FIONA PAYNE
Reply
“As I say, I’m guessing, in my mind, it’s about half nine, because that would fit in with what they’ve done every other evening, and I know that was the sort of time it felt like, that half an hour had elapsed and, plus, thinking we’d had our starters and the main meals were arriving, so that was, that all sort of fits in, in my mind, with, with the time. Erm, Russell had ordered a steak, I remember that, that night, because I had ordered a steak and they were really perfectly cooked and his arrived, obviously, and he wasn’t there to eat it, erm, so they said they’ll keep it warm and I remember thinking well, you know, it’ll be really rubbish if you keep it warm. Erm, anyway Jane, as I say, wolfed hers down and headed back and then Russell came back to the table and, erm, and I recall this because I thought how good the service was that they actually came to the table and said ‘Oh don’t worry’, you know, ‘we’ll cook you another steak’, you know, ‘the last one would be ruined’. So he sat down and there was a bit of a wait while they did another steak for Russell, erm, and so that must be between sort of quarter to ten and ten, because I remember just before Kate returned to the table having, having gone to check on, erm, on their kids, because that was pretty much when Russell’s steak arrived, I remember that being at that point”.

00.43.59
1485
“Sorry, his steak arrived when Kate went to go and check or when Kate came back?”


Reply
“I remember the steak being here sort of just before Kate came back”.


1485
“Did you see her go?”


Reply
“Erm, I was aware she’d gone, erm, at what exact point, again, it’s got to be between quarter to ten and ten o’clock, somewhere in that time period”.


1485
“Yeah. Okay. So tell me what happened when Kate, how long Kate was away and how she came back and what were you doing, what was the mood of the table like?”


Reply
“The mood was, as I say, it was very jovial that night, everyone was in really, really good humour, erm, there was a lot joking. Erm, Kate, she was gone, again, I wouldn’t have said it was for any longer, it didn’t strike me as a long period of time, she was gone any longer than any of the other checks. Erm, but I do remember her coming back, erm, you know, I never will forget”.

00.45.09
1485
“Go on?”


Reply
“Erm, tut, she sort of raced back and she just appeared at the doors of the sort of reception area and just shouted across, erm, ‘She’s gone. Gerry, Madeleine’s gone’. And, you know, well you can just imagine the shock maybe. So everyone was just sort of still for what seemed like, sort of five seconds or so. Gerry jumped up and went ‘She can’t be gone’ and raced off with Kate. And obviously we all followed, bar my mum, who I had said, I had the baby monitor, our baby monitor, and, plus, at that point, I just thought well, you know, the assumption was that she must have just wandered off, so I said to mum, you know, ‘You stay put here just in case Madeleine comes down to the pool area’ and gave her the monitor, our baby monitor, and said ‘You you listen out for our kids’. So we all were sort of racing behind Kate and Gerry, erm, back up to the apartment. Erm, we didn’t go in at that point, I think Kate, erm, Gerry must have rushed in with Kate and pretty much immediately Dave, erm, Matt, Russell and myself split up in four different directions just to do a search, you know, again assuming that she must have just wandered off. Erm, tut, so, you know, I don’t know which way they went, but I, I went round the back of, erm, tut, well this way around the back of the apartments and round the back of the tennis courts on the main road and then cut down in front of the Baptista Supermarket and back up, that was the route I did”.


1485
“Yeah”.


Reply
“And by the time I got back everyone else had done their loop and at that point then no-one had seen Madeleine. Erm, I remember saying to Matt at that point ‘You go down to main reception and phone the Police’. Erm, and I, I don’t know what Matt, erm, I don’t know what Dave and Russell did at that point. I said ‘I’m going to go up to the’, erm, ‘Kate and Gerry’s apartment’. Gerry had come down at that point. They hadn’t found Madeleine, erm, panic was starting really. Erm, tut, after that really I stayed with Kate for the rest of the evening, I didn’t, other than going onto their sort of balcony and out the front area of their apartment, I was with Kate. Erm, and Gerry, he was to’ing and fro’ing, in and out, in and out. Erm, it was just awful”.

00.49.05
1485
“So having got back from your search around the corner, did you go then straight into the McCANN’s?”


Reply
“Yeah”.


1485
“What did you see when you walked in, describe it?”


Reply
“At that point, Gerry, I don’t think was in the apartment, it was mainly Kate. And Kate was just, huh, utter disbelief and I had disbelief, thinking she’s got to be here, you know, what, how can this have happened. And by that point Kate was already saying that the, what she’d found when she’d gone back, which was that the, she’d found the window open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that’s what she was telling me and I was like ‘They can’t have done. They can’t have done this’, you know. And I looked, I looked throughout the whole apartment and I looked in all the cupboards, under the drawers, under the beds, behind the curtains, everywhere, erm, just, you know, trying to, knowing it had already been done, but you just do. Erm, tut, I looked, when I went into the room that Madeleine was sleeping in, the room was dark, Madeleine, erm, Madeleine’s bed was sort of folded back, the sheets, quite kind of neatly really, erm, Sean and Amelie were fast asleep in their cots, they didn’t stir, you know, I was opening the cupboards in the room and moving around the room, they didn’t stir at all, which that was, that was odd. Erm, we were trying to ascertain whether Madeleine could have got out, and I’ve already said earlier the shutters were very heavy, and I was almost trying to convince Kate that she could have opened the shutter and climbed out, although knowing that wasn’t a likely thing, but at that point we were just trying to pacify Kate in that Madeleine was going to be alright. Erm, and I, I think I touched the webbing in that room, but because Sean and Amelie were asleep, I didn’t actually open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the inside”.

00.50.31
1485
“And?”


Reply
“I mean, it was fairly obviously, I think, that that wasn’t what had happened and what could have happened”.


1485
“So what did you do, walk out of the apartment and round the other side then?”


Reply
“No, I”.


1485
“Or did you do it from the inside?”


Reply
“I did it from, I’m talking about, so, again, the back or the front, I did it from the back, which is where their balcony was”.


1485
“Yeah, yeah”.


Reply
“Erm, I don’t know”.


1485
“How was Kate?”


Reply
“Awful, erm, I’ve never seen such horrible raw emotion in my life and I’ve seen a lot of it in my job. Erm, tut, she, she was just bereft, she didn’t know what to do, she was just panicking, extremely frightened, extremely frightened for Madeleine and, erm, was wondering where she was or what was happening to her. And the helplessness, erm, of not being able to do anything, what should she be doing, what could they do. Erm, she was angry, really angry, tut, punching walls, kicking walls, she was covered in bruises the next day, because she just didn’t know what, what else to do. She was angry at herself, she kept saying ‘I’ve let her down. We’ve let her down Gerry’, you know, ‘We should have been here’. Erm, tut, she was praying a lot. Erm, I just don’t think she knew what to do, what to do. And she was just howling. It was just, just awful. I think as time went on it just seemed a massive delay from when we said to Matt to phone the Police, erm, that hour, it was an hour, it just seemed like an eternity, where nothing was happening, tut. Erm, you know, we’re all intelligent people, we were all trying to think what we should be doing and, you know, what’s going to make a difference. And Kate’s ringing, Gerry’s ringing anybody under the sun, family, they just don’t, they honestly just didn’t know what to do. So there was a lot of, Gerry’s in and out, I mean, they were just sobbing, going between sobbing and then feeling helpless and then ringing people and this frantic activity. Kate was desperate to have a Priest, which, you know, people find weird, but I think that was just her way of thinking ‘At least I can pray for Madeleine’ and her way of feeling that she was doing something. Erm, tut, but she wasn’t functioning”.

00.53.22
1485
“Did the twins wake up at all?”


Reply
“They didn’t. They didn’t”.


1485
“In the aftermath?”


Reply
“No, and that was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn’t, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn’t, you know, so much as blink”.


1485
“When you were with Kate in the aftermath, who else was in the apartment, I know you say that Gerry was coming and going, was there any other?”


Reply
“Gerry was coming and going. Dave came in and, erm, he came in initially with me, erm, when I went to Kate, I don’t think he went in any of the bedrooms, I think he was just mainly in the living room trying to put together what they should all be doing really, he was talking more to Gerry, so he was in. I didn’t see Russell or any of the other group in, in Kate and Gerry’s apartment. Fairly soon after, erm, a girl called Emma, who, I don’t know what her position in MARK WARNER was, she was sort of, erm, tut, I don’t know what you call them, she was mainly working at the reception area, just as a, erm, tut, I don’t know what you call her job title, she was sort of looking after everybody”.


1485
“Just one of the travel assistants or something, yeah?”


Reply
“Yeah. Erm, huh, I mean, I don’t know what time she got there, it seemed quite early on, she was, she was in the room for the most part, it was me, Emma and Kate with Gerry and Dave sort of to’ing and fro’ing until the first lot of Police arrived”.

00.55.20
1485
“Did you speak to Jane during that time or was it after that you spoke to Jane?”


Reply
“No, it was during that time and I think after I’d been in the apartment, I think the furthest I went away from the apartment at that point was just to go to the stairwell to check, because I thought nobody had checked, you know, up, going up in the building to see if she’d gone up there, and I’d started to go up the stairs and then Jane had come out and said ‘Oh Rachael’s already checked’ or somebody else was up there. And, at that point, erm, Jane had sort of rushed out and had said, you know, quietly, sort of almost pulling me away from Kate’s door, erm, ‘I saw a man carrying a child’. And the horror and realisation I think of what she had seen was quite evident at that point. And I took it as serious at that point, at what she was implying, that she thought she might have seen Madeleine. Erm, and I, in the panic, I just said at that point, I said, well the Police hadn’t arrived, I said ‘We’ve just got to tell the Police. We’ve got to tell the Police what you’ve seen’. And didn’t’ say anything to Kate or Gerry about what Jane had told me at that point”.


1485
“Did you make a conscious decision not to tell them?”


Reply
“It wasn’t a conscious decision, but Kate’s, I was just there with Kate trying to be a support and it was no way appropriate to be saying, you know, ‘A man’s carried Madeleine off’”.


1485
“And did Jane tell you or give you a description of this man?”


Reply
“No, not at, no”.


1485
“Exactly what was her words in relation to that?”


Reply
“The only time I saw Jane was at that point that night when, and all, as I say, all she said, I can’t remember her exact words, but it, it was, huh, the way she said it was urgent, it was, she was frightened and she said, you know, ‘I saw a man carrying a child and I think it might be Madeleine’”.

00.57.26
1485
“And did she say where she saw him?”


Reply
“No, not at that point. This was all in immediate panic”.


1485
“Yeah”.


Reply
“So I was running around, Jane, you know, everyone was running around. And I, I went back to Kate. And Jane, as I say, what I said to her at that point was ‘You’ve just got to make sure’, you know, ‘that you give that to the Police when they get here’”.


1485
“Was there just you and Jane at that point?”


Reply
“No, Rachael was around, erm, in the stairwell, she’d been up I think looking on the other floors, erm, so she was around. At that point I don’t recall, I don’t know where Matt and Russell were, I didn’t see them really after, you know, our immediate search, until a lot later”.


1485
“And when Jane told you what she had seen how was her voice and how was her demeanour when she told you?”


Reply
“She was shaking. I mean, we were all very shaken, I think the fact that by that point no-one had seen, you know, found Madeleine. Erm, tut, you know, as I say, I, huh, I know Jane and I know what she was saying, huh, I can’t remember whether she said it was Madeleine but I know the implication was that what she’d seen, in retrospect, was highly, highly significant and, and in her mind I don’t think really there was any doubt of what she’d seen was Madeleine being taken away. But I think the, it was almost, tut, everyone was trying to hope that that wasn’t the case, it sounds stupid now, but despite knowing even what Jane had told me, I was still hopeful Madeleine would be picked up, you know, by one of the MARK WARNER staff or, tut, and I think, you know, even for Jane, that was even despite what she’d seen, she was still hoping it wasn’t Madeleine”.


1485
“Okay. What did you do once she had told you what she saw?”


Reply
“I went back to Kate. I mean, that, that was my main kind of role that night, again, was just, I was the only one really with Kate continuously for that evening and, as I say, at that point she was just in no state to be left alone and that was what I saw as my role really”.

01.00.00
1485
“Okay”.


Reply
“I didn’t do any phone calling and I didn’t, I didn’t really do any more searching after that”.


1485
“Did you hear any phone calls or the nature of any phone calls made by members of the group?”


Reply
“There were lots of, lots of phone calls going on with Kate and Gerry, erm, of which, yeah, I, I heard snippets and bits, they phoned the family, I know Gerry phoned his sister, Trish, and he was just sobbing and hysterical on the phone”.


1485
“Did you hear any of the conversations relating to any kind of TV crews, i.e. the BBC or the ITV?”


Reply
“No”.


1485
“Anything like that at all?”


Reply
“No”.


1485
“Did you hear any names who anybody was speaking to at that time?”


Reply
“No, I mean, I know”.


1485
“Other than the family obviously?”


Reply
“At some point in the evening I was aware that, I think it was really the late hours of the morning, that, erm, I think, was it Rachael who had contacted SKY. Bit I think at that point it was just, we just felt nothing was happening and, you know, you’re just desperate wondering what to do. And I think I was aware that at some point, I think SKY News it was or BBC, one or the other, had been called by a member of our group”.


1485
“Right.


Reply
“But not Kate and Gerry, I mean, they didn’t”.

01.01.42
1485
“Tell me about the remainder of the, before you eventually went to bed, tell me exactly what happened?”


Reply
“Erm, well the next thing really was that the Police, two Policemen arriving, erm, at Kate and Gerry’s apartment and they were Portuguese obviously, didn’t really speak any English and that was, that was awful again really, because we were obviously desperate and frantic and at that point time, we were just conscious of every second that was passing by and by that time it was over an hour, I’m sure, before they arrived, but it felt like longer. Erm, and they wanted to come in the room, obviously, and, you know, see where Madeleine had been sleeping and they were checking the shutters and we were just trying to get over the urgency and it just didn’t almost feel that they were recognising the urgency, although obviously with the language barrier, I can appreciate, you know, it’s very, very hard. Erm, and Kate was getting hysterical at this point, erm, she, you know, screaming, erm, because she just wanted somebody who she felt was doing, doing something that was going to make a difference. Tut, erm, and then, they were the only two Police Officers we saw for, it seemed like quite, I don’t know, this is where the time gets difficult, but another hour I’d say, erm, and then I was conscious of more sort of uniformed Police being around, sort of out the front. I mean, we were to’ing and fro’ing between the front of the apartment and the back of the apartment. And, erm, there were loads of MARK WARNER staff obviously running around the streets, they kept coming up the stairs at the back saying ‘Have you checked the apartment’ and we’re like, you know, ‘Yeah, she’s not here’. Erm, tut, and there were some other locals who were all trying to be helpful, some helpful, some not. There was a woman who worked, I think she was work, had worked in the bar in Praia da Luz and she had actually almost invited herself up onto the balcony and was just quite drunk and not being, just not saying anything very helpful and I remember getting quite cross with her, saying ‘Look’, you know, ‘Why are you here’, you know, ‘If you’re going to be helpful get out and look for her’ and, erm, and I remember Gerry actually asking her quite politely if she wouldn’t mind just leaving them. Erm, I think she was the only one really that, that actually came anywhere near the apartment that wasn’t one of us or a Policeman. Erm, I was conscious, yeah, of a lot of Policemen in the, I don’t know what you call them, the GNR or, they had the boots, the long boots and the uniform, so they were milling around the front and the back, again, all speaking Portuguese, we didn’t really understand, you know, what they were saying or what they were doing. Erm, and I think, as I’ve said in my other statement, that’s when I, around that time I saw Robert MURAT and that was at the front of the apartment. A I say, I’d been to’ing and fro’ing between the front and the back and I’d come out of the front, really just to see if anyone knew, had any information of what was happening, and, erm, Robert MURAT actually walked over to me and shook my hand and introduced himself, erm, and told me that he was, that he was a local, he was working with the Police and he spoke Portuguese and if I needed any help or wanted any help with translation then, erm, you know, he’ll be there to help us. And I withdrew from him, I didn’t, I don’t know why specifically I remember him, I mean, I haven’t got a very good memory for faces, I think the others will say, or people, but I remember him very clearly, because he looked a bit strange and he had a squint, he had glasses, he appeared as if he was with the Police, because he was standing in front of all these uniformed Police, and maybe it was I disagreeumption that he was with them, erm, yet he was saying he was a local, and I didn’t quite, in my mind, I said, well how come you’re a local living down the road and you’re here in plain clothes yet you’re saying you’re with the Police, it didn’t, it just seemed a bit odd, erm, and he seemed overly in my face, I can’t think of a better way of putting it, he was very quite sort of almost forceful in his introduction and, you know, at that point I was sort of almost trying to steer people away from the apartment, any extra people that weren’t really needed in there, just because of what was going on inside and Kate’s state, so I didn’t really want somebody who I didn’t know, erm, in there, erm, and I think I said in my previous statement to the PJ, there was just something that made me uneasy”.

01.07.12
1485
“Had you seen him before he introduced himself?”


Reply
“No”.

01.07.15
1485
“Ever?”


Reply
“No”.


1485
“During the time that you were there?”


Reply
“No. No, and I didn’t see him again. I was aware, I mean, as I say, on the balcony you could see down to the street and I was aware of him, erm, being around after he’d introduced himself and, again, he always seemed to be with the, these uniformed Police, in their vicinity, I wouldn’t say he was with them, I don’t know what his role was, but he was certainly around, but I didn’t speak to him again”.


1485
“So a one and only time?”


Reply
“Yeah”.


1485
“And exactly where did that conversation take place?”


Reply
“It was kind of outside, erm, Rachael and Matt’s apartment, in the front”.


1485
“That is the road side?”


Reply
“On the road side, but it was under the cover, sort of between the, where the stairs are and Rachael and Matt’s apartment, that area”.


1485
“Alright. And which direction did he come from?”


Reply
“He, well he sort of came from the stair, where the stairwell was, that direction, and I was coming out of Kate’s, erm, apartment”.


1485
“So did he look to you like he had come from the actual apartment block?”


Reply
“He was already in the apartment block when I met him so”.


1485
“Alright. And you say he was in front of the local GNR?”


Reply
“Yeah, they were behind him and, as I say, it was I disagreeumption he was with them”.


1485
“Yeah. Did you actually see him or hear him speak to the local Police?”


Reply
“No”.


1485
“Did he actually offer you any assistance, any service or, I know you are saying?”


Reply
“Saying translating, that was what he said to me. I mean, he did introduce his name and I couldn’t have told you it was Robert MURAT, I couldn’t recall his name at all, but I recognise him”.

01.08.59
1485
“Right. Oh I see. So when he told you, he was a Robert MURAT, and then you realised who he was later on from the?”


Reply
“When I realised, in fact, it was the day he was made, erm, brought in for questioning and we were watching SKY News, it was the afternoon in my apartment and Russell was in the apartment, and obviously, you know, again, we were all very shocked, there was any progress, who is this man, and he was on telly and it showed a picture and I was like ‘Oh, is that the guy that was around on the night acting as translator’, you know, ‘with the squint’, because you couldn’t see in this picture, and Russell said ‘Yeah, yeah, that’s him’, but I hadn’t seen him at all in the days following, erm, you know, Madeleine’s disappearance, that, that on the telly was the next time I’d seen him”.


1485
“Yeah”.


Reply
“And that’s again what makes me positive that he was the man, because, as I said, the squint was apparent on the TV and I said ‘Oh is that’, and Russell should remember this, you know, ‘Is that the guy that’s got the squint’ and he was like ‘Yeah, yeah, that’s the same man’ and I said then ‘Oh, yeah, I saw him on the night outside’. But at that point we’d, erm, again this is something that’s baffled me, why would we lie about it because at that point seeing him around the apartment after Madeleine’s disappearance doesn’t mean anything, erm, and we didn’t know at that point that he had denied being there on the night, you know, we, we were just saying ‘Oh, yeah, he was around’, we’ve got no reason to, to make that up or lie, it’s of no consequence whether he was there or not afterwards, of implicating him in anything, so”.


1485
“Right. Okay. How did the, well I am presuming now we are into early morning, aren’t we?”


Reply
“Yeah”.

01.10.45
1485
“What happened and when did you finally get to bed?”


Reply
“It was after four o’clock, erm, tut, again, I don’t know, that, that whole period, it’s hard to sort of put a time to it. I remember it being after four o’clock, probably about half past four when we went to bed. But in that ensuing time the PJ had arrived, erm, the plain clothes detectives, I think there was a couple of them and they’d been in the apartment and obviously they, at that point, had said they needed to close off the apartment or move the twins. Erm, so I’d suggested putting the twins up in our apartment, erm, Emma, who was there, had arranged some of the MARK WARNER Nannies to get some extra cots and more bedding, erm, and we set up the cots in our living room and a bed for Kate and Gerry as well, not that they used it, but, erm, and then I think, I think they were Policemen, I can’t remember who carried up Sean and Amelie. Erm, and we sat on the sofa, me and Kate with the twins asleep on us for a while, erm, and they didn’t wake up and, again, that was quite strange, even in the transfer and, and being handled by people that weren’t their parents, they didn’t, they didn’t wake up. Erm, and we settled them down and made a bed up for Kate and Gerry and I think it was around sort of half four’ish we decided we should all try and just get, get a rest, because everyone else had gone, you know, it was just, again, it was that feeling of helplessness really, everyone had gone, erm, you know, what are we supposed to do”.


1485
“Yeah”.


Reply
“Erm, tut, so Dave and I went to bed and we tried to sleep. Erm, I think about half an hour after that or an hour after that it was starting to get sort of vaguely light and Kate had come into the room just said ‘Look, will you’, would I look after Sean and Amelie and said they need to go and look for Madeleine and, erm, which I did. And I was conscious that, you know, Kate and Gerry were wrapped up warm and went out on the streets looking for Madeleine. Erm, tut, and the next morning is, again, it’s a bit of a blur really, I know Kate and Gerry had to go in for questioning, erm, to the Police Station. Erm, you know, we helped with, with the twins in the morning and tried to keep everything as normal for them as possible. Erm, and then Dave went in with, erm, the others for the first lot of questioning. And, erm, we were sort of left at the MARK WARNER for the day, that following day. Erm, so that’s, I don’t know, time is sort of stagnant really, that following day, it’s sort of hard to put times to anything. But we, we, erm, me, my mum and Rachael and Russell didn’t go in, we were expecting to go into the Police Station at any point really, erm, expecting, you know, we would have to do a handover with kids, waiting for the other to get back, but they didn’t actually get back until quite late, erm, and then, you know, we went in the evening”.

01.14.26
1485
“Okay. Is that everything you can remember?”


Reply
“Umm, pretty much”.


1485
“Okay. Let’s give you a break and break for lunch and then we will, alright?”


Reply
“Okay”.


1485
“I just want to cover a couple of points that you raised”.


Reply
“Yeah”.


1485
“Just going back to your meal, where you say that Kate spoke about, this is probably a little bit out of synch”.


Reply
“Yeah”.


1485
“But you said that Kate told you about Madeleine waking up?”


Reply
“Yeah”.


1485
“And you couldn’t remember, you didn’t, you weren’t sure whether it was the night before?”


Reply
“Yeah”.


1485
“Or, you know, the night before that?”


Reply
“Yeah”.


1485
“What were the circumstances regarding her telling you that?”


