle they returned back, because it was cold, and signed Madeleine into the creche at 2.30pm (same time as ROB signed in Ella and Kate signed in the twins 10 minutes away)
 
In the morning, Ella was not signed out, in the afternoon Madeleine was not signed out.
 
Between 2.30pm and 3.30pm, immediately after Madeleine was dropped off, the children were taken for their ice cream trip which, in my opinion, is remarkably close to the time the McCanns were there. (somehow related to the reason they made the trip to the beach and ice cream statement?)
 
According to a 'travel' website, in the comments section, the 'Ice cream trip' was a big deal. 
 
Initially I thought that there was an extra cost for putting Madeleine in the creche twice a day, but that is how it is currently.  Back in May 2007, there was no extra charge for both morning and afternoon creche but outside trips had an extra charge and they should have been aware that she was visiting the beach for the ice cream trip on the same day they 'decided' to be there. (I find that suspicious and used in some way to cover a timeline.  Catriona claims they accompanied the children on an outside trip.  Is this somehow related to that?
 
Tuesday was Quiz night.
 
Najoua the quiz mistress claims that she did not see anyone leave while she was there. She does not recall seeing Kate or David Payne during the quiz (starting at 9.00pm?)or after when she sat at the table between 9.30pm and 9.50pm. 
 
She recalls seeing an empty place setting  (was this ROB's place and JT took his meal to him?  If that was the case, dinner would not have arrived until after Najoua had started the quiz and she did not see JT leave the table to take ROB's meal to him and return shortly after?)
 
Kates diary comments says his meal was 'brought' up to him as opposed to 'taken' up to him (was she with him?)
 
Kate claims they returned back to the apartment at 11.00pm (even though the quiz mistress does not recall seeing her during the evening).
 
Kates phone shows a 'flurry' of calls between 10.16pm and 10.27pm (a few minutes prior to Mrs Fenn claiming she heard the crying)
 
Was Kate at the tapas when she received these calls or was she in the apartment?
 
Mrs Fenn heard the crying from 10.30pm until 11.45pm.
 
She heard ONE child.  Were the other two children sedated or were they not in the apartment?
 
Gerry and Kate claim that Madeleine slept in their room that night as Amelie had been crying around midnight.
 
The cleaner saw a cot in their room the next morning.
 
Would they have moved one of the twins (if they were in the apartment) and moved a cot into their room for Madeleine to sleep the rest of the night or were the twins not there and the cot was in there for Madeleine?
 
Why did they both deny the cot being in their room? (definately sends a red flag to me!)
 
Wednesday morning is when there were some very early calls to Amanda (whos husband is a pathologist, not necessarily important).
 
Wednesday it rained and although they all claim that Kate and Gerry didn't go to the Millenium for breakfast during the week, Kate mentions Millenium in her diary for Wednesday and Dianne Webster thought they were there for breakfast (she was there because there was no tennis that morning due to the rain)
 
Matt claims to have run a few miles with Kate at lunchtime while Rachael stayed in the apartment as she was sick.
 
Wednesday afternoon is rarely mentioned but Wednesday night is when some of them stayed later at the tapas until after the waiters were due to finish their shift at midnight.  (my thoughts are that this may be when they discussed the plans for the following night)
 
There are other oddities about this time but for those of us that think something may have happened to Madeleine earlier in the week, these discrepancies seem to 'fit' with something happening, grieving and arrangements made for Thursday night 'abduction'.
 
Only my opinion though, and would be intrigued to hear some alternative explanations.
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Re:BEFORE 5.30pm Thursday or AFTER - Opinion HiDeHo

Date Posted:12/19/2010 5:08 PMCopy HTML

Thank you for posting the phone pings roisin.

On May 1, Kate McCann's phone pings were from 10:31 until 11:27.

Mrs. Fenn heard the crying from 10:30 PM to 11:45 PM.

There is an 80 minute gap in the phone pings (between 10:37 PM and 11:16 PM).

8:30 PM (approx) Buxom Najoua Chekaya begins Quiz at Tapas Bar

9:30 PM (approx) Buxom Najoua Chekaya invited to the table by Gerry McCann - she does not see the not-buxom Kate McCann at the table.

10:30 PM (2030 approx) Crying heard by Mrs Fenn began and continued through until (approx) 11:45 PM (2245).

10:31 PM (2031.31) Kate phone ping
10:33 PM (2033.32) Two minutes later - Kate phone ping
10:35 PM (2035.58) Two minutes later - Kate phone ping
10:37 PM (2037.24) Two minutes later - Kate phone ping

80 minutes of phone silence

11:00 PM (2200) McCanns return from "dinner" (Kate's statement) (Mrs. Fenn's statement makes no mention of hearing the doors/sliding doors at this time.)

11:16 PM (2216.15) Kate phone ping
11:23 PM (2223.15) Seven minutes later - Kate phone ping
11:23 PM (2223.28) A few seconds later - Kate phone ping
11:24 PM (2224.22) One minute later - Kate phone ping
11:25 PM (2225.36) One minute later - Kate phone ping
11:27 PM (2227.50) Two minutes later - Kate phone ping

11:45 PM (2245) Mrs. Fenn heard the sliding door (either open or close) and the crying abruptly stopped.

TIME PM 11:59 PM - midnight (approx.) Kate claims that Madeleine went into Kate and Gerry's room and said that Amelie was crying so Maddie slept with Kate and Gerry. Kate said that Amelie only cried for a short time. Kate said that the twins slept in their own individual baby cots in the children's room. Cleaner said one of the baby cots was in the parents room the next morning.



Forgive me for not being familiar with the phone records.

My previous understanding was five calls between 10.16pm and 10.27pm. Is that incorrect?

Do 'pings' mean a call in or out or only that it activated a mast?

I am not understanding the 80 mins silence. Between what times?

I think the addition of the phone records to some of the timelines I have put together will be invaluable.

The amount of pings certainly does look suspicious around that time.

I fnd it important to keep in mind that some of the comments may be lies and that the 'snoring' or argument on Wednesday night, may be covering for Kate sleeping in the other room (maybe to not be near Madeleine's body in the closet where the dogs alerted to?)

If Madeleine died on Tuesday night Wednesday would have been spent grieving and do we know for sure that Kate was at the tapas on Wednesday? Do we know for sure who was there and who stayed late?

Jez Wilkins mentions that Gerry arrived with ROB and no mention of Kate being there before he left, only that she was putting the children to bed.


<!-- l -->post437.html#p437<!-- l -->
Quote:
Jez Wilkins
On Wednesday, 2nd May, I could see it was raining and the tennis lesson was postponed. It was re-scheduled for 2:30 pm. I found this out at a later date and missed the lesson. I arrived about five (5) minutes before the end and realized this fact. I saw the usual people at the tennis lesson. I then went back to my apartment.

That evening myself and my partner attended the “Tapas” restaurant which is part of the hotel complex at the swimming pool. We sat down to eat at 7:30 pm. After about forty five (45) minutes Jerry appeared as did one of his friends. I believe it was Russell. They sat at the next table. We naturally engaged in conversation about everyday things. We spoke about childcare. That night my family were using the creche’s facility. We found out that the group of families were occupying ground floor flats near the swimming pool and they were leaving the children by themselves in order for them to go to the restaurant in the evenings. They would then go regularly to check the children who would be asleep.

I found out that Jerry was a cardiologist in a Hospital. At this time his wife was putting the children to bed. We received a call from the crèche informing that our son was awake. My partner left first and I followed shortly afterwards. The amount of time I spent with Jerry was about fifteen (15) to twenty (20) minutes we remained in the restaurant. By the time we left, Jerry was with about seven other people. I picked up my daughter from the crèche and then returned to the apartment.


It doesn't necessarily mean Kate wasn't there, but it doesn't confirm she was.
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Re:BEFORE 5.30pm Thursday or AFTER - Opinion HiDeHo

Date Posted:12/19/2010 5:11 PMCopy HTML

roisin wrote:
On May 1, Kate McCann's phone pings were from 10:31 until 11:27.

Mrs. Fenn heard the crying from 10:30 PM to 11:45 PM.

There is an 80 minute gap in the phone pings (between 10:37 PM and 11:16 PM).

8:30 PM (approx) Buxom Najoua Chekaya begins Quiz at Tapas Bar

9:30 PM (approx) Buxom Najoua Chekaya invited to the table by Gerry McCann - she does not see the not-buxom Kate McCann at the table.

10:30 PM (2030 approx) Crying heard by Mrs Fenn began and continued through until (approx) 11:45 PM (2245).

10:31 PM (2031.31) Kate phone ping
10:33 PM (2033.32) Two minutes later - Kate phone ping
10:35 PM (2035.58) Two minutes later - Kate phone ping
10:37 PM (2037.24) Two minutes later - Kate phone ping

80 minutes of phone silence

11:00 PM (2200) McCanns return from "dinner" (Kate's statement) (Mrs. Fenn's statement makes no mention of hearing the doors/sliding doors at this time.)

11:16 PM (2216.15) Kate phone ping
11:23 PM (2223.15) Seven minutes later - Kate phone ping
11:23 PM (2223.28) A few seconds later - Kate phone ping
11:24 PM (2224.22) One minute later - Kate phone ping
11:25 PM (2225.36) One minute later - Kate phone ping
11:27 PM (2227.50) Two minutes later - Kate phone ping

11:45 PM (2245) Mrs. Fenn heard the sliding door (either open or close) and the crying abruptly stopped.

TIME PM 11:59 PM - midnight (approx.) Kate claims that Madeleine went into Kate and Gerry's room and said that Amelie was crying so Maddie slept with Kate and Gerry. Kate said that Amelie only cried for a short time. Kate said that the twins slept in their own individual baby cots in the children's room. Cleaner said one of the baby cots was in the parents room the next morning.

Given that I don't believe the McCanns, I still can't work out what happened, but believe that this is the most critical time period of all.

IMO Kate may have left the bar during the Quiz itself and never returned. (Kate was not seen at the table by the buxom one.)

None of it makes sense.


Thanks for all the information and suggestions.

Is it possible to clarify whether phone pings happen for a reason, even if unknown. (incoming call or text, outgoing call or text, movement or phone activated for viewing contact list etc) or would it 'ping' for no reason?

Could somone confirm whether those pings during the time of the cryng are correct and whether the five calls prior to the crying are correct?

I believe the calls to Amanda the following morning were 7.00am-ish.

-----

I am not of the belief that neglect was the reason the T7 have acted the way they have. My thoughts are that they DID watch their children in a (relatively) responsible way but for an (as yet) unknown reason allowed the 'neglect' illusion to continue so the 'abduction' could remain credible.

Is it possible that they didn't know the full story immediately. Maybe, (and in my opinion becoming probable) Madeleine didn't die immediately.

She was VERY sick or hurt.

At this point we don't know why, but at a stretch, suppose one of the twins had accidentally caused the trauma and so everyone wanted to protect them from 'responsibility' particularly after her death.

Without the benefit of hindsight they were under the illusion that everything would be OK and by the time Madeleine died it was too late to turn back. Maybe it happened quickly and resuscitation was used etc etc

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and something I feel most of them have regrets about.

-------

Tuesday...
Najoua the quiz mistress did not recall seeing Kate during the time she was there (9.00pm -9.50pm or later?)

She did not see anyone leave the table (were the children being looked after?)

ROB was not there.

She did not remember seeing David Payne.

A quiz mistress would be more aware of participants (and non participants) than a casual patron eating their dinner.

If 'something ' was happening in 5A Tuesday night BEFORE Mrs Fenn heard the crying could ROB or DP be involved also?

Could one of them have been watching the other children?

When did Rachael/Matt arrive back to their apartment next door? Did they become 'involved' at that point?

Was there an effort to save Madeleine's life?

Was she placed in the cot in Kate and Gerrys room?

Did she die in the night? Why the phone calls to Amanda early in the morning?

The cleaner was due that morning so there would have been no signs of the trauma by the time she entered (the blood behind the couch)

NOTE: In one of Goncalo's interviews he claims details from the cleaner that were not in her statement. (cleaning the blinds I believe...could there have been other details like the location of the furniture that have not been included in her statement?)

Alternatively, beause the cadaver scent was found in the closet and I don't believe that if Madeleine was hidden there, she would have been there when the cleaner entered and they left for breakfast, could something have happened sooner and it was 'dealt' with by Wednesday morning OR was it not yet an emergency and Madeleine was looked after by one of the others while the McCanns went to breakfast?


Wednesday
Steve Carpenter saw Gerry and ROB arrive together at the tapas and he was apparently told that kate was putting the children to bed.

Not being any more than Gerry's tennis aquaintance, although possible, it was unlikely that he would be asking where Kate was. He was probably told.

We don't know for sure that Kate arrived to the tapas that night. Was she grieving?

Did some of them stay after closing attempting to come to terms with what had happened?

All of the above are just possibilities which I feel may inspire others to make some kind of sense of it.

We 'know' that cadaver scent was found in the closet.

We 'know' that there was blood found under the sofa (which had been washed) and the sofa was moved.

We 'know' their phone calls were deleted from earlier in the week.

We 'know' they denied a cot being in their room on Wednesday morning.

We 'know' it was not a 'normal' holiday and Madeleine died and they hid her body and simulated and abduction (and probably created a fund to protect themselves)

Anything is possible.
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Re:BEFORE 5.30pm Thursday or AFTER - Opinion HiDeHo

Date Posted:12/19/2010 5:16 PMCopy HTML

santacoloma
Here are KM's pings on the night of 1 May.
2216
2222
2223
2224
2225
2228

Is it correct that Catriona changed her original statement three times (a year later) and if so, would she have been able to change the content by adding or removing details or only to correct the context of the translation?

<!-- m -->http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/1 ... leave.html<!-- m -->

Some have doubts about the Ocean Club’s crèche records. The doubts increase if we pay attention to the depositions from Maddie’s last nanny

by Hernâni Carvalho

“The disappearance took place during the time period between 5.35 and 10.05 p.m. on the 3rd of May 2007”, reads the report from the 4th Brigade of the PJ in Portimão. A premiss that is now questioned. Catriona Treasa Sisile Baker was the nanny who worked at the crèche and was responsible for Maddie since the McCanns arrived in Praia da Luz. The statements that the nanny gave to the police raise doubts. After Maddie’s disappearance, she was heard by the PJ in Portimão. One week later, she was transferred to another location by her employers. Soon afterwards, she returned to England. At Leicestershire police, she was also heard, but corrected the statements that she had given in Portugal.

I was allowed to refresh my memory by reading the translated version of my original statement to the Portuguese police”, one can read in the report that was taped by Leicester police. The contents of the nanny’s statements was such that she was heard three times on the same day, and had to have her memory refreshed. At Leicestershire police headquarters, Catriona Baker was heard by detective Gierc between 10.09 and 10.54 a.m. on Monday, the 14th of April 2008. Between 11.57 and 12.12 a.m. on the same day, she was heard again by the same detective and between 1.35 and 1.45 p.m. on the same day she was again questioned by the same detective.


(...)

In Portugal, the experts that can evaluate calligraphy are from the PJ. It was explained to Tvmais that the crèche’s reports reveal inconsistencies in the writing. One of the doubts that the analysts raise concerns the identity of the authors of the form filling and their signatures in the form. The nanny’s signature and her handwriting appear on the sheet where only the parents were supposed to sign. Did anyone notice?

Source: TvMais, paper edition only 18.11.2008


----------------------------------------------------------------------

We have a list of witnesses who saw Madeleine during week.

Some can be eliminated as, IMO, they seem to have been mistaken (red)

Many of the others (in my opinion,) are questionable and may have been mistaken or were not specific about seeing Madeleine.

Which of the witnesses can be considered as a confirmed 'sighting' of Madeleine during the holiday and were not confused?

Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada is, in my opinion, a credible witness that saw Madeleine on Sunday

The picture distributed was of a younger Madeleine and may have confused some of the witnesses into thinking it was a younger child or another tapas child as can be compared in pictures on this page...

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Discre ... 80252.html<!-- m -->

and here...

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/The-Ho ... 75595.html<!-- m -->

1) - Catriona Baker
2) - Cecilia Dias Firmino -
3) - Charlotte Pennington
4) - Elisa Dias Romao -
5) - Emma Wilding -
6) - Georgina Jackson -
7) - Jeronimo Salcedes - Tapas Barman
8) - Maria M A Jose - Tapas Cook
9) - Paula Cristina da Costa Vieira -
10) -Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada(5A Cleaner's daughter) -
11) - Luisa Ana de Noronha de Azevedo Coutinho ( Receptionist)



Non Specific comments:-
Bridget O'Donnell
Jeremy (Jes/Jez) Wilkins
Stephen Carpenter
Daniel Stuk


Not in Files
Miguel Matias, manager of the beach-side Paraíso restaurant - Was mistaken and saw one of the other tapas children damcing with her dady pven by th the CCTV footage.
Alice Stanley & Chris Unsworth - Took children sailing May 3rd - Apparently no statements from them

----------------------------------------------------------------
<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Discre ... 80252.html<!-- m -->

1) - Catriona Baker
<!-- l -->
post1452.html#p1452<!-- l -->
<!-- l -->post1453.html#p1453<!-- l -->

- last saw MBM before 6 pm on 3rd May, when collected by Kate - Credibility of witness not confirmed (questionable creche records and invitation and trip to Rothley in November after which her Rogatory statement has many 'issues' imo
- may have changed her original statement 3 times during Rog interview)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
2) - Cecilia Dias Firmino - <!-- l -->post137.html#p137<!-- l -->

She says that her job is to receive guests at the entrance to the Millenium restaurant and check whether they have to pay for breakfast or whether this is included in their package. She works from 07.00 to 12.00 from Tuesdays to Saturdays. She says that she only attends to guests at breakfast time except on Wednesdays when there is Barbecue Night at the restaurant and when she welcomes guests for dinner, working from 18.00 to 22.00.

When asked, she says that due to her work she knows most of the guests given that most of them visit the Millenium as it is the only restaurant that serves breakfast.

When asked, she says that she knows the parents, the siblings and Madeleine. She received them for breakfast on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, she does not know whether they went for breakfast on Sunday or Monday, as these were her days off.

She says that breakfast was served between 08.00 and 10.00 and that the McCanns would arrive between 08.00 and 09.00.

She says that the McCanns appeared to be a normal family and that the relation between the members of the family was very good. Madeleine appeared to be very attached to her father and was always clinging on to him. Given her public relations function she was always very nice to the guests and would get involved with the children, saying that Madeleine was very shy and did not respond to her. She says that the only contact she had with guests was at the entrance to the Millenium restaurant, she did not have a view of the tables or the Buffet area


- saw MBM at breakfast when she worked on Tue, Wed & thurs, but does not specify exactly when seen (Note: conflicting evidence on where breakfast was taken by the family, and when) - Possibly mistaken identity as McCanns did not go to breakfast during the week when she was working


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
3) - Charlotte Pennington <!-- l -->post1455.html#p1455<!-- l -->

• Has been in Portugal since April 28th, the day upon which she began working for the Ocean Club tourist Complex in Luz, Lagos, and where she is employed as a child educator. Her work contract was completed in the U.K. with MarkWarner;
• The witness clarifies that between the 19th of April and the 04th of May 2007 she worked with a group of children staying in the aforementioned complex between the ages of 4 months and one year of age (the Baby Club);
• The witness further clarifies that the BabyClub group was divided in three sub-groups, with each group composed of two babies, so that each group had a different infant educator allocated to it;
• With relation to the facts of the investigation, the witness states that in the course of her work, she came across Madeleine McCann many times, explaining that, even though she [Madeleine] did not belong to her [Pennington’s] group, this was normal, as the physical space where the children groups are located is contiguous;
• The witness clarifies that Madeleine was registered with the ‘MiniClub’, a group with children between 3 and 4 years of age. The principal space where the children from MiniClub and BabyClub are situated is in the same building as the Ocean Club complex reception and this is why the witness had personal contact with the identified child. However, she clarifies that it was normal during “siesta”-- understood to be between the hours of 09H00 and 10H30 and 14H30 and 15H00, at the exact time that children are brought into the crèche by their parents—when the children under her guard are asleep, that she would participate with the children and the activities in the MiniClub;
• Witness states that on two different days, Sunday, 29th of April 2007, and on Thursday, 03rd of May 2007, she had direct contact with Madeleine McCann, telling her stories and speaking with her.
• Witness states that as she was an intelligent child, timid at first contact, and who later felt more comfortable, was a child who conversed normally for her age, and was of a calm demeanour. She adds that it was usual for Madeleine to be called “Maddy”, as this is how she [Madeleine] presented herself to the witness;




- told MBM stories and talked to her on 3rd May - Credibility of witness not confirmed (Claims to have seen the twins in their cot and yet early statement says she did not enter apartment.)

She arrived April 28th (but claims to have worked from April 19th?) and on the first day of working with the babies, she leaves them asleep and reads to Maddie?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
4) - Elisa Dias Romao - <!-- l -->post11634.html#p11634<!-- l -->

The witness works at the Luz Ocean Club, on contract. Her functions include attending to the reception area of the Garden Club (where the Millenium restaurant is found).

This is the second period in which she has worked for the LOC, always in the same role.

Her days off are Sundays and Mondays.

Regarding the investigation, the witness states that she became aware of the same, on Friday. That morning, when she showed up for work, she heard talk that a British child had disappeared the night prior and that since then no one knows of her whereabouts.

With relation to the other elements gathered afterwards, the witness confirms that she became aware of them via the media and other talk between the guests and colleagues.

She firmly believes that no one knows precisely how everything happened.

Regarding the group linked to the couple and the missing child and her two siblings, she only became aware afterwards that Madeleine’s siblings were twins. The witness remembers seeing them in the Garden Club, near the pool and the Tapas restaurant.
They appeared a normal family, as did the entire group. She did not notice any strange or suspicious details.

When questioned, the witness clarifies that she worked at the Garden Club reception (NOTE: Millenium?) on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, at a time covering the lunch hour. She remembers seeing the couple with their children as they had to pass the reception to leave the area. She next saw them head in the direction of the apartment where the witness believes they had lunch.

She believes that they left always between 12H30 and 13H00.

Around 14H00 the couple would return around 14H00, in fact, most of the couples would return their children to the crèche around this time. She does not know if the three McCann children were together given their different ages.

When questioned, the witness states that the parents would spend the majority of the time inside the Garden Club, in activities such as playing tennis, as they were a group of four couples (the reservation was always made for 9 adults). They would only all meet together for dinner.

The couple would only leave the Garden Club after the children’s tea, which was served by the nannies in that area around 17H00/18H00.

It was only after this period that they would leave with the children in the direction of their respective apartments.


Questioned, states that she was left with the notion that the four couples always took their children when they went out or that they (the children) never left the area without their parents.

Her normal working day was from 09.00 – 17.00 and therefore she was never present when the group was dining.

Her working day was normal that day and she did not see anything of interest to the investigation.

On this same day at around 17H30, she remembers that she left the reception to collect her earnings and she does not remember having seen Madeleine or her parents enter or in the interior of the TAPAS.




- saw MBM every lunchtime, worked Tue, Wed & Thurs - Confusing statement but claims this -On this same day at around 17H30, she remembers that she left the reception to collect her earnings and she does not remember having seen Madeleine or her parents enter or in the interior of the TAPAS.

Did she work at Millenium or Tapas?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
5) - Emma Wilding - <!-- l -->post1458.html#p1458<!-- l -->

When questioned she states that she knows Madelede’s (sic) parents because although Madeleine is not in her group, she frequently speaks to her parents, and finds their concerns and interests normal and typical of parents.

When questioned she states that there are parents that leave their respective children during the whole day and every day at the clubs, and that this is normal within British culture. With respect to Madeleine, she states that she spent most of her time at the Mini Club. The children began arriving at 0900 until 1230 when their respective parents collected them for lunch, and returned at 1430 until 1645 when the Infants’ teachers took the children to eat something appropriate for their age at the Tapas restaurant. Most of the parents met their respective children here, and the children then remained in their parents’ care.

When questioned she states that on May 3, 2007 it was the father that took Madeleine, as was customary, between 0900 and 0930; she remembers that she just said “hello” to him, because as Madelede (sic) did not belong to her group she did not talk to him very much.

She only noticed Madeleine and not her father,(?) and nothing seemed abnormal or unusual.

She is not sure whether during the morning Madeleine’s group had outdoor activities, mainly at the pool;( MINI SAIL?) she does remember that around 1230 Madelew’s (sic) father went to fetch her for lunch.

When questioned, she states that on Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine’s group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group or not, and does not remember having seen anybody specifically taking direct and close-up photographs of the children.

She remembers that during the afternoon of May 3 Madeleine was at the Mini Club, but she does not remember at what time she arrived, and if on that day Madeleine accompanied the other children at 1645 as was customary.

She is also not sure whether her parents joined her during the snack, as was customary.

During this period of time she did not notice anybody or anything out of the ordinary, as her attention was wholly focused on the children.

That night, at around 2200 she learned that Madeleine had disappeared, and together with her colleagues she helped look for her.

As regards Madeleine, she did not spent much time with her because she was not in her group; she did not know her well, but Madeleine appeared to be somewhat shy, this was noticeable the first days. Since she met her, she noticed nothing abnormal in any aspect that would point to Madeleine being a child that was out of the ordinary.




She only noticed Madeleine and not her father, and nothing seemed abnormal or unusual. ?

she does remember that around 1230 Madelew’s (sic) father went to fetch her for lunch. (Kate went with Fiona to pick her up)

When questioned, she states that on Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine’s group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group or not, (Olympics Grass time coloured beige on Activity sheet but no 'beach trip shown)

Was Emma mistaken about the trip to the beach on Wednesday Who accompanied Catriona on the mini sail?

Did they go on Thursday as the creche activity sheet suggested because of rain on Wednesday?

Why did she not remember seeing Madeleine?

Too many children or was Madeleine missing from the group?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Quote:
6)GEORGINA LOUISE JACKSON
Questioned, she relates that she knew the McCann family as part of her work, since she gave them tennis lessons, as a couple, parents of the missing Madeleine, as well as the other couples who accompanied them.

She reports that the group iniciated contact with the tennis instructors on the 29 April, the day immediately after their arrival at the Ocean Club.

The deponent has the calendar of classes given by her and by her colleague DAN to the McCann couple.

She relates it was one of the preferred activities of the McCann couple in that they had several lessons throughout the days and up to the date of the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, it being that the child also had a class, on Tuesday, 1 May (10-11h00), that class [in which] she was among a group of children was conducted by the deponent.
As for the parents, she relates that a first lesson of instruction was done in the morning of 29 April, it being that, on that day, they had no more lessons.

On the following days the parents of Madeleine, whom the deponent identified as Gerry and Kate McCann, scheduled 16 tennis classes, together and/or separately, at different times of the morning or afternoon, classes that were conducted by either her or by DAN depending on their booking calendar.

Questioned about the class times of G&K McCann on last Thursday, 3 May, she related that the mother of MBM had a group class at 09-10h00 conducted by herself; the father had a group class at 10-11h00 conducted by DAN.

Later, at 15-15h45, the couple had a private class, together, conducted by DAN - and finally, GM participated in the men's social tennis event at 18-19h00.

Questioned about whether she had also conducted tennis lessons for an individual called Jeremy Wilkins, who was commonly known as Jez, the deponent relates that that individual booked, and attended, some tennis lessons, but that all of those had been given by DAN.

She relates that, as they had group lessons together GM and Jez had had some conversations, but she thinks that it is only because they shared some classes and that those [conversations] will not have given rise to a firm friendship, but rather to a simple acquaintanceship as they both happened to be British on holiday in the same place, both had small children and they shared some tennis lessons.

Questioned about the couple and their behaviour, both between the family and with the other group members, the deponent relates that she never noted any issue between them, and that the behaviour of everyone was like any other group of tourists that take their holidays in the resort every day.

There never appeared any problem between them and other people.

It being asked of her, the deponent relates that the McCann couple and the remaining group members had often been together, not always all of them, but the majority of the people were sociable with each other.

She relates that they spent most of the day within the OC resort, in the pool, also they went to the beach but they did not use any of the OC activities there, and they centered their attention on the developed activities of the resort, it being that the couple preferred, unquestionably, tennis.

All four couples had children who were, for part of the day, under the care of the child care workers of the Ocean Club.

Questioned, she relates that she does not know where they usually ate lunch and that, at dinner time, the deponent was not at the Ocean Club, although she had heard that they dined, every night except the day they arrived, in the Tapas restaurant next to the swimming pool.

Also, she had been told that, at dinner, the group only comprised adults, since the children were in the apartments, but the deponent never witnessed it.



Did Georgina make this statement because she remembered Madeleine specifically from all the other children (some pretty in pink) or was it a generalised answer after having checked the registrations and seen that madeleine's group played tuesday morning.

Quote:
it being that the child also had a class, on Tuesday, 1 May (10-11h00), that class [in which] she was among a group of children was conducted by the deponent


Does that statement CONFIRM that Madeleine was there or is it only that she presumes she was there because of the records?

I would say although she believes Madeleine played on Tuesday morning it does not confirm Madeleine was there (and alive.)


- gave MBM a tennis lesson with other children on Tue 1st May , 10-11am. - After being shown the younger picture, can it be taken for granted that she would remember Madeleine actually being in the group or did she 'presume' or did she respond 'among a group of children' because the records showed this was Madeleine's group?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
7) - Jeronimo Salcedes - Tapas Barman
<!-- l -->post979.html#p979<!-- l -->
<!-- l -->post26971.html#p26971<!-- l -->
<!-- l -->post176.html#p176<!-- l -->

- He saw the missing Madelaine, for the last time, yesterday at 16.45h next to the restaurant; ?