Reply
“She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying ‘Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or’, erm, ‘or locking it and, you know, finding that we’re not there and the door’s locked if she woke up’, because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh”.

01.15.57
1485
“So she asked you what your thoughts were regarding locking?”


Reply
“Yeah”.


1485
“Did she say whether she had locked or?”


Reply
“No, that was the point, I think they said they’d left it, well she’d said she’d left it unlocked”.


1485
“Left the patio?”


Reply
“And she felt a bit nervous about it but Gerry, Gerry had sort of said ‘Oh it will be fine’, you know. But she was obviously, because it wasn’t something she was quite easy with, that’s the way it came across, you know, but, but Gerry said, you know, ‘It’ll be fine. It’ll be fine’. Because I don’t imagine she would have said anything otherwise if it hadn’t been on her mind. And the fact was she, she, you know, commented on it being really strange that, that Madeleine had said this about waking up and them not being there and she’d mentioned that in the context of that conversation”.


1485
“And can you remember exactly what she said that Madeleine had said?”


Reply
“Tut, just words such as, erm, ‘Sean and I woke up and we were crying mummy and where were you’”.


1485
“Okay. Did she say what she said to Madeleine after that?”


Reply
“No, I think, it was more, the conversation was more Kate said she was trying to get more out of Madeleine, but as kids are, you know, they sort of move on and she wouldn’t really, she couldn’t really get out of her what had caused her to wake up or, or, erm, you know, whether she’d just woken up anyway and, you know, she never, never got that out of Madeleine”.

01.17.29
1485
“And what did you say?”


Reply
“She didn’t seem frightened or anything, I mean, that is what Kate did say, you know, it wasn’t something that had frightened Madeleine. I said, in the context of the holiday, I guess I just said ‘Oh I’m sure they’ll be fine’”.


1485
“Right”.


Reply
“Much to my regret”.


1485
“Was that the early part of, I mean, because you have only got a window of about an hour really, haven’t you, in between, you know, you sitting down and Kate going and raising the alarm?”


Reply
“Yeah”.


1485
“So”.


Reply
“It was fairly early on in that evening”.


1485
“Fairly early?”


Reply
“Yeah, yeah”.


1485
“Could it have been the time that Gerry had gone to do the checking and then subsequently ran into Jez, could it have been around about that time?”


Reply
“I couldn’t say, I mean, you know, I’d say it was in the first half of the evening”.


1485
“Yeah. Is there anything else that you can remember about that conversation?”


Reply
“No, as I say, it just strikes me, in awful retrospect, that, you know, Kate, I think, had done something that she wasn’t quite happy with, in leaving the doors unlocked. And that is something again that she is going to beat herself up about for a long time to come because, you know, you, you like think that you acted on your instincts and I think her instinct was that that was something she wasn’t really happy to do”.

01.19.12
1485
“When the parents, and I know that you said that you subconsciously wasn’t taking that much interest, but when the parents came back on the Thursday, having done their relaying of checking, can you remember anything that anybody said or anybody’s demeanour that was different to how they left?”


Reply
“Nothing, nothing, everyone came back, as I say, everyone was in good spirits that night, there was a lot of laughing and joking, there was no change in, in anybody coming back as from when they went”.

Jane Tanner

4078 "Because they had the biggest apartment. Did you go into any of the other
apartments?”
Reply "We went in to Matt and Rachael’s apartment but I hadn’t been in to Kate and
Gerry’s apartment until, well the night Madeleine went missing. I hadn’t been in to
their apartment at all.”



4078 “And then what happened next?”

Reply “Erm, so I think the waiter has took Russell’s, because Russell’s food was there, so
they said ‘Oh we’ll take that away’ and they kept that, they said ‘Oh we’ll take that
away and keep that warm’. So I’d finished mine quite quickly, probably, I think I
was a fair way through or it didn’t take another four minutes or five minutes, and
then I went back, erm, to find Russell sort of, you know, with, Exx was awake and I
think he’d put her in the bath, because I think she had been, I think when he’d been in
she had actually been sick, so he put her in the bath and he put the sheets all in the
washing machine that was in the apartment. Because that’s another thing about the
sheets, but we’d been doing washing all week, because you know what it’s like with
kids, you end up with, so they were in the washing machine. Erm, yeah, and then he,
so I then, we were probably in there together for, I don’t know how long, five
minutes of whatever, and then he went back to finish off the rest of, erm, well finish
the rest of the meal”.
00.55.33 4078 “And what can you remember after that?”
Reply “Erm, well Exx was still up, so I was just with Exx in the room and I think it was
getting quite and Russell had sort of said ‘I’ll go and finish my meal and then I’ll
come back’. So the next thing I can sort of really remember is thinking ‘Oh I wonder
why he’s not’, you know, I think I was thinking ‘Oh he’s got chatting, he’s not
gonna’, you know, ‘he’s not gonna come back’, blah, blah, sort of thinking along those lines. So I don’t know whether it was the first time I’d looked out of the window to check, but I know it was the first time I thought, because I think it was odd, I looked out of the window to check, to see if I could see them still there, and that’s when the only person I could see still at the table was, erm, Dianne and everybody else seemed to have, seemed to have gone.

NOTE: Russell returned to his meal, didn't have time to finish it before kate came back and they all rushed off.  Dianne was still sitting at the table so it shouldn't have been too long at that point.

Was Jane expecting him to return quickly or did she expect him to sit and eat his meal in comfort, chat with the others and THEN return?

Why was she so concerned about him returning after (maybe/approx) 15 minutes?

Which I thought was a bit
odd, because I thought even if Russell would have come back, you know, I wouldn’t
have expected everybody else to, to have left at, you know, left at that point, so. So,
I mean, that’s the first time I thought ‘Oh’, you know, ‘What’s happened’, because I
couldn’t, you know, I could see them actually sitting in the, sitting in the restaurant.
But I don’t know how long that is from, but I think it must have been a fair while
from, because I was actually thinking ‘Oh he should be back by now’, sort of

actually, you know, to actually look out of the window”.
00.56.47 4078 “And what happened after that?”
Reply “Erm, I think that’s when I went back to the roadside, I sort of looked out of the
roadside door. I think I heard some shouting, erm, so I actually went to sort of put
my head out the roadside door. And I think it was Rachael that I saw first because
she had run back I think to check that G***e was obviously okay. And then I think
Rachael said, you know, she told me what had, you know she said ‘Oh Madeleine’s
gone’ or, you know, something along those lines. And that’s, it was almost
straightaway as she said that I sort of had that, this person sort of came into my head
at that”.
4078 “It was that quick was it after you?”
Reply “It was almost, yeah, I was sort of like, oh, it just sort of seemed a bit, the connection
made, you know, I thought ‘Oh that person was a bit odd’, he sort of seemed a bit, a
bit odd. But I think at that point I was obviously, I think I actually might have
wondered, wondered and, you know, I was sort of thinking ‘Well I’m sure it couldn’t
have been’, but it did come that immediate into my mind”.
4078 “So what happened from then?”
Reply “Erm, well I think I was in a bit of a, I mean, obviously, erm, the next thing I can
remember is seeing Kate and Fiona, they came running from the direction of Kate’s
flat, say sort of along the, sort of it’s, I’ll try and describe how it is, but as you come
into the flats there’s sort of a passageway and there’s flats above so there’s a roof and
there’s a passageway, it’s really badly described, but they came running along there
and they were shouting ‘Madeleine’ and they were like looking in the stairwell and
what have you. And Fi started running upstairs and that’s when I ran to Fi and said
what I thought, you know, I said ‘I think I’ve seen somebody’. I didn’t want to say to
Kate at that point, which might sound odd now, you know, ‘Oh why wouldn’t you say
straight away to Kate’, but, you know, the thought of telling the mother of a child
that you might have seen being carried away is, it’s too horrible to even say. So I just
said to Fi, erm, you know, ‘I think I might have seen somebody a bit odd when I came

back to do one of the checks’. And I don’t know whether she, I mean, she was just
sort of like, I don’t know whether she took it in properly, but, erm, and then they just
carried on, carried on the searching. They were sort of running around, I mean, I just
stayed, erm, me and Rachael just stayed with, in our own, but we were sort of out in
the alley, in the sort of stairwell outside our rooms, and we were sort of staying with
the kids at that point, so we weren’t actually involved in any physical running around,
searching”.
00.59.34 4078 “Did you stay sort of pretty much near to your apartment all night?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, well Exx was still up at this point so I’d sort of got her, she was still
awake, so, I’d sort of, well I’d got her, I was holiday her but sort of just standing
outside the, the door of the apartment mostly, I didn’t really move. Rachael, because
G***e was asleep, she was more moving around more, trying to, you know, see what
was happening. But, no, I was more or less at the bottom, as I say, at the bottom of
the stairs, I’d come down”. NOTE: stairs?
4078 “Who else did you speak to?”
Reply “I’m trying to think of the order, it was sort of like, it was Rachael first, then it was Fi
and I can’t remember when Russell and Matt came back, they came back at, erm, tut,
I don’t know whether they came back first or I told them or who else was there, but
as soon, the Police, when the Police came, I know Rachael went straight away to get
them to say, so that I could tell the GNR, I think, yeah, the GNR, what I’d seen, but I
don’t know if I told anybody else, I can’t remember when people like Sylvie, who
was the translator, I’m not sure when she arrived whether it was before the Police
arrived or after the Police arrived or whenever, but”.
4078 “But you told the Police when they came?”
Reply “Yeah, when they arrived Rachael I think went and got the GNR and I told the GNR
chap and then when the PJ actually arrived they came and got me to go and talk to
the, the PJ”.
4078 “Were you able to then show them sort of in real terms where you had seen the man

by actually physically taking them and showing them?”
Reply “No, they didn’t, they didn’t take me, the only time I ever showed them where I saw
it is when (inaudible), but the chap on the stairs here again, brought me back in the
middle of the night from, erm, erm, from doing the sketch, so this was like the
second, the night after, so this was quite late, it was like three o’clock in the morning,
erm, after coming, well about three o’clock in the morning after coming back from
trying to do the egg with hair sketch, I said to him then. I said ‘Can I show you
where I saw this person’, because the Press had all gone by that stage and the rest of
the day there’d been obviously quite a lot of Press there, but they’d all gone. So I
actually took him then and said, you know, ‘This is where, this is where I saw him’,
but at that time in the night all the, all the, you know, I, I honestly can’t remember
what I, you know, exactly what I said, but, but I just said I’d seen somebody and they
just sort of wrote it down and that was, that was it really”.
01.02.07 4078 “Just to comment on the egg with hair sketch and I know what you are referring to
because I think you have mentioned it to me before, but because of the lack of
software they produced this image of”.
Reply “Yeah, they couldn’t do a face”.
4078 “It was a blank face, wasn’t it?”
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “With hair on?”
Reply “With just a bit of”.
4078 “And you refer to that as the egg with hair?”
Reply “That’s the egg with hair, yeah, sorry”.
4078 “Well I knew what it was but I thought somebody later on listening to this wouldn’t”.
Reply “Yeah. No, so that’s”.
4078 “Right. How are you doing?”

Reply “No, I’m alright”.
01.02.39 4078 “Are we carrying on?”
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “Do you want a break?”
Reply “No, I’m fine, yeah, no”.
4078 “Do you want to go back over anything again?”
Reply “Erm, I don’t think so, because, I mean, to be honest, that part of the evening,
between, erm, I can’t really, but I can remember seeing some of the Nannies, the only
other thing I can remember probably before I spoke to the Police is some of the, I
think when they realised she was missing, MARK WARNER sort of got everybody
searching and I can remember some of the Nannies coming to the door and they took
my number, my phone number, my mobile number and said ‘If we hear anything
we’ll give you, we’ll let you know’ and that was three of the Nannies. And Exx was
still up at that time because I can remember them sort of, you know, saying ‘Oh hi
Exx’, blah, blah, blah. Erm, and I’m saying to them, you know, I was in a complete
state at that point and saying ‘Oh I think I’ve something’ and them just saying ‘Oh,
don’t worry’ or whatever, but, but I don’t, I can’t remember what time of night that
is, but that might have been before the Police came as well or just after the Police, but
they’re the only other real people I can remember talking to”.
4078 “Okay. Did you go to bed at all that night to get some sleep?”
Reply “Not until, it was probably about, I think about half four’ish, yeah, we tried to, tried
to go to bed, I think purely because we knew in the morning we’d be asked for
statements, so it was like (inaudible) sleep at all but it was like try and, try and get
some rest to function in the morning”.
4078 “What about Russell (inaudible)?”
Reply “Well him and Matt they were doing the, they were, I think they were sort of
searching, I don’t know where they searched, but they, they were actually sort of

running around actually looking farther afield, so didn’t really see them much at all.
I think that they did come back and as I say I can’t remember when they came back
but I remember them coming back and then they went off again. And then I think
they, Russell was there when I spoke to the PJ, because I can remember Russell
coming in with me when I spoke to the PJ, because there was Russell and Gerry was
there as well in the apartment when I spoke to the PJ. And that was the first time I’d
ever been into their, into Kate and Gerry’s apartment through the whole week, I
hadn’t, it might seem like, but we hadn’t really been into their apartment before”.
01.04.52 4078 “Sorry, was that on the night that Madeleine had disappeared?”
Reply “That was at three o’clock in the morning after she’d disappeared, yeah”.
4078 “Okay. Well tell me about that part then, how did you come to go into Gerry and
Kate’s apartment?”
Reply “Well when the GNR people came, so the first lot of Police, the local Police came,
erm, I spoke to them and I think that was through the translator, which was, I think
she’s called Sylvie, she’s the Head of Housekeeping or something, she was doing the
translating at that point. So I’d spoken to the GNR Police and then when the PJ
came, they came to get me to talk to them to say, to say what, what I’d seen. And
then I can remember the same GNR person saying to me later on in the night ‘Oh
have you spoken to the PJ’ and I had by that stage, so”.
4078 “So when you went into Gerry and Kate’s apartment who else was there?”
Reply “Erm, I think there was Russ, I think Russell came with me and there was Sylvie who
was the translator. I can’t remember which, there was some, there was a PJ chap was
sitting on the, by the table. And there was Gerry who was standing by the, the
bedroom door”.
4078 “And how was Gerry at that point?”
Reply “Oh he was just, well obviously, obviously distraught. And I think it was quite hard
for me to be saying at that, you know, looking in his face and to be explaining what
I’d seen, at that point was quite hard because, you know, Gerry was obviously

standing there, I don’t know whether, and you sort of think ‘Oh God, here’s me, if I’d
tried to stop them this wouldn’t have happened’ sort of thing. So I think I did feel
sort of a bit obviously guilty at that stage even though I didn’t know whether it was
anything, but obviously you think ‘Oh blo*dy hell, what if I’, not stopped it happened
potentially”.
01.06.30 4078 “And what was Gerry’s reaction to what you said?”
Reply “Well I don’t even know whether he took it in, I mean, he was just, he was, you
know, obviously just standing there looking absolutely horrified, so”.
4078 “And where was Kate?”
Reply “I don’t know at that point, she wasn’t, she wasn’t in the, she wasn’t there. I don’t
know whether, I think they had taken the twins out of the room by that stage, so I
don’t know whether she was up in Dave and Fi’s room”.
4078 “Did you make any observations about, erm, did you go into the room where the
children had been sleeping in Kate and Gerry’s?”
Reply “No, no, I just literally went into the first bit, so here I think the PJ guy was sitting on
a, the table was there, so I just literally sort of went into there and then out again”.
4078 “So you can’t comment on the positioning, the lighting or anything within the
children’s room?”
Reply “No, no, I didn’t, I’ve never been in that room at all”.
4078 “Okay. When was the next time you saw Kate?”
Reply “The next morning when we were being picked up by the PJ to be taken into, for the,
for questioning. They had gone up into, erm, Dave and Fi, well decamped up to
Dave and Fi’s room. There was lots of people running about and it was almost like,
you know, I’ll just, not keep out of the way, but, you know, it was almost like, we
didn’t feel we could, not we didn’t feel we could go up there, but it was almost like,
you know, I don’t know how to put it into words, but, you know, you just sort of, I
don’t know how to say this, it almost sounds like we were keeping out of the way.

which is not what I’m saying at all, but, you know, they were so distraught, it was
how do you talk to somebody like that, especially because we don’t know them that
well, so they’re closest to Dave and Fi, so we almost like left Dave and Fi, you know,
to cope with the emotional side of it, I suppose, is the best way of putting it. And,
again, you think I would be going ‘Oh I’ve seen somebody, I’ve seen somebody’, but
I’ve told the PJ, you know, and the thought of standing there and talking to Kate
about what I’ve seen is just too horrible to, you know, think about at that stage. So,
you know, that’s, that’s why I hadn’t talked directly to them at that stage”.
01.08.42 4078 “And when was the first time you did talk directly to them about that?”
Reply “Erm, well Gerry was there when I was, so, I mean, I knew he knew from that. I
don’t, the first time, I think apart from, so we got picked up in the morning and taken
to the Police Station and then they were all waiting, because I think my interview was
the longest that day, so they were all there when I came out of my interview, so that
was the next time, erm, I, I saw them, but, I mean, I don’t think we actually talked
specifically about the person I saw at that point”.
4078 “Can you remember what Kate’s reaction was when you, well I am assuming now
that somebody else would have given her the information?”
Reply “Yeah, erm”.
4078 “Did you ever have a reaction from Kate and Gerry about what you had seen and how
you felt about what you had seen?”
Reply “Not a, I mean, we hardly saw, in those first few days we hardly saw them at all
really, you know, because they were so, they were busy obviously with the Press and
with everything else, so I can’t actually remember a specific time that, I think it was,
it was actually a few days later that we actually sat down and sort of I actually told
them directly what I’d seen. I think you, you know, you assume they know and I
think at that stage I was still trying to convince myself that what I had seen hadn’t,
didn’t have the significance which I think it did now, you know, and I think, I think
that was sort of almost, I was hoping, you know, still hoping it didn’t have a

significance”.
01.10.18 4078 “So you were kind of swept up in events after that I should imagine?”
Reply “Umm”.
4078 “You were taken for interviews and you mentioned this surveillance thing, how long
after?”
Reply “Oh that was a long time”.
4078 “Did you have to go back to Portugal?”
Reply “No, no, it wasn’t that, it wasn’t that long after, that was more than a week or so
after, after all of this. I think, just going back a bit, over again, this is something, I
think when I realised the true significance of what I’d seen as well was almost like a
couple of days afterwards when, erm, erm, I was talking to Fi about the pyjamas,
because again it seems madness now why I hadn’t asked Kate and Gerry before this
what the pyjamas were like, but it’s all sort of rha rha, you know, so I didn’t know
what, what Madeleine’s pyjamas were before this. And I’d actually read in a paper
that they were white, it was in the Telegraph, I think it was the day afterwards Dianne
had bought a Telegraph paper and in there it was saying she was wearing plain white
pyjamas, so I think when I read that I almost thought ‘Oh maybe I have got it wrong’,
you know, because I’d, out of everything, I thought ‘Oh they weren’t just plain
white’, I thought they had got some sort of thing on it. So I think it might have
actually been the next morning, which would probably be the Saturday morning, I
think I said something to, about oh, to Fi ‘Oh what were the pyjamas like’ and she
actually described the pyjamas and she sort of said ‘Oh no that is what they were
like’. And that was, I think that was almost the moment when I couldn’t convince
myself anymore that it wasn’t that, you know. And then that’s, again, it’s sort of
sounds, in hindsight, it all sounds like a long period of time, but I think that was when
I thought ‘No, that was definitely’, you know, when she described what they, it was
almost like ‘Well that’s exactly what I have described to’, you know, ‘to the Police
the day after’”.

01.12.11 4078 “So in your own mind you couldn’t quite talk yourself out of it”.
Reply “No, that was then and, I mean, and Fi said she could see the, you know, the horror
on my face as I sort of realised that, it was sort of then, that was like ‘Well, no, I can’t
convince myself anymore that it wasn’t that because this is’. I mean, I think I was
fairly certain anyway, but that was, I couldn’t convince myself then that it wasn’t”.
4078 “So the Friday was taken up with the Police basically?”
Reply “Yeah, we were there, yeah, quite late and then I think we came back and the second
lot went, so Russell and Fi and Dianne went I think when we got back”.
4078 “And you said that Kate and Gerry’s time was pretty much taken up with the Police
and with the Press and all the events that?”
Reply “Yeah, we hardly, we hardly saw them at all. I think we, you know, probably saw
them once for five minutes when they were going to pick up Sean and Amelie or
something, but, you know, and they were obviously so distraught, I mean, Kate was
just crying, it wasn’t like, it wasn’t for a chat, you know, it was just sort of a, so there
was, you know, it wasn’t the time, at that point it wasn’t the time when I felt like I
could turn round and say ‘Oh what pyjamas was she wearing then’, I know that
sounds ridiculous now, but”.





4078 “And when did you next see Kate after that”?
Reply “When she was running along the front of our apartment, sort of looking under stairwell with Fi”.
4078 “And how did she look”?
Reply “Very, very agitated”.
4078 “What was her behaviour like”?
Reply “Well she was obviously very worried and shouting Madeleine, Madeleine and she, she was frantically searching for the best way to put it”.
4078 “Then the next question lastly, you went to the McCANN’s apartment which you’ve already covered”.
Reply “Mmm”.
4078 “And you didn’t go into the bedroom where the children were asleep”.
Reply “No”.
4078 “So you can’t describe that and so you wouldn’t have noticed anything unusual about them because you didn’t see them”?
Reply “No”.
4078 “What did you do next, where you stayed looking after your children, did you take part in subsequent searches for, no not that night”.
Reply “No”.
50.12 4078 “Did you take part in any of the searches”?
Reply “No, I was going to a few days afterwards but erm, Russell went and said one of us had to stay for the kids, so Russell, Russell went off with them”.
4078 “I don’t know if you can answer this, on realising that Madeleine had not been found in the first ten minutes, how did Kate react”?
Reply “Erm well I could hear her screaming from my apartment, so that’s all I could hear, sort of shouts and screams”.
4078 “And the same question in relation to Gerald”?
Reply “Erm well again I could just hear the commotion, I don’t know where it was coming from (inaudible)”.
4078 “But you said when you saw Gerry at sort of three o’clock in the morning he was just”?
Reply “Ah he was just like standing there shaking, so yeah”.
4078 “What did you think about their behaviour considering that Madeleine had gone missing”?
Reply “It was totally normal because they were just distraught yeah and just, yeah well normal for what you’d expect if they’d just found their daughter wasn’t there”.
4078 “And the following question we’ve covered really, it’s what did you do between ten thirty pm in the evening and ten am of the following day, well you were up ‘til about four thirty and you had a bit of sleep”?
Reply “Yeah it’s four thirty, probably a bit later, five, four thirty five am and (inaudible)”.
4078 “And who did you see, well it’s limited to, within range of your apartment wasn’t it, because that’s where you were”?
Reply “Yeah (inaudible) but Matt, I think Matt and Rachael actually came and stayed in our, I think they actually came and stayed in our apartment that night as well, so they were in there with G***e, so yeah I saw them all that night so”.
51.40 4078 “And the Police you saw as well”?
Reply “Oh that night, I saw the GNR Police and the PJ Police and Sylvie”.
4078 “Yes”?
Reply “Yeah, then that’s”.
4078 “The next question was who did you talk to, is that all the people you’ve just mentioned”?
Reply “Plus the three nannies, they came to the door as well, as in spoke to them”.
4078 “And Fiona you spoke to didn’t you”?
Reply “Yeah and I’m sure I saw Dave at some point as well, yeah I think I saw everybody, kept sort of coming backwards and forwards a bit”.
4078 “Yes. When did you leave Portugal, well we’ve covered that you said on the seventeenth”?
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “How many times did you meet Kate and Gerry”?
Reply “After that is that (inaudible)”?
4078 “I think so, let’s assume it means afterwards”?
Reply “Erm I didn’t actually see them until they got back in the UK, I’m trying to think, the first time was, we obviously had conversation, phone conversations and texts but I don’t think I saw them until, I think it might have been beginning of November before we actually, no it must have been before then, I know I saw them when I did the, I saw Gerry when I did the sketch, you know when the sketch came out, I saw Gerry then but I didn’t see Kate, I think the first time I saw Kate was when I went up to do the (inaudible), so that was November time, actually to see them face to face”.







4078 “Okay, okay, do you remember when you told Russell that man carrying the child”?
Reply “It was when he’d, he came back from one of the searches, I don’t know, I can’t remember how soon after it was they came back or anything but it was straight him and, can’t remember if it was him and Dave or him and Matt but I remember two of them came back to the apartment and it was, it was then, straight away”.
4078 “And when you told Russell, did you tell him with a matter of urgency, as a matter of urgency, with an urgency to the way you were telling him, or was it just an oh by the way I saw this”?
Reply “Oh no, it was a definite oh effing blah you know, I think it was a definite, oh I think I’ve seen something you know, sort of a yeah”.
4078 “Yes, and do you remember whether that was before or after you told Fiona”?
Reply “I think it was, no but I think it, I think it was afterwards cos I think Fiona, I think Fiona was fairly soon after I’d seen Rachael, so I would, I would say it was after Fiona but that’s I, I couldn’t say for sure but I think it was after Fiona”.
03.27 4078 “So is your guess that Fiona was the first person you told”?
Reply “No Rachael was the first person I told”.
4078 “Right”.
Reply “And then Fiona and then I think when Russell and Matt or Russell and Dave, whoever it was that came back, I then, then told them”.
4078 “Right. I don’t know whether you’re going to be able to answer any, anything to do with this question, but I’ll ask it and then you can tell me whether you can answer it or not. Do you know if Rachael rang the BBC that night, or early in the morning, or there’s some mention of an email from David PAYNE to the BBC, do you have any knowledge of that”?
Reply “Erm I think I remember discussions about I think Gerry might have asked Dave to ring Sky, I don’t know whether it was that way, or no to email, there was some erm talk of, I can remember talk of emailing Sky, I don’t know what, where it came from and I think that was mainly Dave, and it was Dave that I don’t whether he did it or not but that was Dave cos I think at that point, I think me and Russell are more erm wary of the media and we were like oh is it the right thing to do, then I think it now because of contacting with (inaudible), I think it was the right thing to do but I know we were a bit more of sort of like um you know, calm down and in terms of Rachael, I know she has a friend who’s married to someone at the BBC so, but I don’t know whether, I can’t, I’m not sure if she actually did it, I think it was the next day, I don’t think it was during the night”.
4078 “Well we can clarify that with them”.
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “I need to ask, I need to do an exhibit label because we know you marked on that other map that we mentioned, I think it was DM2, this one here and you’ve marked one there where you were”.
Reply “Yeah”.
05.05 4078 “Just need to do a quick exhibit label for that before I forget and again when I do the statement after this, it will include the fact that we’ve produced these two exhibits from your interviews”.

Rachael Mampilly Oldfield

about twenty five past nine, or half past nine, erm Matt and Russell got up and said that, no I think I said I’d go and check on G***e and Matt said he’d go and then Russell said that he’d go and check on E**e and E**a as well at the same time, erm and Kate got up to go and check on Sean, Amelie and Madeleine and Matt and Russell said oh you know, do you want us to do it, we’re going up there anyway so, erm she said yes and she said that the patio doors were open, so just to go in that way, erm so they headed up there, erm Matt came back about five minutes later, you know said to Kate that everything was okay, erm he’d been in and had a look at G***e, erm Russell wasn’t with him, erm he told Jane that E**e had been sick and so Russell was changing the sheets and looking after her, erm well I know all the detail about Matt you know, going into Gerry and Kate’s and all that sort of thing, do you want me to tell you that, it’s just, you know, it’s not really, I mean it’s”?
1578 “It’s not your evidence, it’s what he’s told you”.
Reply “It’s not my evidence yes, yeah, you know it’s about what we’ve all talked about as a group, erm”.
1578 “Well okay, for completeness, what did he say he did in the room”?
Reply “Erm well he and Russell went up and they were going to call at Gerry and Kate’s on the way but for some reason didn’t, they went round the back, erm Russell went into their apartment, Matt went into ours, checked on G***e, erm came out, went back to get Russell, that’s when he discovered that E**e had been sick, so Russell was sorting her out, erm so he went back round through the car park and out down the road, up the back steps into Gerry and Kate’s apartment, through the patio door, 

NOTE: Matthhew claims to have gone through Russells apartment and out the back to McCanns apartment..quickest route)

erm noticed that the door of the apartment was open but not wide open but sort of you know, sort of half open, which”.
01.13.22 1578 “Which door”?
Reply “The door to the bedroom, the twins bedroom and Madeleine’s bedroom, erm and I mean afterwards you know, he said he thought that was unusual because he thought the door would be shut, cos I mean we always shut G***e’s bedroom door, erm or at least if we did, I mean we always shut it but yeah I know some people would kind of probably just pull the door to, but he didn’t expect it to be as wide open as it was, erm so he, well he said you know from kind of standing close to the doorway, he could see that the twins were in their cots and there was no sound, erm so he just assumed everything was alright, he didn’t put his head round the door to see if Madeleine was in her bed, but he said he did wonder where she slept, erm poked his head, well you know kind of looked into Gerry and Kate’s room, just saw there was a double bed there, so you know, assumed they were all in together or, I mean I think he knew that they were all in together, erm but he didn’t actually look to see whether Madeleine was there or not”.
1578 “He didn’t open the door”?
Reply “He didn’t open the door any further no”.
1578 “Wider”?
Reply “Erm well the line of sight from where he was standing sort of from the lounge I think, allowed him to see the two cots with the two twins in and everything was quiet and erm, you know ordinarily we wouldn’t, we only really went to see, to look, actually look at G***e because you know Matt had been sick and I’d been sick and she’d sort of seemed to have had an upset stomach, erm but otherwise you know normally if everything was quiet, we wouldn’t open the door really, you know just they’re quiet, they’re not you know, as long as they’re not crying that’s, or don’t seem to be awake, then you just you know, leave them, erm so yeah he saw the twins and then you know, went out, shut the patio doors and you know came back to the table and said everything was okay, erm and then and then our main courses arrived (9.35) and we ate those and Russell was still up with E**e, so Jane ate her dinner and then she went up to relieve Russell, which is like our standing joke of the holiday,

NOTE:  Standing joke of the holiday? This was minutes before Madeleine disappeared...how could it have been the standing joke of the holiday...or...did this happen another night...maybe Tuesday when E**e was sick previously?  The sickness was just a cover for Thursday but actually happened Tuesday?) 


erm and so Russell came back and he’d ordered steak or something but they couldn’t do another one

NOTE: Someone? remembered clearly that they cooked another steak for ROB 


and brought him his food, we’d all finished I think, erm so he was eating his dinner and Kate said that she you know was, must have been about five to ten then or ten o’clock, so Kate said you know, she’d go up and check, do her check and within a couple of minutes later she came back and shouting Madeleine’s gone you know, and then we all just leapt up from the table and went up to her, followed her and Gerry, erm up to their apartment  NOTE: Gerry, Matt, Rachael David and Fiona  and erm and I remember sort of standing at the bottom of the steps, I didn’t go into the apartment, standing at the bottom of the steps by the patio doors and I think Matt and Russell might have been having a look in the garden, erm and then Matt and I went round and went to our apartment to check on G***e, erm and she was there, NOTE: Jane tanner only saw Rachael erm and then Matt sort of went back and I think he went off to sort of look a bit more and search and he, he went down to call the Police at the main reception of the Ocean Club, erm and I just stayed near our apartment really and Jane was, she didn’t know what happened, she was looking after E**e, so I went to tell Jane what had happened, erm I think it must have been, must have been after we checked on G***e or sort of, after we checked on G***e and come out and I think perhaps Kate and Fi were standing by the window, like on the outside of the apartment and no, Kate, I think Kate had said you know, somebody’s taken her, cos the shutter was up and the window was open, erm yeah, I think it was then that we kind of realised that she’d been taken, erm as, you know, as opposed to just kind of wandering out of her bed and just wondering where people were, erm and then, and I remember erm sthen going to talk to Jane and Matt went off and that, I went to talk to Jane and said you know, that Madeleine had disappeared and the window was open and the shutter was up, erm and then Jane said to me that when she’d come back to do her check, she’d seen somebody carrying a child, walking kind of across the top of the T junction, as she, as she’d been walking up from the, from the Ocean Club, they’d been walking across the top of the road and we kind of said well you know, could have been, not could have been anyone but still sure it couldn’t have been Madeleine because Gerry, cos you know if when she was, when she left the table to come up to do her check, Gerry was talking to Jez in the road, erm and so we, you know we had this discussion between ourselves, oh you know, it couldn’t have been Madeleine because you know Gerry had only just checked and he was standing in the road and surely he would have seen, or you know surely somebody couldn’t have taken her that quickly cos Gerry had literally just come out of the apartment, erm and we kind of you know battered that idea back and forward between us for you know, a couple of minutes, erm but you know, anyway”.
01.19.48 1578 “So what time did Jane tell you this”?
Reply “It must have been about, erm ten past ten or something, quarter past ten I guess”.
1578 “And whereabouts did she tell you”?
Reply “We were just outside her apartment but there was like a space between the apartments, erm sort of courtyard-y bit”.
1578 “From the car park entrance or the pool side”?
Reply “Yeah, no the car park entrance”.
1578 “And who was present when she was telling you this”?
Reply “No just me, just me, cos erm Fi was with Kate and, and Gerry and, well with Kate and Gerry I think and all the boys were sort of, had started to look around and started to, Matt had gone to the Police Station to, no gone to the Ocean Club to phone the Police”.
1578 “What was Jane’s demeanour when she was telling you this”?
Reply “Erm she was quite shocked, well we were kind of bit puzzled, cos we thought well you know, could it really have been cos Gerry had just been in, erm but it was a bit of a sort of Jane was like, everybody gob smacked really that you know, she could well have seen Madeleine, erm but we did, you know we, we didn’t have this discussion about whether it could have been just because of the sort of time of Gerry going in and him standing outside talking to Jez and you know, it would have been, somebody would have had to you know, sort of be very quick, or have been in the room when Gerry had gone in, we didn’t talk about that at that time but, you know afterwards, erm obviously that was, I think we kept, yeah I mean we basically came to the conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room when Gerry had gone in to check”.
01.21.46 1578 “Okay”.
Reply “So anyway Jane and I you know talked about that and, and then I can’t remember whether she told, I think she told Fiona then, erm I mean basically you know as soon as the Police arrived, she told, she told the Police”.
1578 “When you, when you rose from the Tapas table and you followed Kate”.
Reply “Mmm”.
1578 “To their apartment 5A, you said that you didn’t go into the apartment”.
Reply “Yeah didn’t go in”.
1578 “Who were you with at that point”?
Reply “Well we were altogether really, I think I was probably at the back with Matt, had some high heels on that I couldn’t really run very fast, remember that”.
1578 “And then”?
Reply “I got to the bottom of the steps and Dave and Fi and Gerry and Kate were already sort of on the balcony of Gerry and Kate’s apartment, and I think had maybe already gone inside, erm and I think, I think Russell and Matt maybe went into the garden and just had a quick scoot around there to make sure”.
1578 “And then shortly after yourself and Matt”?
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “Went round”.
Reply “Went round”.
1578 “To your apartment”?
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “How soon after”?
Reply “Well literally like you know a minute, was sort of a minute, no more than that”.
1578 “And you’ve, you’ve walked past the front or car park side of the apartments”?
Reply “Well yeah, you, well you go through the car park, you go up the road and turn left and then kind of cut in through the car park and then to get to our apartment, erm you go down a ramp and there was that courtyard area, I could draw it (inaudible)”.
1578 “Yes”.
Reply “Erm because”.
1578 “There is, there’s a number of sketches that I’d like you to do”.
Reply “Yeah okay”.
1578 “We’ll come on to this, as you’re walking across”.
Reply “Mmm”.
1578 “Across the car park to your apartment, you’ve obviously, I dare say got G***e on your mind haven’t you”?
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “Did either of you at that point look across to the shutters and window of Gerry’s apartment”?
Reply “No, no, we didn’t know at that time that they were kind of up and the window was open and the sort of view you get as you’re walking across the car, you walk across the car park there’s a diagonal to get to the sort of ramp that goes down into the apartments, so Gerry and Kate’s you know shutters were here, erm that you kind of come into the car park and walk that way, so I don’t remember looking there at all, it was just like you know, get to our apartment and make sure that G***e is okay”.
01.24.36 1578 “So on the route that you walked to your apartment”.
Reply “Mmm”.
1578 “Would there be anything in the way, preventing you from seeing the shutters, or would you have had a direct line of sight of the shutters”?
Reply “We would of, well if you’d kind of, if you turned to look that way, you’d have had direct line of sight of the, for the shutters but we were walking that way, so and I think you know, didn’t really look round, I mean there might have been a car parked there I don’t know but I don’t think there was, cos the car park was at this level and then there was a wall, erm and you know it was quite a big drop, maybe sort of about, like a four or five foot drop down from the car park onto the path that ran in front of the, Madeleine’s bedroom and, and the bedroom that we were in”.
1578 “Yes”.
Reply “So it was kind of down in a, I mean you know the shutters were there, at probably a car park level but you know there, there was quite a big drop off the car park”.
1578 “Okay”.
Reply “Onto that path”.
1578 “So let’s just continue then, you spoke about the conversation you had with Jane”?
Reply “Mmm”.
1578 “What happened next”?
Reply “Erm, erm it was just sort of you know, chaos really, erm Matt went down to call the Police, erm I mean people just, I mean you know Russell and Dave kind of went off and looked just around the roads”.
1578 “What did you do”?
Reply “I basically just hung near our apartment, I didn’t want to leave G***e, erm I mean she was”.
01.26.28 1578 “Did you have G***e with you”?
Reply “No, no she was asleep and I didn’t, you know I didn’t want to leave the apartment by itself”.
1578 “No”.
Reply “Erm and Jane you know had E**e because she’d been sick, so she was sort of standing by the door, so I sort of you know, I was kind of talk to Gerry and then every now and then I’d go back and check on G***e, erm at one point, probably not that long after, maybe about ten thirty or something, Gerry and I looked at, up at the stairwell and kind of across all the floors of the block that we were in, erm and that was really the, that was all the searching that I really did, just up the stairs, I think they were five floors or something”.
1578 “And that was just you and”?
Reply “And Gerry”.
1578 “And what time was this”?
Reply “Erm I mean that would have been you know about half ten or something like that, erm and then”.
1578 “What was Gerry saying”?
Reply “Erm I don’t know, I don’t remember, erm no I don’t remember in particular, erm”.
1578 “And how long did you spend doing that search”?
Reply “It was just really a quick you know, it would have been about five minutes, it was just up the flights and along the, you know the sort of verandas in front of the apartments, erm but there wasn’t really anywhere you know, somebody could hide, well you know, if Madeleine had sort of wandered by herself, erm you know there were just really open corridors that we were just kind of looking to see if there was anything down there, erm”.
1578 “Then what did you do”?
Reply “And then I went back downstairs and really just sort of stood by Jane and we were just waiting for the Police to come, erm which you know took ages, I remember ringing Matt at least once or twice to say you know, look have you rung them, where are they, erm and I think at one point he did come back up again and the Police still hadn’t arrived and I think Gerry’s told him to go back down and ring them again, erm and then, I you know, didn’t really see him much or at all, I think they went off searching sort of down at the beach and around the village, erm and I just stayed up with Jane and you know, kind of checked on G***e every five minutes, just, even though I could see the front door, there was lot of panic situation”.
1578 “Did you, did you see the Police arrive”?
Reply “Erm yeah I mean not to kind of erm, I mean I was aware that they’d arrived, I couldn’t say whether, you know that I saw, they didn’t kind of come and park in the erm car park, I was aware that they’d arrived, erm”.
1578 “What time was that then, where are we up to now”?
Reply “Erm I think it was probably about half eleven, quarter to twelve, I mean they took a good hour or more than an hour to, to arrive, erm I think they arrived erm just before midnight that sort of time and it was uniformed GNR, uniformed guys, erm you know I think they went to Gerry and Kate first of all and then erm, and then I remember them coming, I mean obviously Jane wanted to tell them about seeing this person carrying a child, erm and by that time there were lots of people milling around, nannies and lots of Mark WARNER staff and people from the village, erm I mean I think that the Police went to see Gerry and Kate and then were kind of you know, wandering through and we were in that courtyard area and I think Jane got, I looked after E**e and Jane went off and told, I remember there was a, you know, but I don’t know whether he was kind of the head guy or, but he may be a bit more senior, he had a blue uniform on I think, long boots, erm and Jane went off and told him about seeing somebody carrying a child away, or carrying a child so erm and I held on to E**e while she did that, then she came back, erm and then it was either shortly, I think it was, I don’t know whether it was before that, it was either before that, or maybe it was at that time, maybe it was while Jane no, erm because at some stage pretty much, I think it was round about the time when the Police had arrived that, because obviously they couldn’t really speak English, erm they turned up with MURAT and there was a lady called Sylvia who worked for Ocean Club, she sort of organised the cleaners, or something like that and she kind of came up with the Police and Robert MURAT was there as well and you know he said that he was English but he spoke Portuguese and”.
01.32.59 1578 “What time is it now”?
Reply “I think that was about, it was about midnight, half past twelve, it was you know very shortly after the Police arrived, I think they’d been to Gerry and Kate and then they headed our way, think it was about half twelve, erm and yeah MURAT introduced, well you know he said, hi I’m Robert and I speak Portuguese and you know, can I help translate, erm and introduced himself and I shook his hand and then Sylvia as well with the Ocean Club, introduced herself and erm I don’t really, particularly remember talking to the Police, erm but yeah, they, they were there basically and that was about half past twelve, erm and erm I don’t, I don’t know where Jane was then, she wasn’t around, I mean she might have just been back inside the apartment, this is out in the, that courtyard area, erm and I think Russell came up then as well, erm and you know we were just sort of, but there were lots, lots of people, not just the Police and Robert MURAT and Sylvia, there were lots of other people sort of hanging around and looking and you know wondering what was going on, erm but Russell was there as well, erm and then the Police just sort of moved on, erm, erm you see and I think at that time, Russell got Robert MURAT’s mobile phone number, I mean I know Russell thinks it was the next day but I don’t know, I thought it was then that night, cos he thought it might be quite useful as he could speak, you know cos he could speak English and Portuguese”.
1578 “Well what did you witness in respect of that”?
Reply “Well I think at that time Russell got his number and put it into his phone, erm”.
1578 “Is that what you saw”?
Reply “Yeah, but cos it’s almost a year ago now, I mean you know, Robert MURAT was definitely there, I’m absolutely a hundred per cent certain about that, erm and I think, and I think at the time also and I think it would be in my Portuguese statement, that Robert MURAT gave Russell his mobile phone number then at that time as well, erm although since time’s passed and Russell kind of says oh he thinks that might have been the next morning, I kind of half think well it might have been the next morning but I think at the time I certainly thought and I’m sure it’s in my Portuguese statement that MURAT gave Russell the phone number that night, erm, but yeah I mean, you know he was definitely there, irrespective of whether he gave the mobile phone number or not, you know I’ve absolutely no doubt that he was there, erm and, and then you know, we were just like you know, I just basically stayed in the same spot pretty much and checked on G***e and talked to Jane and erm you know, just lots of people milling around and people going off searching and shouting Madeleine and erm, and then you know we decided at one, you know at some point that we should go to bed and I think that might have been at about, about three in the morning perhaps, not sure though, I mean it could be, could have been, could have been much later, I don’t think it was much earlier than that though”.
01.37.08 1578 “Okay, that’s about it”.
Reply “Yeah I think from that night, erm”.
1578 “Do you remember the clothing that you wore that evening down at the Tapas Bar”?
Reply “Erm yeah, I had white trousers on and some high heeled sandals which I then changed into trainers after, you know when we went back to check on G***e after we discovered that Madeleine had gone, erm and I mean I know I would have had my fleece and my denim jacket on because it was freezing sitting outside, you know and maybe a T-shirt and a jumper as well”.
1578 “Colours”?
Reply “Erm well denim jacket, sort of jean denim, erm black fleece, which I would have had under my jacket, yeah so that’s probably all you’d have seen of me from the outside, I think I, I might have had a red and white striped jumper on underneath that and maybe just a vest top”.
01.38.17 1578 “What about when you were eating at the table”?
Reply “Yeah I had all that on as well, it was really cold in the evenings, you didn’t take”.
1578 “Chilly evening”.
Reply “Didn’t take enough warm things, so it was like the, all the jumpers that we had yeah”.
1578 “Okay. Do you remember what Matt was wearing”?
Reply “Erm he didn’t take many clothes either, he had erm, I mean I know over the top of everything, he would have had erm a sort of a windproof-y it’s not a fleece but that type of thing, which is like a grey colour and his, think it’s Eider, Eider make, erm and I think black linen trousers I think, I don’t think, or did he take jeans, he either had jeans on or black linen trousers and that top and he probably would have had a shirt underneath that, or you know, or a T-shirt, erm and I think you know maybe trainers on his feet, cos it was a bit cold for anything else really”.