In spite of having already observed many photos of Madeleine he claims that he could not state with any certainty that he had seen her at any moment, the same goes for whom he now knows to be her twin siblings. The specifics of his work do not leave him with much time to focus his attention on the children that were around, although as he has stated previously he worked with children of Madeleine’s approximate age for almost four years.

Since Madeleine’s disappearance, I have seen her picture many times in the media, but I cannot honestly affirm that I remember seeing her in person before the disappearance from the Ocean Club. There were many children and I never paid much attention to any of them.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
8) - Maria M A Jose - Tapas Cook <!-- l -->post194.html#p194<!-- l -->


after seeing pictures of the missing child on television, that she realised who the girl was, referring to her as Madeleine (the name used by the journalists) remembering only at that moment that she had seen her during the meals provided to the children at the crèche, and which take place at the restaurant where she works and during arrivals at the crèche where Madeleine spent the day, located immediately next to the restaurant.the last time she saw Madeleine was at approximately 16.30 on 3rd May 2007 when she was having dinner with the other children in their part of the restaurant, as she did each day of that week


Another example of mistakenly thinking that one of the other tapas children was Madeleine?

She claims the child went to the creche next to the tapas, Madeleine's creche was near Millenium

- saw MBM 4.30pm on 3rd May, having tea at the restaurant. - Was probably mistaken and may have seen Lilly at the creche next to the Tapas Madeleine went to the creche by reception 10 minutes away.
.----------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
9) - Paula Cristina da Costa Vieira (Cleaning Staff- Millenium)
<!-- l -->post230.html#p230<!-- l -->

The witness states that she has worked at the OC resort for about a month from this date, exercising her functions in cleaning around the pool and in the reception of this hotel establishment.
Her normal working hours are from 09H00 and 19H00, with about 30 minutes for lunch, between 13H30 and 14H00.
She adds that her days off are Fridays and Saturdays.
That, as she mainly cleans in the above mentioned areas, her contact with the guests is limited to perhaps observing them in the reception or when using the pools. She adds that she does not understand the English language well.
Further adds that she is the only employee who cleans the reception and that there are two other people who help clean the other areas.
When questioned she states that she has no direct knowledge of the facts of the current investigation.
In fact, she adds that she only became aware of the situation on 04.05.07, Friday, at around 11H00 as she was told by the club receptionist whom she knows only as Monica.
This happened because on Thursday the 3rd of May she finished work at her normal time.
This being the case, she left the OC on Thursday the 3rd of May around 19H00 and went towards her residence indicated above. The next day she was off duty.
She further informs that on this same day, Thursday, she had no information from the news.
When asked, she adds that she knows nothing of the details of the disappearance of the child or any other details of the situation other than those gathered from her colleagues and from the news on Friday.
With respect to the child in question, Madeleine, and her family, the witness adds when she did hear about what happened, she was not able to associate the name with the person in question.
When she saw her photograph, and saw the images of the parents, she did remember having seen them, about two times—the child in question and her family when they were leaving the Millenium Club breakfast (around 9h30/10H00) and only because this was her time to the clean the reception of the establishment.
From these fortuitous encounters, the witness adds that they appeared a perfectly normal family.
She reaffirms that she never had any other contact with the family of the missing child or with the child in question.


-----------------------------------------------

Quote:
10) -Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada (Cleaner) - <!-- l -->post184.html#p184<!-- l -->

She states that this took place on Sunday 29th April, just before she finished her morning work shift (13.30) as she had the afternoon off that day. At about 13.15 she went to help her mother, who was cleaning apartment I of the same block (5) situated on the first floor. She clearly remembers seeing the girl accompanied by her siblings and mother leave their apartment (5 A) and walk to the stairs leading to the floor above. She was very close to them at a distance of about 1 metre, observing their movements for a few moments because she was charmed by them. Madeleine led the way with a plate (perhaps plastic) in her hand bearing a piece of bread. As regards the clothes she was wearing she only remembers a skirt but cannot recall its description. She noted, because she thought them nice, the type of shoes she was wearing, tennis shoes, light in colour she thinks, which had little lights along the soles, which lit up each time she stepped on the ground. Her siblings followed behind her, wearing the same king of shoes and each holding a piece of bread in their hands, their mother followed behind them without holding their hands. She seems to remember that the mother was also carrying a plate. Moments afterwards, perhaps the time it took to close the apartment door, the father came out and also headed to the apartment upstairs. When asked, she does not remember whether the father pulled the door closed or locked it with a key.

After she chatted to her mother about there being many children in the apartments, she had the idea that the family in 5H were friends of Madeleine’s family who were staying in 5 A.

She never cleaned any of these apartments referred to as they were allocated to her mother. Her mother never mentioned anything strange to her, either before or after the girl’s disappearance that could be related to the disappearance. The only comment she remembered concerned the clutter in the apartments, mainly clothing which was left all around the place. She thinks that her mother cleaned the apartments in that block on Monday and Wednesday (02-05).


In my opinion this is a really credible sighting of Madeleine. On Sunday afternoon as they were leaving the apartment to join the Paynes for lunch with bread in her hands and shoes that lit up

-----------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
11) - Luisa Ana de Noronha de Azevedo Coutinho ( Receptionist)http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post186.html#p186

She remembers that on Sunday 29th April one of the elements of the group arrived with the child Madeleine McCann, she does not know his name and can only say that he was male and tall and thin and that he approached her to request a booking for the whole group, for the whole week and always at 20.30.

When questioned, she confirms that the man was not the father of the girl but one of the members of the group whom was often seen in his company.

The man justified his request by saying that the group had many small children whom they would leave alone when they went to dine. She said that at intervals some two parents would go to the apartments to see if everything was OK.

The deponent made some comments about the request, saying that the Tapas received many requests and that MW only had a quota of 20 per day, but upon the insistence of the guest she managed to make the bookings requested.

She confirms that it was possible to see the apartment from the restaurant, including the window of the sitting room.


ROB made arrangements on Sunday. Could this have been his daughter Ella, who is similar in appearance to Madeleine and was not (apparently) at the creche on Sunday morning when the booking should have been made.?

-------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Other Witnesses - they gave no specifics

Bridget O'Donnell - alluded to Madeleine being in the tennis 'all pink and pretty' but was no Madeleine's mini tennis group
Jeremy (Jes/Jez) Wilkins
Stephen Carpenter
Daniel Stuk


Not in Files
Miguel Matias, manager of the beach-side Paraíso restaurant - Was mistaken and saw one of the other tapas children damcing with her dady pven by th the CCTV footage.
Alice Stanley & Chris Unsworth - Took children sailing May 3rd - Apparently no statements from them

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Re:BEFORE 5.30pm Thursday or AFTER - Opinion HiDeHo

Date Posted:12/19/2010 5:48 PMCopy HTML

I'm not sure of the time they were there.

The cleaner saw them inside the apartment when she saw the cot in their bedroom.

Her hours of work are from 10am - 6.00pm

. She remembers that when she entered the apartment (A), on Wednesday, that inside she came across the parents. After being allowed to enter, she carried out her work, as they had already left. While she was there, she did not come across any child, supposing that they were in the crèche; .
. During the time she carried out her work, she remembers having seen, given the scenario presented, that the couple slept in the room opposite the entrance way, where she came across a children’s cot. This room gives access to an exterior garden which is called the ground floor, and to a veranda.
<!-- l -->post154.html#p154<!-- l -->

We don't know the time she entered but would have been during creche times (9am-12.30pm and 2.30pm-5.30p,

They were both there so it would not have been during tennis in the afternoon.

Gerry was rescheduled 2.30pm-3.30pm and Kate was 3.30pm-4.30pm

No confirmation they attended those lessons but if they had, it is unlikely that the cleaner would have seen them together in the afternoon.

Kate went running with Matt at 'lunchtime' according to Matthew.

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16786.html<!-- m -->
Quote:
Reply “Erm, I remember I went running with Kate at lunchtime, she’s quite a good runner, and we went out on the road all the way up to the main junc, erm, the sort of main road where you access Praia da Luz from and then back”.
4078 “What sort of distance would that be?”
Reply “Erm, yeah, I think it’d be about three or four miles, maybe each way”.


According to Kate around 11.30-12.30 before she got the 'kids'
+ / - 11.30 Kate run with Matt
+ / - 40 min.
Get kids

Madeleine was signed out by CAT at 12.30pm and Amelie and Sean at 12.25pm by Kate
<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Creche ... 62790.html<!-- m -->

This is the Wednesday entry in Kates Diary
Quote:
Wednesday - 02.05.2007
Breakfast apartment? apartment cleaning
RAIN
Kids club
Tennis → postponed wet courts
Millennium K and G - meet F, D and D
+ / - 11.30 Kate run with Matt
+ / - 40 min.

Get kids
Lunch - apartment, recreational area
Kids club
G Tennis 14.30-15.30
K 15.30-16.30 tennis? tennis lesson
? G Tennis lessons 16:30
Launching speed
? object tennis

High tea → recreational area

Rest. - No Rachael (5B)
Apartment next door
- Slightly later bedtime? 24.00
→ to bar after dinner


So, by the (non scientific) process of elimination I would say that the cleaner saw Kate and Gerry between 10am and 11.30am

GM signed the twins into creche at 9.10am and Madeleine in at 9.30? so it seems they could have had breakfast BEFORE they took the children at 9.10am (leaving the Millenium at 9.00am for the 10 minute walk to the tapas and then returning with Madeleine to sign her in to Lobsters which does not sound logical to walk back when they could have dropped her before leaving)

or

They took the twins at 9.10am, dropped Madeleine off at 9.30? and went to the Millenium without the children, in which case Cecelia would not have seen Madeleine.

They would have returned to the apartment after 10am and before 11.30am to see the cleaner whe she arrived.

A lengthy way of getting to the probable/possible events of that morning! :s_biggrin

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rather than looking at the statements to use them as a suggestion that Madeleine may have died before 5.30pm, I thought that someone could reassure me that the skepticism I have about them when scrutinised is not justified.

Did Maria the cook reaaly see Madeleine at te creche next to the tapas?

Was Madeleine playing tennis with Bridget O'Donnells child's group on Thursday?

How did Cecelia see Madeleine if they didn't go to the restaurant or are they telling porkies and if so, why?

Was it really Madeleine in the Paraiso dancing with her daddy as seen by Miguel?

Did Charlotte really leave her two charges (babies) on her first day? (presuming they slept from the moment they were dropped off and for the next half an hour) so she could go and read specifically to Madeleine (who, according to Catriona may have not been there on the Sunday morning but was signed in by Kate at 9.45am and signed out by Gerry at 12.15pm)

Why would she have claimed to have worked from April 19th when she was seen 'arriving'? by ROB on Saturday April 28th?

I have not yet compiled the questions I have for the remaining witnesses.

It is known that I feel something happened to Madeleine before 5.50 pm on May 3rd and with great effort I attempt to explain my reasoning.

I would be happy to have someone explain that the discrepancies that I find are incorrect.

If I believed that Madeleine was truly seen by these witnesses I would be summarising how their inconsistencies could be explained.

I would not expect my belief to be justified just because I chose to believe witness statements without question.

I encourage anyone to dispute the individual discrepancies that I have found as opposed to 'blanket' statements of how wrong my judgement is.

I will eliminate each discrepancy that is pointed out to me to be incorrect.

Until then, I can only believe my findings and at this point I find we are down to only a few witnesses that claim to have seen Madeleine.

Will they stand up under scrutiny to show Madeleine was alive?

That leaves 5 remaining witnesses (for now).

1) - Catriona Baker
4) - Elisa Dias Romao -
5) - Emma Wilding -
6) - Georgina Jackson -
9) - Paula Cristina da Costa Vieira -
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Re:BEFORE 5.30pm Thursday or AFTER - Opinion HiDeHo

Date Posted:12/19/2010 5:50 PMCopy HTML

Seems I may have missed one statement..

<!-- l -->post1779.html#p1779<!-- l -->
Quote:
9)GEORGINA LOUISE JACKSON
Questioned, she relates that she knew the McCann family as part of her work, since she gave them tennis lessons, as a couple, parents of the missing Madeleine, as well as the other couples who accompanied them.

She reports that the group iniciated contact with the tennis instructors on the 29 April, the day immediately after their arrival at the Ocean Club.

The deponent has the calendar of classes given by her and by her colleague DAN to the McCann couple.

She relates it was one of the preferred activities of the McCann couple in that they had several lessons throughout the days and up to the date of the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, it being that the child also had a class, on Tuesday, 1 May (10-11h00), that class [in which] she was among a group of children was conducted by the deponent.
As for the parents, she relates that a first lesson of instruction was done in the morning of 29 April, it being that, on that day, they had no more lessons.

On the following days the parents of Madeleine, whom the deponent identified as Gerry and Kate McCann, scheduled 16 tennis classes, together and/or separately, at different times of the morning or afternoon, classes that were conducted by either her or by DAN depending on their booking calendar.

Questioned about the class times of G&K McCann on last Thursday, 3 May, she related that the mother of MBM had a group class at 09-10h00 conducted by herself; the father had a group class at 10-11h00 conducted by DAN.

Later, at 15-15h45, the couple had a private class, together, conducted by DAN - and finally, GM participated in the men's social tennis event at 18-19h00.

Questioned about whether she had also conducted tennis lessons for an individual called Jeremy Wilkins, who was commonly known as Jez, the deponent relates that that individual booked, and attended, some tennis lessons, but that all of those had been given by DAN.

She relates that, as they had group lessons together GM and Jez had had some conversations, but she thinks that it is only because they shared some classes and that those [conversations] will not have given rise to a firm friendship, but rather to a simple acquaintanceship as they both happened to be British on holiday in the same place, both had small children and they shared some tennis lessons.

Questioned about the couple and their behaviour, both between the family and with the other group members, the deponent relates that she never noted any issue between them, and that the behaviour of everyone was like any other group of tourists that take their holidays in the resort every day.

There never appeared any problem between them and other people.

It being asked of her, the deponent relates that the McCann couple and the remaining group members had often been together, not always all of them, but the majority of the people were sociable with each other.

She relates that they spent most of the day within the OC resort, in the pool, also they went to the beach but they did not use any of the OC activities there, and they centered their attention on the developed activities of the resort, it being that the couple preferred, unquestionably, tennis.

All four couples had children who were, for part of the day, under the care of the child care workers of the Ocean Club.

Questioned, she relates that she does not know where they usually ate lunch and that, at dinner time, the deponent was not at the Ocean Club, although she had heard that they dined, every night except the day they arrived, in the Tapas restaurant next to the swimming pool.

Also, she had been told that, at dinner, the group only comprised adults, since the children were in the apartments, but the deponent never witnessed it.



Did Georgina make this statement because she remembered Madeleine specifically from all the other children (some pretty in pink) or was it a generalised answer after having checked the registrations and seen that madeleine's group played tuesday morning.

Quote:
it being that the child also had a class, on Tuesday, 1 May (10-11h00), that class [in which] she was among a group of children was conducted by the deponent


Does that statement CONFIRM that Madeleine was there or is it only that she presumes she was there because of the records?

I would say although she believes Madeleine played on Tuesday morning it does not confirm Madeleine was there (and alive.)

eg. If she had made any type of comment like...
I remember Madeleine playing on Tuesday with her group wearing her little shoes that lit up would have been enough for me to confirm her being there.

or

Something like: I remember Madeleine playing on Tuesday. Many of her group and her mum was there watching her. They took pictures

Her hat kept falling off - I remember her telling me to call her Maddieetc etc

Anything except 'she was among a group of children'.

Doesn't prove she was there (or alive) imo.

Another one off the list of confirmed sighting of Madeleine.
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:00 am 

Summary:


Credible sighting of Madeleine Sunday April 29th lunchtime.
10) -Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada(5A Cleaner's daughter) -

Possible mistaken identity.
2) - Cecilia Dias Firmino -
Receptionist at Millenium and 'saw' Madeleline and her parents on days they were not there.
7) - Jeronimo Salcedes - Tapas Barman
Could not say with certainty whether he saw Madeleine.
8) - Maria M A Jose - Tapas Cook
Claims she saw Madeleine when she attended the creche next to the tapas but Madeleine went to the creche 10 minutes away.
11) - Luisa Ana de Noronha de Azevedo Coutinho ( Receptionist)
Saw 'Madeleine' when ROB booked the tapas but may have been mistaken as Ella and Madeleine are similar (as can be seen in pics on link posted above) Bookngs were made in the morning and Ella did not attend creche that day so may have been with her father.
Bridget O'Donnell
'All pink and pretty'. It was not the Lobsters mini tennis that she describes. Madeleine played another day.
Miguel Matias
Saw Madeleine dancing with her daddy at the Paraiso but CCTV footage proves he was incorrect and mistakenly thought another tapas child was Madeleine.


Non Specific comments that do not (imo) confirm Madeleine's presence:-

Jeremy (Jes/Jez) Wilkins
Stephen Carpenter
Daniel Stuk

Statements that 'allude' to seeing Madeleine but not specific:
6) - Georgina Jackson : 'it being that the child also had a class' 'she was among a group of children'

Does that statement CONFIRM that Madeleine was there, she remembers her specifically, or is it only that she presumes she was there because of the records?

Scrutinising the statements does not prove Madeleine died prior to 5.30pm on May 3rd.

Can the remaining statements stand up to scrutiny to 'prove' she WAS alive after lunchtime on Sunday April 29th when she was seen by the cleaners daughter (Fatima)?


That leaves 5 remaining witnesses that claim, in their statements, to have seen Madeleine during the holday.
1) - Catriona Baker
3) - Charlotte Pennington
4) - Elisa Dias Romao -
5) - Emma Wilding -
9) - Paula Cristina da Costa Vieira -


Alice Stanley & Chris Unsworth - Took children sailing May 3rd - Apparently no statements from them-

-----------------------------------------
I am confused whether Elisa Dias Romao works at the Millenium or tapas, but regardless, I see nothing in her statement that says she 'saw' Madeleine. Only referring to the 'twins' and 'children'.

'She does not know if the three McCann children were together given their different ages'

I do not consider this a 'confirmed' sighting of Madeleine. (leaving 4 possible confirmed 'sightings')

HiDeHo wrote:
Quote:
4) - Elisa Dias Romao - <!-- l -->post11634.html#p11634<!-- l -->

The witness works at the Luz Ocean Club, on contract. Her functions include attending to the reception area of the Garden Club (where the Millenium restaurant is found).

This is the second period in which she has worked for the LOC, always in the same role.

Her days off are Sundays and Mondays.

Regarding the investigation, the witness states that she became aware of the same, on Friday. That morning, when she showed up for work, she heard talk that a British child had disappeared the night prior and that since then no one knows of her whereabouts.

With relation to the other elements gathered afterwards, the witness confirms that she became aware of them via the media and other talk between the guests and colleagues.

She firmly believes that no one knows precisely how everything happened.

Regarding the group linked to the couple and the missing child and her two siblings, she only became aware afterwards that Madeleine’s siblings were twins. The witness remembers seeing them in the Garden Club, near the pool and the Tapas restaurant.
They appeared a normal family, as did the entire group. She did not notice any strange or suspicious details.

When questioned, the witness clarifies that she worked at the Garden Club reception (NOTE: Millenium?) on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, at a time covering the lunch hour. She remembers seeing the couple with their children as they had to pass the reception to leave the area. She next saw them head in the direction of the apartment where the witness believes they had lunch.

She believes that they left always between 12H30 and 13H00.

Around 14H00 the couple would return around 14H00, in fact, most of the couples would return their children to the crèche around this time. She does not know if the three McCann children were together given their different ages.

When questioned, the witness states that the parents would spend the majority of the time inside the Garden Club, in activities such as playing tennis, as they were a group of four couples (the reservation was always made for 9 adults). They would only all meet together for dinner.

The couple would only leave the Garden Club after the children’s tea, which was served by the nannies in that area around 17H00/18H00.

It was only after this period that they would leave with the children in the direction of their respective apartments.


Questioned, states that she was left with the notion that the four couples always took their children when they went out or that they (the children) never left the area without their parents.

Her normal working day was from 09.00 – 17.00 and therefore she was never present when the group was dining.

Her working day was normal that day and she did not see anything of interest to the investigation.

On this same day at around 17H30, she remembers that she left the reception to collect her earnings and she does not remember having seen Madeleine or her parents enter or in the interior of the TAPAS.




- saw MBM every lunchtime, worked Tue, Wed & Thurs - Confusing statement but claims this -On this same day at around 17H30, she remembers that she left the reception to collect her earnings and she does not remember having seen Madeleine or her parents enter or in the interior of the TAPAS.

Did she work at Millenium or Tapas?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once again, I cannot see anything in Paula Cristina da Costa Vieira statement that would CONFIRM she saw Madeleine. (although she may be referring to Sunday morning which is not an issue)

'When she saw her photograph, and saw the images of the parents, she did remember having seen them, about two times—the child in question and her family when they were leaving the Millenium Club breakfast (around 9h30/10H00) and only because this was her time to the clean the reception of the establishment'


Quote:
12) - Paula Cristina da Costa Vieira (Cleaning Staff- Millenium)
<!-- l -->post230.html#p230<!-- l -->

The witness states that she has worked at the OC resort for about a month from this date, exercising her functions in cleaning around the pool and in the reception of this hotel establishment.
Her normal working hours are from 09H00 and 19H00, with about 30 minutes for lunch, between 13H30 and 14H00.
She adds that her days off are Fridays and Saturdays.
That, as she mainly cleans in the above mentioned areas, her contact with the guests is limited to perhaps observing them in the reception or when using the pools. She adds that she does not understand the English language well.
Further adds that she is the only employee who cleans the reception and that there are two other people who help clean the other areas.
When questioned she states that she has no direct knowledge of the facts of the current investigation.
In fact, she adds that she only became aware of the situation on 04.05.07, Friday, at around 11H00 as she was told by the club receptionist whom she knows only as Monica.
This happened because on Thursday the 3rd of May she finished work at her normal time.
This being the case, she left the OC on Thursday the 3rd of May around 19H00 and went towards her residence indicated above. The next day she was off duty.
She further informs that on this same day, Thursday, she had no information from the news.
When asked, she adds that she knows nothing of the details of the disappearance of the child or any other details of the situation other than those gathered from her colleagues and from the news on Friday.
With respect to the child in question, Madeleine, and her family, the witness adds when she did hear about what happened, she was not able to associate the name with the person in question.
When she saw her photograph, and saw the images of the parents, she did remember having seen them, about two times—the child in question and her family when they were leaving the Millenium Club breakfast (around 9h30/10H00) and only because this was her time to the clean the reception of the establishment.
From these fortuitous encounters, the witness adds that they appeared a perfectly normal family.
She reaffirms that she never had any other contact with the family of the missing child or with the child in question.



Confirmed 'sightings' of Madeleine now relies on 3 witness statements

1) - Catriona Baker
3) - Charlotte Pennington
5) - Emma Wilding -

It is, of course, possible that I have missed some statements claiming to have seen Madeleine during the holiday.

I would like to know I have the complete list, so if anyone knows of more please let me know....

So sad that there were not more people that were rushing to claim they saw her!

I have just recalled a holidaymaker that had a news article claiming her son played with Madeleine on Thursday..

I will try to find it...

 
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Re:BEFORE 5.30pm Thursday or AFTER - Opinion HiDeHo

Date Posted:12/19/2010 5:53 PMCopy HTML

The main thing I am trying to establish, Reggie, is that the 'so called' witness sightings CONFIRM Madeleine was there.

What I am finding is that they are all questionable.

This would not confirm that Madeleine was not there, but so far, imo, they do not confirm she WAS there.

Very important point, in my opinion.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So far there are three witnesses left.

In my opinion two of them are questionable.

Which leaves Catriona as the ONE 'positive confirmation' of Madeleine alive.

As long as her statements stand up to scrutiny......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Confirmed 'sightings' of Madeleine now rely on 3 witness statements

1) - Catriona Baker
3) - Charlotte Pennington
5) - Emma Wilding -

I have to go out now, but here are two of them Charlotte Pennington and Emma Wilding.

See Charlotte Pennington info on a thread in this 'Creche' category.
<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Creche ... ne-1-68648<!-- m -->

Do their statements stand up to scrutiny about seeing Madeleine on Thursday or another day during the holiday?

Quote:
3) - Charlotte Pennington <!-- l -->post1455.html#p1455<!-- l -->

• Has been in Portugal since April 28th, the day upon which she began working for the Ocean Club tourist Complex in Luz, Lagos, and where she is employed as a child educator. Her work contract was completed in the U.K. with MarkWarner;
• The witness clarifies that between the 19th of April and the 04th of May 2007 she worked with a group of children staying in the aforementioned complex between the ages of 4 months and one year of age (the Baby Club);
• The witness further clarifies that the BabyClub group was divided in three sub-groups, with each group composed of two babies, so that each group had a different infant educator allocated to it;
• With relation to the facts of the investigation, the witness states that in the course of her work, she came across Madeleine McCann many times, explaining that, even though she [Madeleine] did not belong to her [Pennington’s] group, this was normal, as the physical space where the children groups are located is contiguous;
• The witness clarifies that Madeleine was registered with the ‘MiniClub’, a group with children between 3 and 4 years of age. The principal space where the children from MiniClub and BabyClub are situated is in the same building as the Ocean Club complex reception and this is why the witness had personal contact with the identified child. However, she clarifies that it was normal during “siesta”-- understood to be between the hours of 09H00 and 10H30 and 14H30 and 15H00, at the exact time that children are brought into the crèche by their parents—when the children under her guard are asleep, that she would participate with the children and the activities in the MiniClub;
• Witness states that on two different days, Sunday, 29th of April 2007, and on Thursday, 03rd of May 2007, she had direct contact with Madeleine McCann, telling her stories and speaking with her.
• Witness states that as she was an intelligent child, timid at first contact, and who later felt more comfortable, was a child who conversed normally for her age, and was of a calm demeanour. She adds that it was usual for Madeleine to be called “Maddy”, as this is how she [Madeleine] presented herself to the witness;




- told MBM stories and talked to her on 3rd May - Credibility of witness not confirmed (Claims to have seen the twins in their cot and yet early statement says she did not enter apartment.)

She arrived April 28th and on the first day of working with the babies, she leaves them asleep and reads to Maddie?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
5) - Emma Wilding - <!-- l -->post1458.html#p1458<!-- l -->

When questioned she states that she knows Madelede’s (sic) parents because although Madeleine is not in her group, she frequently speaks to her parents, and finds their concerns and interests normal and typical of parents.

When questioned she states that there are parents that leave their respective children during the whole day and every day at the clubs, and that this is normal within British culture. With respect to Madeleine, she states that she spent most of her time at the Mini Club. The children began arriving at 0900 until 1230 when their respective parents collected them for lunch, and returned at 1430 until 1645 when the Infants’ teachers took the children to eat something appropriate for their age at the Tapas restaurant. Most of the parents met their respective children here, and the children then remained in their parents’ care.

When questioned she states that on May 3, 2007 it was the father that took Madeleine, as was customary, between 0900 and 0930; she remembers that she just said “hello” to him, because as Madelede (sic) did not belong to her group she did not talk to him very much.

She only noticed Madeleine and not her father,(?) and nothing seemed abnormal or unusual.

She is not sure whether during the morning Madeleine’s group had outdoor activities, mainly at the pool;( MINI SAIL?) she does remember that around 1230 Madelew’s (sic) father went to fetch her for lunch.

When questioned, she states that on Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine’s group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group or not, and does not remember having seen anybody specifically taking direct and close-up photographs of the children.

She remembers that during the afternoon of May 3 Madeleine was at the Mini Club, but she does not remember at what time she arrived, and if on that day Madeleine accompanied the other children at 1645 as was customary.

She is also not sure whether her parents joined her during the snack, as was customary.

During this period of time she did not notice anybody or anything out of the ordinary, as her attention was wholly focused on the children.

That night, at around 2200 she learned that Madeleine had disappeared, and together with her colleagues she helped look for her.

As regards Madeleine, she did not spent much time with her because she was not in her group; she did not know her well, but Madeleine appeared to be somewhat shy, this was noticeable the first days. Since she met her, she noticed nothing abnormal in any aspect that would point to Madeleine being a child that was out of the ordinary.




She only noticed Madeleine and not her father, and nothing seemed abnormal or unusual. ?

she does remember that around 1230 Madelew’s (sic) father went to fetch her for lunch. (Kate went with Fiona to pick her up)

When questioned, she states that on Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine’s group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group or not, (Olympics Grass time coloured beige on Activity sheet but no 'beach trip shown)

Was Emma mistaken about the trip to the beach on Wednesday Who accompanied Catriona on the mini sail?

Did they go on Thursday as the creche activity sheet suggested because of rain on Wednesday?

Why did she not remember seeing Madeleine?

Too many children or was Madeleine missing from the group?

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Re:BEFORE 5.30pm Thursday or AFTER - Opinion HiDeHo

Date Posted:12/19/2010 5:56 PMCopy HTML

Just to add...There is one credible statement where Madeleine WAS seen during the holiday as described in the statement of the cleaner's daughter......

Quote:
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post184.html#p184
Processos Vol III

Pages 675 - 678


Witness statement

Taken by officer José Luís, Inspector

Date : 2007: 05: 08

Name: Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada

Profession: Cleaner

Place of work: Luz Ocean Club

She has worked at the Ocean Club for approximately eleven years. She is a permanent employee of the Club and works all year round. She has a day and a half off a week. She has fixed working hours from 10.00 AM to 18.00 with a break for lunch from 13.30 to 18.00 and remains at the club during this time or goes to attend to personal matters near to the Club. She has a fixed day off on Tuesdays and had a day off on May 1st (national holiday) as well Sunday afternoon 29th April.