1578 “Which route would you have taken when you went to check on the apartments”?
Reply “Erm, there was a path down here, right here, then up the road (inaudible) and then in here and then the kind of, the entrance to the, to the apartments is sort of here, with a little ramp down, so that”.
1578 “Okay”.
Reply “And then (inaudible) our apartment was about, sort of here, the door, cos the door to Gerry and Kate’s was kind of on the front, the door to ours was on the side”.
1578 “I think that, that may be”.
Reply “Is that supposed to be”?
1578 “One apartment”.
Reply “Right okay”.
01.48.26 1578 “So you would have been next door wouldn’t you”?
Reply “Yep, that looks a bit big to be one, I think it would have been about, would have been a lot in that block”.
1578 “Would there”?
Reply “Yeah. Erm cos there was this little alleyway between these two blocks and erm there would have been probably about, maybe about eight across here”.
1578 “Okay”.
Reply “Erm but yeah the door to our apartment was sort of on the side here”.
1578 “Let’s get the, another piece of paper, if you want to expand on that view”.
Reply “Okay”.
1578 “Just a larger scale if you like”.
Reply “So yeah, erm, sort of Gerry and Kate’s apartment is sort of like that, and ours was like this, then came down, my front door was sort of here, their front door was there, erm and then across here there’s erm the door to apartment C was here, (inaudible) went across a bit more and the door to apartment D which was Russell and Jane’s was there, then it went out again, then that, so this is that sort of courtyard-y bit and then this is the wall here”.
1578 “Yes”.
Reply “This is the (inaudible) down, this is the car park, erm and, and there’s, there was a lift here, a lift and stairs up to the next floor, erm and then there was a ramp that sort of came round here from the car park bit, erm and then this side, what’s that by the steps, the side of the steps, and there’s steps down here, (inaudible) yeah that’s the car park, then the road was up here, there’s an entrance into the car park as well er, that’s okay (inaudible) about that, down the steps and then to our door”.
1578 “This is when you went to check on G***e”?
Reply “Yes”.
1578 “So how close would you have been to the shutters”?
Reply “Erm, that’s the door, there were shutters, think they only had one set of shutters in their room and we had two sets (inaudible), erm well I mean not particularly close, erm and sort of walk this way, so erm it would probably be, erm about ten yards”.
1578 “Yes”.
Reply “That would be about right, erm yeah, I mean certainly from here to the shutters would be, so yeah you know when you’re getting kind of, I mean the closest you would be, I suppose would be when you’re about here and that would probably be about, erm be like fifteen feet away or something like that, twenty feet in length”.
01.54.01 1578 “Are there any street lamps in this car park area”?
Reply “No, there were street lamps on the road, I think there were street lamps on this street, which is where you come up, but erm and you know a couple of street lamps probably along this road, but the, the car park wasn’t, I don’t think was lit, there were, there were lights in here and then when you actually got in here, there were extra lights to put on, erm and I don’t think there were any lights in the car park”.

NOTE: Someone (Jez Wilkins?) mentioned automatic lights?
1578 “Whereabouts did you have a chat with Jane when she told you about the man and child”?
Reply “Erm just here”.
1578 “Do you want to mark that sort of position, Rachael and Jane okay. So if we call this RMJM101, that 102. We’re getting quite close to the end of, of this tape now”.



1578 “Okay. In the days before Madeleine went missing, did you at any time check on your children, if so, how often”?
Reply “Erm yes I mean when we were at dinner, that was what we did in the evenings was have dinner and check on the children, well I mean we only, until the Thursday, we only checked on her own children, so Matt and I just checked on G***e and that would of you know, every sort of twenty to thirty minutes, erm while we were having dinner”.
1578 “On the Thursday night”?
Reply “No on, on, on the other nights”.
1578 “On the other nights sorry”.
Reply “And on the Thursday night you know it worked slightly differently and there was much more movement and much more checking than there had been on other nights for some strange reason, I mean not for anything particular but just that’s the way it happened, erm yeah and erm up until that night, each family had only checked on their own children, erm whereas on the Thursday, you know Matt, Matt when and checked on Sean, Amelie and Madeleine, erm you know and that hadn’t happened before”.
1578 “Yes”.
Reply “But the only time we needed to check was you know when we were having dinner cos that, that was the only time that you know G***e was left by herself, when she’s having her lunch time naps you know, we just sat on the balcony, we didn’t check, you know we didn’t check then that she was in the room, I mean you know, erm and otherwise she was in crèche or we was at erm”.



and then Kate left at sort of about ten, just before ten, went up and came back, well she was probably away about five minutes, maybe slightly longer, I think she looked round the apartment, just to make sure Madeleine hadn’t wandered into one of the other rooms, erm and then she was back and then, and then we all headed off then, erm anyway then they were together I think for pretty much most of the rest of the night, you know they were both you know, pretty much hysterical and screaming and shouting and erm, then I really kept out of the way just sort of checking on G***e and talking to Jane, erm remember I was sort of avoiding being there really, just, you know it was just awful”.
1578 “Yes, but you briefly checked the stairwells with”?
Reply With Gerry yes”.
00.47.32 1578 “Gerry”.
Reply “Mmm yeah”.
1578 “Yes”.



“Did you see Kate leaving the table during the meal”?
Reply “Just at five to ten, ten o’clock”.
1578 “About how long was she absent”?
Reply “About five minutes, slightly longer, you know, five to seven minutes maybe”.
1578 “And what did Kate say when she got back”?
Reply “Madeleine’s gone, Madeleine’s gone, she repeated it twice, well she kept, I mean she didn’t actually get back to the table, she kind of was erm about three quarters of the way down the path that came from the Reception towards the Tapas and she shouted, ‘Gerry, Madeleine’s gone, Madeleine’s gone’ and then we all got up and ran after her and back up to their apartment”.
1578 “How did she look”?
Reply “Distressed, upset, she was crying”.
1578 “What was her behaviour like”?
Reply “Well I mean she was really upset, she was erm you know, shouting, ‘Madeleine’s gone’ and then as we’re running up the road, you know just carried on repeating that, erm and crying, sort of you know, kind of verging on the hysterical really”.
1578 “Were you shocked yourself by what she said”?
Reply “Yeah, I mean my, you know, my initial reaction was that you know Madeleine must have got out of bed and you know possibly wandered into the garden or something like that, erm but then when, when Kate said that the shutters were up and the window was open, erm I mean we were shocked anyway that she’d gone, but then when the shutters were up and the windows were open and we knew that, that was even more disturbing, erm and it was just a really horrible feeling, erm you know the immediate thought was that somebody had taken her, erm and then you know, I mean as we left the table and went and was sort of following Kate, erm the sort of anxiety was growing about you know G***e and was she okay and was she there, erm so it was kind of a quick stop at the bottom of the steps of their apartment and then carrying on to make sure that G***e is alright, erm you know and she was, erm and then it was just sort of back to and then, and you can’t describe that feeling but erm where could Madeleine be and you know who could have taken her and erm and just sort of erm, that that and the anxiety and that feeling sort of helplessness and you know what we’re gonna do and you know, let’s start looking, it was that sort of, you know just general sort of you know panic and erm and you know Gerry and Kate were you know pretty hysterical and sort of inconsolable and screaming and shouting and erm and it was just a really awful sort of situation, erm and you know and it’s not really changed”.
01.12.35 1578 “What did you do”?
Reply “Erm well followed Kate back to their apartment, we just sort of stood at the bottom of the steps and that you know, I didn’t really want to go in and erm and then went round to check on G***e with Matt, erm and then once you know we’d seen her and she was still asleep, erm Matt went off and I went to Russell and Jane’s apartment and told Jane what had happened and then Jane told me that she’d seen somebody carrying a child away”.
1578 “Did she actually tell you that inside her apartment, or when you were outside in the courtyard”?
Reply “No it was sort of outside in that courtyard, just sort of outside her door though”.
1578 “Did you go into the McCANN’s apartment”?
Reply “No”.
1578 “Did you go into the bedroom where the children were asleep”?
Reply “Er no”.
01.14.39 1578 “Say if that’s a no then you can’t describe what you saw”?
Reply “No”.
1578 “Did you see the twins”?
Reply “No”.
1578 “And again did you notice anything unusual about them”?
Reply “No I didn’t see them”.
1578 “What did you do next, did you take part in the subsequent searches”?
Reply “I mean only just searching the steps and the other floors with Gerry”.
1578 “Just yourself and Gerry”?
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “And that’s the only search you did”?
Reply “Yes”.
1578 “On realising Madeleine had not been found in the first ten minutes, how did Kate react”?
Reply “She was really upset, she was hysterical, really distressed, crying and screaming, there’s no way she could have acted that, or anyone could have in fact, I don’t think, not even an actress”.
1578 “On realising Madeleine had not been found in the first ten minutes, how did Gerry react”?
Reply “Very similar to Kate, it was you know screaming, shouting, erm crying, just you know, he was very much a, you know a father whose child had disappeared, as Kate was a mother whose child had disappeared or wouldn’t you know”.
1578 “What do you think about their behaviour considering that Madeleine had gone missing”?
Reply “I think it was a very erm you know natural reaction, I can’t image that anyone else would act differently in that sort of situation and that you know, I don’t think it’s something that you could put on either”.
01.17.53 1578 “What did you do between ten thirty pm in the evening and ten am the following day, who did you see”?
Reply “Erm well most of the time I spent talking to Jane and sort of checking on G***e, erm and saw, I remember the nannies coming up to talk to us, some of the Mark WARNER nannies and they’d been searching and looking round the village and sort of you know, rallying friends and people that they knew, erm I mean we were waiting for the Police for a lot of that time cos they didn’t turn up for ages, erm and, and then when the GNR did arrive, erm you know, they came to say hello and erm Sylvia was there with them and so was Robert MURAT, erm there were other people sort of milling around in the background but Sylvia introduced herself and so did Robert MURAT, erm I mean he just introduced himself to me as Robert and we shook hands, erm and then sort of remember talking to somebody from I think, think (inaudible) one of the apartments on the floor above, sort of an older guy, kind of said oh he went missing when he was a child for about ten days and he, and he, you know he came back again sort of thing, well he was, I can’t remember whether he said he was taken or, it wasn’t that he’d run away, I mean maybe he sort of too young to remember or something but he said that he was missing and he’d reappeared, erm and yeah just and then erm after the Police arrived, erm I mean we were just you know talking about what we should do and then I thought of ringing James LANDALE and you know seeing if we could get it on the news, erm and made those phone calls, erm and then the PJ arrived, I don’t know what time that was though, probably about two-ish or something, erm and, and then I think we went to bed about three, maybe might have been a bit later but we did think we ought to go and get some sleep, erm cos there wasn’t really much that we could do, erm and then that morning, erm I mean G***e was always up sort of about six, half six, erm and when we got up you know everything was quiet outside, they didn’t seem you know the Police didn’t seem to be around or, there didn’t seem to be any activity, erm Matt took G***e up for breakfast to the Millennium, erm and they came back, I remember having, sort of being on the phone a little bit to the BBC I think that morning, erm and then sort of various phone calls, I talked to John CORNER who’s a friend of Gerry and Kate’s, erm cos the BBC wanted a picture of Madeleine, erm and he had some photos that he was going to be able to send them, erm and then and I think maybe about ten-ish, well we would have taken G***e to crèche I think for about nine half nine I think did we that day, I think we took her, erm then I think about ten, half ten Gerry, Kate, Matt and Jane and maybe Dave as well, erm went to Portimão to the Police Station to start doing interviews”.
01.23.20 1578 “The next question is, who did you talk to, so was there anyone else that you’ve not covered”?
Reply “I don’t think so no”.
1578 “The older guy”.
Reply “Mmm”.
1578 “From the apartments upstairs said that he had been”.
Reply “He had been”.
1578 “Or he had disappeared or”.
Reply “Yes when he was a child, erm”.
1578 “Do you know which apartment he was in”?
Reply “No, erm”.
1578 “Or his name or description”?
Reply “No, erm he had grey hair, sort of slim-ish guy, erm he was with a woman you know, his wife I presumed, erm”.
1578 “What nationality was he”?
Reply “He was English, British, erm you know he must have been in his sixties, erm”.
01.24.39 1578 “Do you know which apartment he was in”?
Reply “No I don’t”.
1578 “Where did you speak with him”?
Reply “Because we were”.
1578 “Sorry, where did you speak”?
Reply “Oh where, just in that courtyard-y bit, kind of at the bottom of the steps, just outside Russell and Jane’s apartment really, they were going up, back up to their apartment, erm and he knew what had been going on, or you know I think he’d been out in the village or and well he knew that there was a child missing and he said, you know, don’t worry it will be alright or something like that, or you know, I went missing when I was little and I came back, erm but no I don’t know what his name is or which apartment he was in”.
1578 “And you mentioned another guy, John CORNER”?
Reply “Yes, he’s a friend of Gerry and Kate’s who was in England, I spoke to him on the phone, on Kate’s phone actually”.
1578 “Okay”.
Reply “That was the next morning, sort of you know, eight o’clock in the morning, that sort of time”.
1578 “When did you leave Portugal”?
Reply “On the erm, erm the Thursday the erm seventeenth of May, it was a Thursday, I think it was the seventeenth”.
1578 “And who was that with”?
Reply “Erm Russell and Jane, E**a and E**e, Matt, G***e, me and erm, no just us”.
1578 “Okay”.
Reply “Craig from Mark WARNER was all, sort of also travelled with us, which cos he was going back to the UK as well”.
01.27.00 1578 “So during that two week period then after Madeleine had disappeared, how many times did you meet with Kate and Gerry”?
Reply “Erm, I mean not, not that often, erm I mean I think, mmm, oh we didn’t kind of meet up specifically to chat or talk about things or see what was happening, erm I mean we just seen them sometimes at the crèche when they collected Sean and Amelie, although quite a lot of the time Sandy who’s Gerry’s brother in law and Trish who’s Gerry’s sister erm collected the twins, erm I think one afternoon we kind of sat down in Dave and Fi’s apartment and talked to Gerry and Kate and they sort of told us you know what was happening and what was being done and erm that would probably have been either Sunday or the Monday, something like that but I mean I can’t be certain about days, erm and we saw them at church, when we went to church, I think the first time we went to church was on the Saturday and then we went on the Sunday, cos it was like a Mothering Sunday thing on Sunday, we went then, erm and then I think on the Thursday after, the following Thursday the tenth, there was some sort of vigil in the church and then we went to church again on the Sunday the thirteenth and on the Saturday the twelfth, which was Madeleine’s birthday, erm we went to a villa near the Resort, near, on a Resort and sort of had a barbecue and sort of had a quiet day, we sort of, cos it was Madeleine’s birthday”.
1578 “Do you think they were showing normal behaviour for parents who had lost a child”?
Reply “Mmm yes absolutely, I mean you know I’ve never met any other parents who’ve lost a child but I would assume that that’s how people would behave, I mean you know Kate cried a lot and erm, well I can’t imagine how people would behave differently, you know, I don’t think anyone could just sort of, yes alright okay this is you know, she’s disappeared but we’re just gonna carry on as normal, well you just couldn’t do that I don’t think, don’t think anyone could, so I think they, you know the way they behaved was entirely natural”.
01.31.05 1578 “During the time you were on holiday, did you notice any situation where Kate and Gerry were talking to any unknown person”?
Reply “No I mean, no I mean nobody that there was you know not another family that were on holiday but I don’t specifically remember them talking to other couples that, or you know families that were on holiday aside from Steve and his wife on the night of the third and then erm, erm I mean when the children were playing in their recreation area, but I don’t specifically remember them talking to anyone but you know we’d all kind of say hello to other parents, or you know ask what they’d been doing that day, that sort of thing, but you know, nobody that was like a stranger, nobody that didn’t have kids really, erm because everyone in that sort of, in the compound where the recreation area was and where the swimming pool was, were Mark WARNER guests, holiday guests and I think everyone had children”.
1578 “Did you see Kate or Gerry inside any car during the holiday period”?
Reply “During the whole time that we were there, or just, or up to the third of May or, I mean I never saw them in a car the whole time, I mean there was no car”.
1578 “Answers the question then”.
Reply “Yeah, other than you know sort of going to the Police Station and that sort of thing, but that would have been driven by Police”.
1578 “Is there any supplementary explanation that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth”?
Reply “Erm what do you mean, in just sort of anything as well”?
1578 “I guess do you have any other information that would assist the enquiry”?
Reply “Mmm I mean nothing, you know it was just a really quiet Resort, there was nobody about you know before, I mean even after, until the media arrived, the place was dead really, erm I mean, kind of feel that you know, you would have noticed, you know ought to have noticed if there were strangers around or sort of people who looked slightly odd or were hanging around too much, but then again you know when you, kind of eyes that tend to be on the ground because you know, everyone’s got small children, you tend not to be looking up that much, so erm no but it was just so quiet that anyone really without children would you know, would stand out, erm you know but there were places where people could hide you know, there were, there cer, there were certainly areas you know near that car park and those apartments off, opposite where there are bushes, where somebody could hide and be watching us, erm you know and our routine was so set, you know every night we had dinner at eight thirty in the Tapas, erm and it wouldn’t have been hard to find that out, erm or to just you know, watch every night and see what we did, erm so but I mean you know, there was, you just didn’t see anything unusual, erm and you know the only thing that really sort of bugs me is that you know Robert MURAT was there that night and for some reason he said he’s not but you know, when he was arrested, or taken in for questioning, erm I mean had a really uneasy feeling about him on the night when I met him and I said this to the Portuguese, I said it in my, it’s erm, I did three statements and the third one that I did was specifically about seeing MURAT on the night, erm and when I met him on the third of May and we shook hands, erm and he said he wanted to help, you know he was one of those people that I just kind of took an instant dislike to almost, just felt really uneasy about him and erm he just came, he was just sort of very over familiar and kind of wanting to be in the thick of things, and I just thought that was slightly odd behaviour, erm and you know I, you know didn’t think sort of anything of it really at the time, just some you know, a bit odd, erm and then we saw him again, I don’t know which day it was, it must have be, it wasn’t, it was either, I think it might have been the Saturday erm I was coming back from the Supermarket with Russell, I think maybe with Fiona, don’t know whether it was Fi but Russell was definitely there and we saw him again and he just kind of said, ‘hello and how’s things going’ and then erm he was in the church on the Sunday I think, the first Sunday after Madeleine disappeared, erm and I just had this funny feeling about him and because when Jane had seen this man carrying the child, when we’d been discuss, you know when she told me that she’d seen somebody carrying a child, she said at the time she thought it was odd but you know, kind of as you’re wandering about every day, you see lots of things that are odd but you know, you don’t really sort of act upon it, erm so just cos I thought that MURAT you know just gave me a funny feeling, I thought I’d just tell everyone but I just thought you know, he was a bit strange or he just made me feel uneasy and I was literally about to do that and I remember I went for a run along the beach and came back, and this is on Monday the erm the fourteenth, the day that he was arrested or whatever, erm as I went for a run, came back, thought I’ll just, you know had a shower and stuff and thought that I’d go and tell everyone that you know I just didn’t like him and had this uneasy feeling about him and I switched on the TV and he was there you know, being taken off to the Police Station, which you know, made me feel quite sick, it was a horrible feeling, erm anyway that was kind of the end of that, erm and it was only, and then it was, and then the next day erm the only reason that sort of me and Russell and Fiona ended up doing statements about seeing Robert MURAT on the night, was that Jane was talking to Bob SMALL the next day about doing this sort of, I think it was connected to that surveillance thing she’d done, erm I think it was on the Sunday, erm and she’d mentioned to him that you know, obviously when I’d seen MURAT on the TV, I’d said oh you know, he was there on the night and you know we spoke, erm it was only cos Jane mentioned that to Bob SMALL that he ended up sort of calling back later on and saying actually you know, you’d better talk to the Portuguese about that, erm you know at that time, we didn’t know that he was, I mean I didn’t know that he was saying he wasn’t there on the night, that only came out I think, I don’t know even if I knew about that before I left Portugal, erm, erm so then you know, and then we, Russell, Fiona and I went back to Portugal to do that sort of sitting in the room with him, to see whether he’d kind of break under the pressure or whatever, erm I mean he didn’t, you know he was just telling lies about being there on the night and I, you know nobody, oh I don’t know, I presume that has been followed up but it just seems quite significant, I don’t know why it hasn’t been posted in the media, it doesn’t seem to have been pursued, which kind of makes you think that the Police haven’t really done much about it, erm you know they’ve kind of gone after Gerry and Kate and that’s been all over the papers and erm you know, there’s this man who was there on the night, who’s telling, you know, who’s lying about it and nothing really about that’s come out, erm you know in the Press we were made out to sort of be the bullies in the, that stand off with him you know it was all very controlled and you know, just yes he was there and he was saying he wasn’t you know, there was no shouting and screaming or anything like that which the Press made out to be, erm but you know he was there and the Police were there with him on the night as well, you know the GNR, I think he was translating, and yet you know he’s saying that he wasn’t there and everyone seems to believe that, or that’s you know, that’s my impression anyway”.
1578 “Okay. We shall finish this interview at this point”.
Reply “Mmm”.
1578 “And I’ll go and speak with colleagues”.
Reply “Okay”.
1578 “There’s, there is one other issue that I need to ask you about, hopefully it won’t take too long”.
Reply “Okay”.




At the end of the last interview, you indicated that you would like to talk about the conversation Jane had with you in respect of her sighting”.
Reply “Mmm erm”.
1578 “Would you like to run through that with us please, tell us precisely, as accurately as possible what Jane told you, firstly when she told you”?
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “Where you were when she told you and then run through as accurately as possible the conversation”?
Reply “Okay, erm basically after Matt and I had checked on G***e, erm Matt went off to search and I went across to Jane’s apartment cos she was there with E**e, erm and just told her that Madeleine had gone missing, erm and I must have known at that point that the window was open and the shutter was up, erm cos basically when I told her that and this was in the courtyard, the sort of, well outside Jane’s apartment in that sort of courtyard-y area between our two apartments, erm Jane looked sort of quite horrified and then said that when she’d walked up to check on E**a and E**e at sort of ten past nine, erm when she’d passed Gerry and Jez who were talking in the street, she’d seen a man carrying a child walking across the top of the road and she said you know at the time, she thought it was a bit odd, erm but sort of didn’t, didn’t really think twice about it because you know the, it was the sort of place where parents carry children around at night because they might have had them in the crèche, erm while they went off to have dinner and then we’d you know pick up the kids and they could well be asleep and be carrying them home to bed, so she said she did think it was a bit odd but you know, obviously with hindsight, of course she’d kind of gone after them but erm, erm and she, so she told me that and we just, you know, our conversation, we were just batting back and forth well you know, surely it couldn’t have been Madeleine, cos Jane said she’d past Gerry and Jez in the street as she was walking up, so she’d literally gone passed Gerry and this man was walking across the top of the road, erm so it was like, well how could it be Madeleine because you know, Gerry would have just you know left the apartment a couple of minutes ago after checking on them, erm and, and then, so but we came to the same conclusion that it was significant and that she’d have to tell, you know, she would tell the Police when they arrived, erm and I think I asked her what he was wear, what this person was wearing, erm and she said he had like a dark jacket on, sort of like a windcheater type thing, erm and sort of brownish coloured trousers, erm and shoes, I mean they weren’t trainers and they weren’t sort of proper shoes, you know but it, they were sort of something, I don’t know, like I don’t know, Hush Puppies, that type of thing, erm and she said that his hair was sort of fairly long, long at the back, erm not long as in, as in length but in sort of volume and we talked about, you know she said it, you know he looked sort of Mediterranean, he, or Portuguese just because you know the Europeans tend to wear their hair sort of you know, longer at the back, whereas you know most British men have it all sort of cut in and short. So she said he, no he didn’t really, that’s why she, I think you know, she thought it was a bit odd because he didn’t really look like a holidaymaker, erm cos most of the people wandering about, erm you know were all wearing shorts or, you could kind of tell they were Brits on holiday, erm so he didn’t really fit that mould and erm, she’d thought, the other thing that had kind of made her suspicious I suppose, was that the child you know wasn’t covered with a blanket or anything like that, was just in pyjamas, you know with bare legs and feet hanging down, erm so the child was being carried like that, you know the sort of head there and body and legs hanging down, erm and you know it was cold at night, I mean you know we all had lots of layers on, erm so she thought that was a bit odd you know, erm that the child just had pyjamas on and nothing else, erm and the person carrying her had a, oh you know had a jacket and, and long trousers, erm, erm so we sort of ummed and arred about that and you know decided that well you know, it just seemed too much of a coincidence that you know it couldn’t be insignificant, erm so you know Jane said she’d tell the Police as soon as they arrived, which she did, erm and erm she didn’t describe the pyjamas to me then, erm it was only really, I think it was the next day or perhaps even the day after that, that Jane, Fiona and I had a conversation about the pyjamas that the child was wearing, erm and Jane had said that they were sort of white with sort of pink flowers or something on and they had a bit of a, like a trim around the bottom, erm and Fiona said she’d asked Kate erm about the pyjamas, you know, what sort of pyjamas Madeleine was wearing, erm and sort of later that day I think you know, Fi came back and said basically Jane had described the pyjamas that Madeleine was wearing, so you know, that absolutely convinced us that this person walking away was carrying Madeleine, erm you know Jane, I mean none of us knew, I mean I suppose I, I might have known what bed clothes, erm what pyjamas E**e and E**a wore but that was only cos quite often they came to read stories in our apartment, or you know if G***e went there, but otherwise you know, we didn’t ever seen any of the other children at bed time, erm you know, I know Jane hadn’t seen the twins or Madeleine at bed time, so she would have no idea what pyjamas, or you know, or what Madeleine wore to bed, whether they were pyjamas or a nightie whatever, so erm, so it was you know sort of like the two, I think it must have been on the Saturday, erm that the pyjamas, Jane described the pyjamas to Fiona and Fiona found out from Kate, erm what Madeleine’s pyjamas were like and they were the same as the ones that Jane had described”.
00.08.19 1578 “But she didn’t describe the pyjamas to yourself on the evening”?
Reply “On the night no, we just talked about the man and what he was wearing, erm and the fact that he was carrying a child that was just in pyjamas, you know with no blanket”.
1578 “What time did you have the conversation with Jane on the, on the evening”?
Reply “On the night, erm I mean it was probably about ten fifteen, twenty past ten, something like that (inaudible)”.
1578 “And where were you”?
Reply “Erm just outside Jane’s apartment in that sort of courtyard-y area, between 5D and 5B”.
1578 “Was there anyone else present”?
Reply “No there was just Jane and I”.
1578 “Do you know if she had told anyone else about that sighting prior to telling you”?
Reply “No she wouldn’t have done because I was, you know I were literally, I went to tell her that Madeleine was missing, she didn’t know up until that point and then she’d said she, you know then that’s when she told me she’d seen this man, or the person and yeah I mean she hadn’t seen anyone out, you know, anyone from our group until that point, but she didn’t actually know Madeleine was missing ‘til I told her then”.
1578 “Okay and you mentioned earlier Rachael that at that point”.
Reply “Mmm”.
1578 “You must have known that the shutter was up and the window was open”?
Reply “Yes”.
00.09.38 1578 “Do you know who told you that”?
Reply “Erm but I mean I remember kind of standing near the window with Kate and Fiona, erm so but I mean I don’t remember the specifics of anyone actually saying to me that, I think it was just sort of a general, Kate and Fi were sort of milling around outside the apartment, outside her and Kate’s apartment and cos I think at, either at that point or perhaps it was later in the night, erm you know Kate had tried to see whether you could lift the shutters from the outside, erm but which you could and they would stay up, erm so I think, I don’t think anyone told me specifically that the windows were open and the shutters were up, it was just erm you know kind of listening to conversations and seeing Kate and Fiona, erm sort of outside the apartment”.
1578 “Did you at any point yourself see the shutters up and the window open”?
Reply “Yes”.
1578 “When was that”?
Reply “When, when Fi and Kate were outside, erm you know standing by the shutters, by the window”.
1578 “When you say by the window, do you mean by the building line, or in the car park”?
Reply “Erm by the building, on that path in front of the, in front of the actual window”.
1578 “And when would that have been”?
Reply “Erm well I think it must have been just before I told Jane that, you know we, Matt checked on G***e and I mean I, I did, I thought we’ll go straight to Jane and you know tell her that Madeleine was missing but if sort of Kate and Fi and you know Dave and Gerry might have come out of the apartment and sort of been standing around there and talking about this, these shutters being up and the window being open, erm and I didn’t, I didn’t have a conversation with anyone, I just heard them talking about it, erm so I think it was you know in that time between sort of you know five past ten and ten fifteen, erm but it wasn’t somebody specifically coming up to me and saying, ‘the windows were open and the shutters were up’.”
1578 “Okay. Did you want to mention something about Doctors in the group”?
Reply “Yeah I was just going to say that, you know Kate and Gerry are both Doctors and you know there were three other medics in the group, erm four others actually sorry, four others, erm you know so if by any chance they’d accidentally done anything to Madeleine or she was ill or erm you know something wasn’t quite right, I mean they wouldn’t have just left her and sort of tried to cover it up as an accident or you know, they would of sort of you know, come and got Matt and Russell and Dave and Fi, erm I mean you know, not just because they are Doctors, because you know they’re parents and you’d kind of go to anyone to see who could help but if you’ve got, you know Doctors as friends who were there as well, erm you know there were kind of six people there who if Madeleine had accidentally been bumped on the head or you know whatever the theories are supposed to be, erm you know, there were plenty of people there who could of you know, tried to revive a child, erm”.
00.13.16 1578 “Okay”.
Reply “You know and Gerry, Gerry and Kate would certainly have done that, erm”.
1578 “In respect of Madeleine herself, are you able to describe her character”?
Reply “Erm I mean she was you know, a very bubbly little girl, erm very cheery, erm very sort of caring, she was very good with er smaller children, erm you know I just remember G***e falling over and sort of Madeleine going to pick her up and help her, erm you know, sort of full of fun, lots of energy, running around, sporty, erm one game that sort of we used to play in the evenings by the recreation area was you know, somebody would pretend to be a monster and they’d all sort of say, ‘chase me, chase me’ and Madeleine was always kind of the one who started that off, erm sort of say, ‘oh let’s play monsters’ and so you know it would be Matt or Dave or Russell sort of running around chasing all the kids, erm”.
1578 “What about her intelligence”?
Reply “Erm a bright little girl I think, erm I mean oh, her, I suppose I don’t know her well enough to, to really comment on that but I mean, she was, you know she was sort of very together and certainly acted her age or sort of you know older than her age, she was very sort of self aware, erm”.
00.14.43 1578 “Do you know if she was aware of stranger danger for example”?
Reply “Yeah I’m sure she would have been, I mean I don’t know personally but erm you know I think”.
1578 “To your knowledge, was she the sort of little girl that would have gone with a stranger”?
Reply “No I don’t, no I don’t think she would have done, no, erm no, I mean, I mean, I don’t, you know I didn’t know Madeleine well enough but I know E**a who was you know a couple of months younger than Madeleine and you know, I mean she would, she wouldn’t go off with a stranger and you know just from sort of all our backgrounds and the way that the children are brought up, erm you know I don’t think Madeleine would either”.
1578 “Okay. Finally would you be available to travel to Portugal to, to take part in a re-enactment of the incidents of Friday the third of May, two thousand and seven, there are two specific periods provisionally quoted, the twenty eighth to the twenty ninth of April or the fifteenth to the sixteenth of May this year”?
Reply “Yeah I mean we could be available but erm you know we’ve expressed our reservations about going to Portugal and about the reasons for doing a re-enactment, you know in a letter to Stuart PRIOR, erm I can’t really see how you know, what the purpose of it would be nearly a year down the line, erm you know there are lots, you know there are the full details about our movements that night and what happened and you know, there’s the time line that we prepared when we were out there which we thought was gonna be helpful for the PJ, erm and you know obviously since then there are all our statements and I know times might be slightly out and you know, but not, I don’t, can’t imagine they’d be sort of materially out, erm you know to make a huge difference, erm so I don’t really see one why it needs to be done at all and two why it has to be us, erm I mean you know, asking us as a group to go back and do that when it was, you know it was such a, an horrific event and certainly you know to be sitting around that table again and sort of pretending to go back and check the rooms and it would be, it would just be awful and you know, I mean much more difficult you know for Kate and, and Jane, erm you know than me anyway, erm don’t see why they can’t do it with actors”.
1578 “Okay”.
Reply “Erm and I can’t really see what the material benefit to finding Madeleine would be doing that re-enactment”.
1578 “Fine. Can I just ask you please, on the, the rough notes that you made”.
Reply “Mmm”.
1578 “On the previous interview, would you kindly write on there your next exhibit reference, which is RMJM103. Okay I think it just remains for me on behalf of the Portuguese Authorities to sincerely thank you for your time and efforts today”.
Reply “That’s okay”.
00.18.36 1578 “Thank you. The time is four thirty one pm and this interview is ceasing”.

Russell O'Brien
On this evening I was wearing’, yeah, they’re, erm, I don’t know you’d describe them, they’re kind of, they’re not, they’re not quite jeans, but, yeah, they’re a kind of a mix, I’d say sort of a mix of material, ‘and a stripy shirt’, it’s not a ‘top’, it was a ‘shirt’, it was similar to the one I’ve got on here”.
1578 “’A pale striped shirt’ shall we call that?”
Reply “Yeah, erm, ‘greens and browns’”.
1578 “Okay”.
Reply “Erm, ‘Jane had taken my jumper which was blue’, yeah, a sort of smock style jumper I’ll describe it as and she had that on at some point”.
1578 “’A smock jumper’?”
Reply “Yeah, one of these ones that, you know, that have a, a relatively, a naval kind of feel to the collar, it’s a weird, sort of a weird fish”.
1578 “Are you happy with ‘smock type jumper’?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah. Phew, ‘I’m quite used the cold’, I don’t know whether I’m quite used to the cold, maybe ‘I tend not to feel the cold’, ha ha”.
1578 “Okay. ‘I tend not to”.