When asked how her work was organised in the club, specifically in the cleaning areas where she worked, she said there are norms pre-defining the areas where each employee worked, with the aim of delivering an efficient service. This principle does not imply that in times of work overload for any colleague, that they could not help out even in areas that were not allocated to them. She knows because she has heard that the missing English girl was staying in block 5 apartment A, which is referred to as 5ª out of habit. This apartment is situated in a zone that was not allocated to her, but to a colleague, in this case her mother María Julía Silva.

She knows that the little girl disappeared on the night of 3rd May and is sure that she only heard about this on the following morning when she arrived at work, as it was the only subject being talked about.

She had the opportunity to observe the photos of Madeleine that were being circulated everywhere and has no hesitation in confirming that she saw the child before her disappearance in the company of her siblings and mother and father, although in the latter case she only observed him from a distance.

She states that this took place on Sunday 29th April, just before she finished her morning work shift (13.30) as she had the afternoon off that day. At about 13.15 she went to help her mother, who was cleaning apartment I of the same block (5) situated on the first floor. She clearly remembers seeing the girl accompanied by her siblings and mother leave their apartment (5 A) and walk to the stairs leading to the floor above. She was very close to them at a distance of about 1 metre, observing their movements for a few moments because she was charmed by them. Madeleine led the way with a plate (perhaps plastic) in her hand bearing a piece of bread. As regards the clothes she was wearing she only remembers a skirt but cannot recall its description. She noted, because she thought them nice, the type of shoes she was wearing, tennis shoes, light in colour she thinks, which had little lights along the soles, which lit up each time she stepped on the ground. Her siblings followed behind her, wearing the same king of shoes and each holding a piece of bread in their hands, their mother followed behind them without holding their hands. She seems to remember that the mother was also carrying a plate. Moments afterwards, perhaps the time it took to close the apartment door, the father came out and also headed to the apartment upstairs. When asked, she does not remember whether the father pulled the door closed or locked it with a key.

After she chatted to her mother about there being many children in the apartments, she had the idea that the family in 5H were friends of Madeleine’s family who were staying in 5 A.

She never cleaned any of these apartments referred to as they were allocated to her mother. Her mother never mentioned anything strange to her, either before or after the girl’s disappearance that could be related to the disappearance. The only comment she remembered concerned the clutter in the apartments, mainly clothing which was left all around the place.
She thinks that her mother cleaned the apartments in that block on Monday and Wednesday (02-05).

When asked if she observed anything in the apartments where she cleaned that indicated a person particularly interested in children, such as objects, photos, videos or anything else, she replies no. She has no knowledge of any fact that could contribute to discover Madeleine’s whereabouts and pledges to contact the authorities if anything should happen.

No more is said. She reads the statement and finds it in conformity, ratifies it and signs it together with me, the officer who drew up the statement.


I do not see anything in this statement that would suggest she was mistaken. She recognised the picture because she was able to associate Madeleine to the correct apartment (although similar to many of us may have wondered why the pic was of a younger Madeleine)

Sadly, this statement does not confirm Madeleine alive during the week...

It confirms (so far and in my opinion) that Madeleine was seen on Sunday April 29th lunchtime.

(Unless Catriona's statement stands up to the scrutiny)

As an aside to this, she claims her mother told her of the clutter she found in the apartment, mainly clothes. Where was all the clutter on Thursday evening?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

harmony wrote:
HiDeHo wrote:
She only noticed Madeleine and not her father, and nothing seemed abnormal or unusual. ?

HiDeHo please check the original portuguese
<!-- m -->http://gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/P2/02_VO ... ge_375.jpg<!-- m -->
If you bothered to do so you would find your quote is wrong, and what is printed in the case files in portuguese is
"... reparou na Madeleine e no seu pai ..."
"She only noticed Madeleine and her father, and nothing seemed abnormal or unusual"
So what EW said makes perfect sense.
Ask any translator you will find your quote is the opposite of what she said.


thanks for that harmony.

that quote comes from the original translated statement which I copied to Madeleine forum...I see some are getting updated and appreciate it being brought to my attention.
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Re:BEFORE 5.30pm Thursday or AFTER - Opinion HiDeHo

Date Posted:12/19/2010 6:00 PMCopy HTML

Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:17 pm 

Another 'witness' (not in police files) is the Boyd family that claimed to have sat next to Kate while Gerry was playing tennis and Madeleine was using the waterslide....on thursday.

I found the article thanks to Pamalam (newsprint only...I retyped it but have no idea where it is...sorry)
<!-- m -->http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/pres ... -05-07.htm<!-- m -->







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Re:BEFORE 5.30pm Thursday or AFTER - Opinion HiDeHo

Date Posted:12/19/2010 6:06 PMCopy HTML

Apart from strange 'issues' like the waterslide and not mentioning the twins, Gerry only played tennis (according to their statements) 10.15am-11.15am and in the afternoon AFTER they had dropped the children off at the creche (3.00pm) and he was playing with Kate as they arranged a last minute lesson.

The only time the Boyds could have spent time at the pool with them, would have been after lunch when the last picture was 'taken' and according to that Gerry was there!

Wednesday it was raining.

More discrepancies but in my opinion, not worth scrutinising.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How can Charlotte's statement of being with them at high tea be credible if on the Dispaches program she claims lunchtime was the last time she saw them.

Regardless if 'lunchtime' was confused with high tea there are to many other discrepancies to consider her statement confirmation of Madeleine being seen on May 3rd.

-------------------------------------------------

I will make a summary of how each witness that 'supposedly' saw Madeleine during the holiday cannot be used as confirmation of Madeleine actually WAS there.

This is a VERY controversial issue that I welcome any dispute to the discrepancies I have found.

No longer will anyone be able to claim that it is CONFIRMED that witnesses SAW Madeleine during the holiday.

(apart from Catriona and Emma Wilding as I have not yet scrutinised their statements for confirmation)

These discrepancies do not mean that Madeleine was not there, as I have explained before, it points out that each statement does not CONFIRM she was there and that is a very important difference .

We are now left with ONLY 2 statements that may confirm that Madeleine was seen.

1) - Catriona Baker
5) - Emma Wilding -

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

harmony wrote:
aacg wrote:
... neither K nor G remembering Madeleine sailed in the morning....

Quote:
Sailing (beach)

<!-- m -->http://www.mccannfiles.com/id166.html<!-- m -->

Thursday 03.05.2007 - The day of the disappearance

Breakfast - Apartment
Comment Madeleine "Where were you (was I) when me and S cried?"
Kids club, time - check registration
09.00-09.30 → 12:30
Sailing (beach)
Wash M top of pyjamas - big stain
Lunch? apartment? tea
Tennis lesson 09.15-10.15
conversation on the grass w / Russell and Nigel (the video camera)
[?] Minutes of tennis
K
? get Madeleine
J and Fiona (Scarlett)
Then pick up S and A
(? Meeting there with G)
Breakfast - apartment -? balcony
? recreational area - ok
Afternoon / Kids club - a bit later
K Ella already there
Swimming - indoors pool
K and G - practice tennis then lesson and coach Dan
15.30 - 16.30
Julian appeared - continued to play with Gerry
I went to run → beach
(rest of the group on the beach)
Gerry went to meet the kids for high tea at Tapas. I joined them after running.
+ / - 17.20-17.30
[Strikethrough text illegible]
M very tired and quiet
Since Ella was taken from the KC → beach. I was a little worried that she was sad to have been alone. (Not realised that the group had gone to the beach.)
She said she was fine.
She asked me to pick her up and said she was tired.
I picked her up and carried her to the apartment with G and S and A
Prepared bath as kids tired and men's tennis night at 18.00.
I considered returning to the recreation area with the kids but decided to stay in the apartment after bath and hair wash.

G men's tennis night
B pyjamas
Biscuits and milk for the kids - left them with this and books and games and went to take a quick bath / wash my hair.
I got out of the bath and David was knocking on the patio doors.
I wrapped myself in a towel and went into the living room.
He asked if we wanted to go to the recreational area, since he could help me take the kids.
Refused - since kids ready for bed.
I dressed myself.
Ate some snacks with the kids
M tired - sitting on my lap - read story of MOG
Brush teeth
To bedroom with kids
G there too - I think.
[Children's music] - M telling story
M removes and lowers head on pillow

S + A good-night kisses for M
From S and A → cots x2
K gave a good-night kiss to M
Leaned the door as much as possible without closing it.
Silence
? dry hair
Make-up
Glass of wine
20:35 → rest. First to arrive
21:00 → G, Conversation with Steve
21:30 → Matt, Carolyn (Note: Carolyn is a witness who says she heard someone calling Madeleine's name, around 21:30, as she walked back to her apartment)
22:00 → Myself, 20:40 Jane next
20:45 Matt and Rachael
Russell?
Detained
Evie feeling sick
R went for a long time
Jane replaced him

[Three pages with drawings]


I am a little concerned..

I have listed ALL of the statements (that I can find) from witnesses who claim to have seen Madeleine during the week they were on holiday.

Some of us believe that Madeleine may have died earlier in the week.

Maybe we are correct, maybe we are wrong.

What is very important to establish is whether, without doubt, Madeleine was seen during the week, especially on Thursday May 3rd but earlier in the week also.

I have taken every statement available that claim to have seen Madeleine and scrutinised' it to ensure that what they said was correct and could confirm Madeleine was seen and, therefore, alive.

If I had seen this statement by the cleaner's daughter and her afternoon off was Thursday (instead of Sunday) I would stand back and consider that I had been wrong. This witness is very credible.

Trouble is....she is referring to Sunday afternoon, which is not really in question.

It confirms to me that Madeleine was seen on Sunday lunchtime and she was there.

Confirmed (in my opinion...)

Quote:
10) -Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada (Cleaner) - <!-- l -->post184.html#p184<!-- l -->

She states that this took place on Sunday 29th April, just before she finished her morning work shift (13.30) as she had the afternoon off that day. At about 13.15 she went to help her mother, who was cleaning apartment I of the same block (5) situated on the first floor. She clearly remembers seeing the girl accompanied by her siblings and mother leave their apartment (5 A) and walk to the stairs leading to the floor above. She was very close to them at a distance of about 1 metre, observing their movements for a few moments because she was charmed by them. Madeleine led the way with a plate (perhaps plastic) in her hand bearing a piece of bread. As regards the clothes she was wearing she only remembers a skirt but cannot recall its description. She noted, because she thought them nice, the type of shoes she was wearing, tennis shoes, light in colour she thinks, which had little lights along the soles, which lit up each time she stepped on the ground. Her siblings followed behind her, wearing the same king of shoes and each holding a piece of bread in their hands, their mother followed behind them without holding their hands. She seems to remember that the mother was also carrying a plate. Moments afterwards, perhaps the time it took to close the apartment door, the father came out and also headed to the apartment upstairs. When asked, she does not remember whether the father pulled the door closed or locked it with a key.

After she chatted to her mother about there being many children in the apartments, she had the idea that the family in 5H were friends of Madeleine’s family who were staying in 5 A.

She never cleaned any of these apartments referred to as they were allocated to her mother. Her mother never mentioned anything strange to her, either before or after the girl’s disappearance that could be related to the disappearance. The only comment she remembered concerned the clutter in the apartments, mainly clothing which was left all around the place. She thinks that her mother cleaned the apartments in that block on Monday and Wednesday (02-05).


What we are left with are several statements, some very obviously mistaken about the child they saw being Madeleine. (as with Maria who saw Madeleine going to the creche every day next to the tapes but Madeleine's creche was 10 minutes away)

So far, in my opinion, none of the other statements have the same credibility as this one by Fatima.


So...where we stand right now is this....

SUMMARY

Credible sighting of Madeleine Sunday April 29th lunchtime.
10) -Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada
(5A Cleaner's daughter) -

Possible/probable mistaken identity.
2) - Cecilia Dias Firmino -
Receptionist at Millenium and 'saw' Madeleline and her parents on days they were not there.
7) - Jeronimo Salcedes - Tapas Barman
Could not say with certainty whether he saw Madeleine.
8) - Maria M A Jose - Tapas Cook
Claims she saw Madeleine when she attended the creche next to the tapas but Madeleine went to the creche 10 minutes away.
11) - Luisa Ana de Noronha de Azevedo Coutinho ( Receptionist)
Saw 'Madeleine' when ROB booked the tapas but may have been mistaken as Ella and Madeleine are similar as can be seen in pics here..
<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Discre ... 80252.html<!-- m -->

and here...

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/The-Ho ... 75595.html<!-- m -->

Bookings were made in the morning and Ella did not attend creche that day so may have been with her father.

Bridget O'Donnell
'All pink and pretty'. It was not the Lobsters mini tennis that she describes. Madeleine played another day.
Miguel Matias
Saw Madeleine dancing with her daddy at the Paraiso but CCTV footage proves he was incorrect and mistakenly thought another tapas child was Madeleine.

Non Specific comments that do not (imo) confirm Madeleine's presence:-

Jeremy (Jes/Jez) Wilkins
Stephen Carpenter
Daniel Stuk


Statements that 'allude' to seeing Madeleine but not specific:
6) - Georgina Jackson
: 'it being that the child also had a class' 'she was among a group of children'

Does that statement CONFIRM that Madeleine was there, she remembers her specifically, or is it only that she presumes she was there because of the records?

4) - Elisa Dias Romao - <!-- l -->post11634.html#p11634<!-- l -->
I see nothing in her statement that says she 'saw' Madeleine. Only referring to the 'twins' and 'children'.
'She does not know if the three McCann children were together given their different ages'

9) - Paula Cristina da Costa Vieira (Cleaning Staff- Millenium)
<!-- l -->post230.html#p230<!-- l -->

I cannot see anything in Paula Cristina da Costa Vieira statement that would CONFIRM she saw Madeleine. (although she may be referring to Sunday morning which is not an issue)

'When she saw her photograph, and saw the images of the parents, she did remember having seen them, about two times—the child in question and her family when they were leaving the Millenium Club breakfast (around 9h30/10H00) and only because this was her time to the clean the reception of the establishment'

Credibility of witness recall.

3) - Charlotte Pennington
<!-- l -->post1455.html#p1455<!-- l -->
Rather than spend time scrutinising Charlotte's statement I will refer you to a very good article written by Nigel at mccannfiles in January 2008 quoting the many discrepancies from her statement and comments in

Comments highlighted here for easier reading..
<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Creche ... 80024.html<!-- m -->

Quote:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id70.html
A closer look at Charlotte Pennington
Nigel Moore
31 January 2008In a case that has become characterised by the frustratingly unsatisfactory quotes of unnamed friends and sources, Ms Pennington has afforded us the rare luxury of being able to listen to her own words from her own mouth - at least until the Dispatches documentary 'Searching for Madeleine' was removed from YouTube and Channel 4's own 4oD service.

(...)

The Daily Mail published details of an interview with Miss Pennington on 25 September 2007, in which she dismissed claims that the McCanns were not seen for six hours leading up to Madeleine's disappearance.
She said: "I was helping give the children high tea. The twins were there and Madeleine and both parents.

"It was supposed to finish at 5.30pm but because they were a big group and really social, it didn't finish until about 6pm. There was nothing out of the ordinary at all."

However, speaking on the Channel 4 Dispatches documentary 'Searching For Madeleine', aired on 18 October 2007, she says:

"On May the third, it was just Madeleine I was reading a story to. I later saw them around lunchtime. That's the last time I saw them together as a family."

So, which is true? Did she last see Madeleine and the McCanns at 6.00pm or at lunchtime? And why the discrepancy?


We are now left with two witnesses that claim to have seen Madeleine during the week April 29-May 3rd

1) - Catriona Baker
5) - Emma Wilding

In reading their statements, can it be established that the child they saw was, without question, Madeleine and that the consistency of their statements and their credibility regarding their memory (regarding confused days), agenda and possible intimidation from TM and M3, stand up to scrutiny.

Do their statements provide PROOF (similar to that of Fatima's statement above) that Madeleine was seen up to and until Thursday?

If so, then those of us that, for different reasons, believe something happened to Madeleine prior to May 3rd at 5.30pm will have to take a step back and accept that Madeleine WAS seen and was therefore alive until Thursday night.

If, however, the remaining two statements reveal that there is a possibility that they were mistaken (or any of the above scenarios) then it CANNOT be claimed without question that Madeleine was alive and the possibility of something happening earlier is impossible.

What concerns me is that I was hoping for the scrutiny of the existing summary to be disputed.

So far, I do not see any of the 'results' being questioned.

Is this because everyone agrees that they are NOT PROOF of Madeleine been seen or are they being ignored to allow for later claims of 'Madeleine was seen alive up to and including Thursday May 3rd'?

I was hoping, as shown by the effort involved, to establish one way or the other.

Do the witness statements (so far) PROVE (reasonably - in a similar way to Fatima's statement above) that Madeleine WAS seen alive until 5.30pm Thursday or was the last confirmed sighting of her Sunday April 29th at lunchtime?

This is not to prove Madeleine was not seen, just to show there is no real proof (so far) that she WAS SEEN!

Reference all the statements on Page 13 of this thread
<!-- l -->topic9355-120.html<!-- l -->



As with Georgina, and, maybe the two statements I have yet to check in detail, what I am finding is not to say their statements may not have been correct and true, only that they are not (reasonable) proof that she was seen.

I don't think its possible to look at Georgina's statement and know for sure, without question that she DID see her.

She had a half hour tennis lesson with a few children. Catriona was in charge of them.

Would she have known all their names or would she give them all tennis rackets and ball and let them play and have fun?

Does she remember Madeleine specifically? Although she claims that the tennis group included Madeleine she does not specifically say she was there.

Maybe she was, but Georgina may just be referring to the records and, therefore, in my opinion, Georgina is a credible witness but her statement does not prove to me, without question, that Madeleine played tennis.

Opinions can rely on assumptions and that may indicate the possibility that Madeleine WAS there (as she may well have been) but I am scrutinising the statements for some kind of reasonable proof and I am not finding it.

I'm not looking to prove she WASN'T there, I'm looking for proof that SHE WAS.

Big difference.



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Re:BEFORE 5.30pm Thursday or AFTER - Opinion HiDeHo

Date Posted:12/19/2010 6:20 PMCopy HTML

This is the point of my effort, to find out if there is reasonable proof that she was alive Thursday evening.

If there were more witness statements similar to Fatima's dated later in the week then that, in my opinion, would void discussion about whether something happened prior to when the last credible witness saw her.

I can't talk for others, but I know that I would not put time and effort into looking at the discrepancies as a cover up for her death (or whatever happened to her) earlier in the week.

The discrepancies are, certainly, in my opinion, suspect for some reason, but that would be another discussion.

However, when I look at each and every statement and see there is an element of doubt then that leaves the possibility open for a questionable earlier timeline.

If every statement shows doubt, then it is not possible to state she WAS seen and that all other other possibilites of her dying earlier are impossible.

We just don't know either way, and every 'theory' should be justified for discussion.

A plethora of witnesses seeing Madeleine up to and including 5.30pm WITHOUT (reasonable) DOUBT, so far does not exist, that I can see.

Maybe Emma Wilding and Catriona Baker's statements will prove she was seen.


Thanks for that Abuela, I have always presumed the sheets were changed but maybe they weren't, an example of how easy it is to take things for granted.

While on the subject of the cleaner, Fatima, the cleaner's daughter commented about her mother telling her of the clutter in the apartment.


Quote:
10) -Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada (Cleaner) - <!-- l -->post184.html#p184<!-- l -->
She never cleaned any of these apartments referred to as they were allocated to her mother. Her mother never mentioned anything strange to her, either before or after the girl’s disappearance that could be related to the disappearance. The only comment she remembered concerned the clutter in the apartments, mainly clothing which was left all around the place. She thinks that her mother cleaned the apartments in that block on Monday and Wednesday (02-05).


From what I see in the photos, there was nothing extraordinary to warrant making a comment.

Maybe what we are seeing in the photos is the cleaned up version, after the floor under the sofa etc had been cleaned and specific items left out to make it appear 'lived' in.

Did they arrange Maddie's clothes on the closet door and back of the chair, to appear she was there that day?

Did they lay out specific clothes to indicate what they wanted police to see what they had recently worn?

I do not see that apartment as cluttered enough to warrant a comment from the mother.

I am still curious about the item with the tea stain left to dry on the stand on the balcony (maybe).

What was 'behind' that comment apart from to place Madeleine alive on Thursday.

Other comments etc. that were contrived (too much information) to 'show' she was alive on Thursday. (or other days)

1) Carefully removing bead from hair.
2) 'Tired' Madeleine asked to be carried by Kate back to the apartment.

Quote:
Kate Sept 6th statement
During the meal Kate asked Madeleine if she was sad because the other children in the group had gone to the beach without her; she replied that she wasn’t, but was rather tired. She asked Kate to carry her back to the apartment. Kate agreed, and Gerry led the twins back to the apartment, as well. Tiredness was due to the intense daily activities, not to any sickness.
.
NOTE: in the same statement..
Quote:
they went to the recreation area next to the pool, as the children were somewhat restless, maybe tired and bored.


3) Washing tea stain.

Quote:
Kates September 6th statement
She noticed a stain, supposedly of tea, on Madeleine’s pyjama top, which she washed a little later that same morning. She hung it out to dry on a small stand, and it was dry by the afternoon. Madeleine sometimes drank tea; nevertheless the stain did not appear during breakfast, maybe it happened another day, as Madeleine did not have tea the previous night and the stain was dry.


4) 'Healthy' children comments from DP
5) Gerry's description of her when he saw her in bed (to find)
6) 'Best day ever' comment.
7) Last photo
8) Madeleine's 'crying' comment all different descriptions (not something you would forget when recalling that moment, but if contrived would be easy to forget)
<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/T9-Ear ... 06700.html<!-- m -->

Gerry 4th of May 2007 Statement
on the morning of May 3rd, MADELEINE asked her father GERALD,, why he had not come into her bedroom when the twins were crying

Gerry 10th of May 2007 Statement
When they were having breakfast, MADELEINE addressed her mother and asked her “why didn't you come last night when SEAN and I were crying?”

Kates May 4th Statement
Madeleine asked the witness why she had not come to look in the bedroom when the twins were crying.
Kates September 6th Statement
Madeleine said to both of them that she had been crying


9) '5' ice cream comment when they went to the beach on Tuesday.
10) Signing register. Catriona does not recall who signed the register for lunchtime pick up and drop off, Gerry does not recall either as he claims HE picked up Madeleine for lunch but Kate claims SHE picked up Madeleine when she walked over with Fiona (records show KM 12.25) and Catriona does not recall seeing Gerry at high tea, claiming she believes he was playing tennis. Both Kate and Gerry say he was there.

Many discrepancies regarding creche details during the day on Thursday.

Quote:
Gerry May 10th statement
since it was obligatory, he signed the child's attendance register. (Thursday 09.15)

where they arrived at 14H50 and delivered MADELEINE, not being able to say precisely who signed the register. (Thurs pm)


Quote:
Kate Sept 6th
She signed the crèche's register (Thurs 12.25pm)

Her parents were required to sign the register when the meal was over, at around 5.30 p.m..(Thurs)


There are more contrived comments alluding to Madeleine being seen, which would not have been 'necessary' had something happened to her AFTER 5.30pm on Thursday .


Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:00 pm
After spending so much time accumulating some of the discrepancies I realised I had not focused on other threads eg the Smith Sighting.

Although I did not see a connection to the Smith sighting and something happening before 5.30pm, with the help of some of the members I was able to see there could be a link.

I am wondering if those members that focus on the Smith sighting can see a connection/link that something may have happened to madeleine prior to 5.30pm and that she may have died on may 3rd or the Smith sighting was a set up and she had died previously.



My interpretation is that the tall thin man was ROB who booked on Sunday morning for the tapas that night. He went with Ella and later, during her statement, Luisa thought it was Madeleine because of the likeness.

He may have asked for a weekly booking using 'checking the children' as leverage but Luisa may not have had authority to do any more than give them a booking for that night

They agreed Sunday night to try to book for the week.

The following morning, Rachael books and tries, successfully, to book for the week.

Tiago, the tapas supervisor is aware of her request and at that time she did not give any reason as the request may have been pending authorization from the day before.

------------------------------------------
The first 'table' I did was the Staff Rota and statement highlights for tapas and Millenium staff..
<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Staff- ... ts-1-65276<!-- m -->


Here is the tapas staff rota and highlighted statements..
<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Staff- ... 35812.html<!-- m -->


Quote:
Luisa Ana de Noronha de Azevedo Coutinho
Sunday 29th April one of the elements of the group arrived with the child Madeleine McCann, she does not know his name and can only say that he was male and tall and thin and that he approached her to request a booking for the whole group, for the whole week and always at 20.30.

When questioned, she confirms that the man was not the father of the girl but one of the members of the group whom was often seen in his company
The man justified his request by saying that the group had many small children whom they would leave alone when they went to dine. She said that at intervals some two parents would go to the apartments to see if everything was OK.

The deponent made some comments about the request, saying that the Tapas received many requests and that MW only had a quota of 20 per day, but upon the insistence of the guest she managed to make the bookings requested.
That the most viable solution would be to leave the children with a baby sitter, which is the procedure normally adopted by clients.

Regarding the question as to the availability of the baby sitting service between 19.30 and 23.30, she confirms that the service exists and that it is free of charge.

When questioned, she says that she does not understand, as the service is free, why the parents of Madeleine McCann did not use it.


Quote:
Tiago Rochas Barreiros
Tapas Supervisor (Hours are defined by need)
he became aware of the situation that occurred at the OC with respect to the disappearance of a child when he arrived at the Tapas around 22H00/22H30. He was immediately informed at arriving by work colleagues.

That after finding out what happened he immediately proceeded to join some searches next to the pool and the apartment zone around the resort. He stayed in the OC until around 01H30 when he left with his girlfriend.

That he knows the family of the missing child as they were clients of the Tapas restaurant which they began frequenting the 2nd day of their arrival to the OC.

From the very beginning, a request was made to the restaurant workers to reserve a table for 20H30 until the end of the week. The request was made for a specific table given the number in the group—nine people. This group would dine daily and always arrive around 20H30. They would leave the restaurant around 00H30.

This group (who would dine at the time previously mentioned) was always made up of nine adults, constituted by eight couples (I think this is an error in the document, it says ‘oito casais’ or eight couples and should probably read four couples or quarto casais) and an older woman. He believed that this older woman was the grandmother of the missing child. He never saw any children accompanying the nine people.

When the table was reserved, nothing was mentioned about checking on the children and the only concern was in accommodating the entire group

That effectively he did know the missing child’s family due to the circumstances previously mentioned, but had not entered their [prior] residence. He goes daily to the family’s apartment in order to bring them lunch.

That every day around 13H00, he heads to no. 4-G (where the family of the missing child is staying) and to no. 4-1 (where 10 people are lodged) to deliver lunch. He repeats this routine at 20H00 to take them dinner.

That the payment for alcohol, not included in the vacation package, was paid by (service) card. This payment was made by random members of the group of nine.

According to what he remembers, the missing child’s family frequented the Tapas pool where they would take their children. They would stay in the children’s play area in the period between 16H45 and 17H30, at the time when babysitters would take care of the children. The babysitters are employees of Mark Warner.

That he never noticed any walkie talkies or other sound devices on top of the table occupied by the group. He only noticed that occasionally one of the nine present would get up from the table and leave for a few minutes. He did not know where they went.

That generally, it was always the same people that dined in the Tapas and who were registered for dinner. A list of all the people who dined at the Tapas from the arrival of the missing child’s family to 2007.05.04 has been handed over to the investigation



<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/<!-- m -->

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16805.html<!-- m -->
Quote:
Rachael
Sunday night had worked well with us sort of eating dinner as adults and you know just going back to check on the children, erm that, but at the Tapas, they said they, you could only book in the morning, you couldn’t kind of block book or anything like that, you had to kind of call them at you know, eight or nine o’clock and say that you wanted a table for that night, erm and because we were a big group of nine, erm I begged and pleaded with them to let us book for the whole week, a table at eight thirty every night, erm”.
00.36.51 1578 “When did you do that”?
Reply “Because otherwise”.
1578 “No sorry, when”?
Reply “Oh when, that was on the Monday morning,


<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16802.html<!-- m -->
Quote:
Matthew Oldfield
the first time thay made a reservation was on Sunday, not knowing who had made it. Asked if it could have been ROB the deponent admitted that that was possible, reiterating to not know for sure who had made it.



<!-- l -->topic44.html<!-- l -->
Quote:
ROB
I’m aware that Rachael asked to eat there each night for the remainder of our stay’, erm, that’s correct, but I think it’s worth pointing out that that booking was probably made on the Monday. So we made one-off booking to eat at the Tapas on the Sunday, as I say, I think that was Rachael. Erm, but I might be confusing it with the, the next day, where there were only a certain number of us around and I think Rachael made, asked, was asking if there was a block booking and I can certainly remember being stood, erm, around, there was a number of the group, erm, with her at the time, but I think it was Rachael that asked”.
00.22.48 1578 “So Rachael asked for the block booking on the Monday?”



 was suggesting that in retrospect, after the abduction she recalled the child and thought it may have been Madeleine she saw because of the likeness to Ella.






Goncalo Amaral interview
Quote:
JP: It sounds so unbelievable, the possibility that a body was placed on a cliff, or in any other area on the beach, and then removed and transported in a rental car.

GA: The corpse couldn’t have remained there all the time. It’s impossible.