’When Kate raised the alarm she’”.
00.02.26 1578 “’When Kate raised the alarm’?”
Reply “Erm, she didn’t get to the table, I think, ‘It was all enclosed’, I don’t know what that means, it could be just deleted really”.
1578 “So ‘It was all enclosed’ to be deleted?”
Reply “Yeah, and it just says ‘She was at the start of the path when she shouted across to us’, which is fine. Erm, it’s fine then down to ‘and possibly Gerry’. I think maybe just to clarify what ‘the cul-de-sac area’ means, that’s actually the passageway and gardens in front of the apartment blocks”.
1578 “’We searched the cul-de-sac area’?”
Reply “Erm, which is actually the passageway, I think, erm, when I said ‘cul-de-sac’, erm, I was referring to the fact that, although we’d never been along it in that direction, you can’t get out at the other side of the complex from the passageway that separates the pool from patio sides of the apartments. But we searched down there and we done the adjacent gardens”.
1578 “So we need to describe ‘the cul-de-sac area’ as?”
Reply “As the ‘passage’, well there, there was, erm, ‘the passageway’. Erm, and then the last bit says ‘Shopping Centre and tennis courts’ there, that was actually on the, the sort of second wave of searching that I did. Erm, so after we searched immediately around the, the complex, erm, and we hadn’t found her, I then went, I think around the back, or the front really, where the car park and the apartments are, to the main road, dropping down into the, into the town centre, erm, I forget the name of it, and went down round the back of the tennis courts, looking in there, round the back of the Baptista Supermarket where there’s a car park area and a bit of derelict ground, erm, and then into the Shopping Centre, which is the bottom two or three floors of a of a relatively large building just down the hill. Erm, so that is a separate, erm, sort of search, after coming back to the foot of the apartment and clarifying that, that Madeleine hadn’t been found in the immediate vicinity”.
00.04.52 1578 “So after coming back to the foot of the apartment?”
Reply “Yeah, we then went on separate searches further from the apartment and mine involved the front, and by that, I mean the car park side of the apartment and then down the hill towards the town centre, erm, and along there looking through fences, into the complex and the tennis courts, the back of the Supermarket and the derelict ground adjacent to that and the shopping, the lower echelons of this building which is a small, a small precinct”.
1578 “Sorry, back of the tennis courts?”
Reply “Uh hu”.
1578 “Back of?”
Reply “The back of the Supermarket and then into the, the small, slightly old, erm, Shopping Centre, which goes over one or two floors”.
1578 “Yeah”.
Reply “Erm, it’s actually the day I met, ‘On the way back from the Shopping Centre’, in the next paragraph, I met Dave and he was running down the hill with a, with, you know, sort of panic in his eyes, saying ‘This is really bad, this is bad, they haven’t found her’. There was obviously, a number of minutes had passed by this point, while we were looking individually”.
1578 “So ‘I met Dave on the return’?”
Reply “On the return”.
1578 “’On my return’?”
Reply “Heading back towards the, the, erm, the Super, well near the Baptista Supermarket, just down from there, erm, met Dave and it was him that said to me ‘This is bad. This is really bad. They haven’t found her. She’s missing’”.
1578 “And he said?”
Reply “Yeah, ‘This is really’, you know, He said ‘This is really bad, they haven’t found her’’”.
00.07.16 1578 “’This is bad, this is really bad, they’ve not found her’?”
Reply “Yeah, or, you know, sort of words very similar to that. The, erm, the next bit is, erm, sort of correct but relatively brief compared to what we discussed yesterday. Erm, it said, erm, there was then Dave, Matt and myself shortly after this point swept down the hill towards the beach”.
1578 “So ‘we’ needs to be changed with ‘Dave, Matt and?”
Reply “’Dave, Matt and myself’, yeah”.
1578 “’Searched down towards the beach area towards the Ocean Club’?”
Reply “Erm, well it’s, yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s sort of later, no, it’s a bit misleading really. Erm, we actually dropped down, almost directly, as the roads would take you to the beach”.
1578 “So ‘We searched down towards the beach area’?”
Reply “Yeah, you can remove ‘towards the Ocean Club’”.
1578 “And we can remove ‘towards the Ocean Club’?”
Reply “And the addition there was what we described, that Matt searched the, the beach immediately in front of where we came down at, which would be the sort of west, yeah, the western end of the beach, as far as, erm, Matt and Dave came into, erm, the area in between, and I went over towards the eastern part of the beach, erm, predominantly walking down the, the beachfront away from”.
1578 “Sorry, just repeat that again for me please. Matt searched?”
Reply “Matt searched, yeah, well, what would be the sort of west, he, where, where we came out we were sort of the west end of the, the beach anyway and he stayed and searched the rocks and the, the surrounding immediately there”.
1578 “’Matt searched west end of beach’?”
Reply “Yeah, Dave took a sort of central portion of it and I went right over towards the sort of the, the main sandy area of the beach, erm”.
00.09.22 1578 “’And I went over to’?”
Reply “Sort of on the west, well the eastern part of the beach”.
1578 “’Main sandy part of beach’?”
Reply “Yeah, and dropped down to the waterline because it was quite easy to see back towards the town, because it was, there was street lighting, erm, but you couldn’t, certainly from further in, you couldn’t see if, you couldn’t see the beachfront terribly well. And there was quite a lot of beach in that direction, so I went a certain amount, I didn’t, I didn’t go all the way over to, erm, I think it’s called Black Rock, but I got to a certain point and thought, you know, it’s actually, you know, well away from the beach (inaudible), turned back and, erm, on the return journey, this was when I bumped into, erm, somebody who, who, who was already aware that someone was missing. I think, I don’t, I don’t remember her necessarily being, erm, definitely somebody I recognised form MARK WARNER, but she was an English woman in her, in her early or mid-twenties, fair or blonde’ish sort of hair, erm, I’d asked her if she’d seen, erm, you know, a little girl wandering around and, you know, I can’t remember what she said, but she was already aware that somebody was missing, so clearly she’d either bumped into Dave or somebody else searching around higher up in the town. Erm, and then, before we kind of rejoin here, I sort, I sort of zigzagged back up through some of the roads, such that you, I would have covered a sort of triangle, from the apartment down to the beach, along the beach a little bit, and then, and then sort of heading back up to the starting point, over, over a number of minutes, I mean, it was certainly not every road or every garden, but, you know, just, as I headed back I tried to take in a number of, a number of roads and entrances just to see if there was anything there. And during the course of this I’d spoken to a few people, there weren’t, there weren’t masses of people around actually and, erm, you know, a couple of holidaymakers and I can, I can remember speaking to some relatively elderly, erm, Portuguese people who were just walking along near the front at one point, but, erm, and the only other person I spoke to was, I presume, a Bar owner in that, in the Shopping Centre, and there was just one other, erm, elderly Portuguese man in there having a drink, erm, and they just sort of shrugged and, so. Those are the kind of people that we discussed the other day who I met during that search. Erm, and then, then it picks up back here really, where it says ‘We went back to five ‘A’, it was clear that panic was setting in on Gerry’ and certainly, certainly this was my first, erm, experience of, of, erm, of the anguish that Gerry was in, you know”.
00.12.20 1578 “Yes”.
Reply “So, I don’t know whether this, at this point here was where Gerry was on the phone, I, I had spoken to him at some point about what he was like on, on the patio, and he feels that this may have been a little bit later on, but, you know, it was around, it was around, erm, it was around here, erm, we certainly went back, erm, and whether this was immediately after I returned or perhaps a little bit later on, I’m not sure. But the rest of this is, is absolutely correct, ‘He was speaking to somebody, a member of his family’. And, you know, Gerry is, you know, a very determined, a very, a very strong guy, he doesn’t get flustered easily, he doesn’t, erm, he shrugs off the minor nuisances of life with consummate ease and he was just, as described here, erm, you know, just ‘like a’, ‘like a’, ‘like a sobbing child, absolutely hysterical’ and I just, erm, you know, stood, stood there pretty useless really, erm, you know, none of us knew, none of us knew what to say, so that is correct. Erm, I think around this, huh, I think as I said yesterday, in terms of the recollection, and certainly at this point I had gone back to, to my flat or to the doors of five ‘D’. I think I may well have actually gone back, erm, to speak to Jane briefly in between, erm, the, the searches as well, so I’m not, as you can imagine, it’s a little bit of a blur in what order some of this happened”.
1578 “Okay”.
Reply “But the detail here about when I went back to Jane is certainly true in terms of content, whether it occurred at the point we’re writing here or whether it occurred in between one of the other searches, I’m not sure, but”.
00.14.06 1578 “Right”.
Reply “Erm, and some of it’s obviously a bit of a rant as well rather than the detail, but, erm, ‘Went round to Jane’. Certainly she has been made, over the months, by what’s written in the papers, to, you know, to be extremely hurt and frustrated. She’s been, you know, she’s been called, at best, my wording here was that ‘She’s been described’, ‘She’d been described, at best, a sympathetic witness and, at worst, a fantasist and a liar’, erm, and she, she certainly feels that the PJ”.
1578 “So do you want something introducing there?”
Reply “Well I think Jane’s been made to feel, I mean, this is obviously content rather than, rather than chron, erm, rather than chronology. But ‘She’s been made to feel very’, ‘She has felt very frustrated and has been described, at best, a sympathetic witness’”.
1578 “So ‘Jane has’?”
Reply “’Has been frustrated’, ‘Has been very frustrated’”.
1578 “’Has been frustrated’?”
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “’Made to feel’ needs to come out doesn’t it?”
Reply “Yeah, take that out, yeah, ‘Has been very frustrated and has been described’”.
1578 “’Jane has been very frustrated’”.
Reply “’Has been described in’, ‘in the Press’, at least, ‘as, at best, a sympathetic witness and, at worst, a fantasist and a liar’, I think was the quote. Erm, and this has been repeated over and over again, including yesterday for the last nine months”.
1578 “Sorry, ‘At best as’?”
Reply “’At best, as a sympathetic witness’. I mean, I, I’d never heard this term, but the implication being that she had come up with an adequate explanation for the situation, you know, in, in some misguided way of, of, erm, of, erm, of, of getting Kate and Gerry some answer. ‘And, at worst’”.
00.15.58 1578 “’At best, a sympathetic witness and, at worst’?”
Reply “’A fantasist or a liar’. Erm, and, yeah, ‘Jane, she was with Rachael’, erm, ‘and possibly Fiona’, I don’t remember that too well, but she was standing in the doorway of five ‘D’. Erm, and she said, I just, I hadn’t heard this up to this point and she was saying ‘Oh if I knew there was something’ or ‘I knew it was strange’ and, you know, then she just said I think ‘I saw someone carrying a child’, that’s fine, I think they’re the kind of words that she used. But I think the next bit is a bit ambiguous, what I actually said the other day was, erm, I think, huh, in her mind there was no doubt that, that, that, you know, when she heard the news that, erm, that Madeleine was missing, that what she saw, you know, forty minutes earlier or so, was absolutely, erm, that the two were, were definitely related, you know, it was a, this was an instantaneous reaction. Erm, by what you’ve got here ‘She played it down’, I think, well, what, I think she was, she almost didn’t want to believe herself over the, over the next couple of hours and she’s been concerned that on the night, the PJ who arrived later on in the night, that she, that she kind of sort of tried to, you know, almost, almost say the opposite, she’s not clear, you know, she’s, I mean, she will have said this in her statement anyway, but she didn’t play it down to me, erm, you know, I think, erm”.
1578 “So ‘She played it down’ needs to come out?”
Reply “Yeah, it needs to come out or, or, or, in the sense that, she was worried, but at a much later stage she’s, she’s kind of thought, you know, ‘Did they not take me seriously on the night and did I play it down’, she is concerned that she may have played it down, but it doesn’t stand there. And where it says ‘She was very calm, composed and adamant’, I think this is a sort of fusion of me saying that Jane is naturally a very calm and pragmatic person, you know, she doesn’t, erm, she’s not distractible and doesn’t fall prey to hysterical outbursts, erm, you know, if there’s a problem she just shrugs her shoulders and gets on with it, erm, you know, no noise, no fuss, and that’s her character. So her character is like that, so I think ‘Jane was calm and composed’ needs to be replaced with ‘Jane’s character is’, ‘is’, ‘is not’, ‘is not one of a hysterical nature’, erm”.
00.19.38 1578 “Okay. ‘Jane’s character’?”
Reply “’And despite being upset she was adamant that what she had saw was important’”.
1578 “Right. So just run that by me again please, so ‘Jane’s character’”.
Reply “So, you know, ‘She played it down’ can just go, that’s not really relevant”.
1578 “Yes”.
Reply “’Jane’s character is’, ‘is’, ‘is calm and collected and she is not prone to hysteria’. And I think then ‘Despite being upset, she was adamant that she had seen this man’ or ‘this person and felt that the two were related, that Madeleine’s disappearance and her mild’, kind of, ‘unease at seeing this person were related’”.
1578 “Okay. ‘She was adamant that she had seen this man’?”
Reply “And that it was, and that ‘There was a good chance that she may have witnessed Madeleine’s abduction’. So, I mean, it’s, it’s sort of there, but I think I was talking about Jane’s character when I was talking about ‘calm and composed’ and she certainly wasn’t entirely calm and composed when I saw her. Erm, okay, I know that ‘Kate and Gerry were not involved at all’. ‘I saw Jane, she was shaking’, erm, I think it’s a bit rambling. Erm, I mean, it wasn’t so much then, I mean, Jane had already had this realisation, erm, that, you know, so it may be better just to say that ‘She had had a terrible realisation that she may have seen Madeleine being taken away’, so rather than, it wasn’t then, and by the time I saw her she’d already, she’d already, you know, this was instantaneous”.
1578 “So the words ‘It was then’ need to be removed?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, ‘It was then we’, it was really ‘She had had’”.
1578 “And the word ‘we’ needs to be replaced by?”
Reply “Removed. ‘She had’, I think. So ‘It was then we’ is replaced by ‘She had had a terrible realisation that she may have seen Madeleine being taken away’”.
00.20.39 1578 “Yeah”.
Reply “Obviously the next couple of lines are just me waffling on, but, huh, but the content’s fine. I’d certainly never seen Jane like, like it before, you know, she was, erm, completely, completely, erm, I mean, she was absolutely certain. Erm, and I suppose, just ‘Nothing to gain by giving false evidence or creating false leads’ rather than just ‘false evidence’, ‘false leads’, ‘false evidence or and creating’”.
1578 “’We as a group have nothing to gain’?”
Reply “’By giving false evidence or creating false leads’”.
1578 “So ‘or creating’ needs to go in there”.
Reply “Erm, the next page, I’ll just read a section of it”.
1578 “Okay”.
Reply “Yeah, okay, the next page. Erm, it starts off, I presume these are the individual questions from the, from the, erm, the PJ and we’ve covered some and, I suppose, if we’ve got to go through these again, I can just, erm, whiz through. ‘Asked who I spoke to’, erm, ‘It was people in the Bar in the Shopping Centre’”.
1578 “’People in the Bar’?”
Reply “But that was, erm, if I sort of clarify, that was presumably the owner and a man, an old man in the Bar in the Shopping Centre. Erm, you know, I’d say ‘Some older Portuguese people near the front’. And it says ‘a female member of staff from MARK WARNER’, I didn’t recognise, I didn’t know her at the time, she may well have been a MARK WARNER staff”.
1578 “Okay. ‘Older groups of people near the front’?”
Reply “’Near the front’. As I say, there weren’t many, there was surprisingly few people around. ‘A female member of staff possibly from MARK WARNER’ might be better, because I have to say, I didn’t recognise, I didn’t know, I don’t think I recognised her before that point”.
1578 “’And a female member of staff possibly from MARK WARNER’?”
Reply “Yeah, she was certainly, yeah, she was, she was English, you know, clearly not a, not a local. Erm, next it says ‘We tried to find a picture of Madeleine’, I mean, it wasn’t so much struggling to get the picture, it was struggling to find the means of printing it. We had the cam, we had Kate’s camera, erm, the, what we were trying to do is find a picture that actually gave a good likeness, rather than just being any old shot it actually had, you know, a close-up of her, of her face. There were a lot of pictures on the camera but they were, you know, just at home and on, you know, in profile and things like that”.
00.26.25 1578 “Yes”.
Reply “So we had, we”.
1578 “So to the words ‘we were struggling’, ‘but we were struggling’ need to be removed?”
Reply “Erm, yeah, ‘we tried to find’, I think, it’s fairly irrelevant, I think, you know”.
1578 “So?”
Reply “’We were trying to find a picture but we’, you know, delete ‘but we were struggling’. ‘Kate checked the camera’. Erm, I don’t actually remember saying that Jane had taken the picture of Madeleine at the tennis lesson, in any case, it wasn’t that day it was the day before that Madeleine and E**a were in the group, erm, on a different day doing the tennis. I think, you know, it’s fairly, I think it’s fairly irrelevant anyway, I don’t think Jane did have a picture from the tennis lesson. So I think that that could all go, I think that ‘Jane had taken a picture of Madeleine at the tennis lesson that day’ could all go NOTE: Madeleine's tennis group played on Tuesday and there is refernce to a picture taken by Jane Tanner of Madeleine with a racquet..not the tennis balls pic)  and then put, the main thing here was, erm, ‘We were searching for a printer and Kat, one of the Nannies, said she had a printer’. I’m pretty sure it was Kat. So this paragraph’s quite”.
1578 “So we keep in ‘We couldn’t print it off’?”
Reply “’We needed to print it off’ that, that was the sticking issue, we had pictures but we needed to get in somewhere to print them and I think people had asked at, at, at the reception down at Ocean Club”.
00.27.48 1578 “So the pictures of Madeleine?”
Reply “On a digital camera”.
1578 “That were printed off?”
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “Came from Kate’s camera”.
Reply “From Kate’s camera as far as I can remember, yeah. And the main issue was trying to find somewhere to print it”.
1578 “What about if we say ‘Kate checked her camera and found some pictures’?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, or ‘Kate’s camera was checked’, I don’t think Kate was in no, in no state whatsoever to check her camera”.
1578 “Okay. So ‘We tried to find a picture of Madeleine’?”
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “’Kate’s camera was checked’?”
Reply “Umm, ‘And Kat or one of the other Nannies went to their flat to retrieve a printer or something that would connect to a printer and then the pictures were printed in the office off the small reception portal’, there’s a little office in there”.
1578 “Okay. But ‘Kate or one of the Nannies’?”
Reply “Yeah, ‘Kat or one of the Nannies’, I mean, Kat was there and Leanne was there, but whether it was actually their printer or lead, I’m not sure. The rest of that paragraph, erm, is fine. Erm, I think Gerry, it was actually Rachael, where it says ‘I’m not sure who informed the Authorities or media about Madeleine’s disappearance’, it says ‘It may have been Gerry’, erm, oh I beg your pardon, it’s the Authorities there, it says ‘Authorities or media’. I think, erm, Gerry and Matt, erm, were the people who, who actually tried to get the Ocean Club to phone the Police but it wasn’t the media, so maybe delete, if you delete ‘or media’, because the person on the media, I think that was, I think that was Rachael”.
00.30.07 1578 “So we need to delete ‘or media’?”
Reply “Yeah, I think it was Gerry or Matt, one or both, who, who raise, who actually raised the alarm with the Police, I think”.
1578 “’It may have been Gerry or Matt’?”
Reply “Yeah, I can just, you know. Erm, the rest of that sentence is fine. I think it’s ‘I loathe the media’ comma, just to make it, just to read. Erm, ‘A very low opinion of them’, full-stop. ‘David also’, ‘David was also keen to make use of the media and I think he may have conducted’, conducted, ‘may have sent an email but I’m not sure’, I think he was looking to do it but I don’t think, erm, I don’t think that actually happened”.
1578 “Would you say ‘I’m not sure whether that was actually sent’?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, that’s fine. Searches well we’ve got more details where we’ve said it again (inaudible), I think that’s fine. ‘Leaving doors and windows open’, ‘We didn’t leave doors and windows open. We did sit outside Saturday on the patio, we wouldn’t have left it open once inside’, I don’t know what that means, I think we were saying that occasionally we would sit outside but we didn’t go away from the flat with the patio open. I’m not quite, I don’t recall the”.
1578 “I think the question was something like ‘Had you left doors and windows open during the holiday’?”
Reply “Yeah, and, and”.
1578 “And the reply is ‘We didn’t leave doors/windows open’”.
Reply “’And occasionally’, say, ‘we would sit outside on the patio’, but I don’t know about Saturday. I think it’s actually ‘We would sit outside on the patio’ so you can cross Saturday off ‘but we wouldn’t have left it open once away from the apartment’”.
1578 “Okay”.
Reply “So maybe ‘inside’ is just ‘once away’”.
1578 “I’m sorry, ‘inside’?”
Reply “It says ‘We did sit outside Saturday’, cross it off because obviously it wasn’t just Saturday we sat outside, ‘but we wouldn’t have left it open once away’”.
00.32.30 1578 “So ‘Saturday’ is deleted?”
Reply “And ‘away’ replaces ‘inside’”.
1578 “’And we wouldn’t have left it open once away’?”
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “So we delete ‘inside’?”
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “And we add ‘away’?”
Reply “Umm, and then, erm, ‘Checks on children and how often’, I think that’s, that’s clear enough. Erm, ‘Mobile phone number’, erm, I think that’s, erm, ‘ PHONE NUMBER REMOVED’, that’s all fine. ‘Landline number’, erm, yeah, I don’t know whether I made the call or they rang me again, but, yes, it was just an update on what was going on. Erm, ‘(inaudible) Anthony NICHOLLS’, erm, I wonder whether you brought that one up, because he was in France at the time, I don’t know whether it’s worth saying he was there, he was away, perhaps a short one, but that’s fine. Erm, it says ‘Only met them after they flew in following Madeleine’s disappearance’, erm, ‘had not previously met’, I had, I had met them at Madeleine’s birthday, but they hadn’t, I hadn’t been in contact with them prior to their arrival, so I didn’t speak to them on the phone, erm, either between Madeleine’s birthday the year before and them arriving, so I had no contact with them in that time”.
1578 “’I wish to clarify that he had not previously met’”.
Reply “Well I had, I had previously met them, as I said, but”.
1578 “So we could delete the word ‘not’ couldn’t we?”
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “’I wish to clarify that’”.
Reply “’Had previously met Sue and Brian HEALY at Madeleine’s birthday but only met them after they flew in’, erm, ‘only met them again after they flew in following Madeleine’s disappearance’. I hadn’t seen them for, you know, erm, the best part of a year and I think that was the only occasion that we’d, we’d met. I’m not quite sure what the last paragraph, it says, erm, ‘Route back from table, shutters, didn’t look at them’, it doesn’t really make a great deal of sense, this is just our description of how I walked back, erm, you asked me if I noticed anything suspicious or untoward and I said no to that, erm, I’m not quite sure, ‘I felt that it was a loaded question’, I don’t recall because I don’t remember what we were discussing there. But, no, it doesn’t really read very well but there’s nothing, I don’t know if ‘felt that it was a loaded question’ was something I said or whether it’s something that’s just got jotted down. It doesn’t seem to be relevant but I don’t know if it’s just worth just deleting ‘I felt that it was a loaded question’”.
00.36.03 1578 “Okay”.
Reply “And the rest of it’s, you know, in shorthand but accurate. Yeah, I’ll go just down to there because it changes there. Erm, just to clarify that you made the timeline, I’ve written it, it’s fine, all of that, I think that’s fine, the times are quite vague and I’m not sure really but they’ll do. I don’t know why it says ‘Control Risk’ in?”
1578 “That’s the company”.
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “I think that submitted, is this the company investigating on behalf of Gerry and Kate?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, but the time, the timeline was done by us and us alone, the one that you got out yesterday”.
1578 “Okay. So ‘Control Risk’ needs to come out?”
Reply “Yeah, so I don’t know whether we gave, we probably gave them a copy as well, although I don’t remember specifically, but, you know, Gerry, Gerry had a copy of the file just as, as we did, but Control Risk, I don’t think were even, were even there at that point”.
00.38.19 1578 “Okay”.
Reply “Erm, and so that was a timeline that was made purely by the nine of us, erm, and, yeah, so Control Risk, certainly Control Risk had no part of it. Erm, it says it ‘Was written the first weekend after Madeleine’s disappearance’, ‘After the first weekend’, so I don’t think we did it on the Saturday or the Sunday, I think it was probably”.
1578 “So ‘Was written’?”
Reply “’After the first weekend after Madeleine’s disappearance’, so I’m not entirely sure of, of which day we started, which day we completed on, but it certainly, well I don’t think it was as early as the Saturday or the Sunday, I think I said on, the other day that it was probably the sort of Monday or Tuesday of the next week, but I’m not entirely sure, but as I say, it wasn’t the Saturday or the Sunday, it wasn’t that quick. Erm, and then up until ‘comments’, everything else I think is, erm, is fine. Erm, it’s rather brief in terms of what I’ve written about, erm, Robert MURAT and then there’s a whole, my whole third statement is, is solely about our meetings, erm, so there, there is a vast amount of information that, that isn’t there, but obviously in my third statement is, is a sort of testimony for that. I think what I’ve written here really is that, erm, we gave that statement, erm, within a few days of him being made aguido, certainly before, erm, any details of, of his movements, according to his statement, had been, had been leaked or had come out into the open. Erm, we certainly, the three, you know, the three of us, all immediately thought, when we saw him on the television, that we recognised him and that he was there on the night and the statements that were given were given relatively soon after the event and at the time I had absolutely no doubt that that was, that those were accurate. The reason I brought this back up here is because I cannot see what he stood to gain by not, by not being, well by saying he wasn’t there on the night when there was the potential for so many people to have seen him. Erm, and it’s been a bit difficult, kind of, erm, you know, he was trying to knock a square peg into a round hole here, because I certainly had a great deal of faith in what I said at the time, you know, there was no, I didn’t have any doubts, was it the evening, sorry, was it the night, was it the next morning, but with him denying it, with no further evidence coming out, with no questions in here whatsoever that kind of led, that would, that sort of said, you know, ‘What about Robert MURAT’, I can only speculate that there’s, that there is no further evidence, erm, that kind will push, will push the case further on him. Erm, and then I also got the information from the likes of Charlotte PENNINGTON and, and, erm, at least earlier on, Sylvia, erm, well sort of the Housekeeper, and Press reports saying that other people also placed him there on the night, that kind of made me think, well this is, that I, you know, that I am correct”.
00.41.47 1578 “So is there anything that you would like to add to that paragraph?”
Reply “Well only that it’s, it’s out, out of the context of what I’ve just been saying again there”.
1578 “Is there anything you would like to add to improve?”
Reply “I think at the end ‘that he would have an alibi’, erm, ‘Although’, ‘Although convinced of the accuracy of our statements at the time of’, erm, ‘of giving’”.
1578 “Okay. ‘Although convinced’?”
Reply “’Convinced of the accuracy of our statements at the time of giving’”.
1578 “Yeah?”
Reply “’And further backed up by the testimony of Fiona, Rachael’ and potentially a number of other people if you believe the Press”.
1578 “’And further backed up’?”
Reply “’By the testimony of Rachael, Fiona and other people’. It not going to make sense this, after this, is it, it’s one of these long O'BRIEN sentences that don’t really end, erm”.
1578 “’Backed up by the testimony of Rachael, Fiona and others’ did you say?”
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “Yeah?”
Reply “’I cannot understand why Robert MURAT would deny being there and I do not wish to change my statement but have’”.
00.43.38 1578 “Which statement?”
Reply “Well ‘I do not wish to change’, you know, the”.
1578 “’My original statement’?”
Reply “’The original kind of statement’”.
1578 “Yes?”
Reply “’But have’, you know, ‘the niggle that unintentionally we have’, ‘that we have got a time wrong and that it was in the morning’”.
1578 “’A niggle that unintentionally’?”
Reply “You know, ‘I may’, ‘I may have the time wrong’. Erm, let you write that”.
1578 “Yes?”
Reply “Erm, can I just see how that. Erm, ‘However Rachael and Fiona report they only saw him once and it was on the night’”.
1578 “Sorry, ‘However’?”
Reply “’However Rachael and Fiona said they’, you know, ‘they firmly place him there on the night’”.
00.44.44 4064 “(DC HOLLIDAY enters the interview room). Can I borrow you a minute?”
1578 “Yes”.
00.44.57 DC GIERC leaves the interview room.
00.45.58 DC GIERC re-enters the interview room.
00.46.04 1578 “Okay”.
Reply “Should have just started from the start of the morning, ha ha”.
1578 “I have just had some clarification that in respect of Robert MURAT”.
Reply “Uh hu”.
00.46.13 1578 “You will be given the opportunity in a short time to expand on”.
Reply “To go over on film like we did the other day?”


 you asked the other day whether I specifically recall Kate getting up to leave, erm, I can’t picture her, her going, but obviously at some point she, she was the, the only person I think to, to go back to the room sort of after my return to the, the table, I think. Erm, the, and the only real point of reference that we can, that I can remember now is that, is that somebody did ask what time it was at some point, probably while Kate was away, and Rachael, erm, sort of said that it was around the ten o’clock mark, so I think, you know, although we have to be a little bit, you know, there’s a bit of, erm, a bit of a guesstimate going on, on sort of the other times, there as certainly a time check that was announced, you know, around the ten o’clock mark. Erm, my food had arrived, well my food had arrived I think by this point. And, and then Kate, erm, erm, returned, erm, obviously Jane wasn’t there but the rest of us were still there, and she came through and, you know, into the portal, I didn’t see her arrive, but the first thing really we recall then is, erm, is, is Kate shouting across from the, from the reception area and perhaps she didn’t come particularly close, I don’t recall. Erm, and as we discussed the, on the initial recording, erm, if I’m honest, I don’t recall her absolute words, only really the meaning that, erm, you know, that, that Madeleine, that Madeleine had gone. Erm, and so, you know, at this point, you know, she, we all just got up and, erm, erm, and, and left with the exception of Dianne who, who I think stayed, who stayed at the chair. We then got up to the foot of the, of the apartment and, erm, you know, clearly, you know, a state of, you know, growing, growing panic. Erm, some people went directly into the flat initially, erm, included, including Gerry and, and Kate, others just stayed at the, at the, at the gate, erm, on the road leading down beside the apartment. Erm, and you know it was, it was absolute, you know, bedlam, there was panic and, you know, I’m not, the, the order of how things were decided and what, and what we did is, is just a complete blur at this point, but, you know, nonetheless, I think people came back out and then, you know, she’s, she’s certainly not there. And I recall, certainly me, erm, erm, Dave, Matt and I think initially at least Gerry, just said ‘Look, let’s just’, erm, ‘let’s just split up and find’, erm, you know, ‘see if we can find her, see if she’s just wandered out’. So everyone did a little bit of a search just in the, in the immediate area and I went along the passageway which was in front of the patio, the patio entrances of, of the apartments, erm, round, all the way along that initially, I think, and unbeknown to me at this point, because we hadn’t really used this entrance a great deal, certainly not walked to the other end of it, it was actually a dead-end, so I then had a look in the, in the front gardens of, of the apartments on the ground floor that you could see, searched a little bit just in between the two apartments and obviously this was a fairly brief search and rapidly doubled back and, erm, you know, the, other people had just came back from the immediate vicinity as well and it was established obviously that no-one had, had found her. I’m not entirely sure whether I went round to quickly see Jane at this point or whether it was after my next, erm, my next search, but while I’m talking about the searches I’ll just say that. I think then we decided that we just needed to look a little bit further afield, erm, and I went round the, the front of the apartments, the high side of the apartments, had a look along there, erm, got to the, what I’m calling the main road that drops in from, erm, from the, from the motor, from the dual carriageway outside of town, and then looked, you know, down, you know, looked down the hill there, erm, towards the, the, erm, the western side of the tennis courts, erm, really looking, you know, either side of the road just to see if she was sort of wandering there, erm, and you could hear kind of ‘Madeleine’ being shouted pretty much everywhere around at this point. Erm, that, the next, after I kind of moved down a bit to the left, there was the Supermarket quite some distance away, but there’s a, there’s a, there’s a road and I think it had a car park or a, well certainly a car park but there was an area of sort of rough that you could probably, you know, it’s not tarmaced or anything, had a look around there, couldn’t see her. And then there’s, erm, there was an entrance into, erm, the building kind of opposite this, which is, is, which is like a Shopping Centre, erm, or at least the lower floors seemed to have a kind of a set of like a Curry House and a Bar and a few things and a swimming pool as well, and, huh, I can’t remember the layout in there very much, but I remember it being kind of split on, on at least sort of two levels, lots of little recesses around kind of, I think kind of shop windows and stuff. So I didn’t really know where I was going, I’d never been in it before, but, nonetheless, sort of wandered around the lower floor and didn’t find anything. I went up on, on, I think on the next floor up, as I came off the stairs and came round there was a, a small Coffee Bar or a Bar on the left and looked in there and asked, there was a, there was a, a man and a, erm, erm, presumably a barman in there, just, there was only a couple of people, and said, you know, ‘Have you seen a little girl’ and, I mean, I don’t know how much English they spoke, but they seemed to, they just sort of shrugged and said no. So then just around that area. And then, and then found my way out of the, the Shopping Centre and actually came out at the other end from where, well a different entrance, I didn’t come out the same way I don’t think, erm, and, erm, it was actually on the road that comes down in front of the Baptista Supermarket. I don’t know whether I searched a little bit more around there, but not long thereafter I met Dave coming down the road in front of the Supermarket, erm, just looking terrible, just pale, erm, you know, sort of, you know, sort of fear in his eyes, saying, you know, ‘This is’, erm, ‘This is really bad. This is bad’, you know, ‘No-one’s found her. No-one’s found her’. Erm, and I don’t know what happened at this point particularly, erm, whether we went around there, but at some point or other me, Matt and Dave found ourselves either back at the flat or, or, or, together somewhere nearby and decided that we would, erm, head down to the beach, I think that was just ‘a’, you know, you think ‘Oh there’s water down there it’s dangerous if she’s got that far’ and ‘b’ just, it was, it was desperation and gravity takes, you know, would take you that way. So the three of us swept down through a number of roads, erm, and then came out down at the, you know, down on the beachfront and I think by this point we thought it, you know, it was fairly futile searching as a three so we split up and took sections of the beach and, as I’ve described before, I think Matt looked immediately around where we had come out on the beach, me and Dave kind of headed along towards where the majority of the beach was in the other direction and Dave started searching on that part of the beach and I got myself almost over to where this Café Paradiso or Restaurant Paradiso is, along the boardwalks and out to the, to the water edge, erm, and I found there that you could, if looking back, you, it wasn’t perfect, but you could see a fair amount of the beach and as well, and also be able to look at the waterline as well. Erm, went along there for a bit towards Black Rock, erm, and then, and then at some point decided to turn, to turn back, I mean, I thought, I think it felt rather unlikely that, that Madeleine was going to have walked the distance that I was starting to go, I think, you know, there’s no, there’s no reason why she would have necessarily left the kind of the beach area and gone down there. So I didn’t go all the way, turned back, as I came back, erm, you now, I bumped into the, the woman I described before, early twenties, fair hair, given the light, English, possibly a MARK WARNER employee, although I don’t, I don’t remember, I don’t know whether I’d seen her before, erm, or since, but she was certainly, you know, either, erm, tut, someone who worked out there because she wasn’t Portuguese, she seemed to be already aware that, that somebody was missing, either through bumping into Dave or, you know, having been higher up in the town recently. Erm, and then did a, a, a comb through various streets, erm, not with any great, erm, plan but just to try and cover some area on the way back up to the, the apartments. And then obviously got back up to the apartments and it was clear that, you know, the, erm, you know, that things were still, you know, very, very dire and no-one had found her. I mean, right up until this point I, I thought some, you know, I did honestly think that this was just, that the patio was open and she, you know, and she had gone for, gone for a wander. Erm, by the time we got back from this I think, you know, there was, there were other people were certainly starting to congregate and, in fact, I think some people were starting to search, mainly staff from MARK WARNER, who I think had been alerted fairly quickly. Erm, and it’s a, and it’s a bit of a, it’s a bit of a blur as to, you know, what, what happened at this point. As I said before, I think I probably went round to Jane before I’d done this, this sort of leg to the beach and back, but it may have been, it may have been that I actually went round at this point. And, erm, I went round to the, you know, went round to the room, erm, and, from recollection, Jane was stood in the doorway, I think almost certainly with Rachael, possibly with Fiona as well. Erm, and, you know, I went up and she was, you know, clearly very, very distressed, erm, just, erm, you know, phew, you know, almost, almost sort of shaking, and I, you know, I just thought it was just part of the, you know, the shock that we were all kind of experiencing, and I gave her a quick hug and she said, you know, ‘I think I saw someone. I think I saw someone taking Madeleine away’ and she sort of told me what, erm, what, you know, what she, what she had witnessed when she’d done her check, but, you know, hadn’t put too much weight on it because you know, until, until your suspicions are raised, you know, why would you, why would you. Erm, and as we discussed before, you know, there is no doubt in my mind, I mean, I’ve known Jane for twelve years, that she is, erm, she is calm, she is collected, she doesn’t make a fuss, she doesn’t, erm, she doesn’t get flustered by things, you know, if there’s a problem then she just gets on with it, she’s not neurotic, she’s not hysterical and, you know, from her recollection at the time, this wasn’t, this wasn’t something that dawned on her hours later, this was an instant, erm, visceral feeling, you know, right inside, that, that these two things were absolutely related, you know, as soon as she knew that Madeleine was missing then, then, erm, it was, it was absolutely clear as anything to her, you know. I’ve said, I’ve said the other day on the other film, you know, that she has been treated abominably by the Press, erm, fantasist, liar, you know, sympathetic witness ,whatever you like, it’s been repeated over and over again, it’s gone unchallenged, it’s gone undefended, it hasn’t been, hasn’t been put to bed by a statement from the Police and, you know, this, Jane would not make this up, there is no question in my mind that she would fabricate this, there’s no, as I’ve said before, there’s no, there is no benefit for finding Madeleine by creating some random false lead off into the dark, you know, in a certain direction. Erm, and Jane hasn’t been, you know, has never been more sure f something in her life, I mean, she didn’t see enough of this person to know exactly what they looked like, she didn’t see the child to know that it was definitely Madeleine, but something triggered her suspicion at the time, but because, you know, as far as she was concerned, all was well in the flats, you know, she didn’t really kind of think much more of it, but then, as soon as she knew Madeleine was gone, there was something odd about this chap, it wasn’t right, it wasn’t right the way, the speed, you know, and all the things that she’s, you know, undoubtedly described. But, but she has been treated like xxxx for nine months in the Press, I mean, it’s been disgusting, it’s been absolutely appalling, you know, and I think, huh, I mean, none of, you know, you know, I’ve said earlier, I mean, I cannot abide the media and I think they’re, I think they’re an absolute disgrace at the best of times and had a fairly strong view of them beforehand and it’s only been made dramatically, dramatically worse by this, but, you know, they, they have poured scorn on what we consider and certainly Jane considers to be the fundamental sort of eye witness account of this and, you know, at every stage when she’s done her, you know, when the, the picture was commissioned, it’s been laughed at, scorned at, you know. I don’t think there’s any doubt in Jane’s mind, erm, that this is, this is, this is what, this is the moment where Madeleine was being taken away and, you know, as a, as a statement, you know, a personal witness for her, she is not going to make this up and it’s not going to be, erm, huh, it’s not going to be some hysterical reaction to the circumstances, that is just not Jane’s personality and I think she’s demonstrated that during the year by, by, you know, when not reacting in a hysterical way to, you know, phew, national TV interviews and everything else. So, anyway, I saw her at some point either after the initial searches or after this longer one. Erm, then, erm, there’s a period of time where, where we didn’t search and, erm, we were trying to do things, you know, nearby, erm, one of the, one of the things we tried to do after the Police, the local GNR Police had arrived, was we tried to get, we tried to get the photograph, erm, Kate certainly had some on her camera, they were looking for one, you know, face on that was big enough rather than a, you know, a profile or something, so that took a little while, we then didn’t have any means of printing it and a lot of the MARK WARNER staff were around including John the Manager, I think it was Kat the Nanny, erm, but certainly one of the Nannies made, you know, certainly had found, found either a, well either a printer themselves that would print only from cameras or at least, erm, a connection to the printer that we could use for the card, I can’t remember what the equipment was in the end, but all of this took quite a, quite a while to get hold of. Erm, you know, there was sort of pandemonium outside really, erm, attempts were made to, to get in touch with the Consulate, erm, and, erm, you know, there, and a lot of conversations between us together and also members of the, erm, members of the MARK WARNER staff and bystanders as well about what had happened and there was, there was quite a lot of people helping out in, in the sort of local searches as well around the adjacent blocks. At some point in amongst this but before, probably before I, erm, you know, tried to get hold of the pictures, I actually ventured towards, in towards five, erm, five ‘A’ and, as I said the other day, I really did feel at a little bit of a loss and quite pathetic in terms of, you know, knowing what to, you know, how to support Kate and Gerry and I’ve always felt a little, I mean, we’ve all felt a little ashamed that, you know, were a bit powerless to, to, to really kind of, to help them and to support them, but, you know, my recollection of Gerry at some stage around this time was I came up the steps, I could certainly hear him, I mean, even earlier than this, you could hear wails of despair, erm, you know, almost sort of inhuman wails of despair from Kate inside the flat on, erm, erm, on a number, a number of occasions when we went back and, erm, but this was the first time I’d actually really seen or heard Gerry, he was on the phone to, erm, a member of his family, erm, curled up really on the floor just outside the sliding patio door just sobbing uncontrollably and in between sobs just saying ‘They’ve’, you know, ‘Someone’s taken her’ or ‘Somebody’s blo*dy got her’, you know, ‘She’s gone’ and absolutely erm, you know, you know, for such a strong man to see him on the floor broken he was, he was incapable of even standing up, he was just lying on the floor and just repeating himself, there was so little he could, you know, there was just nothing else in there.

Erm, and, erm, at this point, you know, there was, erm, you know, other conversations, you know, this is where I believe I had my first meeting and conversations with, with, with Robert MURAT, he’d helped break up a little bit of a, of a fracas between a couple of guests and the, and the Police, the couple of Police who were, who were there and were standing outside the apartment or just a little bit up from it, erm, and, erm, they weren’t, they weren’t visibly doing very much and I think a couple of the, either British ex-pats who live there or tourists, one of whom, they were both in kind of their fifties, if I remember rightly, they were getting quite, quite mouthy, they were quite, they had a very clear idea of what they thought that should be done and, erm, at one point they were, they were saying this quite loudly to, to, you know, a couple of members of the GNR whose English obviously wasn’t good enough to hear a, a shouted colloquial rant in English at them, erm, and I’ve a recollection of, of, of MURAT sort of saying, you know, ‘Hang on guys they can’t understand you’, you know, being actually very helpful and that is my recollection of him on the night, that he came across as concerned, like a lot of people, you know, said ‘I’ve got a daughter the same sort of age, this is terrible, this is terrible’, helping defuse the situation with, with the, erm, with the, erm, with a couple of members of the GNR. I had another conversation, I mean, over,

I’m not entirely sure what sort of timescale this is, I think my original statements said this was all around one am, but it’s all a little bit of a blur, erm, I had a few other conversations with him, erm, either round the back of the apartments, erm, I mean, he was saying that, you know, again, sort of console here, very consolatory kind of comments which were, which a lot of people were saying to anyone who they knew was part of the group, erm, and one thing he did make a mention of was, you know, it was something about Norfolk, which I believe is where he his, his, his wife and kid live and he said there was, you know, there was a case a few, a few years back, erm, of someone went missing and then they turned up, they may have turned up hundreds of miles away, but, you know, they were unharmed, they were safe.

Again, you know, the kind of thing that most people were quite happy to, happy to hear and, you know, I didn’t have any, any great sort of suspicion about him on the night, in fact, he didn’t feature in any of our statements on the first or the second attempt, erm, I know Fiona and Rachael have much more vehement views on what he was like, they found him a little, you know, different, but, from my point of view, he was, he was just helping like a number of other individuals and, erm, and being fluent in Portuguese was, was obviously a big help on such a night. Erm, he also sort of gave the impression that he might have done some Police work before and, to be fair, I probably didn’t know at the time but now I don’t know whether he was referring to translation work that he’d done with the Portuguese Police here or whether he’d been involved in translating for, for Police in Britain, you know, in the opposite direction, but I’ve got this vague, vague now recollection of some kind of conversation on that, on that, erm, on that level.

Erm, the next, so, you know, at some point I think I felt, I was starting to feel sort of useless again, just hanging around the apartment, you know, there were a lot of people, you know, going around at this point, so I opted, after the pictures and after a period of time back in the flat and conversations to go away again, erm, and this time I searched over and on towards the Millennium Restaurant, so in a, in a completely different direction to where I had been before. As I said, I don’t think the, although people, there was some coordination within small groups of individuals, there wasn’t really a systematic route to anyone being searched, so I may have been covering ground that had been done before, but, nonetheless, I chose somewhere that I hadn’t been before, erm, searched along those roads, there’s a few alleys that kind of, well alleys the wrong word, erm, roads that I presume higher up just sort of go, you know, lead out of town, that run parallel to the road that goes up past Millennium, erm, I went round a few of, erm, a couple of these with increasing futility really, and I think despite there being a bit of moonlight, I couldn’t really see very much, erm, there were sort of dog barks and you kind of think, you know, ‘I’m just going to walk into some field of rabid dogs’, so in the end I kind of double back. And I think almost as I’d, you know, given up on walking up these roads, I went down and, as I said on Tuesday, erm, a car came up one of these roads with what I think was Dan the tennis coach inside and another, at least, I think at least one more occupant, I can’t remember whether he was driving or whether he was in the, in the passenger seat, but he certainly recognised, recognised me in the headlights and being as tall as I am it’s usually fairly easily spotted, erm, and he, and I kind of said ‘Look, I’ve been up there, I can’t really see very much’, he said ‘Don’t worry, we’re driving up these with the headlights, we’ll have a good look’. So I came back to the, the main, the main road, erm, that was leading over to the Millennium and then for a fair amount of time went round all of the individual flats there and looked, the ground floor, you know, they’re all, they’re all identical with walls running like this and gates and you can open the gate and you can look in on the ground floor at all of the gardens and there were a number of other people kind of searching around doing the same sort of thing. Erm, and then at some stage I headed back to the apartment, that was, that was my final search of the night.

The, the next real recollection, I mean, I don’t know how much time we spent in our own flats and talking outside, but the next recollection really is, erm, being in the, in the flat, this was sort the first time I remember being in the flat with, with, erm, with, with Gerry, you know, around this point there, there were a lot more, I think, I think the PJ had arrived and certainly there were actually other, other members of the GNR around as well because there was, you know, a fair number of people milling around in the, in the passageway going in through the, the, erm, the locked door, not, so not on the patio side, but there were a lot of people including Police around, around the exit there near the shutters and stuff.

Erm, and at some stage sort of quietened off and the, the PJ sat down with, you know, came in and sat down with Gerry, the recollections of what happened there are relatively dim now, but the only ones I can really recall was, although it was prompted by what you showed me on Tuesday, was that we were writing on the back of a piece of card, I thought it was a cereal box but obviously it was a children’s book, a very kind of, very, very, draft idea of what happened in the hour and, erm, and what state the windows and the shutters had been in and I think I, that was, that was written with me sat at the table in Kate and Gerry’s room. Gerry by this point had certainly calmed down but was, his head was just on the table, you know, like that, he was just staring at the, at the table, very, very quiet and very, very low. Dave PAYNE was in there at least at one point early on. And I think possibly Sylvia this Housekeeper, I think she came in, I think she was offering to translate at some point. But anyway Dave PAYNE said to, erm, there were two members of the PJ had arrived, there was a guy I remember being almost shaved bald head, quite dark complexion, and a second one who we kind of nicknamed ‘baby face’ who did our fingerprinting about a week later, erm, and those two were there and Dave was, was saying, you know, ‘Shouldn’t we’, you know, ‘Why are we sitting here, shouldn’t you be on the radio, shouldn’t there be more people here, shouldn’t there be’, you know, ‘this should be on the radio, it should be on the television’ and, erm, I recall ‘baby face’ or his colleague saying ‘No media’, and, you know, and that was full-stop and then turning round to me writing the timeline and saying ‘That’s what we want’, fair enough. Erm, huh, and that’s really it. At some point Jane came in, I think because Jane was in with our kids at this point, I didn’t hang around too, you know, too long and I went out, but Jane came in I think to give a brief statement to the, the, the PJ on the night, erm, and this is where she’s concerned that, she didn’t really want to believe what she had seen and she was worried that she had played it down to those staff on the, on the night, such that, that she was never taken seriously again by the PJ, erm, but, erm, that was, that, I mean, that was, you know, her concern about how she, how she pitched it at the time, but she desperately didn’t want to believe that what she saw was, was true and be the last person, you now, in the group to sort of see Madeleine. Erm, and then I have to say that the rest of the evening is, is a bit of a blur, the PJ were at the flat I think for probably about an hour, but I’m guessing there. At some stage they permitted or told, erm, erm, somebody, Kate and Gerry, that the, that the, that the twins could be taken upstairs, because certainly one of the next things I can recall is quite late on in the evening being upstairs, erm, in five ‘H’, the twins were , I think they’d been taken up there, I think they were still, I think they were still asleep, although at one point they, they did, did wake up and I think Kate and Gerry later on were, were cuddling them. Erm, and we were all just stood there almost in, in silence or at best whispers, you know, absolutely dumbstruck by, you know, the, the, the turn of events. Erm, and, you know, Kate and Gerry were sort of sat on, they were sat on the sofas there or on the edge of the sofa, erm, absolutely broken, just, just, you know, hugging each other and or just sat there, erm, and we were there, you know, well I was up there for a while, I’ve no idea what time this was really, erm, it seemed, well it seemed like we’d been up all night already but it was still dark and I think we went, we decided that we, you know, we weren’t going to, we weren’t going to search anymore, most of the, most of, by this point, most of MARK WARNER I think had largely decided as well that there was no obvious sign of her in the immediate vicinity and the fact that, you know, there was no-one outside at one point and when I went to bed everyone had gone, erm, clearly, well at least most of the GNR, I don’t know if there was anyone still there at all. Erm, and had a very brief, erm, period of lying next to E, I think I went in one room with E and I think E had already been moved into our room and Jane slept with her in there and just lay there for an hour or so, certainly didn’t get any sleep. Erm, and then, you know, we, we got up, I think it was probably in the first twinkling of light, and I don’t really remember anything, there was certainly no breakfast eaten, I mean, there was nothing like that. My next real recollection is going back up to, to five ‘H’, you know, it’d be light by this point so it must have been, you know, seven, you know, seven o’clock, seven thirty or something, I remember it was light. And, erm, you know, the situation was pretty much as I’d left it before and, you know, Kate and Gerry were there and, you know, I think they, I remember them telling us that they, you know, they, I think in the end they’d gone out searching on their own, you know, they were just depressed because they said, you know, there was no-one else there, you know, they were the only ones out, you know. So just, just almost a, a muted silence, but the twins were there, I think they were, they were awake. Erm, I think at some point, as I say, the phone call, questions on there, around the eight o’clock mark, particularly because Rachael at some stage, I can remember her being sat in our apartment and Rachael was talking to a colleague or a friend who worked at the BBC News Desk, I think it was, she was certainly on the phone, you know, on the phone to a colleague who, who either directly or indirectly worked for the BBC or knew somebody who did and, erm, but that was, that was, I’d missed that out, that was certainly earlier on, probably before we’d gone to bed. Erm, and at some point we put the SKY News on the, on the TV in their room and, you know, it was breaking news and I thought I’d better ring my mum because, I’m not quite sure how specific, I forget how specific it was, but I thought, you know, mum needs to know what’s happened and also if it’s ‘a child has gone missing in Portugal’, my mum would probably go ‘Crikey, I hope that’s not one of ours’, so I had a very tearful conversation with my mum explaining what had happened and, erm, you know, and, you know, sort of saying well, you know, ‘E and’, you know, ‘E and E are safe, but it is, it’s Madeleine’ and, erm, erm, you know, as I say, she was pretty upset and, erm, well it was only a brief call and didn’t really have a lot to say and, erm, you know, when my dad came back, you know, my mum was in a terrible state and he thought one of us was dead.


1578 “As a significant witness to assist the Portuguese Authorities in their investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine MCCANN in Portugal on the third of May, two thousand and seven. I would now like to move on to some time lines and we have, these are copies of written documents or time lines written on the back of, looks like a kiddies book or something”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “An activity book. If we could just for a few moments go through these documents”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
00.01.54 1578 “Which one came first”?
Reply “Erm as we discussed the other day, I’d forgotten these over the year but I think this is an attempt, this is a draft attempt, they’re both in my handwriting, this is a draft attempt, err and then I think I’m transcribing in a slightly more a neater writing, hoping that it’s more legible for other people to read as well, so I think this one came first”.
1578 “So just to differentiate between the two documents”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “One of them has the word ‘Gerald’.”
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “Written towards the lower half of the document and the other one does not”.
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “You’re saying the one with ‘Gerald’ written on it, was the final document”?
Reply “Well it was certainly second one, I said I think I was writing this down in a hurry when I”.
1578 “It came after this, this first one”?
Reply “It came after this one yeah, yeah”.
1578 “So the one that doesn’t bare the name of ‘Gerald’.”
Reply “Is the earlier one”.
1578 “Was the first attempt, the earlier attempt as you say. When was this drafted up”?
Reply “Erm this was drafted er around the time that the initial pair of Officers from the PJ came to 5A (inaudible) early in the morning of the fourth of May, two thousand and seven so erm I can certainly recall writing some of this, I think perhaps the neat, maybe the neater version erm sat down at the table in Gerry’s flat with Gerry erm Dave PAYNE and at least at some stage of it, the two Officers from the, from the PJ”.1578 “What would have been the time difference between these two documents”?
Reply “Er that I’m not too sure, I think what, what essentially I’m doing, is I’m, I’ve written something here fairly quickly for myself and then I’ve looked at it and thought it’s, it’s not actually gonna be useful to hand to anyone to read other than me, so I think they’re probably not that far, I’ve written that and then I’ve sat down, perhaps I was writing this with that being on my knee or something and never sat down, but I don’t, I don’t recall the time difference but, but we’re looking at from what I describe about my activities in the run up to this, to these being within you know, a short space of time, half an hour, maybe even less, I don’t think I wrote this, had it in my pocket for a night, the other thing that makes me think that is, is probably the front of the back cover of a book”.
00.04.32 1578 “Yes”.
Reply “So I’ve probably, I’ve probably written it, thought that’s rubbish, even I can barely read it, let’s start again, I don’t think there’s much time difference”.
1578 “If we look at the ‘Gerald’ one”.
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “You have a recording at nine thirty”.
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “Russell O'BRIEN in 5D”.
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “What does that read”?
Reply “It says with poorly daughter”.
1578 “Oh sorry, with poorly daughter”.
Reply “With (inaudible) abbreviation for with”.
00.05.06 1578 “And then there’s nothing until nine fifty five pm”.
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “And I think at ten pm the, you have the next entry, alarm raised”.
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “Okay”.
Reply “After (inaudible) I think all of this is incomplete, I mean that’s an incomplete sentence there, erm yeah that’s alarm raised after Kate and I presume I’m gonna write return to table but, but, but I haven’t”.
1578 “So when we compare the ‘Gerald’ version”.
Reply “Yeah”.
1578 “To the earlier version”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “You see that at nine thirty five, you have written”.
Reply “Matt checks, Matt checks the twins, checks and sees twins”.
1578 “Matt checks and sees twins”.