JP: So where was it taken next?

GA: If we take into account that, if we consider the traces that were found in the car boot…

JP: … which are in fact…

GA: … which are in fact from the little girl. In order to justify that bodily fluid as the lab says, it could only have been preserved and conserved in the cold because otherwise it would have been…

JP: That means that…

GA: … in an advanced state of decomposition, at least it’s a hypothesis. Therefore it’s a question of a deep freezer, or something similar, and there we had to search for it and that was what we were doing. This means, the contacts that they had, where they went, where they were seen… There are people who say that they were seen entering an apartment block near the cemetery in Praia da Luz. At that point in time we weren’t able to detect which apartment they entered, who lived there, because it’s also a bit complicated because you have to understand it’s a tourist area and often it’s not known who the apartment belongs to.

JP: Of course, of course…

GA: Who lives there, for how long they live there, so all of that was being worked upon. To try to understand the support…

JP: If someone discovered a deep freezer in the area and…

GA: If it was actually a deep freezer, it doesn’t exist anymore now.

more....


<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Goncal ... 01692.html



I believe the sighting by Fatima the cleaners' daughter to be the ONLY credible sighting that stands up to scrutiny, throughout the holiday...

When do I think something happened to madeleine?

I was, once again going to list all the reasons but they are there on the OP and not one of the reasons has yet been explained that I recall.

There are many, many discrepancies that started on Tuesday, maybe monday, and until someone can explain them, I am of firm belief they exist because someone was trying to cover up something.

I don't know what and no-one knows, but until there is some explanation offered then it tells me that something was amiss early in the week.

madeleine died, so I tend to put two and two together...

I see no other explanation...but I have always been open to suggestions.

As I recall, very few discrepancies, (earlier than 5.30pm) have elicited reaction one way or another.

I can only presume they are on 'ignore' because when I see each of the T9 contradicting themselves without credible explanation I see the biggest red flag telling me they were hiding the truth.

Maybe I am one of a few, but the 'facts' of their contradictions are there..

Someone is not telling the truth and there was a reason....


Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:25 am 


I can only presume they are on 'ignore' because when I see each of the T9 contradicting themselves without credible explanation I see the biggest red flag telling me they were hiding the truth.


Do you mean because of the construction of the sentence or why I see a red flag when I see contradictions?

As you know, I like to be challenged. It gives me the opportunity of revisiting my opinions/theories etc to see if they stand up to scrutiny.

With the volume and confusion in the statements its very easy to miss details important to confirm or dispute issues that appear to be a discrepancy.

One of the major things I have found is that each issue is revisited in the Rogatories, sometimes more than once. Its very easy to glean the info from the first comment and not continue searching the rest of the statement.

I haven't yet compiled the Rogatory tables for most of the T7 (only Rachael) so I do not yet have a full imprint in my mind for the others.

Thanks to your questioning me, and feeling that you were asking me to provide actual contradictions, I was able to see that I had missed a comment by Jane regarding the mini tennis /mini sail contradiction.

They were both held at the same time 10.30-11am Jane claimed being at the beach with ROB and seeing Madeleine, ROB claims they were both at mini tennis.

After re-reading Jane's Rogatory statement I see that further down the page she mentions doing both.

They saw the beginning of the tennis lesson and then walked to the beach.

ROB does not mention seeing Madeleine at the sailing (which one would think he would considering Jane was taking pictures of Ella not Madeleine) but it no longer constitutes a contradiction and that is important.

I was mistaken and I can put that contradiction aside.

That is why it is so important to challenge and discuss.

If my theories cannot stand up to scrutiny then I do not wish to spend time on them.

If they do stand up to scrutiny then, maybe they are an important consideration regarding what happened to Madeleine.

I do not need to be 'right'.....I need to know the truth




Apparently there was one day when they joined the others for lunch. I think Fiona said it was Sunday or Monday.

The cleaners sighting seems to confirm it was Sunday.

After reading all the Rogatories I realised my impression of them all getting together for lunch at the Paynes every day, was incorrect.

Thursday, Matt and Rachael and Jane and ROB had lunch at their apartment (Matt seems confused about that thinking it was at the Paynes) but I think the lunchtime's together were sporadic.

Unless of course, there was a reason they wanted to confuse.

I have yet to make a timetable of the lunchtimes, it's been on the backburner for a while.

Ultimately it will give a better idea of what they all claim.

Once compiled, it may or may not show us anything.

I am not looking to try and see whether the confusion etc may have been part of a 'cover up' but if the resulting details allow for the scenario that K&G were spending time alone to deal with a 'situation' that may have happened, then I cannot disregard that it would not eliminate my 'prior to 5.30pm' belief.

Maybe what I am trying to say is that, as all the details come together, I look for the possibility of it negating what I believe may have happened and if each scenario does not stand up to that scrutiny it leaves the possibility of an earlier death possible.

I would love for each of the discrepancies to be challenged to see whether they leave a 'window' of possibility of prior death or not.

If the CCTV pics showed Madeleine at the Paraiso on Thursday then every one of the discrepancies (regarding an earlier death) would be impossible.

I haven't yet completed the scrutiny of Catriona and Emma Wilding, but whatever is contained in Catriona's statement will always be questionable because of her visit to Rothley and that she changed her original statement at the time of her Rogatories.

We don't know what she removed or added but she returned to the interview room 3 times so regardless of what some consider 'logic' about her being with Madeleine that day, there is a definite element of doubt (and because I do not believe Catriona was collaborating or involved, I think there was another explanation).

I am not looking to 'fit' my theory to confirm I am 'right'.

I am looking for a challenge to eliminate what I have found so I don't have to spend more time on it.


Do we know how many witnesses etc. were contacted by the Mccanns or members of their team including M3 etc?

Jez Wilkins, Martin Smith, Robert Murat...etc.

I seem to recall it was ALL the witnesses...maybe I am wrong but it is all a tad suspicious to me

Once a witness is contacted, it stands to reason that there will be questions about credibility. Not necessarily because the witnesses may 'lie' but they could be intimidated to not speak about what they know or be coerced into second guessing themselves.

Some were just frightened by it. The 'unidentified barman' apparently fled the country to avoid 'them'.

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Staff- ... ts-1-65276<!-- m -->



Although there are a few comment in the files, the vast majority of comments about 'witness approaching/tampering' would be in the media.

Not always in quotes, but, I think, worth taking into consideration.

Weren't there reports that M3 and Oakley were interviewing all the witnesses?

How would this have affected the witnesses in their eagerness to help the police?

<!-- l -->topic4287-140.html<!-- l -->
freudian slip wrote:
Midas wrote:
Don't be puzzled by BK. His main aim was to employ people to divert all information towards him. Photographs, sightings or anything else. He has even paid personal visits to people who thought they may have had useful information. He has also been quick to threaten to sue people who have mentioned him and his son on the internet. He has always been somebody at the top of our wish list, who needs to be closely questioned by the police. Along with many others. There were lots of sports people in PDL when Madeleine was allegedly abducted.

According to the 'Evening Standard' Mike Hollingsworth article, he frightened witnesses into not giving evidence. Interfering with witnesses is a serious crime in both Portugal and the U.K.

Why did he do it?

To stop them saying something incriminating?


<!-- l -->topic4287-140.html<!-- l -->
Quote:
He has been contacted by Mr Brian Kennedy who is supporting the McCann family to take part in a photo fit exercise. He has given no stories or helped in any photo fits. He sent a solicitor�s letter to six papers in relation material that was printed that was misquoted. The Evening Herald paid his solicitor's fees and all papers printed an apology. His photograph appeared in another tabloid paper and this matter is being pursued at the moment.

I do not believe that Martin Smith is courting the press and my view his is a genuine person. He is known locally and is a very decent person
.

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Staff- ... 37561.html<!-- m -->
Quote:
THE key witness in the missing Madeleine McCann case was in hiding last night after fleeing Portugal.

Police have sworn the waiter to secrecy over his vital testimony and know where he is. But friends say he is terrified his identity is about to be revealed and that he will come under pressure from rival factions in the case. He is scared of British and Portuguese government influence in the probe. Friends claim he is also wary of the team of private eyes hired by Kate and Gerry McCann to help find their daughter.


The mother of expat British estate agent Robert Murat ' the only other suspect in the case ' has accused investigators of bribing witnesses into changing their stories.


Surely lawyers would have advised Mccanns etc to avoid compromising their credibility or did they benefit more from approaching them?




I always found this comment from JT strange. Was she up at the Payne's babysitting' before the 'abduction'?

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16776.html<!-- m -->

Jane Tanner (turquoise at 10.00pm)
Quote:
just standing outside the, the door of the apartment mostly, I didn’t really move. trying to, you know, see what was happening. But, no, I was more or less at the bottom, as I say, at the bottom of the stairs, I’d come down”.


Jeanne d Arc wrote:
I spent so much time recently trying to wade through the lies of the Tapasniks that I was convinced they were all involved in the cover-up.But yesterday I thought to myself, what if one of them was not in the know? I could not pinpoint a lie told by Diane Webster so far. What if she was the only person telling the truth? It would give us a fixed point in the numerous lies regarding the story.

The Paraiso visit would make sense in that they had to distract her from the fact that Madeleine was not there that evening at the children's Tapas dinner and the subsequent playground session. She was the only one who was pretty sure when she had last seen Madeleine. At 17:00 on Wednesday evening. She told the police indirectly that the shutters were down when she tried to raise them. Her statements had to be buried in lots of confusing and differing statements, so that nobody would really know truth from lie.

She also stated categorically that Matthew did not pass them on his way to the listening check and also stated that she thought that maybe Gerry and Matt were not at the table when she arrived. She busted the myth of checks being done on other parent's children. IMO she was the only one telling the truth.


Thanks for that Jeanne..

A VERY good point about the Paraiso visit to distract from her (maybe)remembering not seeing Madeleline.

It would also have helped with the rest of the T7 not having to 'lie'. (they tended to confuse and roll over days rather than directly lie in their statements)

I have not scrutinised her statement regarding her last sighting of Madeleine but I agree with you that she had no knowledge. She kept herself to herself a lot of the time.

<!-- l -->post442.html#p442<!-- l -->
Quote:
Dianne Webster
PC: "When was the last time you saw Madeleine?”

DW: "(Sighs) You see I don’t remember seeing her on the Thursday because I didn’t go to the high tea, err but I was apparently in the play area afterwards but I can’t recall that.”

PC: "Okay.”

DW: "Err so from what I can recall, the last time I would have seen Madeleine would have been the Wednesday at the high tea probably.”



That is a very detailed and confusing timetable.

It is the sequence of events after 10 pm that night.

I allocated each of the T9 a colour so it is easier to see where each of them claimed the others were as well as themselves within a 15 minute time period.

All T9 are listed along the top and the times are listed in the left haNd column.

FP is lilac so if she mentions what DP is doing at a specific time I list it under his name at the specific timeslot but in her allocated colour.

It is the only way I could work through the confusion, but reading down each column for each person shows what they, and others say they were doing during each 15 minute period.

Discrepancies become apparent.

Maybe I am the only one who recognises the discrepancies as I am the only one who can read the tables! :s_biggrin

FP's statement I posted is in the right hand column under DW for 10pm timeslot (which can be seen in the left hand column)

Clear as mud eh? :s_biggrin

Fiona Paynes Rogatory that it was taken from is here...(just as difficult to decipher!)

<!-- l -->post459.html#p459<!-- l -->
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Re:BEFORE 5.30pm Thursday or AFTER - Opinion HiDeHo

Date Posted:12/19/2010 6:59 PMCopy HTML

I have found another witness statement claiming to have seen Madeleine

I am a little confused by the contradictions regarding the parents and wonder if ths could be a translation issue?

Sorry, c/p acting up again...so unable to highlight.

I will add her to the list starting on Page 13 of this thread

Quote:
Processos

Volume II

Pages 383 - 387


Kirsty Louise Maryan

Date/Time: 2007/05/07 14H30
Child Educator
British (translated by Robert Murat)

Concerning the issue of the process said;
. That she comes to the process as a witness;
. States that she does not know the Portuguese language and is accompanied by interpreter, Robert James Queriol Murat, translator;
. That she has been in Portugal since the 21st of March, the date in which she began work, of this year, in the establishment known as the Ocean Club, situated in Praia da Luz, in Lagos (Algarve) where she works as an infant educator in the aforementioned establishment, conforming to a work contract previously signed in London. Clarifies that, last year, she began her work in this establishment where she has worked from July to October. The deponent further clarifies that in the period between 21 May 2007 and 07 May 2007, she worked with children between the ages of 6 and 10, known as the ‘Junior’ group, which is made up of 7 children of both sexes;
. States that her hour of work is very flexible, rotating and coincides with the weekly plan of the children’s activities. Because she is asked, she clarifies that she had formal training in England, for two years, in order to exercise her child educator functions;
. The deponent further clarifies that the Junior group does not find itself subdivided from the other groups, in that, at this moment, there are not enough children that permit it;
. relative to the facts of the investigation the witness clarifies that in her daily schedule mentioned she only, on one occasion, had contact with Madeleine McCann, for about 30 minutes—who was treated as Maddie—in that she had to substitute for her colleague, who, at that time, was responsible for the group whose name is Emma, as she had to go to the Tapas to take care of the refreshments of Madeleine’s group. For this, the deponent had the charge of accompanying that group towards the beach until the MiniClub where they stayed for a few minutes, and from where they left for the restaurant, mentioned above, in order to have dinner. She clarifies that when Madeleine ate [color=#BF0000]her food, her parents were close and accompanied her; . Questioned, she states that Madeleine McCann related to the group of children “MiniClub” who are supervised by a colleague of hers, whose name is Amy, and who coordinates her workers, for who she only knows first names, Cat and Emma, employees who worked with the group during the week in question, from 29 April to 04 May, 2007;
. Questioned, she states that the minor in questions appeared to her a calm child, happy, but quiet. States that Maddie was a very pretty child, notwithstanding, she did not stick out for this fact. However, as she was calmer and shier that the others; she furthers that the same child, from what she saw, was a child who did stick out, precisely . Questioned, she furthers that she had no contact with [Maddie’s] parents; [/color]
. That on the 03 of May, 200, at around 22h30, after having left the apartment where she is living, close to the establishment mentioned, together with two more colleagues, also residents there, whose name are Leanne and Sarah, she found her colleague Amy. That during their discussion she was informed that Madeleine McCann had disappeared and that they were looking for her. For this reason, together with her colleagues, they also began searching for Madeleine McCann;
. That during the search she carried out, together with her colleagues (employees of the Ocean Club) others were also participating from the establishment ion question;
. Subsequently, she cannot precisely state the hours but indicates that at around midnight, she noticed that the locale also consisted of local authorities who were taking notice of the occurrence and initiating respective measures for this type of situation;
. Questioned, the deponent states that the searches made by elements of the Ocean Club terminated around 04H00 on the following day, 04 May, 2007, to negative results. That morning, close to 08H30, the began searching anew in the complex, and the deponent was with a group who looked for the child in a part of the tourist complex;
. Questioned, the deponent states that she did not have direct contact with the minor at issue, Madeleine McCann, and is not aware of her habits or that of her parents, nor was she told about any strange situation regarding the child or f another period of time in which she worked in Portugal;
. It was about one week ago, on a date for which she cannot be precise, while she was accompanied by her friend Leanne, and going in the direction of her residence, on a street located close to the building where she lives, when they were cornered by an individual who passed by them, very slowly, at the wheel of a vehicle of make and model she did not know but the time but it did not seem recent. At passing, the individual invited them for a beer, to which they quickly declined. She adds that she did not pay the individual much attention, so that he would not continue to bother them, but this fact only allowed her to retain his physical characteristics—he had short, black hair. Urged, she states if she was confronted by this person or his photograph, she would not be capable of identifying him. That she did not observe any other characteristics signs of the individual like the vehicle that he drove. A few days later, in conversation with her colleagues, Leanne, Cai and Rhiannon she was told that an individual in a white commercial vehicle, had cornered them. That in none of these situations was it possible for Leanne to capture the license plate of the commercial vehicle mentioned above. Questioned, she states that she saw never saw the above referenced individual again;
. Questioned, the deponent states that beyond this situation, on another occasion, an event caught her attention. An individual of the male sex, in Praia da Luz, next to a café, whose name she does not know, was playing a guitar until the day of the facts, now under investigation. on the night Maddie disappeared and while she was involved with a group searching, mentioned prior, they encountered a vehicle, whose make and model she does not know, of while colour, commercial, parked on top of a hill, where, she cannot identify. At this point, some of the group elements banged on the window of the vehicle and the back doors and saw the person who habitually played the guitar on the beach. He was covered with blankets, reading a book and drinking a beer, with the help of a flashlight. Questioned, they did were not able to observe in detail the interior of the vehicle. She add that the individual was asked whether he had seen a minor of about four years of age and the same responded, jocularly, that on that night, no one knocked on the doors of his vehicle;
. For the reason she was asked, she state that she never spoke to anyone who were not her colleagues, regarding the children with whom she worked;
. Adds that she has no knowledge of any type of situation which she finds strange and/or another which could be directly or indirectly related to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann;
. Nothing more said, having read the statement, finds it in conformity and signs it;
. The document is duly signed by me, Pedro Florindo, an Inspector with this Polícia Judiciária


Unless I am misunderstanding her statement, it appears that she accompanied Madeleine's group to the beach in the afternoon (no day mentioned - according to the activities sheet they went to the beach Tuesday for ice cream trip at 2.30-3.30 and beach play 3.30-4.30 but tennis was on the activity sheet for onday although Georgina quotes it as Tuesday so how reliable is this activity sheet and what about the mini dance after the beach trip?) but does that mean that Catriona was not there that day and if so, could this happen more than once where Catriona was not in charge of the children?

Image

Can anyone explain this?

These times are very different from the activity sheet and she does not mention the mini sail?

<!-- m -->http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE.htm<!-- m -->

Quote:
Beach
Catriona told us that the only days that they went to the beach was on Tuesday in the afternoon (1st May 2007) between 15.30 and 16.30 and on the following day Wednesday at the same time.
Catriona Baker page 870


Maybe that is why the two afternoon squares are highlighted in beige even though one is listed as grass time.

What happened to the ice cream trip at 2.30 on Tuesday?

Was there a question in the police investigation about what Catriona had stated, hence they needed to build the timeline pages?

Now I am really confused...

the 'tables' show Kate as picking Madeleine up at 12.25pm and dropping her off at 2.50pm (after their trip with the twins to the beach).

The ice cream trip was scheduled for 2.30 so they would have already left for the beach.

Creche records show Gerry picked er up and dropped her off at 2.30pm

Are the tables according to what Catriona told them?
Table for Tuesday
<!-- m -->http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/CREC ... nexo59.jpg<!-- m -->

Creche records for tuesday
<!-- m -->http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/CREC ... es-107-111<!-- m -->[105-109]/processopdf01page110-CrecheRecords1.jpg

I always thought Tuesday was odd ...

Can anyone explain this?



From a post on the previous page, here is a summary I have some questions about.

From Kirsty's statement...
Did she replace Catriona taking the children to the beach?
Did they only go for a few minutes?
Were there so many children going to the beach that she didn't interact with Madeleine?

<!-- l -->post152.html#p152<!-- l -->
Kirsty Louise Maryan

Quote:
relative to the facts of the investigation the witness clarifies that in her daily schedule mentioned she only, on one occasion, had contact with Madeleine McCann, for about 30 minutes—who was treated as Maddie—in that she had to substitute for her colleague, who, at that time, was responsible for the group whose name is Emma, as she had to go to the Tapas to take care of the refreshments of Madeleine’s group. For this, the deponent had the charge of accompanying that group towards the beach until the MiniClub where they stayed for a few minutes, and from where they left for the restaurant, mentioned above, in order to have dinner. She clarifies that when Madeleine ate her food, her parents were close and accompanied her;


She claims she was calmer and shier than the other children.

.
Quote:
Questioned, she states that the minor in questions appeared to her a calm child, happy, but quiet. States that Maddie was a very pretty child, notwithstanding, she did not stick out for this fact. However, as she was calmer and shier that the others; she furthers that the same child, from what she saw, was a child who did stick out, precisely . Questioned, she furthers that she had no contact with [Maddie’s] parents;


She didn't have direct contact with her.

Quote:
Questioned, the deponent states that she did not have direct contact with the minor at issue, Madeleine McCann, and is not aware of her habits or that of her parents,


I am having trouble visualising the scenario.

---------------------------

In the police 'tables' Catriona claims they only went to the beach twice (not mentioning the mini sail)
According to the activity sheet the times she gave for the beach trips showed it was grass time and the ice cream trip was not within the time period mentioned.
There is also a discrepancy between the time Madeleine was dropped off on Tuesday and WHO dropped her off.

Did the police create the 'tables' because of the discrepancies.

What date were these tables created and where did they take her statement of only going to the beach twice in the week?

12 Outros Apensos Vol XII Annex 59

PAGE 59


Quote:
Beach
Catriona told us that the only days that they went to the beach was on Tuesday in the afternoon (1st May 2007) between 15.30 and 16.30 and on the following day Wednesday at the same time.
Catriona Baker page 870


See post on previous page for more info...

Could this mean that Catriona's statement about the mini sail on Thursday may mean it did not happen and was she wasn't there every day?

Why in the comments to the police did she not mention the mini sail?

Are the comments in her first interview about the mini sail part of the 'change' she made to her statement changes when she made her Rogatory? (sorry Snowy I haven't checked on your suggestions yet...the details of her returning for her interview three times is on another computer)

Are the beige squares on the Activity sheet according to what Catriona claims as beach trips even though one shows as grass time?

On May 10th she DOES mention mini sail.

<!-- l -->post1453.html#p1453<!-- l -->
Quote:
Processos, volume IV TOC, pgs. Pgs. 870 to 883

External Diligence carried out with Catriona Baker regarding Madeleine’s outing to the beach

Date: 2007.05.10
Place: Praia da Luz, Lagos
Officer responsible: Manuel Pinho, Inspector

Description and result of diligence

On this date, in the company of my colleague Joao Barreiras and with Catriona Baker, the nanny responsible for the missing minor, we reconstructed the locations and their movements upon leaving the resort, in the direction of the beach.

We were told by Catriona, that in the last days they went to the beach on Tuesday afternoon (01 of May 2007), between 15H30 and 16h30, on Wednesday (the next day) at the same time and on Thursday between 10 and 11h00 (see attached map).


Thursday police 'table' is missing

(Pages 63 and 64 are missing)



The above post regarding the police tables built around the McCanns dropping off Madeleine and Catriona's comments about the beach trips...

The details of Thursday, maybe, are in the two pages held back and not included in the files (page 63 and 64).

<!-- m -->http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE.htm<!-- m -->

Why were the creche times and beach trip scrutinised by the police, and some pages not released, if they didn't question them?

Can anyone confirm the validity regarding the three interviews from a post earlier (quoted below) in this thread?

Is this linked to the tables made by the police and the mini sail day not being disclosed in the files?

Quote:
Is it correct that Catriona changed her original statement three times (a year later) and if so, would she have been able to change the content by adding or removing details or only to correct the context of the translation?

<!-- m -->http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/1 ... leave.html<!-- m -->

Some have doubts about the Ocean Club’s crèche records. The doubts increase if we pay attention to the depositions from Maddie’s last nanny

by Hernâni Carvalho

“The disappearance took place during the time period between 5.35 and 10.05 p.m. on the 3rd of May 2007”, reads the report from the 4th Brigade of the PJ in Portimão. A premiss that is now questioned. Catriona Treasa Sisile Baker was the nanny who worked at the crèche and was responsible for Maddie since the McCanns arrived in Praia da Luz. The statements that the nanny gave to the police raise doubts. After Maddie’s disappearance, she was heard by the PJ in Portimão. One week later, she was transferred to another location by her employers. Soon afterwards, she returned to England. At Leicestershire police, she was also heard, but corrected the statements that she had given in Portugal.

I was allowed to refresh my memory by reading the translated version of my original statement to the Portuguese police”, one can read in the report that was taped by Leicester police. The contents of the nanny’s statements was such that she was heard three times on the same day, and had to have her memory refreshed. At Leicestershire police headquarters, Catriona Baker was heard by detective Gierc between 10.09 and 10.54 a.m. on Monday, the 14th of April 2008. Between 11.57 and 12.12 a.m. on the same day, she was heard again by the same detective and between 1.35 and 1.45 p.m. on the same day she was again questioned by the same detective.


(...)

In Portugal, the experts that can evaluate calligraphy are from the PJ. It was explained to Tvmais that the crèche’s reports reveal inconsistencies in the writing. One of the doubts that the analysts raise concerns the identity of the authors of the form filling and their signatures in the form. The nanny’s signature and her handwriting appear on the sheet where only the parents were supposed to sign. Did anyone notice?

Source: TvMais, paper edition only 18.11.2008


Could Catriona have changed her original statement regarding the mini sail?


Many of the witnesses were (understandably) mistaken.

The similarity between Maddie and Ella could very well account for why there is a difference in personality..

Image

Greyscale pics of Tanner and Paynes children

<!-- m -->http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/G ... _SNAPS.htm<!-- m -->


<!-- l -->post466.html#p466<!-- l -->
Quote:
Jane Tanner
00.45 4078 “Madeleine, how much of Madeleine did you see?”
Reply “Not that much really because only really because she didn’t come to breakfast, so
we saw the other children at breakfast and their lunch, but because they tended to
have breakfast and lunch separately, the only time I really saw her was at, erm, after
high tea when we were playing in the play area, was the main times that I probably
saw her during the week”.
4078 “And how would you describe Madeleine?”
Reply “Very, she was very lively, a very lively, happy, a happy little girl really. Because,
probably a bit of, we were almost a bit worried how Exxxx and Madeleine would get
on, because Exxxx’s quite shy and sensitive and Madeleine’s very, erm, I don’t know
whether you can call a child vivacious,
but, you know, sort of very, erm, outgoing
and. But, I mean, they did, they got on and they had a whale of a time. But, yeah,
very, very lively, chatty, a chatty little girl. I mean, to be honest, I know Madeleine
probably less well than I know Kate and Gerry, because often, with Kate and Gerry,
we saw them, it was like at fortieth birthday parties and that sort of thing. So,
Madeleine herself, I wouldn’t say as, I didn’t know her as a little girl, whereas, you
know, the other children, Millie and the other ones, you know, I saw very regularly”.
4078 “So your impressions of Madeleine is that she is confident, happy?”
Reply “Umm”.
4078 “Intelligent?”
Reply “Yeah, very, yeah, you know, very”.
4078 “And is there anything about her that would make her stand out from the rest of the
children in that group?”
Reply “I think just the fact she is very outgoing, you know. As I say, Exxxx, in her nature, is a
bit more, you know, quiet and, erm, a bit more probably reserved. Well, again, I
don’t know whether you’d call a child reserved, but more, you know, not quite so”.
4078 “Hangs back and sees what is going on?”

Reply “Yeah, she’s, yeah, whereas, I think Madeleine would be, she would always be in the
centre, anything that was going on she would be, I don’t mean to say the ring-leader,
but she would be at the centre of it,
so”.
02.45 4078 “I don’t want to put words in your mouth and I don’t want to ask inappropriate
questions either”.
Reply “No, just ask”.
4078 “How you described Madeleine, up to what point was she sort of the leader, if you
like, was she verging on the, because some children can be downright annoying”.
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “When they’re over confident?”
Reply “No, again, I think this is what I was almost wondering, whether, with Exxxx being sort
of the stand-back type, whether, but, no, she wasn’t like that at all, she was just”.
4078 “In a nice way?”
Reply “Just happy. In a nice way, yeah. No, she wasn’t, erm, she wasn’t a brat, no, I mean,
that’s you could describe, she wasn’t, no, bratty or sort of, I can’t remember the word
I’m trying to look for, precocious”.
4078 “Yeah”.
Reply “No, she was just very, and she was obviously, you know, they were enjoying
themselves, they were running around screaming, you know, sort of chasing them
round the play area, you know. That’s my main memory of Madeleine from the
holiday, is in the play area, you know, we were sort of chasing them around and, you
know, just being, just running around, quite happy”.
4078 “Just fun?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah”.


I would rather think that they were mistaken than to think Madeleine had a drastic personality change and the implications behind it.....


Miguel Mattias the owner of the Paraiso not only mistook one of the tapas children for Maddie but when he found out that Maddie wasn't there he was amazed and didn't want to believe it (have lost the article with those quotes). He felt SURE that the little girl dancing with her daddy was Madeleine. CCTV show she wasn't there.

Was he comparing the child to the picture and seeing the comparison to the Payne's oldest? (the cook thought she saw Madeleine every day in the creche next to the tapas but it was possibly the Paynes child who attended that creche) Did he see a similarity to JT's children?

ONE of them, apparently, resembled Madeleine a lot!

I apologise about not putting a notation next to the two comparison pics above. (if taken from my site)

I have Pamalams authorisation to use the pics on the Madeleine Forum but she has asked that the greyscale pics of the Paynes and Tanner children not be used on forums.

Would appreciate if someone could edit it from the post...Thanks.

It can be seen at the bottom of Pamalams Greyscale pics page

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We are supposed to believe Catrionas statement that she took Madeleine to mini sail on Thursday morning.

Why did the police feel it necessary to create the Diagram of Events and why does it say that Catriona says the ONLY days they went to the beach was Tuesday and Wednesday.

It seems we are not the only ones to question what happened at the creche during the week!

Why is the Diagram of Events for Thursday missing (page 63 and 64 missing) and the creche details for Sean and Amelie on Thursday morning missing?

<!-- m -->http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE.htm<!-- m -->
12 Outros Apensos Vol XII Annex 59

Quote:
Beach

Catriona told us that the only days that they went to the beach was on Tuesday in the afternoon (1st May 2007) between 15.30 and 16.30 and on the following day Wednesday at the same time.
Catriona Baker page 870
01-05-2007 15.30.00


Seems a possibility that Catriona 'remembered' and added the mini sail to her original statement when she changed them during the Rogatories.


<!-- l -->topic9355-280.html<!-- l -->
Quote:
The statements that the nanny gave to the police raise doubts. After Maddie’s disappearance, she was heard by the PJ in Portimão. One week later, she was transferred to another location by her employers. Soon afterwards, she returned to England. At Leicestershire police, she was also heard, but corrected the statements that she had given in Portugal.

“I was allowed to refresh my memory by reading the translated version of my original statement to the Portuguese police”, one can read in the report that was taped by Leicester police. The contents of the nanny’s statements was such that she was heard three times on the same day, and had to have her memory refreshed. At Leicestershire police headquarters, Catriona Baker was heard by detective Gierc between 10.09 and 10.54 a.m. on Monday, the 14th of April 2008. Between 11.57 and 12.12 a.m. on the same day, she was heard again by the same detective and between 1.35 and 1.45 p.m. on the same day she was again questioned by the same detective


The credibility of Catriona's statement is crucial to confirm that Madeleine was alive at 5.30pm.

All of the other statements have been shown to be questionable and do not show (relative) PROOF that it was Madeleine they saw.

If Catrionas statement is questionable (which the above shows) then why should we believe Madeleine was alive at 5.30pm on Thursday?

TVMais: At what time did Maddie leave the crèche?
<!-- m -->http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/1 ... leave.html<!-- m -->

Quote:
In Portugal, the experts that can evaluate calligraphy are from the PJ. It was explained to Tvmais that the crèche’s reports reveal inconsistencies in the writing. One of the doubts that the analysts raise concerns the identity of the authors of the form filling and their signatures in the form. The nanny’s signature and her handwriting appear on the sheet where only the parents were supposed to sign


  think the neck in the greyscale pic is hidden by her hair.

My point in assembling this comparison pic was only to highlight how easily a casual observer could be mistken about seeing adeleine when they actually saw the child on the left (maybe Paynes oldest)

The cook claims she saw Madeleine when she attended the creche next to the tapas. It was the Paynes oldest that attended that creche, not Madeleine.

There is, maybe, also a similarity between Madeleine and Tanner's oldest imo

Is the other child Tanner's oldest?
Image

Its not surprising with those three children in the holiday 'bunch of friends' that some people, when shown this picture may have mistaken Madeleine for one of the other two.
Image



There is a direct contradiction, even within the same paragraph of her statement...

Quote:
<!-- m -->http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE.htm<!-- m -->
12 Outros Apensos Vol XII Annex 59
Beach

Catriona told us that the only days that they went to the beach was on Tuesday in the afternoon (1st May 2007) between 15.30 and 16.30 and on the following day Wednesday at the same time.Catriona Baker page 870
01-05-2007 15.30.00



<!-- l -->post1452.html#p1452<!-- l -->
Catriona Rogatory
Quote:
There was one occasion, on Thursday, 3rd of May 2007, around 10h30 in the morning, when she cried on board of the speed boat that would take them out to the yellow boats in the sea where all the children in the group were going to sail. She was scared and a bit fearful and sat on my lap, crying “I am scared, I am scared.” We only use the speed boats to carry the children out to the small yellow boats. When we arrived at the other yellow boat she was already happy again. She sailed in the small boat and even though some children had the opportunity to return to the port, she stayed for a second ride as she appeared to be having a good time. Jane Tanner’s daughter E*** was also in my group and they both played together and shared some intimacy. Despite from being a happy child at the club, she always seemed very content when she saw her parents. Madeleine was not as worried anymore on the speed boat, when we returned to land.


Quote:
During the week which Madeleine stayed in the club there were three organised events that included a trip to the beach. One of those events took place on Thursday morning, as I mentioned earlier. Another of those events consisted of a trip to the beach with “hula hoops”, shovels and buckets, etc, and the other trip to the beach was in order to eat ice cream. Both trips to the beach took place in the afternoon but I cannot state precisely on which days. There should be a recording of this in the Mark Warner registers.


THREE times to the beach and in the same paragraph she refers to BOTH times? (matching the comments given for the Diagram of Events.)

All this and I haven't started to scrutinise her statement yet!

Seems there is no need now...Catriona has proven herself that her statement cannot be considered credible and should not be used as confirmation Madeleine was alive at 5.30pm imo

I welcome someone correcting me if I am wrong!



In reading Kirsty statement she refers to substituting for Madeleine's group while their nanny went to tapas to prepare the food..

At the time she claims it was EMMA that was responsible for the group.

Did she misunderstand which group she was taking and it was BOD's child's group (nanny Emma), or was Emma substituting for Catriona that day?

Quote:
Kirsty Louise Maryan
relative to the facts of the investigation the witness clarifies that in her daily schedule mentioned she only, on one occasion, had contact with Madeleine McCann, for about 30 minutes—who was treated as Maddie—in that she had to substitute for her colleague, who, at that time, was responsible for the group whose name is Emma, as she had to go to the Tapas to take care of the refreshments of Madeleine’s group. For this, the deponent had the charge of accompanying that group towards the beach until the MiniClub where they stayed for a few minutes, and from where they left for the restaurant, mentioned above, in order to have dinner. She clarifies that when Madeleine ate [color=#BF0000]her food, her parents were close and accompanied her; . Questioned, she states that Madeleine McCann related to the group of children “MiniClub” who are supervised by a colleague of hers, whose name is Amy, and who coordinates her workers, for who she only knows first names, Cat and Emma, employees who worked with the group during the week in question, from 29 April to 04 May, 2007;
. Questioned, she states that the minor in questions appeared to her a calm child, happy, but quiet. States that Maddie was a very pretty child, notwithstanding, she did not stick out for this fact. However, as she was calmer and shier that the others; she furthers that the same child, from what she saw, was a child who did stick out, precisely . Questioned, she furthers that she had no contact with [Maddie’s] parents; [/color]


Was Madeleine in a different group or was Catriona not looking after them that day?

Many questions about Kirsty's statement and the credibility of who saw Madeleine.

Not only the creche records are questionable...the activity sheet does not reflect what their statements claim.



If I remember correctly, they had a child in the group that was not part of the program also. (somewhere on this thread) :s_smile.

I think some of the issues are because of the 'Whistleblower program problems that MW needed to employ damage control and Catriona was subjected to this, as, at the time, it was an abduction and MW creche should not have been involved. It was all about the repercussions of the program because of the 'abduction'. Possibly.



I am not wrong in saying that in the police files she mentions about ONLY going to the beach twice (Wed and Thursday)

I am questioning WHY did she say it was the ONLY times and WHEN was it she made that comment?

Quote:
<!-- m -->http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE.htm<!-- m -->
12 Outros Apensos Vol XII Annex 59
Beach

Catriona told us that the only days that they went to the beach was on Tuesday in the afternoon (1st May 2007) between 15.30 and 16.30 and on the following day Wednesday at the same time.Catriona Baker page 870
01-05-2007 15.30.00


The police compiled the Diagrams based on that comment and they appear to consider the Thursday diagram of some importance as they did not release it with the files.

In fact, what was the reason they compiled the diagrams in the first place?

To check the chain of events at the creche that week?

The records weren't enough?

They differ from the records and the activity sheet does not seem to 'follow' with what the activities that the statements contain.

Why did Catriona claim they only went twice? (at one point)
_________________




Thanks for translating that for me...

The point is, however, that on the Diagrams of Events for the creche they did not include Thursday.

Quote:
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE.htm
12 Outros Apensos Vol XII Annex 59
Beach

Catriona told us that the only days that they went to the beach was on Tuesday in the afternoon (1st May 2007) between 15.30 and 16.30 and on the following day Wednesday at the same time.Catriona Baker page 870
01-05-2007 15.30.00


Tuesday stated Tuesday and Wednesday
Wednesday stated Tuesday and Wednesday.

Thursday was not included in the comment AND the diagram for Thursday was not released.

Why?

I tried to find the source of the comment that didn't include Thursday and even asked Ines on another thread.

I personally don't think a comment regarding my 'credibility' is warranted.

I spend an extraordinary amount of time collating information from many areas including the Rogatories and look for sources of information and help (as in this case) when I come to a conclusion.

If I am wrong, I immediately admit to doing so and I expect to being wrong a lot more times, but I do my best to show the information and rely on others to correct me if I have made a mistake.

Insinuating my credibility is compromised under those circumstances is not called for as far as I am concerned.

I do not have an agenda except to see Madeleine laid to rest with dignity so her family can grieve.

The information I claimed, still stands...

On the Diagram of events, there is a curious lack of a mention of the beach trip on Thursday.

There are no statements from Alice Stanley and Chris Unsworth (taken or released?)

There are no creche record for the twins for Thursday morning released in the files.

Something seems to be amis for that Thursday morning.

The police didn't seem to want to add the mini sail to the weeks creche 'Diagram of Events' imo, otherwise the comments for Tuesday and Wednesday would have included the 'Thursday ' comment and the diagram for Thursday would, maybe, be available. (as well as the twins creche records).

harmony, I do my best with the time and resources I have. I would appreciate not being expected to be perfect under those circumstances...I look for assistance, and appreciate all input.

Credibility relies on honesty, not perfection.

I am not one to demand that everyone should blindly believe anything I post.

I want the truth to be known and will give my time, and expect everyone to question my posts if they feel it necessary.


Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:39 am 
To show I made no attempt to misquote anything, I was merely trying to make sense of the information provided in the Diagram of events (see below)

I have often tried to study these diagrams, difficult to scrutinise as I do not understand Portuguese but they are fairly understandable.

The first two diagrams show a portion of Tuesday and Wednesday

Both days refer to Tuesday and Wednesday at the beach and not Thursday that was included on Page 870 information.

Thursday diagram is missing.

Why do the 'Beach' comments not refer to Tues/Wed/Thursday (even if the diagram was missing)?

These first diagrams appear to show whether it was Gerry or Kate that delivered/picked up Madeleine from the creche and her beach trips.

Why did they not release Thursday?

Was there something questionable about that morning?

Detailed page here... <!-- m -->http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE.htm<!-- m -->







The diagrams below show the delivery/pickup of both the twins and Madeleine by Kate and Gerry.

Thursday is included in these diagrams but Monday and Tuesday are not.

Those of us that believe something may have happened on Monday/Tuesday (keeping in mind that the creche records for Monday show a 15 minute drop off for Madeleine in the afternoon and the 'suspicious' trip to the beach at lunchtime on Tuesday)



Thursday diagram does not show any drop off or pick up of the twins for Thursday am

Do the unreleased creche records show they were dropped off or not?



Considering Goncalo/police claim not an abduction, Madeleine died in the apartment after 5.30pm on May 3rd, they seem to have made a great effort to question the details during creche hours throughout the week.

One has to wonder why!






You could be correct Snowy.

However to not include vital information, such as the mini sail trip but to hold it back from release, along with the creche records for the twins that morning means there may be something during those times that should not be viewed by the public.

There were other outings away from the creche that were not included which suggests it wasn't about whether she was targeted.

Something about Thursday morning they dont want the public to see.

As I have said before regarding Goncalo.

He has made it clear that they are not his opinions. They are the observations of the investigation using the data they had prior to September 2007.

He says that is important to remember

Maybe witness statements regardless of whether they were incorrect or not.



I saw the blank page, but did not refer to that until I had checked with Pamalam.

No need to now as you have explained it. Thank you.

I was referring to pages 63 and 64 that are missing, shown here.

Image

It clearly shows to me an effort to establish 'visually' which of the parents picked up/dropped off each child.

Again I ask...why?

I can't see how that would help an 'abduction' or an 'accident' in the apartment Thursday night.

The only reason I can think of is there was something questionable about the creche times and the beach activity.

The activity sheet seems to have the areas highlighted that Catriona claimed was beach times and yet they dont seem to match.

She claimed Wednesday afternoon at the beach but the sheet shows 'Olympics grass time'



It is claimed three trips to the beach.

One was on Friday. That never happened. (not for Madeleine anyway)

What about the ice cream trip? Was that at the beach?

Some of the comments in travel forums say it was a special event.

Georgina and tennis records show mini tennis as Tuesday. The activity sheet shows it as Monday.

Maybe all the above is explainable.

Maybe it isn't and thats why the police chose to create the diagrams.




Goncalo has a very good reason for not mentioning an earlier death.

He can probably only claim scenarios regarding the information that they had in Sept 2007 and cannot state his opinion without proof that the statements were incorrect.

We all have different opinions. I prefer to research and make my own choices with as much information as I can, rather than believe what is expected.

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/<!-- m -->
Quote:
JP: So your opinion is that an accidental death took place in that apartment.

GA: It is not my opinion. It’s the opinion of the investigation. This has to be made very clear. I have repeated this several times but it’s important.

JP: You are absolutely right, so according to the investigation…

GA: According to the investigation that was composed of English, Portuguese investigators…

JP: Exactly. The little girl died in that apartment?

GA: The little girl died in that apartment.

JP: On the evening of the 3rd of May.

GA: And we reached that conclusion with the data that we have.


I think that tells us that Goncalo only speaks about the data they had in the files.

(BW Snowy, I gave my telescope to my son so I cannot be accused of looking through the wrong end!) :s_biggrin



Do you know who it was who coloured in the activity sheet and added the curved arrow for that week please?

Was it the PJ or the nannies themselves?


The coloured areas seem to correspond with the times/days that Catriona claimed for beach trips, in the statements on Page 870 (even though they don't correspond to beach trips according to the activity sheet)

Possibly was filled in because of her comments, whether PJ or Catriona herself.



Snowy wrote:
HiDeHo wrote:

As I have said before regarding Goncalo.

He has made it clear that they are not his opinions. They are the observations of the investigation using the data they had prior to September 2007.

He says that is important to remember


Maybe witness statements regardless of whether they were incorrect or not.


What he actually said, when asked directly about it by bloggers associated with this forum, was

Q: Have you considered the possibility that Madeleine died on the previous night or even when Mrs. Fenn heard the crying?

A: Naturally - the investigation begins with establishing if the person who disappeared, does actually exist and then, who was the last person to see her - the investigation shows clearly that she was last seen around 17.30.

I don't see any equivocation there.


I disagree Snowy.

I do not see him say 'no'.

He first says they establish that Madeleine existed and, as the INVESTIGATION (witness statements?) shows clearly that she was last seen at 17.30.

Not his opinion and the data (presumably Catriona's statement) shows she was alive.

ETA Curiously he claims DP saw her at 17.30

Quote:
David Payne, in your opinion, may have something to do with the disappearance of Madeleine?

I do not know why it was not investigated properly as it should, in my opinion, have been. He was the last to see Madeleine alive after 17.30 hours, when she left the nursery. Gerry was playing tennis and asked him to look in on Kate and the kids. Gerry replies that he was in the apartment and she (Madeleine) was there. He returned 30 minutes later. Kate says it was 30 seconds. Something that does not fit together.



Whether Catriona's statement is to be believed or not is another question and he cannot base his comments on that.


Quote:
GA: It is not my opinion. It’s the opinion of the investigation. This has to be made very clear. I have repeated this several times but it’s important.
(...)
GA: And we reached that conclusion with the data that we have


That aside, he can only speak about what has been made public and what was available until September 2007.

He is very limited in what he can say and I do not see this as an outright 'NO'.

imo


I have done individual timetables for that evening

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TIMETABLES-1-69278<!-- m -->

Also a tennis timetable which includes the T9 locations for that day.

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16817.html<!-- m -->

To assist in comparing statements for each T9 in each particular timeframe, I have allocated colours for each (blue Gerry, maroon Kate, purple ROB, orange DP)

The time is in the left hand column.

Interesting to scroll down to the 5-8pm timeline and see the enormous amount of discrepancies during that time and it does not include the 17.30 visit by DP and 19.00 visit by FP.

We DO know they were at the Paraiso

FP DW JT seen at 5.30pm (no children, JT just leaving)
FP and DW at 5.34pm
MO DW JT returns seen at 5.38pm (no children yet)
MO DW JT FP (returned) ROM seen (arriving with baby) at 5.46pm
MO ROM DW JT and DP and young child arrived seen at 5.47pm
ROB arrives 5.52pm
All and 4(?) children at 5.59pm
ROB stands 6.12pm
ROB MO DP last seen at 6.13pm
6.36pm JT bending over buggy FP DW ROM

Image
_________________





It's good to see the extraordinary amount of discrepancies start to be recognised. Particularly for this time period

I have been listing them in timetable for so I can compare statements about each 15 minute time period but I realise, although invaluable to me, many may not be able to understand them.

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16817.html<!-- m -->

I will start trying to list them in a timeline instead of a timetable.

Considering all the discrepancies you have all listed above (and there are lots more for just that time period alone)...you have to wonder why it was necessary to 'hide' or 'confuse' or not get it 'close to correct' if Madeleine died of an accident later in the evening and at the time all this confusion was going on was just because they had dreadful memories that changed every time they opened their mouths.

Something was 'going on' long before that evening imo

You may find this a curiosity as well..as did the police..

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16817.html<!-- m -->
Quote:
<!-- l -->post459.html#p459<!-- l -->

FP-

between six and seven as well, could you tell me where David was?”Reply
“Erm, I can up to a point, yeah. He was, as I say, he left, as I see it, around six, erm, and then I wouldn’t have seen him again until I got to the tennis courts to see him play tennis, so that would have been about half six and then he was playing tennis for that whole half an hour and, as I say, we left him playing tennis, when me and my mum went up to bath the kids and he, he didn’t sort of return until after seven, ten past seven, quarter past seven, something like that, so, yeah, that’s where he was. And then the rest is what he’s told me, erm, again, I couldn’t tell you times, but I know before he went, went to tennis, he popped in on Kate and the kids, erm, and saw them all in their pyjamas, ready for bed, having a story, before going to join for the tennis, so I can only assume that that was between, erm, you know, six and half past”.
1485
“So he didn’t tell you a period of time where he did that then?”
Reply
“Sorry?”
1485
“He didn’t tell you the period of time which he checked on?”
Reply
“Well he said it was before tennis”.
1485
“Before tennis?”
Reply
“Yeah, before going to the tennis”.
1485
“And the next question is, okay, and you have just answered it. If he is not with you during this period then where did he go and with what intention? Well it is obviously it is to play tennis, isn’t it?”
Reply
“Umm”.
1485
“Although you can’t say one hundred percent, can you, if he was on the tennis court between six and seven, can you?”
Reply
“No”.
1485
“You can say he was there between quarter to seven and seven?”
Reply
“I feel I’m answering Dave’s question for him”.
1485
“Yeah”.
Reply
“Because all I know is that he, he said to me later on that evening that he had been in on Kate and the kids. Erm, now I’m taking that as before tennis, whether it was that Gerry stayed on playing tennis and Dave came back earlier and popped in before coming up to our apartment, I, I can’t, I can’t be a hundred percent on that”.
1485
“Yeah”.
Reply
“Erm, you know, contrary to what you’re thinking, I mean, huh, you know, we don’t”.
1485
“I don’t think”.
Reply
“Well, you know. Dave’s, erm, you know, I believe that’s for Dave to say what he did really”.
1485
“Sure, yeah”.
Reply
“But I know, I know he said”.
1485
“It is your interview”.
Reply
“Yeah, I know he said he’d been in there”.
1485
“Yeah”.
Reply
“Erm, and that was before coming back to our apartment, so between, between six and seven o’clock”.
1485
Yeah. If you don’t know you don’t know”.
Reply
“Yeah”.
1485
“That is the answer really, isn’t it?”
Reply
“Yeah”.



<!-- l -->post414.html#p414<!-- l -->
Quote:
Fiona Payne May 4th 2007
They arrived there at around 3.45pm and came back around 6.15pm to go to the tennis courts where they stayed until 7pm. Then the interviewee went to her apartment with her children and her mother. In the apartment, her mother, helped by her husband, gave the children a bath while the interviewee went jogging on the beach until 8pm. Then she returned to the apartment and did a few household chores and went out at around 8.45pm, accompanied by her mother and her husband to go to the "Tapas," restaurant to join the rest of the group. TheMcCann couple were amongst the members of the group at dinner.



<!-- l -->post413.html#p413<!-- l -->
Quote:
Dianne Webster
With her son-in-law's help, they bathed the children.


<!-- l -->post442.html#p442<!-- l -->
Quote:
Dianne Webster Rogatory, going over old statement

with respect to yesterday you went to the beach with your granddaughters, your son in-law and your daughter, which you’ve recalled already.”

DW: "Mm.”

PC: "You arrived there about quarter to four and left at about quarter past six when you went to the tennis court and you stayed there until about seven.”

DW: "Oh right, so I did go.”


PC: "Straight after that you went to the apartment with your granddaughters where you son in-law David arrived after ten minutes, and in the apartment you gave the children a bath with the help of your son in-law. You left the apartment about quarter to nine in the company of your son in-law and daughter, and met up with the rest of the group in the Tapas. So yeah it must have been that day…”

DW: "Yeah sorry I…”

PC: "Can you recall…”

DW: "You see that has brought back to mind the fact yes we did bath the children together but I just, I’d forgotten that.”


Seems to me a possibility that during the Rogatories, Dianne had forgotten what she was supposed to say, imo

<!-- l -->post452.html#p452<!-- l -->
Quote:
Gerry played a little, for a little while but he decided that he’d, he’d played enough tennis for that day and err was going back and so it left with me, Russell and err Matt and err Dan who was the, the you know the tennis coach from Mark Warner. Err so we played some tennis and you know we were having a good knock and then it was getting a bit late so err we, you know we left the tennis courts, went back to our respective partners to get ready to go out, you know it was, it was, you know certainly after half past seven that we’d, you know we’d left the courts, perhaps even a bit later than that. Err when I got back err I think because Fiona had done a lot of babysitting and left me playing tennis she said well I’m gonna go for a very quick run so she went for a run on the beach, you know, err got the kids ready, bathed, got them ready for err to go to bed but again you know as we’d got back late err from the tennis courts you know the whole time err for that evening was not, you know later. And then we just got ready to go and by the time Fi had got back from the run we’d all had showers, we were all ready to go and the girls were asleep and we were happy to leave the apartment, it was you know it was sort of gone quarter to nine.



Quote:
Matthew Oldfield

And Gerry was down playing on a court, I think there was only three of them, I think the, erm, the coach, whose name I can’t remember, the tennis coach, the blonde haired bloke, erm, was playing to make up the numbers. And so we waited and watched for a little while, so we didn’t get on court until, phew, sometime closer to seven, so maybe sort of quarter to or twenty to or ten to seven we went down to the court. And we were hoping that Gerry would actually stay and make up the four, because everybody, there was one court that was full of four and then there was a three over he, but he, erm, sort of went back to, erm, to sort of help with, you know, Kate and the kids and didn’t stay to sort of play with us and there was just the three of us and I think the coach stayed and played to make up the four initially, but didn’t want to stay, so he didn’t stay the whole time. But we played then for, I think the best part of an hour, erm, before going back to the apartment. And that would have made me slightly late for putting G***e to bed, so I was sort of, oh I better go, I better finish now because, you know, Rachael will be doing it all on her own”.
00.08.51 4078 “You would be in trouble?”
Reply “Well, yeah, and also because, you know, I like doing the, I usually do bath time and Rachael would do the story, so I was quite keen to get back anyway. So half seven we’d normally be trying to get her down to, but she was, erm, awake when I got back



<!-- l -->post489.html#p489<!-- l -->
Quote:
ROB
The kids came up with Jane, Fiona and Rachael from the beach, but not the MC CANN'S children I presume that they were at the apartment. They stayed for a short while before going back to the apartment to be bathed and put to bed. I got back to the flat around 20:00hours as we were running late we had to take the rackets back with us


None of them can remember anything that fits with a basic timeline for that evening...6.00pm - 8.00pm....

WHY?

Fiona says she left David playing tennis and she went back to the apartment and he arrived at 7.10.

She and her mum bathed the children...

David and Dianne say it was them that bathed the children while Fiona went jogging (until 8.00)

David says he arrived back a while after 7.30pm...ROB was with him and he says they finished close to 8.00pm

Lets not forget that Rachael thinks she gave Ella a bath that night (indicates maybe, that the children stayed at MO and Rachael's apartment?) and none of them went back to the apartment until twenty to eight!

<!-- l -->post484.html#p484<!-- l -->

Quote:
RACHAEL
Reply “Erm in terms of us coming up from the beach, there was Jane, E**a and E**e, Fiona, Diane , Lilly and Scarlet, G***e and I and then when we got up to the tennis courts, erm Matt, Dave, Russell, Gerry were there, Matt, Dave, Russell and Gerry were playing tennis and I think there were a couple of other holiday makers”.
00.59.50 1578 “So Matt, Dave, Russell and Gerry were already playing tennis”?
Reply “Yes”.
1578 “And you joined them”?
Reply “Yeah, we went up there to play, we just stopped watching and supervising the children, erm and then I think shortly after we got there, or as we were getting there, Gerry said that he was gonna go back and help Kate get the kids ready for bed and help Kate get the kids into bed, so he went then, erm and Matt, Dave and Russell carried on playing, I think with Dan who was the coach, erm and we, the children played on the slide and stuff for a bit and then we headed back into the apartments to get them ready and left the boys playing tennis”.
1578 “So what, what time would you have arrived at the tennis courts to watch them playing”?
Reply “I think it would probably have been about seven, maybe about ten past seven”. 1578 “And the only people not present would have been”?
Reply “Erm Kate and the twins and Madeleine weren’t there, I think they’d, I don’t think they were there anyway and I know that they’d left shortly, shortly, I think it was shortly before we arrived, cos I know they’d been there, I think when the boys had arrived to play tennis and Kate had taken the kids off to get them ready for bed, so I don’t think they were there when we got there, erm no”.
1578 “And then a short time later, Gerry departed”?
Reply “Yes”.
1578 “To the apartment to give assistance”?
Reply “Yeah, mmm yeah”.
1578 “Do you know what time that was”?
Reply “Erm maybe it was probably, you know maybe about twenty past seven, he didn’t really stay, I don’t remember him staying that much longer after we arrived there with the children, he obviously played a bit of tennis with the boys and then sort of decided to head off, yeah so it’s probably about twenty past seven, quarter past seven, something like that”.
01.01.58 1578 “So we’re obviously approaching now the critical period”.
Reply “Mmm”.
1578 “I’d like you to you know concentrate very hard and take yourself back and just relive everything you did from that point onwards, through the course of the evening”?
Reply “Yeah. Erm we went back to the apartments, erm I think err, we all headed off at the same time I think and erm, can’t remember whether that night E**a and, E**a might have had a bath in our apartment with G***e, not sure, I think it might have been that night, but we headed back, yeah probably about half seven, half seven, twenty to eight, which was kind of later than we would normally”.
1578 “Who’s we”?
Reply “Erm well G***e and I went back to our apartment and Jane went back with E**a and E**e to theirs and Diane and Fi and Lilly and Scarlet went up to theirs, erm”.
1578 “Leaving the men to continue”?
Reply “Yeah continue their tennis. Erm I mean it would have been about seven thirty, maybe even a bit later, maybe about twenty to eight, I mean it was certainly later than normal, cos normally because they’re in bed by half seven, erm went back to the apartment, I think E**a came and had a bath with G***e in our apartment, erm you know we often kind of went into each others apartments, sort of around bed time or just before, or just after, erm so I think E**a and G***e had a bath, erm and then I think we were reading books in the lounge area of our apartment and erm Matt came back from tennis”.
1578 “Who’s we, who’s reading books”?
Reply “Erm G***e and I and I think E**a was there as well, I can’t be certain about that though, whether E**a was there or not, erm but yeah, I mean G***e and I were reading and then Matt came back from tennis and you know we probably read another book or had a bit of a cuddle and then put G***e down, so she probably went down about, it was probably about eight o’clock that night, erm and then I had a shower and got ready for dinner and Matt did as well,


I could add more but I think by now it is obvious that it was not a 'memory' thing...they all remember different specifics and the reason it was so difficult to remember the couple of hours befoe they went to the tapas is a BIG reason I am convinced (along with many, many other discrepancies) that there was something they needed to hide.....

and that would be.........?

ETA more statement snippets


Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:16 am
I'm afraid I can't agree with a whole week of discrepancies to cover one hour (or so) on Thursday night.

The likelihood that nine (eight if you don't include Dianne, at least in early statements) people would create such confusion, pointing to possible 'lies' to cover for an evening that could be explained away easier if they were credible for the rest of the week, is not a possibility imo (at least not for that explanation).

For the past couple of years I have detailed their statements (still a long way to go) and discovered an enormous amount of discrepancies and curiosities (many that I don't post if it is possible they could be attributed to memory, regardless of being suspicious).

I am not sure how much of the information I have tried to communicate is understood or retained by others....or known.

If I sat for an entire day and tried to list everything that I have found, that would not be enough time.

I am not sure that others are aware of how, without trying to make things 'fit', the discrepancies explain how something happening earlier and the subsequent timeline of their schedule, that seem to be 'abnormal', starts to fall into place with an alternative explanation.

I do not look at controversial theories (involving others) and continue along a (relatively) very simple explanation...

Something happened to Maddie earlier in the week...(possibly about Monday).

They were 'all' devastated (not knowing who knew what and when).

The decision was made to cover up her death (the reason being MAJOR but I do not try to discover the 'why' at this point).

Kate, imo, needed time to grieve and was therefore very detached from the rest of the group for the week. (it is not confirmed that she went to the tapas on Tuesday night and on Wednesday (the late night where they stayed until 1.00am) Gerry arrived with ROB according to Jez Wilkin's statement and Kate was 'putting the children to bed'. (where was Jane? Why didn't she arrive with ROB?)

The 'blood'? was found under the tiles beneath the sofa (which had been moved?).

There was a lot of blood on the wall also and Rachael's 'resuscitation' comment may fit very well with this scenario and probably start to involve others by this point.

David Payne's statements lack details of his schedule for that week. Gerry doesn't mention much about Wednesday except to deny (as well as Kate) that there was a cot in their room, as claimed by the cleaner.

Lets not forget Mrs Fenn's statement of the crying and the 'flurry' of phone calls just before the crying (when they were supposed to be at the tapas until 11.00pm) and the very early calls (abnormal) in the morning. (the morning the cot was in their room)

Jane's entire Wednesday statements appear to refer to what happened on Tuesday. I have given it the benefit of the doubt, but it rained on Wednesday and should have helped her memory. OR was she trying to cover for Wednesday as she didn't want to explain what was really happening?

For such a 'considerate' group when dining at the tapas, it seems odd that they kept the waiters an hour after the end of their shift on Wednesday night....The last time they could make final arrangements (without Dianne being around?)

There must have been something important to discuss to be that inconsiderate.

Time to clean, time to grieve, time to find a (temporary) place for Madeleine's body.

The main 'challenge' brought up about an earlier death being impossible are Goncalo's comments and Catriona and the creche and other witnesses that saw her.

Witnesses....I have scrutinised all the statements that claim to have seen Madeleine during the week and all of them can be disputed, whether because they were mistaken or were non specific (see them all starting on page 12 of this thread).

Conclusion..there is no (relative) PROOF that she was seen after lunchtime on Sunday when seen by the cleaner's daughter outside their apartment.

Goncalo.......Goncalo makes it clear that he is not claiming his opinion, using only the data they have in the investigation (whether true or not?) He does not state that he believes Madeleine was alive prior to May 3rd only that the records (data) show it....He avoids answering the question directly, as to whether he thinks Madeleine may have died earlier.

Conclusion...Goncalo is limited in what he says and can only use the information available to him at the time he left. September 2007 This was all prior to the Rogatories and the information contained in them.

With Sofia's statement “My husband and I have never abandoned our daughters, or allowed paedophiles in our circle of friends." I'm sure, imo, his thoughts and opinions contain more than just an accident and 'Smith sighting'

Goncalo is a clever man...I believe him to know A LOT more than he wants the McCanns to be aware of.

That MAY include (after listening to their 'tapped' phone conversations?....information he cannot refer to..) that something happened to Madeleine earlier in the week....


Ultimately, my conclusions may only be relevant to myself.

No point in trying to convince others.

My objective is to show the information I have found so others can draw their own conclusions from it.

Credible opinions should be based on information and not from others' opinions.

If someone can look at all the discrepancies I have found and still continue to believe it was an accident and scenario acted out within an hour, then I respect their opinion.

For those that do not take the discrepancies into consideration and choose to make a scenario 'fit', I have to question their 'agenda' or how much they base their opinion on knowledge about the case or what others' suggest.

The truth is whats important....Whether I am 'right' or not, its what I believe and will continue to believe unless/until all the inconsistencies during the week can be explained.

There does not appear to be any possibility of that happening. imo



Midas wrote:
I wish HiDeHo had been working for the PJ in 2007 ........ :s_roses :s_roses


Me too!

I wonder if Goncalo would have invited me out to lunch for a quick beer?

I just love this comment from him...


<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Goncal ... 01692.html<!-- m -->

Quote:
G.A. – I don't drink whiskey. I drink beer at lunch time, if they had written that, they would have been right.

_________________

MIDAS
Oooooh ......... I can't wait to see Dr. Amaral doing the telly circuits. He sounds like he has our sense of humour ....... :s_cool :s_cool

And that will wind the holiday-makers up no end :s_laughat :s_laughat I bet GMc will be crawling around on his knees all the time, once he sees Dr. Amaral getting all the attention and sympathy that he used to get :s_rofl :s_rofl :s_rofl

It's a disarrrrrster. An arrrrrbsolute disarrrrrster. Oooooh the fury :s_rofl :s_rofl

HiDeHo wrote ........... 'No point in trying to convince others.
My objective is to show the information I have found so others can draw their own conclusions from it .........
If someone can look at all the discrepancies I have found and still continue to believe it was an accident and scenario acted out within an hour, then I respect their opinion ..........
For those that do not take the discrepancies into consideration and choose to make a scenario 'fit', I have to question their 'agenda' or how much they base their opinion on knowledge about the case or what others' suggest.'

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

I agree with every scrap of what you have shared with us ......... except the bit about respecting the opinions of people who think this could have been performed within an hour. I will try to respect such opinions ......... but I just find it unbelievable :s_biggrin :angel:



It works both ways Midas..

I cannot dispute something like the Smith sighting because I do not know all the information (though I am making an effort).

I am not familiar with all the phone records, so I cannot make a judgement on those that researched and have come to conclusions.

I am not familiar with the Guest records...

All I DO 'know' is that Madeleine died and as much as we prefer to look for 'comfortable' explanations, the 'fact' is that she was hidden (for some extraordinary reason) and to try to make it fit into a 'normal' scenario, although 'easier', it is FAR from normal, so anything is possible.



What we know...

Catriona was non specific about Madeleine in her first interview...apart from saying she was there all week except maybe Sunday morning

Whether Catriona's statements are scrutinised or not...the fact that she visited the McCanns in November disputes the credibility of her testimony.

The police issued the 'Diagram of events' and did not include he diagram that included the mini sail on Thursday and did not include it within the statements for Tuesday and Wednesday.

Those reasons alone create questions about the credibility of her statements.

Anyone can claim they were true but that does not prove they were true and/or correct.

harmony...I recall you saying that someone you 'knew' that posted in a forum, had a daughter that was with Madeleine in the creche...


<!-- l -->topic7774-40.html<!-- l -->
coppernob wrote:
harmony wrote:
Quote:
We were there last week, at the MW Club in PdL, with our .... who was with Maddy in the Mini Club.

HiDeHo I do not have the link to hand but it was on MumsNet at about 23:45 Sunday 6th May 2007. Both JT and CG were posting there, but this is a non-T9 mum of one of Maddie's lobster pals.


This one?

By lizmoo Sun 06-May-07 23:44:08
Please do not be judgemental, no one is a perfect parent. We were there last week, at the Mark Warner Club in Praira de Luz, with our daughter who was with Maddy in the Mini Club.

We commented on how "safe" the area felt, but on Thursday night the big bad world came to our safe haven. Please just pray that for whatever reason she was taken,Maddy is being kept safe and sound and will soon be returned.

All the parents there knew, that, but for the grace of god, it could of been their child. Were we all watched?

Many searched all night on Thursday and Friday, no one slept on Friday night. They say lightning doesn't strike twice, but when you are part of the press hysteria, helicopters whirring in the sky and sniffer dogs barking and see the torment of the parents and friends,fear sets in.

We are safely home, but that doesn't stop the anguish that all the Mark Warner guests feel for the McCann family.

Mark Warner were brilliant and the nannies exceptional, they see the children every day and must grow close. They are now caring for the McCann twins, family and friends.

The message board should stay, just so everyone can pray and send good vibes to that little girl somewhere alone in the Algarve. Hug your children and keep them close.


At the time I narrowed down the possibilities of who it could be..Naylor, Patel or Berry.

You said you 'knew' who it was. Have you been able to find out any more information since that might help be specific about Madeleine being at the creche during the week.

Does JT still post and forgive me...Who is CG?

I am looking for ANY snippet that would show Madeleine alive during the week..ANY day....(after Sunday)

Did they have tennis on Tuesday or Monday?

When did they go to the beach..

What about the ice cream trip?

I am looking for anything that may show Madeleine alive.....



it can only be concluded that 4 Nannies (all without statements in the files) took an early leave.

<!-- m -->http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/CREC ... age104.jpg<!-- m -->


roisin
From my notes:

13 MAY 2007
Catriona Baker moved from the Ocean Club by Mark Warner. (CATRIONA BAKER STATEMENT)

13 MAY 2007
Charlotte Pennington saw "mystery man" (who she'd seen talking to Robert Murat at the Baptista supermarket on 4 May 2007) at the Faro Airport when she was returning to England. Described as "between 27 and 35, with medium build, very dark eyes and a Portuguese or Spanish look" (Source: "I saw Murat at Maddie flat" The Sun 03 Dec 2007) <!-- m -->http://www.mccannfiles.com/id70.html<!-- m -->

JULY 04 2007

Sarah Williamson left

JULY 11 2007
MARK WARNER CHILDCARE STAFF Apparent "mass exit"

Early leave taken by:

Rhiannon Groves
Elizabeth Mills
Mark Shutt
Sarah-Jane Tily

ALL other staff also left on this date other than: Alise Stanley (whose arrival date was July 4, 2007) and Chris Unsworth (Windsurf Instructor)



January's post

Day 68, 10th July 2007
Kate and I both managed early morning runs today- it is definitely the time of day to it with the high temperatures in the middle of
summer. Getting some aerobic exercise certainly helps us feel
better physically and psychologically which helps maintain our
positive attitude.
The investigation into Madelienes disapperance remains very active and we note that the Portuguese police are conducting a series of interviews today and tomorrow.


Day 69 11th July 2007 (mass exodus day?)
This morning got off to a bad start when we were called, even before the twins were awake, by a reputable press agency saying that a body had been found and asking if it was true. It is very disappointing that this person did not check out the source of this rumour before contacting our representatives. Such calls and rumours are distressing even though we know if it does not come through an official source not to place much emphasis on it.

The Portuguese police interviewed three of our friends again today, to clarify points in their initial statements. As most of you will know, there is a lot of misleading information being published, both in the press and on the internet, about the events leading up to Madeleine's disappearance and the criminal investigation. We would like to give more information, especially about inaccurate and hurtful reports, but cannot for fear of prejudicing any subsequent court proceedings. The Portuguese police have made it clear to us that all witnesses should not divulge or discuss the information they have provided. Kate and I are, of course not party to all of the
information coming into the inquiry for sound operational reasons.

Similarly a lot of people have asked to learn more about Madeleines likes and dislikes.
This is information which we have been advised not to distribute publicly because of the risk of it being used in potential extortion attempts. The arrests recently in The Netherlands and Spain show that such information could be used negatively in the wrong hands.


Many of the issues regarding the creche may not be solely about Madeleine's disappearance.

BBC Whistleblower had just completed and investigation into MW creche in Egypt less than two weeks before Madeleine's disappearance.

MW were already aware of the issues but although it was an 'abduction' and, therefore (at that time anyway) not involving the creche, they may have issued sudden damage control because of the attention.

I have said before that I think changes and additions to the creche records may have been done to 'protect' MW from having a finger pointed at them..

Who knows whether the nannies ever read the sign in sheets (giving GM the ability to 'add' what he needed.

Catriona throughout the week would be involved with the sporadic entrance and exit of 7 (I believe) children.

Each day would not consist of making sure 'Maddie' was there, any more than the other children that were dropped off and picked up with no particular regularity.

Parents may sign the sheet outside the door...We don't know.

After being faced with the 'abduction' and seeing no connection, the records may have been signed by Catriona when (possibly) MW suggested more vigilance.

Gerry and Kate would have insisted that Madeleine was there all week and Catriona may have second guessed herself about the days etc.

'If Gerry and Kate says she was there then she must have been' scenario...and fill in the sheets to keep her job with MW...

Anything of that nature could be possible...

Catriona was there at the wrong place at the wrong time and as the abduction had nothing to do with the creche she, maybe, tried to correct mistakes because of the pressure from MW and the worry of a lost job....

Of course Madeleine was there...."at no time did the little girl seem sad or unsatisfied, having produced no comments whatsoever about being angry, sad about anyone or discontented at anything. -She equally refers that Madeleine was an extremely obedient child, who never left the group. She was not a child that would speak to strangers."


(NOTE: Not even on the boat trip when she was scared a couple of days before the statements?)

Quote:

<!-- l -->post1452.html#p1452<!-- l -->
Catriona Rogatory
There was one occasion, on Thursday, 3rd of May 2007, around 10h30 in the morning, when she cried on board of the speed boat that would take them out to the yellow boats in the sea where all the children in the group were going to sail. She was scared and a bit fearful and sat on my lap, crying “I am scared, I am scared.” We only use the speed boats to carry the children out to the small yellow boats. When we arrived at the other yellow boat she was already happy again. She sailed in the small boat and even though some children had the opportunity to return to the port, she stayed for a second ride as she appeared to be having a good time. Jane Tanner’s daughter E*** was also in my group and they both played together and shared some intimacy. Despite from being a happy child at the club, she always seemed very content when she saw her parents. Madeleine was not as worried anymore on the speed boat, when we returned to land.-




<!-- m -->http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressr ... ower.shtml<!-- m -->
Quote:
Viewers will be shocked to see how Imogen Willcocks, a 21-year-old undercover BBC journalist with no experience of looking after children and no professional qualifications, is employed to look after young children under the age of five by two nurseries in Britain, and a leading British holiday company. Furthermore, they will see her approved as a registered childminder by Ofsted.



Imogen's undercover filming takes place at Just Learning in Cambourne (near Cambridge) and Buttons nursery in west London, as well as a Mark Warner holiday resort in Dahab, Egypt – an upmarket company that markets itself as offering "award-winning childcare".



The undercover footage in the programme reveals:



A failure to make criminal record and reference checks – The companies that featured in the programme all employed Imogen to look after young children without obtaining CRB (Criminal Records Bureau) checks, or speaking to any of her referees.



Adult to child ratios are not met – The required adult tochild ratios were not always met – on several occasions at Buttons nursery, Imogen is seen left in sole charge of up to 13 pre-school children. At Mark Warner, an extra child arrives at the crèche but no one knows who she is and, on one occasion at Just Learning, Imogen and another member of staff are left caring for 23 children. This was despite complaints from members of staff concerned about child welfare and safety.



Health & Safety compromised – The BBC reporter was given no practical training to ensure that she could deal with emergency situations whilst looking after the children. And the health and safety of the children was compromised on a number of occasions –

(...)

At Mark Warner, the BBC reporter was asked to accompany and supervise young children on a sailing trip without enough safety helmets for all the children, and take young children into the water without any assessment of her swimming ability. Also, at the Mark Warner resort in Egypt, a room listening service designed to check on children every 30 minutes whilst their parents are out, was found to be inappropriate because the staff could only listen at the door – they couldn't see if the children were all right or go into the rooms. Indeed, a Mark Warner nanny told the BBC undercover journalist that before the journalist arrived in April 07, a girl under the age of five had escaped through the window of a room and was found wandering around the complex within metres of the pool.


No training – No or negligible training was given to the undercover BBC reporter in any of her jobs. This is despite the fact that Mark Warner, for example, told her that she would receive training before starting the job.



Illegal working on tourist visas – Mark Warner employees at the resort were found working illegally on tourist visas because, according to one member of staff, Mark Warner are "too cheap to cough up and pay for [work] visas".

BBC undercover reporter Imogen Willcocks worked at:

- Mark Warner resort in Dahab, Egypt between 2 and 14 April 2007.

A second undercover BBC reporter, Ashley Kennedy, followed up Imogen Willcock's findings by working undercover at Mark Warner's La Plagne ski resort, in France, for two days from 17 December 2007 to see if procedures had been tightened since the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from a Mark Warner resort in Portugal in May 2007. Again, she was employed by Mark Warner and working at the resort prior to her references and a CRB check being obtained
(...)
Mark Warner resorts are not required to work to Ofsted regulations.

Written statement from Mark Warner in response to the findings in the BBC undercover investigation:



"It's company policy that all childcare staff employed by Mark Warner must supply two references and submit a form to check their criminal record. There were clearly two occasions where we failed to do this. That is completely unacceptable and we apologise. We have now reviewed and strengthened our procedures for hiring staff.



"We take the safety and security of children in our care extremely seriously. It is the reason why we replaced our very popular room listening service with a drop in crèche.



"Guests who've been on a Mark Warner holiday consistently tell us that the quality of our childcare is high.



"Eighty-nine out of the 93 nannies we currently employ have a professional childcare qualification. And every single one of our water sports instructors has a professional qualification."



Mark Warner never responded to the allegations regarding the lack of safety helmets for the children. Nor the fact that the BBC undercover reporter, and many other Mark Warner staff, were working illegally in Egypt.






Quote:
Mark Warner operates at the top of the holiday market, charging up to £8,000 for two weeks abroad for a family of four.
It makes a point of offering "award-winning" childcare.
That award-winning care didn't extend to checking my CV, contacting my references, doing a criminal records check or even asking to see some basic ID. Again, I could have been anyone.
I worked at Mark Warner's swanky Hilton resort in Dahab, Egypt, where the luxurious hotel rooms are built to resemble a traditional whitewashed Arab village.
Despite being promised two days' training at the interview, I was thrown straight in with a group of toddlers.
Once, there were two of us looking after 13 children - when Mark Warner's own regulations state there should be no more than six per adult.
When I asked about my training, the manager just said: "You don't get official training as such. It's very relaxed, very laid-back here."

This is unlikely to be the approach parents think they are paying for.
Next, I was asked to supervise the children on the beach. Again, no one had checked if I had any swimming or rescue qualifications.
Even more worrying, I had to take children out on a boat without enough safety gear for all of them. When I raised the issue with my manager, he told me to go ahead with the boat trip anyway.
Also, for such a prestigious company with an upmarket reputation, Mark Warner has a very cavalier attitude to the employment laws of the countries where it operates, and is not controlled by Ofsted.
Like many of its staff in Dahab, I was there on a tourist visa.
Mark Warner should have paid for work permits but instead had us break Egyptian law on their behalf.
We were told we should just lie and say we were there on holiday, but Egypt is not the kind of country-where you want to end up in prison.
Three weeks after I returned from Egypt, the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from a Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz in Portugal made headlines around the world.
No one blamed the company or its staff for the little girl's disappearance, but given the case, I assumed the company would toughen up its vetting of nannies.
To test this out, a BBC colleague applied for a Mark Warner childcare job and was sent to an upmarket French ski resort.
Her false CV went unchecked and, months after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, the company still didn't do a CRB check before she started work.
Later, I recounted my experiences to Mark Warner's managing director.
He refused to be interviewed but issued a statement that said: "It is company policy that all childcare staff employed by Mark Warner must supply two references and submit a form to check their criminal record.
"There were clearly two occasions where we failed to do this. That is completely unacceptable and we apologise.
"We have now reviewed and strengthened our procedures."


Read more: <!-- m -->http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... z138b5tCZl<!-- m -->


ETA...I am not suggesting that Catriona was incapable of looking afte the children...only that because of this article, MW would put pressure on them (after the disappearance) to make sure all the records were correct etc.










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Re:BEFORE 5.30pm Thursday or AFTER - Opinion HiDeHo

Date Posted:12/19/2010 7:25 PMCopy HTML

I have always felt there is 'something' odd about the ice cream trip on the activity sheet, which was just after their return from the beach for the 5 ice creams on Tuesday lunchtime.

My understanding is the ice cream trip on the activity sheet was a trip to the beach..(an 'extra' that was paid seperately? )
Image

In the 'Diagram of Events' that was created (apparently) using Catriona's statement she claimed the beach trips were only 15.30 -16.30 Tuesday and Wednesday.
Image

(ETA- The above diagram shows Wednesday but the comments for the beach were the same for Tuesday)

What happened to the 'ice cream trip'? or am I mistaken and the ice cream trip was not a trip to the beach? (travel forums for MW Luz claimed the ice cream trip for the children was 'special'.)

I have always felt there was a link and that the McCanns trip to the beach for '5' ice creams (to show Madeleine alive?) was something to do with the immediate return for the ice cream trip on the creche activity sheet...So far I haven't found a reason or a link. (but always kept in mind that Catriona claims they accompanied the creche trips on more than one occasion)

Claims of three trips to the beach shows it was Tuesday Thursday (from Wednesday) and Friday (according to the sheet)

Wednesday at that time was 'Olympics grass time'.

Why didn't Catriona claim about the ice cream trip at 2.30pm at the beach or was it somewhere else they went?


I just find it odd that it was cold and they returned and dropped her off at 2.30pm just in time for her to return to the beach for ice cream again...

Can anyone confirm WHERE the ice cream trip was taken?



I don't think you have confused me bramble! :s_wacko

I agree with what you are saying, but also I have to consider WHY the coincidence of the timing.

From what I understand, in 2007 they did not pay extra for the afternoon creche but paid for extra trips etc. If that is the case they would have known.

As I mentioned, I have not seen a link to 'why' but I have kept it on hold for now..

This was Tuesday...
...the maintenance men fixed the broken shutters....
...they showed Kate how to use the washing machine...
...Rachael saw Madeleine play tennis and claims it was the last time she saw her.....
...ROB, Jez and Gerry walked to the creche...
...Gerry signed Madeleine out but ROB did not sign Ella out...
...In the afternoon Gerry signed Madeleine in, ROB didn't sign Ella in(CAT signed Ella in at the same time as Gerry)
...Madeleine wasn't signed out...ROB signed Ella out.
Quiz night....
...Najoya saw noone leave the table for an hour
...Najoya did not remember seeing Kate or DP
...Empty setting at table (ROB?)(Kates diary says ROBs food BROUGHT up - indicating she was there?)
...Kate received flurry of phone calls between 10.16 and 10.27

...Approx three minutes later Mrs Fenn heard crying for one and quarter hours..
...Early morning calls the following morning
...Cleaner saw cot in room... both Kate and Gerry deny it was there.

In between all this there is a trip to the beach with buggys (that they supposedly didn't have) with a description of the 5 ice creams (why would you mention how many ice creams if it wasn't to establish how many people were present?) and a guitarist described in detail.

There is SOMETHING about that day and that trip to the beach that I haven't figured out yet....

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Creche ... 62790.html<!-- m -->



Just for the record..

My opinion on the overall statements for the week...

Monday seems to be a bit of a mystery.

Tuesday is packed with 'info'

Wednesday seems to be avoided (JT claimed thae activities for Wednesday but seems she rolled it over from Tuesday)

Apart from Dianne mentioning seeing the McCanns at breakfast and Rachael sick and home all day so Matt went for a run with Kate at lunchtime, there is not much else...

Considering it rained that day, one would think it would be easy to remember what they did...

As I am one that believes something happened to Madeleine earlier in the week, if I had to guess on a day, I would say that something happened on Monday...no-one seems to mention much about Monday (and the odd timing, in and out of the creche in 15 mins)...Shutters broken by Gerry (although they claim Sunday and Fixed Monday...Documents show fixed Tuesday - memory or day rolled back?)

Tuesday was, maybe, panic time...Maybe Madeleine sick...efforts to cover the day with minutiae...Kate 'missing'. - Mrs. Fenn - phone calls - DP and ROB not at tapas

Wednesday was preparation for how it was to be dealt with (maybe removing Madeleine's body or a resuscitation attempt)..Kate did not arrive at tapas with Gerry. Gerry and ROB arrived together (according to Jez) - Was Kate there at all that night? - Waiters kept waiting and hour after their shift while some of the friends continued chatting. (important conversation?)

Thursday was used to create a day that could be explained (for anticipated statements.)

Above are just random thoughts using an overall impression from 'details' I have researched.

_________________
roisin

Until it is clarified, it certainly seems to me that when the McCanns were out early in the morning of May 4th, someone else may just have been out there as well.

The timelines HiDeHo has laboriously created are ever so helpful in so very many ways and 5:00 AM to 6:00 AM on May 4 just pops out as suspicious IMO. It is the only time period during which NOTHING is reported.

I do not think it is likely that Kate would have been on her phone while she was out with Gerry in the early morning. The timelines seem to me to indicate that the McCanns were actually out between 5 AM and 6 AM rather than the later time they claim:

*******************************************

04 MAY 2007 FRIDAY
04:00 AM - 05:00 AM

*******************************************

04:00 AM George Crossland went home from Ocean Club (George Robin Crossland Manager 7 May 2007 Statement)

04:00 AM (approx.) Gerry went out at about 4 am with David Payne hoping to find something. (Source: "Victims of the Rumour Mill?" Sunday Times 9 Sept. 2007)

04:00 AM "At four in the morning, Jane was asking a member of GNR: “Have you cut off all the roads already???? Minutes later, Gerry, given the fact that the priest didn’t appear, asked another element of GNR to show him the way to the church." Madeleine's father was also seen, in the early hours of May 4, near the temple with another British man who was with him on vacation. (Source: CM 12/9 - verify) (Source: SOL - verify)

04:03 AM (04.03.44) Kate McCann received text from Jon Corner (Mobile)

04:05 AM (04.05.40) Kate McCann sent text to Jon Corner (Mobile)

04.12 AM (04.12.33) Kate McCann sent text to Jon Corner (Mobile)

04.14 AM (04.14.44) Gerry McCann sent text to XXX

04.19 AM (04.19.02) Gerry McCann received text from XXX (Possibly Sandy Cameron mobile)

04.20 AM (04.20.34) Gerry McCann received text from brother John McCann (mobile)

04:22 AM (04.22.12) Kate McCann received text from Eileen McCann

04:30 AM John Hill said that the search he organised ended at approx this time. Elements from the PJ and GNR reinforcements with sniffer dogs were still at the scene. (John Hill Manager 6 June 2007 Statement)

04:30 AM Emma Knight left the McCann's new apartment - last to leave. (Emma Louise Knight 30 April 2008 Statement To Leicestershire Police)

04:30 AM (04.30) Ocean Club landline call to landline of church in Lagos (Praça Infante D. Henrique) 8 seconds - likely got recorded message. May have been O'Brien attempting to reach priest.

04:31 AM (04.31.30) Kate McCann received text from Jon Corner (Mobile)

04:36 AM (04.36.30) Kate McCann received call from Matthew Wright. Call lasted 28 minutes, 45 seconds. (Call therefore ended at 05:04 AM)

04:52 AM (04.52.16) Kate McCann sent text to Jon Corner (Mobile) (Whilst still speaking to Matthew Wright?)

04:55 AM (04.55) Kate McCann replied to Eileen's text (Whilst still speaking to Matthew Wright?)


*******************************************

04 MAY 2007 FRIDAY
MORNING HOURS 5 AM TO 6 AM

*******************************************



*******************************************


04 MAY 2007 FRIDAY
MORNING HOURS 6 AM TO 7 AM

*******************************************

06:00 AM "Later, at about 6am, the McCanns went out alone and walked around the scrubland on the outskirts of the village, holding hands and calling Madeleine’s name. There was nobody else around and they felt utterly alone." (Source: "Victims of the Rumour Mill?" Sunday Times 9 Sept. 2007)

06:00 AM "No sleep, Gerry and I started looking through the streets around 06.00 as it was starting to get light. Nobody around. Why not? Desperate." (KATE MCCANN DIARY)

06:02 AM (06.02.08) Kate McCann received text from Susan Healy mobile

06:04 AM (06.04.11) Kate McCann sent text to Susan Healy's mobile

06:05 AM (06.05.29) Kate McCann called Amanda’s home landline (~11 minutes) (702 seconds)

06:08 AM (06.08.17) Kate McCann received text from Jon Corner (Mobile)

06:18 AM (06.18.17) Kate McCann sent text to Jon Corner (Mobile)

06:26 AM (06.26.30) Rachael Oldfield received call from XXX (~7 minutes) (447 seconds)

06:34 AM (06.34.53) Kate McCann received text from XXX

06:36 AM SUNRISE

06:38 AM (06.38.39) Rachael Oldfield received call from XXX (~4 minutes) (262 seconds)

06:39 AM (06.39.38) Kate McCann sent text to Jon Corner (Mobile)

06:47 AM (06.47.42) Kate McCann received text from Jon Corner (Mobile)

06:59 AM (06.59.12) Kate McCann received text from Jon Corner (Mobile)

06:59 AM (06.59.44) Kate McCann sent text to Jon Corner (Mobile)

06:05 AM (06.05) Kate McCann called Amanda’s home landline

*******************************************



Fiona claims she walked to the creche that lunchtime (from tapas area) with Kate to pick Madeleine and Scarlet up.

<!-- l -->topic40.html<!-- l -->
Quote:
FP Yeah, that, that day, erm, I actually picked Scarlet up with Kate, erm, and I’m trying to think what the time, the times were

FP Kate and I walked from the Tapas area over to the main reception, (...) and she picked up Madeleine and I picked up Scarlet and then we walked back together

FP You say they turned up at your apartment?”
Reply
“No, no this was down by the, this was down on the sun loungers outside the, where the pool”.
1485
“Oh right, you were downstairs”.
Reply
“And it was just about time to go and pick up the kids, so we sort of sat about ten minutes and then, so Kate and I wandered off down to the, erm, Reception to get the kids, erm, Scarlet, Madeleine and Gerry and Dave went and got, went to the toddler club to get the twins and L***”.


Kate claims she walked to the creche after she had been to the apartment.

<!-- l -->post411.html#p411<!-- l -->
KATE:
Quote:
KATE Afterwards, she is not sure, they went back together to the apartment until close to 12:15 when she went to Madeleine’s creche to pick her up, together with Fiona Payne. She signed the register and went to the twins’ creche with the intention of picking them up, she thought she would meet Gerry there, not knowing if he already had the twins with him

Together with the three children they went to the apartment for lunch, with food bought at the supermarket. This would be around 12:35/12:40. They ate sandwiches, mainly she and Gerry, and the children maybe ate pasta. Lunch lasted around 20 minutes


Gerry said HE remembers picking Madeleine up that day as he used the short cut.

(The creche records show it was Kate)

<!-- l -->post524.html#p524<!-- l -->

Quote:
GERRY At 12H00, together with KATE, as he recalls it, she made lunch and he went to get MADELEINE. He thinks that it was KATE who took the twins home. Since it was he who went to collect MADELEINE, he is sure he used the short-cut.


Fiona claims they were sat on the loungers and went from ther to pick up the children...and Gerry and Dave went to pick up the twins and their oldest daughter.

Kate claims she went back with Gerry to the apartment and then walked with Fiona to pick the children up...then went to the twins creche thinking she would see Gerry there...

Gerry claims they went back to the apartment at 12, Kate made lunch and HE went to pick up Madeleine and Kate took the twins home.

This would be a recent memory to them and for Fiona was maybe one of the last (if not THE last time she saw Madeleine).

Why the blatant contradictions in their statements?

_________________
Thinking of Ironside this Christmas Season <!-- l -->
post161174.html#p161174


JeanneD'Arc
Image


Red Dots = Pizzerias
Red Lines = possible jogging routes towards N125
Blue Line = Smith walk
Mauve Line = Path to Burgau

Praia da Luz has an elaborate one way street system. Going into town coming from the east you have to go via Rua do Ramalhete westwards right into town center almost to the church to then take Rua Direita back to the East. But there is always the possibility of taking small sideroads to avoid this detour.




I am still trying to find a link between something happening earlier in the week and the Smith Sighting.

Maybe someone could make a suggestion.

I look at the discrepancies below...certainly not all the discrepancies that I have found so far, and wonder how they can be explained.

Most, if not all, happened before Thursday evening, leading me to believe there was something amis before that time.

Phone records deleted tend to confirm something they did not want known prior to Thursday evening...

I am looking for suggestions because this list should take a lot of explaining!


Discrepancy Questions..

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Discre ... 43842.html<!-- m -->

1 Why did the Paynes and Matthew Oldfield claim to have passed each other in very different places on the way to the tapas and Dianne Webster claimed to have not seen him until her Rogatory when she remembered because Dave and Fiona had reminded her.

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Discre ... 33711.html<!-- m -->

2 Why did Rachael claim the last time she saw Madeleine was at mini tennis on Thursday. Madeleine's group played on Tuesday. Is Tuesday the last time she saw her?

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Discre ... 33711.html<!-- m -->

3 Why did Rachael describe the mini tennis as played on Court 1, when the records show it was Court 2. (the police seemed to find it important by questioning her)

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Discre ... 27328.html<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Discre ... 36815.html<!-- m -->

4 Why did Catriona claim that Gerry wasn't at high tea on May 3rd and that she thought he was at tennis, when both Kate and Gerry claim he was there.

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Discre ... 27328.html<!-- m -->

5 Why did Gerry claim to have entered the front door and opened the patio doors for Kate who was carrying Madeleine back from high tea on May 3rd. Kate says they all went in through the front doors.

6 Why did they give different accounts of Madeleine asking about why they didn't come to her. (She asked her father, she asked Kate, it was the twins crying, it was her crying etc)

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Discre ... 33711.html<!-- m -->

7 Why did Gerry claim that he picked Madeleine up from the creche on Thursday lunch (he remembered taking the short cut) when Kate and Fiona claim they walked together. Kate says she went to the apartment first, Fiona said they left from the pool area.

8 Why did the police compile the Diagram of Events according to Catriona telling them that she only went to the beach twice, on Tuesday and Wednesday afternoon, not mentioning the mini sail.

9 Why did they not release Thursday diagram or twins creche record for Thursday morning?

10 Why, after the family's trip to the beach Tuesday lunchtime (for 5 ice creams) did they drop Madleine off at the creche in time for her to go on another trip (to the beach?) for ice cream trip

11 Why did Catriona claim they went to the beach 15.30 to 16.30 on Tuesday and Wednesday and did not mention the ice cream trip, 2.30pm-3.30pm Tuesday according to the Activity sheet.

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Discre ... 36731.html<!-- m -->

12 Why did Kate receive a 'flurry' of phone calls (between 10.16pm and 10.27pm) in the 15 minutes prior to Mrs Fenn hearing the crying Was she at the tapas as she claims they did not arrive back until 11.00pm?

13 Why did Kate make (unusual) very early morning calls to her friend (Amanda, her husband is a pathologist) on Wednesday morning?

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Discre ... 36731.html<!-- m -->

14 Why did Najoua the quiz mistress claim that no-one (including Gerry) left the table during the time she was there (9.00pm-9.50pm?) and she does not recall seeing Kate or David Payne at the table. Just an empty place setting.

15 Why did Catriona claim to have seem Jane and David at the beach when she was at the mini sail. Why would she have known David?

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Discre ... 33711.html<!-- m -->

16 Where are the pictures of Ella taken at the mini sail and why (with only a few children) was Madeleine not in the picture.

17 Did Catriona take the children to the mini sail alone? Why is there no statement from the other nannies to say they went?

18 Why did the police not interview Alice Stanley and Chris Unsworth, the mini sail instructors?

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Discre ... 80252.html<!-- m -->

19 Why is there not one credible sighting of Madeleine after Sunday lunchtime when she was seen by the cleaner's daughter leaving the apartment for lunch at the Paynes?

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16825.html<!-- m -->

20 Why did Kate claim the shutters were broken on Sunday and the maintenance fixed them on Monday when records shows it was Tuesday. Why did they need to show her how to use the washing machine?

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16825.html<!-- m -->

21 Why did the cleaner claim there was a cot in the parents bedroom on Wednesday morning and both Gerry and Kate denied it was there?

22 Why did Madeleine's bed not show signs of being used, when it was made up by the cleaner on Wednesday morning and should have been slept in Wednesday night as well as Thursday evening? (the other bed was messy)

23 Why did the pictures from the apartment show a (relatively) normal amount of clothes left around when the cleaners daughter said that her mother had mentioned to her about the mess of their apartment (indicating something abnormal).

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16825.html<!-- m -->

24 Why did Matthew Oldfield claim to have been sick because of what he had eaten on the plane, and yet suggested that Rachael's sickness on Wednesday may have been the same as his.

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16802.html<!-- m -->

25 Why is there very little information regarding the week from David Payne's statements?

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16781.html<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16817.html<!-- m -->

26 Why did the police question Fiona about the time after the Paraiso vist and then push her to admit that she didn't know what David was doing between 6.00pm and 7.00pm?

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16781.html<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16817.html<!-- m -->

27 Why did David claim to have arrived back at the apartment approx 8.00pm when Fiona claims he was there at 7.10 (while he was 'supposedly' playing tennis at the Mens Social')

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16781.html<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16817.html<!-- m -->

28 Why did Kate claim that David didn't enter the apartment when David claims to have entered and described the children at length?

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16781.html<!-- m -->

29 Why did Rachael claim that Ella may have been given a bath at their apartment on Thursday evening?

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/ALL-TI ... 16825.html<!-- m -->

30 Why was there a lot of 'avoidance of specifics' and 'days rolled over' in the statements?

There is more, but thats all for now...

Food for thought? (especially considering most of it is earlier than 5.30pm May 3rd)

_________________


Fatima's statement is, imo, the only credible witness statement that saw Madeleine.

The time is specific according to her afternoon off.

She is right outside the McCanns apartment (where her mother cleaned)

She describes them going up to 5H with bread and plates indicating (correctly, according to statements) that they were having lunch in that apartment. (Paynes)

She sees Gerry closing the door.

Although it is possible that Madeleine had two pairs of runners, it may also be possible that the 'lights' were not apparent in photos.

She had no reason to know they claimed to have had lunch in the Paynes apartment so I find this witness very credible.

Just my opinion though parapono.

<!-- l -->post184.html#p184<!-- l -->
Quote:
Date : 2007: 05: 08

Name: Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada

She has a fixed day off on Tuesdays and had a day off on May 1st (national holiday) as well Sunday afternoon 29th April.

She had the opportunity to observe the photos of Madeleine that were being circulated everywhere and has no hesitation in confirming that she saw the child before her disappearance in the company of her siblings and mother and father, although in the latter case she only observed him from a distance.

She states that this took place on Sunday 29th April, just before she finished her morning work shift (13.30) as she had the afternoon off that day. At about 13.15 she went to help her mother, who was cleaning apartment I of the same block (5) situated on the first floor. She clearly remembers seeing the girl accompanied by her siblings and mother leave their apartment (5 A) and walk to the stairs leading to the floor above. She was very close to them at a distance of about 1 metre, observing their movements for a few moments because she was charmed by them. Madeleine led the way with a plate (perhaps plastic) in her hand bearing a piece of bread. As regards the clothes she was wearing she only remembers a skirt but cannot recall its description. She noted, because she thought them nice, the type of shoes she was wearing, tennis shoes, light in colour she thinks, which had little lights along the soles, which lit up each time she stepped on the ground. Her siblings followed behind her, wearing the same king of shoes and each holding a piece of bread in their hands, their mother followed behind them without holding their hands. She seems to remember that the mother was also carrying a plate. Moments afterwards, perhaps the time it took to close the apartment door, the father came out and also headed to the apartment upstairs. When asked, she does not remember whether the father pulled the door closed or locked it with a key.

After she chatted to her mother about there being many children in the apartments, she had the idea that the family in 5H were friends of Madeleine’s family who were staying in 5 A.
She never cleaned any of these apartments referred to as they were allocated to her mother. Her mother never mentioned anything strange to her, either before or after the girl’s disappearance that could be related to the disappearance. The only comment she remembered concerned the clutter in the apartments, mainly clothing which was left all around the place. She thinks that her mother cleaned the apartments in that block on Monday and Wednesday (02-05).



Just noting a little snippet after watching the documentary.

Thanks xklamation for the video with subtitles!
<!-- m -->http://www.blip.tv/file/2103407<!-- m -->

When discussing the bed, and cuddlecat laying at the top, it is said that there was "no indication of Madeleine having slept in it".

If Goncalo Amaral's theory is that she woke and went to the sofa to look out of the window and fell, why would he claim in the video that it does not show Madeleine had slept in it (since the cleaner came the morning before?)

Image

Is it possible that his theory is limited to what has been told in statements but his thoughts may lead elsewhere?



Another thing I notice in the documentary is that all the witnesses that would have seen Madeleine were interviewed and yet two of the main witnesses for that day, in my opinion. would have been Alice Stanley and Chris Unsworth from the sailing trip.

It is mentioned somewhere that there was no need to get their statements.

Could that have been because there was no sailing lesson that day (as per the discussion regarding the discrepancies in the Creche times diagrams, <!-- l -->post147966.html?hilit=diagram#p147966<!-- l --> ) or have their statements been witheld?

I'm wondering if the former is true, as the diagrams regarding the sailing trip are not in the files released and in Catrionas comments they have used for the Diagrams she only states Tuesday and Wednesday at the beach.

Image

Image


Jeanne D'Arc

Alice and Chris were interviewed "informally", whatever that means. It is mentioned in the files but nothing more.

What always struck me as unbelievable is, that the creche supervisor could not recall when the sailing outing was. In fact there is NOBODY confirming Cat's statement of the date of the sailing besides some of the Tapasniks. How can that be?

<!-- m -->http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/S ... MATION.htm<!-- m -->
Quote:
An informal and individual conversation was held with the following witnesses after having examined all involvement relevant to the current investigation, it was found that the following reports do not imply anything of significance:

- John Hill, MW Resort General Manager at the OC, born on 04/10/1976, resident in Espiche, who arrived in Portugal for the first time on 4th March, 2006.

- Nathan D***** S*****, Waterfront Manager (recreation company ? boat trips, of which he is the manager) at the OC, resident in Luz, having arrived in Portugal on 15th March 2007, immediately entering into the functions described above. This is his first time in Portugal whether for leisure or work purposes.

- Lauren D****** ? from West Sussex, Sailing instructor at the OC, arrived in Portugal on 21st March 2007 for the first time.

- Sebastian G*******, from Derbyshire, Sports Instructor at the OC, arrived in Portugal for the first time on 21st March 2007.

- Alice S*******, from Cambridge, Sailing Instructor at the OC, arrived in Portugal for the first time on 21st March 2007.

- Fraser N****, Water sports instructor at the OC, arrived in Portugal for the time on 21st April 2007.- Benjamin W******, from Gloucester, employee of the OC in Luz (residence unknown, apartment hired by the resort).

- Christopher U******, from Leeds, employee of the OC in Luz, (residence unknown, apartment hired by the resort).

- Stephen C****** from Bristol, employee of the OC in Luz, (residence unknown, apartment hired by the resort).

- Robert C***, from Doncaster, Maintenance Driver, arrived in Portugal for the first time on 18th May 2007.

_________________
<!-- m -->
http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.com<!-- m -->




Just bumping a previous post

Quote:
I have always felt there is 'something' odd about the ice cream trip on the activity sheet, which was just after their return from the beach for the 5 ice creams on Tuesday lunchtime.

My understanding is the ice cream trip on the activity sheet was a trip to the beach..(an 'extra' that was paid seperately? )
Image

In the 'Diagram of Events' that was created (apparently) using Catriona's statement she claimed the beach trips were only 15.30 -16.30 Tuesday and Wednesday.
Image

(ETA- The above diagram shows Wednesday but the comments for the beach were the same for Tuesday)

What happened to the 'ice cream trip'? or am I mistaken and the ice cream trip was not a trip to the beach? (travel forums for MW Luz claimed the ice cream trip for the children was 'special'.)

I have always felt there was a link and that the McCanns trip to the beach for '5' ice creams (to show Madeleine alive?) was something to do with the immediate return for the ice cream trip on the creche activity sheet...So far I haven't found a reason or a link. (but always kept in mind that Catriona claims they accompanied the creche trips on more than one occasion)

Claims of three trips to the beach shows it was Tuesday Thursday (from Wednesday) and Friday (according to the sheet)

Wednesday at that time was 'Olympics grass time'.

Why didn't Catriona claim about the ice cream trip at 2.30pm at the beach or was it somewhere else they went?


I have many questions regarding the Diagram of events and the activity timetable.

It gets very confusing but I find the details very important and very 'telling'

Activity Sheet
1) Why does the sheet claim mini tennis on Monday, when Georgina the tennis coach claims it was Tuesday for Madeleine's group.

2) From what I understand, there were three trips to the beach on the activity sheet.

Tuesday 2.30 - 430pm - Ice Cream trip/ Build a city Beach play
Wednesday 10.30 - 11.00am - mini sail (Moved to Thursday because of rain?)
Friday 11.00am - Midday - Sand Sculptures Beach Play

The coloured blocks appear to be the times that Catriona used in her statement with her claim of changing the day for the mini sail because of rain changed to blue.

Wednesday afternoon from 3.30-4.30pm shows as Olympics grass time and the Tuesday time (3.30-4.30) does not include the 'Ice Cream Trip' (which I understand from a travel blog iirc is an enjoyable trip to the beach)

In the Diagram of Events (see diagram above) the files only include Catriona's statements about Tuesday and Wednesday at the beach but on page 870 she also claims the sailing trip on Thursday, but no diagram for that day either! (and no creche records for the twins AM.)

Now that I hear that Alice Stanley and Chris Unsworth were not formally interviewed, (thank you Jeanne) the only reason I can see for that may be there was no mini sail that Madeleine attended (at any time in the week), in which case their statements would be irrelevant.

If they had taken Madeleine out on the boat that day, their statement would, in my opinion be very important, as one of the last people to have witnessed Madeleine during the day.

So only Catriona claims the mini sail was redirected to Thursday....The police files have not released the Diagram of events for that Thursday morning and not included her comments for the mini sail on Thursday in the Diagram of Events for that week.

Her claimed times to not coincide with the activity sheet.

From what I see anyway!

I really believe there is something suspicious about the events of that morning and that may be the reason those details are not in the files.

Diagrams at bottom of this page..
<!-- m -->http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE.htm<!-- m -->

_________________


Jane Tanner claims she was with ROB and saw them at the mini sail

She took pictures of E**a.

Where are the pictures and was Madeleine not in the picture?

ROB claims they were watching the mini tennis of the other group.

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Discre ... 33711.html<!-- m -->
Quote:
JANE
Dave and Fi were already down there and, no, we met we met Dave and Fi coming back, because they’d had their second, I think they’d had their second sailing lessonthey said ‘Oh we’ve seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat down there’So then we went down to the beach, erm, and Russell took out a kayak and I sat and just played

Ella and Madeleine and the rest of the group they were getting ready to walk back up to the, erm, tut, the Kids Club

I’ve got pictures of Ella, of Evie, that’s about the first day I took pictures actually


Quote:
Russell
After Jane’s tennis lesson I’ll try and preserve it as much as possible, ‘I recall that one of the guests erm, a man from Southampton came up full-stop. ‘His daughter it was his three year old daughter, ‘his young daughter was having a this, it may be word perfect, ‘was having a erm
1578 “We have got His daughter was playing tennis
Reply “Well, yeah, his, his daughter was having a tennis lesson, you know, a kid’s tennis lesson

And I think that’s important, particularly, because of what the man said, if Madeleine was potentially being photographed by anyone, it was absolutely clear that Madeleine and E were not there that day

And present at that conversation were????BR>

Reply “Well certainly myself, Jane, Kate and Rachael,


Quote:
Rachael:
so basically it just, you know I just sat by the pool and read my book, sort of waiting for the tennis lesson and Kate, Kate was there and we sat together and had you know, chatted a bit, erm and then I think Diane might have been there as well, remember chatting to Kate cos we were talking about schools and that sort of thing, erm and holidays, erm and then I think it must have been at about ten thirty, Madeleine and E**a and their sort of group came to have a tennis lesson as part of their crèche activities, erm and Kate didn’t have her camera and Jane was there then as well and Jane took some photos of both Madeleine and E**a, that’s one, that poster of Madeleine with the tennis b*lls, that sort of pictures”.

RMO-
the last time you saw Madeleine”?
Reply “Erm it was when she was having a tennis lesson, in the morning yeah, about probably between ten thirty and eleven on the morning of the third of May”.
00.41.13 1578 “At the tennis courts”?
Reply “Yes at the tennis courts”.

1578 “Any particular court”?
Reply “Erm it was the one, if you were standing facing the courts, it’s the one on the left I think”.


NOTE: Madeleine's group played on Tuesday and all Mini's tennis was played on Court 2. Rachael is describing court 1.


According to ROB they watched the other groups mini tennis which was 10.30am -11am.

Jane arrived with ROB at the beach in time for the children to start to walk back to the creche.

Only Rachael claims it was Madeleine's tennis on Thursday...and that was the last time she saw her.

Madeleine's tennis was on Tuesday, so is THAT the day that Rachael saw Madeleine last?

Georgina the tennis coach and the records show it was Tuesday morning 10.30-11am but the activity sheet shows Monday

When you keep in mind that Fiona claims she walked from the pool area to pick up her youngest and Madeleine with Kate at lunchtime but Kate claims she went to the apartment first and Gerry claims HE went to pick Madeleine up from the creche it becomes apparent that there were a lot of inconsistencies that cannot be put down to a bad memory regarding times...

None of their 'stories' are consistent and one has to wonder why?

I do anyway!



Jane claims it was Thursday morning but apart from Catriona, nothing else in the files corroborates the time except the Diagram of Events and the police did not release the diagram for that morning..

Why?

Estelle

Kate’s “Diary” is one of the most curious pieces of a puzzle that the men of the Policia Judiciária tried to reconstruct in order to establish the facts surrounding the disappearance of Madeleine. The report of the first days spent in Praia da Luz was written after the event and reports a kind of “agenda” detailing what the McCanns and their friends allegedly did.

Two years later, day by day, it is interesting to compare Kate’s report with what is known in the process. An exercise that reveals contradictions and surprises in its content."


I have put some of these in bold.

Kate's Diary

Sat. 28.04.2007
Arrival O.C. 15:00
Apartment 5A
Pool
Swim with M
Meeting with M.W. officials and have a drink
Rest. Millennium with kids (only night) (Note: ‘Rest.’ = Restaurant)
Return walk – difficult for kids
Bed Bath →
Bed early

Sun 29.04.2007
Breakfast Millennium Restaurant
? pruning of hedge
Morning Kids Club
10:00 morning talking over coffee, I went along to tennis
Lunch sandwiches →
→ F balcony and Dave

Kids Club afternoon
Seated in deck-chairs F A A
K and G run – Beach 16:00
High tea
Recreational area
Rest.: No Matt

Monday 30.04.2007
Breakfast apartment? apartment cleaning
Kids clubs:
Tennis 09.15-10.15 K
G 10.15-11.15
*? washing machine / blinds
Lunch – our apartment then → balcony F and Dave
Kids club?? beach
+ / – 16.00 K run 25 min.
16:30 Tennis lessons
High tea
18:30? tennis night for women
Recreational area
Afternoon: K and J Supermarket
Rest. – everyone

Tuesday 01.05.2007 (holiday)
Breakfast apartment
Kids club – mini-tennis ↓
09.15-10.15 K ↓
G 10.15-11.15 ↓
Madeleine and Ella
* Get camera

Lunch → apartment
RAIN
Kids club beach, sunglasses

Ice cream
13:30 → 15:00 ish
Kids club? 15.15
? time not so good?
G tennis lessons – ok
High tea 16:30
? recreational area
Restaurant? object tennis
No Russell, Evie felt ill
(5D) Russ remained in apartment
Food was brought up

Wednesday – 02.05.2007
Breakfast apartment? apartment cleaning
RAIN
Kids club
Tennis → postponed wet courts
→ Millennium K and G – meet F, D and D
+ / – 11.30 Kate run with Matt
+ / – 40 min.
Get kids
Lunch – apartment, recreational area
Kids club
G Tennis 14.30-15.30
K 15.30-16.30 tennis? tennis lesson
? G Tennis lessons 16:30
Launching speed
? object tennis

High tea → recreational area
Rest. – No Rachael (5B)
Apartment next door

- Slightly later bedtime? 24.00
→ to bar after dinner

Thursday 03.05.2007 – The day of the disappearance
Breakfast – Apartment
Comment Madeleine “Where were you (was I) when me and S cried?”
Kids club, time – check registration

09.00-09.30 → 12:30
Sailing (beach)
Wash M top of pyjamas – big stain

Lunch? apartment? tea
Tennis lesson 09.15-10.15
conversation on the grass w / Russell and Nigel (the video camera)
[?] Minutes of tennis

K? get Madeleine
J and Fiona (Scarlett)
Then pick up S and A
(? Meeting there with G)
Breakfast – apartment -? balcony
? recreational area – ok
Afternoon / Kids club – a bit later
K Ella already there
Swimming – indoors pool
K and G – practice tennis then lesson and coach Dan
15.30 – 16.30
Julian appeared – continued to play with Gerry
I went to run → beach
(rest of the group on the beach)
Gerry went to meet the kids for high tea at Tapas. I joined them after running.
+ / – 17.20-17.30
[Strikethrough text illegible]
M very tired and quiet
Since Ella was taken from the KC → beach. I was a little worried that she was sad to have been alone. (Not realised that the group had gone to the beach.)
She said she was fine.
She asked me to pick her up and said she was tired.
I picked her up and carried her to the apartment with G and S and A
Prepared bath as kids tired and men’s tennis night at 18.00.
I considered returning to the recreation area with the kids but decided to stay in the apartment after bath and hair wash.
G men’s tennis night
B pyjamas
Biscuits and milk for the kids – left them with this and books and games and went to take a quick bath / wash my hair.
I got out of the bath and David was knocking on the patio doors.
I wrapped myself in a towel and went into the living room.
He asked if we wanted to go to the recreational area, since he could help me take the kids.
Refused – since kids ready for bed.
I dressed myself.
Ate some snacks with the kids
M tired – sitting on my lap – read story of MOG
Brush teeth
To bedroom with kids
G there too – I think.
[Children's music] – M telling story
M removes and lowers head on pillow
S + A good-night kisses for M
From S and A → cots x2
K gave a good-night kiss to M
Leaned the door as much as possible without closing it.
Silence
? dry hair
Make-up
Glass of wine
20:35 → rest. First to arrive
21:00 → G, Conversation with Steve
21:30 → Matt, Carolyn (Note: Carolyn is a witness who says she heard someone calling Madeleine’s name, around 21:30, as she walked back to her apartment)
22:00 → Myself,
20:40 Jane next
20:45 Matt and Rachael
Russell?
Detained
Evie feeling sick
R went for a long time
Jane replaced him
[Three pages with drawings]

Undated, at the Hilton in Berlin
Scared wants to return
Fears for her fear
Reality suddenly binds
Never loved anyone this much
(Note: this is written in the third person, as in ‘he/she never loved anyone this much’)
Never again able to be completely happy / enjoy something. I’m sorry to be asking some of these questions, but I am sure you will understand that our despair, particularly given the lack of information and resulting helplessness, may be somewhat mitigated if it gains some trust.

1. The following people were heard?
(I) teachers and all other officers of the school across the street from our apartment;
(II) all staff working in the Ocean Club Tapas bar / restaurant;
(III) [text cut]

the “reward”? (That was offered without our knowledge!)

5. How is the information from countries other than Portugal and the United Kingdom being processed? Is it being handled by local police forces in their countries of origin and then passed on to you? Is there a “route” for this information?
[illegible]
6. Was significant data collected by experts in mobile phone communications?
[...]

1. Inquiries
- School – ok
- Tapas restaurant – ok
- Child maintenance – ok
- Yvonne Warren – not that I know of

2. Rbt Murat? evidence? forensic results
why still under strong suspicion if forensic results were negative

3. Info relative to Madeleine? no
4. Reward – OK
5. Route for information from other countries?

(Translation [from English original to Portuguese] the responsibility of the ‘Area of Documentation and Translation’ of the Policia Judiciária)
<!-- m -->http://www.mccannfiles.com/id166.html<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://mccannexposure.wordpress.com/201 ... nns-diary/<!-- m -->



Thanks for the reminder oof the diary Estelle.

There are certainly lots of questions regarding the comments made.

Earlier I posted a screenshot from the documentary where Goncalo saidMadeleine's bed did not appear to be slept in..

If Goncalo Amaral's theory is that she woke and went to the sofa to look out of the window and fell, why would he claim in the video that it does not show Madeleine had slept in it (since the cleaner came the morning before?)

Image

Quote:
<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Goncal ... 01692.html<!-- m -->

Goncalo Amaral interview
What about Maddie's bed?

It carries no signs that anyone was in it. Nor does the chair or the bed under the window. And there are no imprints from strangers.


This appears to me to show that Goncalo Amaral does not believe Madeleine was put into bed that night (or possibly Wednesday night after the bed was made Wednesday morning.)

He also does not believe that any of the tapas were checking that night...they were told to make those comments.

That tells me that whatever happened was BEFORE they went to the tapas that night and there were no checks...just statements about checks. imo

Quote:
all have stated that they were carrying out regular checks, but the day could come when they retract their statements and say that somebody asked them to say this.


Quote:
Q: Do you believe that we will know what happened to Maddie one day? Will we get to know the truth?

Yes. There were 9 people in this Holiday Group. Maybe they do not know that the girl is dead, but they could have received instructions about what to say, such as "you went to the room and you saw the girl", however they know that this is not true. By that means the case could be re-opened; one day the full truth could be known.


Quote:
GA: In fact there is another situation with Mathew Oldfield who says he went inside the apartment and states that he saw two windows, and his wife says that moments before that, minutes earlier, he had listened at the two bedroom windows, so that detail of the two windows, which seems to be a mistake but it’s not quite so, therefore, if they had been in the bedroom they would know that there was only one window in the bedroom, even outside of the bedroom if they had been listening it would only be one window as well, therefore there is only one window.


Quote:
He says that more than one person can still give information, said that even within the group of 9 people there still exists the possibility that anyone of them can talk about something that could reopen the case file



Quote:
The witnesses, there were several inconsistencies between their statements. Those that had dinner with the McCanns that night, their friends, invented the system of monitoring of the children. Why? There are many details that lead one to think about the culpability of the parents. There are two different lists about the monitoring system.



Quote:
The reconstruction is missing.

It was not carried out 10 or 15 days after the facts, because the resort was full of tourists. We trusted that it could be carried out at a later date. It couldn't.

Did you request data about the group?

At 8 a.m. on the 4th, the request was made to the English liaison officer, but [the data] never arrived.

What did you want to know?

Who the people are, their antecedents. And the child, whether or not there are complaints against the parents or others. How she behaved in school, to find out if she was the target of abuse.


Quote:
A question regarding the tapas friends and how many people were seated at the table dining when the girl disappeared was put to Gonçalo Amaral. He stated: 'It is not known'.



Estelle wrote:
This appears to me to show that Goncalo Amaral does not believe Madeleine was put into bed that night (or possibly Wednesday night after the bed was made Wednesday morning.)

That gets us back to BEFORE the Wednesday night, doesn't it, HiDeHo?


It appears that way Estelle.

I gave the title of this thread 'before 5.30pm Thursday' but there are many indications it happened a lot earlier than that and although Goncalo seems to be limited in what he can say in interviews (keeping to statements and booking forms) he has, in my opinion, most certainly stated that it doesn't appear that Madeleine was in bed that night or Wednesday. (If the bed was made Thursday morning by Kate then why wasn't the other bed made tidy also?)

The police have also held back the Diagram of Events for Thursday morning (showing Catriona's claims about what happened that morning)

The twins creche records for Thursday AM have not been released.

The Diagram of Events scrutinises the McCanns times of creche arrivals and pick ups during the week (why necessary if everything happened on Thursday night?)

The police attempted to get the details of the flurry of phone calls (10.16 -10.27pm on Tuesday night) so why would they need that information from earlier in the week.

So much points to something happening earlier in the week, but its not as apparent because police have held back some of that information, whereas the Thursday night statements are released for perusal (except Kate's after 10.00pm?)

Considering Goncalo does not believe the friend's statements, I feel that very little can be established from them.

It's what the police HAVEN'T released that I believe tells the story.

That seems to be what the McCanns want to get their hands on.

(All my opinion only)

_________________


Jeanne d Arc wrote:
Estelle wrote:
This appears to me to show that Goncalo Amaral does not believe Madeleine was put into bed that night (or possibly Wednesday night after the bed was made Wednesday morning.)

That gets us back to BEFORE the Wednesday night, doesn't it, HiDeHo?



It gets us to a timeframe between 17:00 (if you believe Dianne Webster) and about 19:00 when the children were usually brought to bed on the Wednesday.


I don't think that Dianne Webster's claim of seeing Madeleine specifically on Wednesday is particularly credible.

In the Rogatory interview, after Fiona and Dave had reminded her of a few things, note she claims she was 'apparently' in the play area, indicating to me she was 'reminded' she was there, and adds the word 'probably' to seeing Madeleine on Wednesday.

<!-- l -->post442.html#p442<!-- l -->
Quote:
DW: "Err we’d meet, the children used to have high tea I think err I don’t know whether it was about five o’ clock which was done again in the Tapas area, there was an area for the children to have their high tea which was provided by Mark Warner. Err so yeah I was there several times when they were all having high tea and err parents were there as well, or at least one parent, err…”

PC: "Did you do any of the taking or fetching from the kids clubs with L*** and Scarlet?”

DW: "Err no I never took them, I never err I can’t remember you see.”

PC: "Okay.”

DW: "I might, I might have err picked them up one day but I think that Dave would have been there as well I don’t know, I just don’t remember.”




<!-- l -->post442.html#p442<!-- l -->
Dianne Webster Rogatory

Quote:
PC: "And how often would you see their children, Madeleine, Sean and Amelie?”

DW: "Well again err on a daily basis but a lot of the time when I saw them, because they were at kids club during err during the day, not as, I think morning and afternoon I’m not sure, err most of the time when I saw them was err when they were having high tea and err then afterwards in the playing area, and sometimes round the swimming pool err so yeah I would say I’d see, I’d see them err on a fairly regular basis, yeah.”

PC: "And have you ever felt that you had a reason to become somehow concerned about the children?”

DW: "No, never.”

PC: "When was the last time you saw Madeleine?”

DW: "(Sighs) You see I don’t remember seeing her on the Thursday because I didn’t go to the high tea, err but I was apparently in the play area afterwards but I can’t recall that.”

PC: "Okay.”

DW: "Err so from what I can recall, the last time I would have seen Madeleine would have been the Wednesday at the high tea probably.”



I agree with you that Dianne was not aware of the details initially.

As she mentioned, she did 'her own thing' most of the time and would not have known what the activities were if something happened earlier that week.

You may be correct about the reason that Dianne was asked to stay at the table Jeanne...I hadn't thought of that, as well as the trip to the Paraiso that afternoon, so noone would have to lie about seeing Madeleine at high tea.

Other days they could 'fudge' their answers and roll them over, but that day they needed to be specific.


I have always believed something happened earlier, hence many of the unanswered questions become explainable.

I believe that once something happened, Kate needed time to grieve and Gerry needed time to plan and then of course they needed time to clean.

Not only cleaning and washing what may have been blood on the walls and floor but also disposing of anything that could link them to her disappearance.

btw...have we seen the bottle of wine and wine glasses from their relaxing drink of New Zealand wine before they left for the tapas? If not, why not? If nothing happened to Madeleine until after they left for the tapas then they would have been telling the truth about the wine as at that point there was nothing to hide...If, however it was a contrived comment then one has to wonder why? What would be the need if nothing had happened to Madeleine at that point?

The perception of the McCanns keeping a distance with the rest of the tapas could be because Kate was grieving (and preparations, discussions etc) as without something happening the holiday would have likely included the usual connections one would find with a group of friends on holiday.

Gerry knew that it was important to imprint the 'abduction' in the minds of the media and the public BEFORE any questions started to arise.

Its human nature to 'believe' what is heard first and question any deviation of that. Add to that the quote....

Quote:
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
Joseph Goebbels quote


Said often enough and people believe it....used often by TM...'Abduction' 'No evidence of Madeleine coming to harm' 'continuing the search' etc etc.

I don't believe the 'neglect'. It was used to enable an abduction and, as Goncalo Amaral suggests, the friends were asked to say things that weren't true.

Wednesday night they stayed at the tapas for an hour after closing, until 1.00am.

What was so important to keep the employees working after their finished scheduled time of midnight? Something VERY important imo.

Without neglect as a trade-off the McCanns would have immediately been accountable for what happened to Madeleine.

They have happily hidden behind neglect for three years but one day, their game will be up.

I believe all/most of this was discussed prior to their final act of fooling the world with a faked 'abduction' and that would have been possible with time.

The time AFTER whatever happened to Madeleine.


veritas wrote:
The only thing I can't get my head around if M had died earlier in the week is how the parents (and surely all the friends would have had to of been aware) could possibly behave normally at evening meals, tennis lessons, quiz nights, discussions with other holiday makers etc etc. No matter what anyone thinks of Mr and Mrs McCann, I can't believe they could have kept the death of their daughter secret from their friends and can't believe in a million years they could ALL carry on with their holiday, behaving perfectly normally in the knowledge a child had just died. It just doesn't make sense.

If you are one of the many people who believe an abduction never took place and the parents hid the body of their daughter, you have to consider whether this was a pre-planned staged abduction or a spur of the moment panic situation. The number of strange goings on earlier in the week (crying incident, cot in the parent's bedroom, Madeleine's bed not looking as if it had been slept in etc. etc) has always led me to believe that something occurred earlier in the week.

IMO the only thing that seems to add up is an accident occurring earlier in the week with KM discovering a deceased MBM behind the sofa during the first 10 minutes of the search at around 9.45pm on the 3rd May.

The statements of the waiters who witnessed GM frantically searching the pool area followed by an 'indescribable' scream from the balcony of 5A would appear to support this theory.

This scenario could even mean that the rest of the group were well aware that M had an accident earlier in the week but were unaware that KM found her body and innocently went along with the 'abduction' scenario. Maybe, because all the group were responsible for not reporting the earlier accident (for whatever reason) they then found themselves in a Catch 22 situation with regards subsequent events which could explain their rather strange rogatory statements, raising far more questions than they answered.

.



It is only with an earlier death/sickness/accident that I can comprehend how they could have 'acted' without raising suspicions.

Kate seemed to be detached from what the others claim to have been their activities through the week.

There is a question as to whether she was at the tapas on Tuesday night, or did she just go to eat and then leave as Najoya the quiz mistress, saw an empty place as if someone had left and she doesn't remember seeing Kate or David Payne.

ROB claims to have not been there and if the remainder of the T9 were there, they didn't get up and leave the table. (Gerry, Rachael, Matthew Fiona and Dianne.)

That is the night that rs Fenn heard the crying and although the McCanns claim they returned to the apartment at 11pm, Kates phone shows usage between 10.16pm and 10.27pm.

Was she at the tapas or was she somewhere else when she made those calls?

In her diary she claims someone 'brought' up ROB's dinner.

Quote:
No Russell, Evie felt ill
(5D) Russ remained in apartment
Food was brought up


Was she with ROB?

Wednesday night Jez Wilkins says that Gerry arrived with ROB and that Kate was putting the children to bed.

Quote:
<!-- l -->post437.html#p437<!-- l -->
On Wednesday, 2nd May, I could see it was raining and the tennis lesson was postponed. It was re-scheduled for 2:30 pm. I found this out at a later date and missed the lesson. I arrived about five (5) minutes before the end and realized this fact. I saw the usual people at the tennis lesson. I then went back to my apartment.

That evening myself and my partner attended the “Tapas” restaurant which is part of the hotel complex at the swimming pool. We sat down to eat at 7:30 pm. After about forty five (45) minutes Jerry appeared as did one of his friends. I believe it was Russell. They sat at the next table. We naturally engaged in conversation about everyday things. We spoke about childcare. That night my family were using the creche’s facility. We found out that the group of families were occupying ground floor flats near the swimming pool and they were leaving the children by themselves in order for them to go to the restaurant in the evenings. They would then go regularly to check the children who would be asleep.

I found out that Jerry was a cardiologist in a Hospital. At this time his wife was putting the children to bed. We received a call from the crèche informing that our son was awake. My partner left first and I followed shortly afterwards. The amount of time I spent with Jerry was about fifteen (15) to twenty (20) minutes we remained in the restaurant. By the time we left, Jerry was with about seven other people. I picked up my daughter from the crèche and then returned to the apartment.


Did Kate go to the tapas that night?

Why did Gerry and ROB go together?

Why not Jane?

On this night (Wednesday) they stayed until 1.00am. The waiters finish their shift at midnight.

<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Staff- ... 37541.html<!-- m -->

Quote:
Jeronimo Tomas Rodrigues Salcedas
Generally, they left the Tapas at 23h30/midnight, at times together and at other times in small groups. On the night in which they drank more than usual, they left a bit later, perhaps towards 00h30-01h00. I remember this detail because I was supposed to finish work at 00H00 and I wanted to go home.


When it is considered that we read the statements from the T9 and attempt to perceive what happened, but in reality are using 'lies' to construct the week.

I believe a lot more happened and some very interesting details have been left out or 'held' for the future.

I don't believe the T7 wanted to lie and they therefore live with the perception of being less than intelligent, when maybe the fact is that they were trying to avoid outright lies by fluffing past issues and rolled over days to cover themselves, giving them the ability to claim a memory lapse.

Jane seemed to relate a lot of activity to Wednesday, when the details are appropriate to Tuesday.

Is it possible she didn't want to discuss Wednesday and used Tuesdays activities as 'fill'?

It would have been possible in my opinion for Kate to have kept a low profile and be supported by friends who, at that time, had NO idea of the impact this exraordinary case would have in the media.

They didn't necessarily have to know all the details...Maybe Madeleine was sick for a while and once she died they were, maybe, persuaded to help and support.

Hindsight was a privilege not afforded to them.



There is still some question as to how long it takes for cadaver scent to develop.

This, to me, is a very important issue.

From my understanding, claiming 90 minutes is a minimum time may only be because the studies have not been completed for a shorter time.

Although I can see that 90 minutes could be squeezed to fit into the timeframe between 5.30pm and 10.00pm, I do not find it particularly credible.

Gerry was seen by tennis coach Daniel Stuk, playing tennis until 7.00pm.

For something to have happened and Madeleine remain in the apartment before they 'casually' went to dinner at 8.30pm does not seem possible. (they did not, at that point, have to fit into a timeline that we are familiar with, they could have decided to stay in the apartment longer or not go to dinner or make some excuse)

For something to have happened after they left and to have dealt with the situation within the course of little more than an hour they were at the tapas, although explained by others as possible, does not seem credible in my opinion.

If the cadaver scent discussion shows that the time needed for the 'chemical ' necessary for the dogs to alert, needs a specific timeframe, I really believe that this may add credence to something happening earlier.


A visit to the original post on this thread will explain why I believe that not only did Kate know but the rest of the T9 confused their statements deliberately to cover for the truth.

<!-- l -->topic9355.html<!-- l -->

There was not one sighting (in my opinion after studying every witness statement) that definitively witnessed seeing Madeleine after Sunday lunchtime when the cleaners daughter saw them on their way to lunch at the Paynes (which I believe would have continued to happen, along with the others if nothing happened)

Both Kate and Gerry denied a cot being in their room on Wednesday morning. There was a reason. It's not something you would deny under normal circumstances.

Rachael 'saw' Madeleine playing tennis on Thursday and claimed it was the last time she saw her. Does that mean the last time she saw her was Tuesday, which is the day that Madeleine's group played?

If Najoua is to be believed, it was not only ROB who was not at the tapas on Tuesday night. She did not see Kate or DP and noone got up from the table between 9 and 10pm approx but Kate received a flurry of phone calls just before Mrs Fenn heard the crying.

If they weren't at the tapas they would not be accountable for neglect for leaving Madeleine crying so why was it necessary to deny the crying (and the cot seen in their room the following morning)

A simple description about picking Madeleine up from the creche on Thursday lunchtime was turned into a confusion of statements with Kate Gerry and Fiona ALL claiming to have been at the creche to pick her up. Her last day and they cant recall the specifics.

Goncalo Amaral claims that Madeleine's bed was not used.

They would have been aware of that when they left to go to the tapas that night.

They knew, because Madeleine was already dead at that point and she had died previously, allowing Kate to grieve (reason she has not been established to have been at tapas on Tueday night and Wednesday night. Gerry arrived with ROB according to Jez Wilkins. Kate and Jane did not go with their husbands as was the usual routine?)

Putting all the discrepancies together allows for an explanation about how all of the T9 could not come up with any credible explanation about the week.

Something that should have been simple had it been a 'normal' week on holiday.

They ALL knew and Kate knew more than most or the few details we have been privy to would show some kind of believable timeline regardless of everyone explaining the activities from their viewpoint.

I may be one of the few that believes something happened earlier, but, although I try to follow the general belief of it all happening on Thursday night I see too many blatant inconsistencies during the week that cannot be attributed to just a bad memory.

Noone has given me even a slight reason to believe otherwise at this point.

Just my opinion.



I cannot help thinking that these were (relatively) intelligent people and probably 'likeable' in normal circumstances.

At the expense of their reputation they elected to support the 'disappearance' and in doing so created the illusion of not having a brain in their head.

In most cases they chose not to lie but used avoidance, rolled over days and were non specific in an attempt to 'support'.

At the time they had no idea what was in store for them regarding the media frenzy and scrutiny they now face.

Once they had 'committed' to the support there was no turning back, although it would not surprise me to find out that one or more of them had approached the police with more information, but not enough (on its own) to know there would be a conviction if there was a court case, even though it may be enough to reopen the case.

I don't believe they all knew what happened to Madeleine's body, which is crucial to a conviction.

I do think that at least one of the T7 knows, but this is all only my opinion.


Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:39 am
Goncalo is saying that Madeleine's bed shows no signs of being used...

Image

Quote:
<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Goncal ... 01692.html<!-- m -->

Goncalo Amaral interview
What about Maddie's bed?

It carries no signs that anyone was in it. Nor does the chair or the bed under the window. And there are no imprints from strangers.



Quote:
JP: So your opinion is that an accidental death took place in that apartment.

GA: It is not my opinion. It’s the opinion of the investigation. This has to be made very clear. I have repeated this several times but it’s important.

JP: You are absolutely right, so according to the investigation…

GA: According to the investigation that was composed of English, Portuguese investigators…

JP: Exactly. The little girl died in that apartment?

GA: The little girl died in that apartment.

JP: On the evening of the 3rd of May.

GA: And we reached that conclusion with the data that we have.


He claims the investigation shows she may have fallen off the sofa after waking up, but his opinion has to be based on 'knowing' that her bed shows no signs of being slept in (since the cleaner made the bed on Wednesday morning?)

He is 'telling' the McCanns he knows more than what the 'investigation' allows him to say?

If Madeleine did not sleep in that bed Wednesday and Thursday.

WHY?

Where was she?

Something happened to her BEFORE Thursday evening?




Russel and Jane's youngest daughter was (supposedly) sick on Tuesday and Thursday.

I have always suspected that the details attributed to Thursday was what happened on Tuesday night allowing him to explain his time away from the table on Thursday.

If it DID happen on Tuesday (the washing machine incident) this was the same day that Kate asked the maintenance men how to use the washing machine (while they were fixing the broken shutters in the parents bedroom).

All very suspicious to me.

Just to give the perspective to Tuesday night...This was when a child was crying according to Mrs Fenn and Kate and David Payne were not at the tapas from 9-10pm (approx) according to Najoua the quiz mistress.

Kate received a flurry of phone calls just before the crying incident and the cot was seen in the McCanns bedroom the following day.



I can only claim my opinion on this topic as it is very involved.

There is not one witness statement that claims without doubt to have seen Maddie throughout the week.

Some of them were obviously mistaken.

A cook claims to have seen Madeleine every day as she was at the creche near the tapas. We know Madeleine did not go to that creche and therefore the cook was mistaken. This tells me that thatere is at least one other child and maybe one of the tapas children that resembled Madeleine.

I have been through all the nannies statements and cannot find one that, without doubt, is referring to Madeleine.

Catriona's statement is questionable for many reasons previously discussed on this thread.

(All statements start on page 12-13 of this thread).

There is an 'issue' as to whether the sailing trip really did take place on Thursday morning.

The last 'credible' witness that claims to have seen Madeleine during that week was the cleaner's daughter who saw the family outside of their apartment on Sunday..

After that I cannot find any specific sighting of Madeleine that wasn't questionable.

Just my opinion.

This thread in Madeleine Aimoo forum may explain why I feel they were all questionable...
<!-- m -->http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Discre ... 80252.html<!-- m -->



There are many who have extensive knowledge of this case that do not feel she died earlier.

Everyone's prerogative.

Catriona Baker's statement about Madeleine on her knee was (I believe) in her Rogatory statement..this was after her trip to Rothley in November.

Creche and nanny discussions are a thread unto themselves but I feel it is possible, though I dont know how, that Gerry and Kate were maybe able to convince Catriona that Madeleine was there at a time when the BBC Whistleblower program was investigating Mark Warner creche (two weeks prior in another location) and whether Catriona second guessed herself in some way.

I do not believe she lied deliberately but she is the ONLY person throughout the holiday that can establish Maddie was there and I feel her statement was jeopardised with her trip to Rothley.

The sailing trip (Thursday Morning) has been removed from the 'Diagram of Events' that the police put together to establish creche activities through the week.

Alice Stanley and Chris Unsworth, sailing instructors for MW mini sail, were not considered 'worthy' of an official statement .

One reason to consider is that there was NOT a mini sail Thursday morning and they would , therefore, have nothing to add about seeing Madeleine.

There is no other confirmation about the mini sail except Jane Tanner and Catriona Baker's statement that it was moved to Thursday from Wednesday. (I believe.)

The creche timetable for that week does not 'match' Catriona's statement regardless of the mini sail.

Her comments about the Thursday pick up from the High Tea are also questionable.

Gerry says he was there...Kate said he was playing tennis but was there when she went jogging...Catriona said he was not there and she thought he was playing tennis (an odd thing for her to say).

Too many inconsistencies (more also) that in my opinion, deem her statement questionable.

Which, in my opinion, leaves no statements from anyone that specifically saw Madeleine.

It doesn't prove she wasn't there but there is nothing to prove she was!



Thanks to all the translators and forum/blogs we are all recipients of varying degrees of information and our opinions and theories are based on that.

Ultimately, as long as Madeleine can be 'found' and buried with dignity and her family given the opportunity to grieve then as far as I am concerned it won't matter who was right or wrong.

Until that day, as long as we keep the discussions and theories going then Madeleine's memory will not be forgotten.

:s_roses for everyone that cares...not forgetting :s_howdy















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Re:BEFORE 5.30pm Thursday or AFTER - Opinion HiDeHo

Date Posted:08/10/2011 2:33 AMCopy HTML

I have been searching for anything that would help me believe that Madeleine was alive during the week.

If I find it I will most certainly change my thoughts that I have formed with the information I have compiled.

After Sunday lunchtime when the cleaner's daughter saw the family, including Madeleine, outside of the apartment I have not found ONE witness statement that clarifies the child they saw was Madeleine.

If anyone can show me a statement that is not open to question then I would love to see it.

Noone has shown me one yet!

A little 3 year old was on holiday for approximately 5 days...

Apart from the cleaners daughter Sunday lunchtime, where are the people, including nannies, that are specific about seeing Madeleine?

Where is her DNA?

Where are the little things a child would have 'created' that would have been so special? A drawing, colouring, craft, whether in the apartment or at the creche?

Where are the statements/comments about the other parents and creche friends that shared a 'moment' with Maddie?

Where are the statements/comments from the staff 'manning' the tapas reception. that could establish not only the 'comings and goings' of the T9 but also comment on seeing Madeleine as she visited the pool area and high tea?

Where are the CCTV pictures of Maddie around PdL? She was taken to the beach on Tuesday where they bought 5 ice creams. They watched a guitarist. Was this at the Paraiso? Where are the CCTV pictures?

Where are the holiday pictures with other children (apart from playground) (Sat/Sunday?)

What a coincidence the McCanns chose not to go to breakfast and share mornings with other couples and children. (after Sunday)

What a coincidence the McCanns chose not to share lunches with other couples and children at lunchtimes (after Sunday)

What a coincidence the McCanns did not share the visit to the beach on Thursday where Maddie could have been confimed as alive.

Where are other guests holiday pictures with Madeleine and family in background?

Where WAS Madeleine after Sunday and why should I believe she was alive on Thursday evening?

I have an open mind for ANYTHING that is 'reasonable' proof she was around.

Sunday, I believe she was seen by the cleaner's daughter..

http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Discrepancies-by-Topic/Summary-of-Witnesses-that-saw-Madeleine-1-837083.html
Date : 2007: 05: 08

Name: Fátima María Serafim da Silva Espada

Profession: Cleaner
She had the opportunity to observe the photos of Madeleine that were being circulated everywhere and has no hesitation in confirming that she saw the child before her disappearance in the company of her siblings and mother and father, although in the latter case she only observed him from a distance.

She states that this took place on Sunday 29th April, just before she finished her morning work shift (13.30) as she had the afternoon off that day. At about 13.15 she went to help her mother, who was cleaning apartment I of the same block (5) situated on the first floor. She clearly remembers seeing the girl accompanied by her siblings and mother leave their apartment (5 A) and walk to the stairs leading to the floor above. She was very close to them at a distance of about 1 metre, observing their movements for a few moments because she was charmed by them. Madeleine led the way with a plate (perhaps plastic) in her hand bearing a piece of bread. As regards the clothes she was wearing she only remembers a skirt but cannot recall its description. She noted, because she thought them nice, the type of shoes she was wearing, tennis shoes, light in colour she thinks, which had little lights along the soles, which lit up each time she stepped on the ground. Her siblings followed behind her, wearing the same king of shoes and each holding a piece of bread in their hands, their mother followed behind them without holding their hands. She seems to remember that the mother was also carrying a plate. Moments afterwards, perhaps the time it took to close the apartment door, the father came out and also headed to the apartment upstairs. When asked, she does not remember whether the father pulled the door closed or locked it with a key.

After she chatted to her mother about there being many children in the apartments, she had the idea that the family in 5H were friends of Madeleine’s family who were staying in 5 A.
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Re:BEFORE 5.30pm Thursday or AFTER - Opinion HiDeHo

Date Posted:08/10/2011 9:53 AMCopy HTML

Who REALLY saw Madeleine on holiday?
HiDeHo on Fri 30 Apr - 1:21

My quest is to find credible (reasonably specific) 'sightings' of Madeleine throughout the holiday

There are many people who claim to have seen Madeleine during the week of the holiday, up to and including May 3rd.

After scrutinising the statements in general, there are many discrepancies that appear to start earlier in the week and for this reason I am of the opinion that Madeleine may have died (or became fatally ill) earlier than May 3rd.

Many of the witness statements that claim to have seen her are non specific, whether by date or no details confirming it was Madeleine.

The possibility of some of these witnesses being mistaken is quite high.

One of the other T7 children was very similar in age and appearance and not only COULD have been mistaken as being Maddie but it was probably this little girl that WAS mistaken for her..

Comparison can be seen at bottom of this page on Pamalams site
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/GREYSCALE_SNAPS.htm

Revealed: Gerry McCann's last dance with little Madeleine
Last updated at 18:26 19 September 2007

A restaurant owner who is one of the last people to have seen Madeleine McCann yesterday told how she danced with her father on the seafront just hours before she vanished.

Miguel Matias, who has never spoken before, said the McCanns seemed a perfectly normal family and there was nothing to hint at the tragedy to come.

Kate and Gerry McCann, the children and their holiday friends spent an hour at restaurant Paraiso on the beach of Praia da Luz, where the youngsters ate their dinner.

Mr McCann played with his eldest daughter in the sand in front of the balcony and pushed her on a swing before calling her to the table for food and an ice-cream.

Mr Matias said: "It was a perfectly normal, relaxed, happy, family scene. The little girl was even dancing on the esplanade with her dad to the sound of music that was playing. "We couldn't believe it when we found out what had happened because nothing we saw gave any sign of what was coming.

"We didn't see anyone suspicious looking at the girl or the people on the other tables. Nor did we see anything out of the ordinary between the families and the children.'

Mr Matias's evidence confirms Madeleine was alive and well at 6pm, when the family left the restaurant.

Previously 2.29pm has been the latest time known to the general public, when the last photograph of her was taken as she played in the pool with her father and sister Amelie.

Mr Matias handed over CCTV footage of the McCanns to police a few days after Madeleine's disappearance. It is not clear whether detectives were given the CCTV hard-drive or copies of the images.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re:BEFORE 5.30pm Thursday or AFTER - Opinion HiDeHo

Date Posted:08/10/2011 9:57 AMCopy HTML

Who REALLY saw Madeleine on holiday? (cont)


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1563557/Madeleine-McCanns-last-dance-with-father.html


Madeleine McCann's last dance with father
By Caroline Gammell in Praia da Luz
Published: 4:24PM BST 19 Sep 2007

Madeleine McCann spent the last few hours before she disappeared dancing with her father Gerry on the beach, a restaurant owner has recalled.

The four-year-old was seen enjoying ice-cream and fruit juice alongside her family in Praia da Luz on May 3.


Only hours later, her bed at the Mark Warner Ocean Club apartment was discovered empty and Portugal’s biggest missing person’s investigation was launched.

The little girl’s happy afternoon was described by Miguel Matias, the owner of the beachside restaurant Paraiso, overlooking the sea in the resort town
.
He said she enjoyed an early evening meal with her father, mother Kate and younger twin brother and sister, two-year-old’s Sean and Amelie.

They were joined by several friends and their children as they sat on outdoor tables at the restaurant.
"It was a perfectly normal, relaxed, happy, family scene," said Mr Matias. The little girl was even dancing on the esplanade with her dad to the sound of music that was playing."

The restaurateur said he was stunned when he realised it was Madeleine who was missing.

"We couldn’t believe it when we found out what had happened because nothing we saw gave any hint of the coming tragedy," he said. "We didn’t see anyone suspicious looking at the girl or the people on the other tables.

"Nor did we see anything out of the ordinary between the families and the children."

After Madeleine disappeared, Mr Matias realised he was one of the last people to see the little girl.

He contacted the Portuguese police and handed over CCTV footage of the family spending their last few happy hours at his restaurant.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We know for a fact that the McCanns were not at the Paraiso and have the pictures to prove it. Without those pictures, we would still be believing a very credible witness...he was just mistaken...How many others?

Thanks to Pamalam for the gif.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/PARAISO.htm



Other reasons to question my thoughts are that Catriona Baker, Madeleine's nanny claims to have been with her right up until Thursday 3rd

Catriona Statement with highlights and comments
http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Statements/Catriona-Baker-Statements-and-Comments-1-779132.html

The creche records show she was in the creche every day, apparently dropped of by her parents but there are many questions surrounding the validity of these forms



The police files and Goncalo Amaral report with apparent certainty that Madeleine was seen on May 3rd.

I have to question whether there is requirement for them not to deviate from the times stated by witnesses as the statements are to be considered truthful and exact until a court proves otherwise.

Opinions would be subject to libel and therefore they are limited to contain the thesis to within the boundaries of witness statements.

Their 'proof' of an alternative scenario may be held within 'evidence' that is not admissible in court such as mobile phone interceptions or files that are not released to the public.

Charlotte Pennington is considered as one of the last people to see her but her statements and articles are so full of discrepancies as to not be close to reliable.

Charlotte Pennington Statements Highlighted
http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Statements/Charlotte-Pennington-Highlighted-1-780024.html

Other nannies and OC staff may have mistaken the other tapas child for Madeleine. their statements show little if anything to indicate it was definitely Madeleine.

Nannies Statements highlighted
http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Statements/Nannies-Statements-Highlighed-1-780185.html

One cleaner described the family and Madeleine leaving their apartment and this, to me is one of the few credible sightings of Madeleine but it dates back to Sunday
April 29th.

Georgina the tennis coach may be credible, and, although she refers to Madeleine it is possible she was just informed that she was (supposedly) in the tennis class on Tuesday morning.

There is, what I consider, a lack of credible sightings of Madeleine throughout the week.

I will gradually add the (highlighted) statements to see whether they stand up to reasonable scrutiny.

T7
Catriona Baker
Cecilia Dias Firmino
Charlotte Pennington
Elisa Dias Romao
Emma Wilding
Georgina Jackson
Jeronimo Salcedes
Maria M A Jose


Other Witnesses

Bridget O'Donnell
Jeremy (Jes/Jez) Wilkins
Stephen Carpenter
Maria (Cleaner)
Daniel Stuk
Georgina(Tennis coach)

Police Files
Goncalo Amaral

Not in Files
Miguel Matias, manager of the beach-side Paraíso restaurant
Alice & ? - Took children sailing May 3rd

What other witnesses saw Madeleine that week?

HiDeHo
Golden Poster
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