Reply “It looks like that, yeah that what it looks like, as I say it’s, it’s, it’s not even that great for me to read there, but it does say Matt, Matt checks and sees twins, so this is as I said after Matt left me in 5D, he’s gone back and I think there was a, certainly there was a concern that Matt was, whether he actually definitely saw Madeleine at the time or not, he can certainly (inaudible) certainly in the, in the days and hours afterwards I mean Matt was unsure about whether he definitely clocked Madeleine in the room, although he was quite convinced that he, he, both the twins were there, so I think that’s why I’ve written that there”.
1578 “The nine thirty entry on the non Gerald version if you like”.
Reply “Yeah”.
00.06.32 1578 “Is”?
Reply “It says Russ and Matt check all three, so this is just an abbreviated time, an approximate time that me and Matt came back from the table to check on the, on the flat and I’ve crossed out E**a there and so it was written in, in haste”.
1578 “And then the, on the ‘Gerald’ version, you have a vertical line between nine thirty and nine fifty five”.
Reply “Yeah, yeah”.
1578 “What did that signify”?
Reply “I’m not sure, I don’t know whether this was, this was me trying to get the sort of start and the end together and err and then, and then asked, asked for more, you know more detail of what people were doing. From a personal point of view I suppose once, once I was in the, in the erm room at nine thirty, I wasn’t, I wasn’t privy to any of the other direct information, so whether this is just sort of me thinking that I’ll need to fill this in later, but you know it’s just a, this is incomplete, this sentence is incomplete and I think at some stage whilst I was writing this, the PJ were very keen to talk to Gerry then I left and I think then Jane came in, so I think this is something that was actually being written at about a point where I left it with the Police and then Jane was, Jane and Gerry were talking to the PJ”.
1578 “Okay. We have another version here, time line”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “And this is a typed version”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “And it’s headed sequence of events, Thursday the third of May, two thousand and seven, twenty thirty hours to twenty two hundred hours as recalled by, then we have the, the group of adults there. Are you happy with the content of this document Russell?”
Reply “Yeah either, (inaudible), this is, this is the document that the group together created erm as we were saying before, after the first weekend, err I think we all felt when we came back from our initial interviews that with the amount of information, the need to, to translate erm, that we came back feeling that, that there was, there was probably a lot of detail that hadn’t been got across about the evening, we were quite keen to try and get a time line together before some of the facts started to become dim for us as well, so I think it was Dave who, who suggested err as I’m not entirely sure of the exact date but certainly on sort of the Monday and the Tuesday perhaps of the, of the, the week after, the week after the abduction”.1578 “Yes”.
00.09.08 Reply “Erm you know that we should probably sit down and do this, I think he was quite keen to write it about the whole holiday before the weekend and after erm, I mean in retrospect I think I wish we, I wish we had, erm but we, we settled to do the, you know the immediate period that evening, erm it was typed, I typed it and it was typed on a borrowed laptop from err the tennis coach of Mark WARNER who’s called Georgina, the surname of, of who, I don’t think we have ever, ever known, erm we compiled it over the course of probably a, a couple of sittings during one day. Kate and Gerry by this point after the weekend were, well they were having meetings with the likes of Alan PIKE the Psychologist that came out to, to see them and they were, they were often erm organising things and speaking to people, the Consulate etc., etc., etc., so we actually saw err you know probably less and less of them as the days wore on, so they weren’t here with the initial draft of it, but we just left their comments to be added later and then we told them that we’d done this and they came, err read it through, added in the bits that were relevant to when you know, when, what they saw and err and when they left the table, as well as the time line erm Jane gave a, a full, as full as possible description of the person she thought she saw carrying a child that may have been Madeleine away and I think erm there’s also a fair amount of detail about some suspicions from, from Gerry that the room might have been in a slightly different way, err than what it was based on his and Matt’s observations of going into the room. So we got, we, we wrote this, we wrote this down very much to try and get a, a permanent record of what we thought as accurate as general as a thought had been in the group, erm having (inaudible), it’s important to say cos we’ve, I get the impression from again you know, from the Police perhaps but, but certainly from what comes out in the Press, that this has been perceived by the PJ as an attempt to, to sort of standardise our answers and you know and make sure that we’re all saying the same thing, it certainly wasn’t created with that intention, it was very much that the original statements were, were brief, were obviously prone to translational difficulties and you know, at no point have we concealed this, I turned up on my second interview and presented them with the, with the stick and said, ‘look we’ve sat down, it’s all typed, we think this is quite accurate, there you go’, so you know, it’s been, it was, it was, it was really quite hard for, you know to hear that, or at least hear the fact be implied that the Police felt that this was some, some conspiracy to try and err and cover things up, this was, this was done to go over the events, down on paper before they become, inevitably they got less and less clear in our mind and we were transparent in that we gave this to the Police at the very next meeting, there was no attempt to conceal this and have this as a hidden document that we were all reading from”.00.12.18 1578 “Okay. We shall move on to the next phase which is a list of questions I shall ask you and these originate from the PJ”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “And then we shall follow on with Gerry and Kate’s list of questions”.
Reply “Okay”.
1578 “And then any other business really”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “So firstly, what time did you arrive at the Tapas Restaurant the evening of the third of May, two thousand and seven”?
Reply “Erm I’d say I think this was probably around quarter to nine”.
1578 “Were you alone or with your wife”?
Reply “I was alone, Jane had come down to the table five, ten minutes earlier”.
00.13.26 1578 “Who was already sitting at the table”?
Reply “At the time of arrival, everyone was there apart from the adults in 5H, so that would be Fiona and David and her mum Diane”.
1578 “How often were you checking on your children”?
Reply “Well”.
1578 “And how”?
Reply “During the week we, things sort of (inaudible) but in general terms, me and Jane were checking with err between courses, err I know some of the people were doing it more by the clock but we tend to go between courses, sometimes we were also off for you know, we’re listening at, at least the windows and doors of other, of other rooms and checking directly in our own child’s room, erm err as, as we discussed before on a, at least one occasion on the Sunday night I also went into both Matt and Rachael’s flat with a key through their deadlocked door, as with Kate and Gerry’s err patio door to just look in on their kids, erm but generally speaking at least for me, thereafter in the week, I would usually just check internally in ours and listen at the window at, at the other flats before returning, erm in terms of frequency as I say, although some people were doing it by the, by the clock and it was, was relatively ad hoc you know when, when the moment took, I think for me and Jane it was generally in between courses and we’d often alternate”.
1578 “Okay. During the dinner that evening, were you always at the table”?
Reply “No, erm I say I arrived about quarter to nine and as I described in, in the, my account of, of the evening, I made erm a single trip back to the flat, err and then returned and that was err with Matthew OLDFIELD at about sort of twenty five past nine, somewhere around there. On that visit it was clear listening at the window that E**e had woken up, erm and so as I’ve already, already gone over, I went into the flat, had a wee, Matt came back after checking 5B, he discovered you know that I’d found E**e, that had been awake and she’d vomited, asked if I wanted any help, I said no, he returned via Gerry and Kate, Gerry’s flat, I stayed there err got E**e out, out of her, out of her sort of soiled clothes erm gave her a quick wash and the clothes down, changed her into something else, sat read her a book, Jane came back and then I returned to the table about quarter to ten”.
00.16.14 1578 “As the questions go through, it says if you weren’t at the table, where did you go”.
Reply “(Inaudible) 5, 5D”.
1578 “And at what time”?
Reply “So about twenty five past nine I left the table”.
1578 “For what purpose (inaudible)”?
Reply “To check on the kids and ultimately to stay with E**e”.
1578 “How long were you absent”?
Reply “It would be in total, it’s between from about twenty five past nine and returning to the table about err, err about quarter to ten”.
1578 “And how many times were you absent”?
Reply “That was the only, that was the only trip”.
1578 “After the alarm was raised, what did you do”?
Reply “Erm like the rest of the table, with the exception of Diane, we ran to the foot of the erm, the staircase or the steps outside, err at that point I didn’t go into the flat, a number of people I think stayed just at the, just at the door, some people went in, certainly Gerry, Kate and Fiona err and then obviously erm we started an immediate search as I’ve described before”.
1578 “Who did you talk with”?
Reply “Is this at any specific time”?
1578 “It follows on from the previous question, so after the alarm was raised, what did you do”?
Reply “Yeah okay”.
1578 “And who did you talk with”?
Reply “Well at that point in time, there was only really the group there, err there was no other, no other parties immediately around straight away, erm there was a very brief conversation with you know, some of the other group and to quickly establish what we ought to do straight away, erm I presume some of the others were doing a second search, just inside the flat just to make sure Kate hadn’t missed them but I certainly think that, that Matt and Dave and I think perhaps after a, some (inaudible) Gerry, we, we, we kind of split up, so we had a conversation just about, let’s, you go that way, you go that way, erm but there wasn’t anyone else around I don’t think to talk to, some, somebody went back to the Tapas both to let Diane know about everything you know and I presume the waiters will have been spoken to but it wasn’t, not by me”.
00.18.35 1578 “Did you have any photo of Madeleine in your possession”?
Reply “Erm we got a photo of Madeleine later on but this is two hours later, erm”.
1578 “So who gave it to you”?
Reply “Okay well certain, I’m not quite sure what the, the initial, the question made it sound like whoever had one in our possession anyway, I didn’t, erm we got a, we erm, after a portion of my searches, we got hold of erm Kate’s camera, err looked through the digital cam to try and find a picture of Madeleine reasonably recently, reasonably face on and, and with her being the main, the main character on the photograph, erm clearly that that was going through, there were quite a few pictures that were not ideal, so we, we went through those, err and then printed that off, erm all of this taking a reasonable amount of time to try and get hold of equipment and have offices opened and etc., etc”.
1578 “Okay. What kind of photo was it”?
Reply “The, it was a, it was a photo of err, it was the one that was being circulated in the, in the days immediately afterwards, I’ve seen so many photographs of her, of Madeleine since, I think it was a photograph that had been taken of her and a relatively number of weeks before and I think with a slightly different, slightly longer hair, erm but it was, it was a fa, it was a fa, it was a relatively full on sort of face on photograph, err and it was printed on a standard size erm four by six err inch, as you know, using the equipment that the people had and we ran off a number of copies of this, erm and several I think were given to the, the GNR”.
00.20.21 1578 “I was going to ask you the next question”.
Reply “Sorry”.
1578 “Was, who did you give the photo to”?
Reply “Yeah well I think the ones that I had, I took, you know cos obviously they were printing out, you know they were slow you know, we really wanted to get them to the Police fairly quickly, so I took the first couple of copies and took those round to, I think the GNR staff, I presume they were the origin, you know original uniformed Officers, it wasn’t the PJ, it was well before the PJ arrived, erm there were other copies printed off which I don’t know where they got to but I know that Mark WARNER, somebody in Mark WARNER made a poster, or at least an A4 err saying that there’d been, you know, there’d been a, err an abduction and that Madeleine was missing and that was circulated around the next morning, so somebody had, had, had that photograph and used it for that poster but I took, I don’t know two or three copies maybe and gave them to the Police. I actually think ultimately there may have been more copies printed off and somebody else gave even more copies to them as well, err and I think some of the other copies were shown, were just shown to people around who were going on the searches but erm personally”.
1578 “The copies that you had, you only gave to the Police”?
Reply “I gave it to the Police, just to the Police”.
1578 “Do you know who informed the Authorities of Madeleine’s disappearance”?
Reply “Er as we discussed when we were going through the, the erm, the notes from the, the previous statement, I think erm that this was Gerry and Matt but I was not around, I don’t think I was around at the time, I was second hand information, I was erm, I was probably searching at the time that that happened”.
00.21.53 1578 “Do you know who informed the media of Madeleine’s disappearance”?
Reply “There were several attempts during the night to, to look about getting an email out to something like Sky or something like that, I don’t actually think that ever happened in the end, just because of practicalities and other people doing it but my inclination is that Rachael, Rachael OLDFIELD spoke to a colleague err back in the UK who either worked for the BBC or at least knew someone who worked for the BBC, so I, I, I think it was Rachael”.
1578 “Do you know when they were informed”?
Reply “Erm I think I got this out, slightly out of place when we were discussing it before and talked about it really about the next morning, I think I can, I think I can picture err Rachael talking to erm somebody at the News Desk in our, from our flat, err in the dead of night really, so quite err, quite late on, three, four am maybe but I really don’t, I really don’t know, but it was well after the, the main, the main kind of rush of, of, of the search and the events and it’s when we were back at the, back at the apartments later on”.
1578 “So that was the Media”?
Reply “That was the Media”.
1578 “Do you know when the Authorities were involved”?
Reply “Well it was during, it was in a period of time when I was doing the search so erm I can only say what, what other people, I know that, I know from speaking to the rest of the group that there was some reluctance on the part of staff down at the Ocean Club reception to ring the Police but they were, they kind of you know, in the end had to sort of insist on it but I think it was, it would have happened not long after that original, original search but I couldn’t put a time on it, I’d be, I’d be, I’d be making one up”.
1578 “Did you take part in any searches”?
Reply “Yes, and I presume that what I’ve”.
00.23.44 1578 “With, with whom and how were they planned”?
Reply “Right okay. Yes as described and, and as described in the last interview, erm there was an initial search of the building, of the perimeter of the building, erm and then we re-met again, I then did a solitary search down the, the west side of the apartments into the car park and shopping centre as I discussed, err there was then a, a joint search with me, Matt and Dave coming, sweeping down the town err towards the ri, the river, err towards the sea and erm then we split up and searched the beach and obviously we lost, we kind of lost each other during this point and then I came back as sort of, as exact manner to the, to being on my own, I then did a, after quite a long time by the apartments did a final search in the, in the sort of, the road out towards Millennium, erm and the, and the adjoining roads that go off into the dark there and then did a, and then on my way back after having met Dan in the car who then carried on going up those roads, I erm did a brief search in the flats to the sort of south side of, of the road that leads up to the Millennium”.
1578 “Okay and how were they planned”?
Reply “Bad, err very, very, kind of at the drop of a hat, I mean the, the initial search was just, you know just to make sure she hadn’t wandered off, I think there was some planning by some of the Mark WARNER staff, just to make sure that individuals went off in different areas, there wasn’t really a great deal of coordination with the ones that I did, the early ones were happening before there was a group there and the one I did last, probably after, you know whilst I was back, err outside the apartment for a period of time, there was a lot of searching going on that may have been more coordinated than what I was doing, when I went back out, there wasn’t any clear coordination, so I just went to somewhere different that I hadn’t, that I hadn’t checked before”.
1578 “Okay. During your stay at the Ocean Club, did you ever leave your doors open to the apartment”?
Reply “No I don’t think so, erm certainly when we weren’t using the apartment, it was always completely shut down, we generally kept all the shutters down, just to keep the heat and the sun out of the apartment, so they were reasonably cool for the, for the evenings, when we went, we went to the, the Tapas err in the evenings we, we kind of locked and pulled the shutters down on, on all the bedrooms both front and back, err the patio was locked, erm and then we would go out the main door and there was the option of turning the lock to a sort of dead lock, so it couldn’t be opened either from the inside or the outside without the key, just in case err, you know E**a did get up, which was unlikely but we felt it was easier to do it that way and during the day, I mean occasionally we would sit outside on the patio, err but I don’t think if we went, if we went away from the, from there for any length of time, we would have locked up, I don’t remember leaving it unlocked”.
1578 “Did you ever leave your windows open”?
Reply “No, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t think so, erm generally speaking we didn’t touch them very much, err you know we might have pulled the shutters up during the, during the day, from recollection, the front, the front windows were, were all patio sliding ones and so they were like, you have gone in and out of them but you’d have shut them and the other windows at the, on the kitchen side and the kids bedroom side, I don’t think we opened and closed those very much, I mean we may have given a bit of a breath of fresh air but we didn’t leave them routinely open”.


1578 "Did you see Matthew leave the table during the meal?”
Reply "Err yeah, obviously he left at, he left to try and get the PAYNE’S but…”
1578 "At what time?”
Reply "I think It would have been around the nine o’ clock mark. And yes he was behaving normally, err I don’t recall any particular things he said when he came back, err…”
1578 "How long was he absent for?”
Reply "Just a matter of again, the same sort of as Jane, just enough time really just to do a quick, a quick kind of check err you know two or three, three or four minutes, something like that, no more than that.”
01:02:35 1578 "And then obviously there was the time with yourself.”
Reply "Oh yes, and then we left the table together.”
1578 "Did you see Kate leaving the table during the meal?”
Reply "Err I can remember Kate being away, I don’t, I can’t picture the moment of her standing up.”
1578 "At what time?”
Reply "It would have been approximately just before ten because we did have the reference of someone asking what sort of time it was err and Rachael announcing the time to the table, she may have been the only one.”
1578 "How long was she absent for?”
Reply "Err well it, as I say, it’s hard with not, with not kind of knowing the way, but clearly if she was away she was away for a number of minutes if I, I mean I can, I can recall her not being there for a little while and obviously that’s fairly, fairly obvious considering that the moment of her return is when it all kicked off so I, she was gone at least several, at least several minutes, you know and err that’s, that can be fairly you know sure of her absence more because clearly her return was so you know was so, you know so, so important to everything err...”
01:03:53 1578 "All we need in there.”
Reply "Sure.”
1578 "What did Kate say when she came back?”
Reply "Err I don’t recall the individual words as well as I think we’ve said on Tuesday and today, I can only really remember, remember the meaning and that was that, that Madeleine’s gone err I know there’s been a lot said about other things. That’s, that’s the only words I heard. I was deep in, deep in tucking through my, my food and I think other people were probably sat back and relaxing a bit more whereas I was actually eating at the time and the only, the only kind of really feeling I got from it all was you know Madeleine’s, you know, that she’s, you know she’s gone, Madeleine’s gone. Err but what the words were rather than the meaning I don’t know.”
1578 "How did she look?”
Reply "Err pretty ghastly, you know, at this, this point just very, very, you know just extremely concerned you know and she shouted you know sort of very loudly into the distance, it’s hard to tell but you just knew that she was, she was you know very, very concerned about something.”
1578 "What was her behaviour like?”
Reply "Err well initially, I say initially we just got a shout and, and everyone sort of swept up there err and I didn’t go in with her at the time, there was obviously panic, it was totally appropriate to the situation you know there was a sense of haste and she was, she was going straight back up there with everyone else err in terms of behaviour I can only describe really what happened perhaps over a longer period of time and that she went from you know happy Kate MCCANN sat at the table, laughing and joking and enjoying the evening like everyone, like every, like the rest of us were err through you know obvious concern I don’t remember, whereas I didn’t go in the flat straight away but you know a period of time later, afterwards, just hearing these sort of unearthly pangs of despair coming, I mean shouted out and err and absolutely kind of (inaudible) just hysterical with, with, with pain and anguish err and err you know the, it was a second hand thing you know that she was, you know apparently, I mean I wasn’t, I didn’t see this, but you know apparently on the floor she kind of drew, drew her own blood through bruised, you know her hands were just, you know absolutely, so, so distraught. Err in my opinion, you know, if this was, if there was any foul play bestowed on them, this was the, the, the most powerful Oscar winning act you have ever seen. There was no, there was no way I could imagine anyone could, could hide the fear they must have had if something had already happened and, and then, and, and, and display this, this degree, this degree of anguish without being the most accomplished of, of, and cynical of actors, you know this was unimaginable. I mean I’ve told patients they are dying I’ve told relatives they’ve, you know people have died, you know I’ve seen lots of people very, very angry, you know, you know very, very upset, very, very quickly and really broken and this was, this was as bad as any of them I’ve ever seen or heard. Err you know and the same for Gerry, not, not just in these moments but over the, over the coming, over the coming days, I’ve never ever witnessed such unimaginable grief.”
01:07:32 1578 "Okay. Were you shocked by her words?”
Reply "Well, again, what she shouted at the, at the doors I only, I’ve only ever taken a meaning from that as I said, so I don’t know, not shocked by, well I’m shocked by the words yes that Madeleine was missing. Err and although I can’t remember it you know because it was part of these you know shrieks, and certainly the second hand comments from the other members of the group who heard what she said and what she said to people around her you know, there was every you know hell, god, d**n and xxxx in there you know she swore but was I shocked, no I think this was an absolute normal reaction to what had happened, I don’t think there was any, you know, for Kate and Gerry there was nothing abnormal or suspicious in the way that they, that they reacted to this.”
01:08:24 1578 "What did you do?”
Reply "Err well I think that’s an open question is roughly kind of says what we’ve already discussed before I presume, err at the foot of the stairs I think we had flat, initial searches as discussed before. Err I don’t know is it worth going over that in any more detail?”
1578 "I don’t think so, I think…”
Reply "I presume it means what did I do right at the time, I went to the foot of the steps, didn’t go in initially, obviously did a quick boundary search and then progressively did more as we’ve spoken.”
1578 "Yes. The first question is, did you get inside the MCCANN’S holiday apartment? Did you get inside the bedroom where the children were sleeping? Can you describe what you saw?”
Reply "Yeah.”
1578 "Did you see the twins? Did you notice anything unusual about them?”
Reply "No, okay. Can I go through those in each in turn?”
1578 "Yeah course you can yeah.”
Reply "So…”
1578 "Did you get inside the holiday apartment?”
01:09:17 Reply "I’d been in, I’d been in their apartment twice, I think before, I don’t know on tape at least, but err I went, I did a visual check of the children on the Sunday night, entered through the patio door so I’d been in through that part of the door err that part of the building. Err I think until, actually until the night itself I don’t think I’d actually gone into their apartment again, err if there were lunches and things like that they were generally done in, in one of the other apartments, particularly Kate and, err Dave and Fi’s because it was so much bigger. The err, on the night I didn’t get into the apartment until quite late, I certainly went, when I saw Gerry on the patio as I described earlier on, I think at point I actually did, I actually did see Kate as well but at this point I think we both, you know we were both kind of just in a heap really. Err and then I entered the apartment later on when the P and J arrived, sat at the desk and just, just like inside from the kitchen, between the kitchen and the sitting area. Err in terms of entering the bedroom, I don’t, I don’t think I ever actually went into the bedroom on the Sunday night, I’d kind of gone into the door frame you know and just looked, looked in like that. Err the, the, the twins I think when I was sat in the apartment were still in the room asleep err I mean I think a lot’s been said about you know did they manage to, did they sleep through something, you know, that they couldn’t, you know couldn’t have slept through. I mean my own, my own daughter slept through the fireworks at Kate and, at err Dave and Fi’s wedding so I think children can sleep through a lot more than, than you think if they’re deep asleep. I don’t remember particularly sort of seeing them earlier on in the apartment, in the apartment. I think my, my first recollection is when they were, they’d been moved err into the five H apartment later on err and they were, they were sleepy but it was the middle of the night and then at some stage they were awake and I think sitting on, on err people’s knees, on Kate and Gerry’s knees, but I don’t, yes they, they were asleep for the period of time that I was around. I don’t remember them crying.”
01:11:31 1578 "Did you notice anything unusual about them?”
Reply "I’m trying to think until late, I don’t think I actually saw them within the room itself, or certainly if it was, it was a flee, a fleeting glimpse when we were, when I was in there. Err no, I don’t think so, when they were upstairs later on it was a nice quiet apartment, they were either asleep or I think later on they’d were having s cuddle from, from various people.”
1578 "What did you do next?”
Reply "Err I presume this is all sort of covered really I mean…”
1578 "Did you take part in the subsequent searches?”
Reply "Err…”
1578 "Who was you with? Sorry who was with you?”
Reply "Well yes and as I’ve said before, of all you know, there were people around searching for the most part there was, they were, they were on my own, there was a period of searching with Dave and, Dave and Matt.”
01:12:26 1578 "On realising Madeleine had not been found in the first ten minutes, how did Kate react?”
Reply "I think I’ve already discussed this, I mean although I wasn’t there for the whole of that, that early period whenever you were back from outside you know she was well I can certainly recall hearing her on occasions and when I later saw her she was in, in a you know in a terrible state, an absolute terrible state.”
1578 "And again, the same question for Gerald.”
Reply "Err I can honestly say that I would never ever have expected to see Gerry in that state, so I’d imagine if his, you know if a relative had died err you know he’s not, he’s not, he’s not some kind of cold, cold, big cold heart, but I’d imagine he would, he’s a rational, you know he rationalises things, he says you know she was eighty you know she was (inaudible) she smoked or something, he, he would be upset but he would accept, he would accept it as being a normal part of things, I’ve never seen anything like it, I would never expect to see Gerry like he was. He was, he was err distraught beyond any, any kind of measure.”
01:13:39 1578 "What is your opinion about their behaviour, taking into account Madeleine had gone missing?”
Reply "Yeah, as far as I’m concerned they behaved exactly as you would expect err on the night, unimaginable anguish and grief, err and there’s been a lot made of (inaudible) as I said on Tuesday there’s a lot made of, you know did they behave in the right way, they didn’t cry enough on camera, they were too you know they didn’t say this, they didn’t do that, they didn’t do that. I mean my gut feeling is you know who the xxxx is someone else to say how they should have done this, I’m sorry for swearing but you know, how are you supposed to react after this. They were absolutely distraught on the night, they could, they could barely think for the next, you know the next day, the next day they were in a terrible state. They started to you know pick themselves up with, with some help from you know from, hopefully support from friends and family but also some professional help from you know a crisis counsellor as well and they, this was a such a horrible experience, it was horrible enough and it wasn’t my daughter, that I think you know they, you know they only had, as I said earlier on, they only had two options, they either continued to grieve like they were in the those first couple of days and die, and I’m not, it sounds kind of dramatic, but you cannot live, you can’t live like that.”
1578 "No.”
Reply "I mean that is, that is what, that is what truly makes people just say, xxxx this for a game of soldiers I’m out of here, err or you, or you change your mind set and try and be positive and try and do something active and the, you know the grief they have received because they have actually tried, they tried to do something positive and they tried to you know to take something that was both beneficial for Madeleine and also to some extent for themselves, because if they could have sat in the room all day they wouldn’t, Madeleine I don’t think would be alive if that was the case, and so I think that their critics are, are sanctimonious and you know without, without hitting err because I don’t think anyone really knows how you would react to this and I think they you know hats off to them, they, they were, they were trodden into the ground and they got up and they did something positive. I don’t think I’d have been able to go through, to do what they’ve done err I don’t, you know I think I would’ve been destroyed right from the outset and never have, never have recovered.”
01:16:15 1578 "Okay. What did you do from ten thirty p.m. in the evening to ten a.m. the following day?”
Reply "Err…”
1578 "Who did you see? Who did you talk with?”
Reply "Err I just wonder how much I…”
1578 "And again, these are Gerry and Kate’s questions.”
Reply "Of course. I think for the most part I covered everything in an earlier question and I don’t, do you want me to summarise?”
1578 "Just summarise please, just…”
Reply "Okay, and any additional things that we didn’t cover at the end…”
1578 "Yes.”
Reply "Of the last interview. Err I’ve already mentioned that we did, from my actions in, I’ll get it in some kind of order, I did an immediate search err we then doubled back, we split up again, I searched the, round the back of the tennis courts, down that road, supermarket, shopping centre, met up with Dave at some point near that, found out that we’d still not, still not been met. I think probably at that point is when I went back to see Jane and, and, and found out what she, what she, what she said, and then me, Dave and Matt went down to the water front, split up on the beach, met a few, you know asked a few people as we were going round what’s going on, swept back up from the beach, err back to the, back to the apartment then spent a fair amount of time on there both just talking to people err we got photographs there, there was some attempts to, to get, you know contact with consulate and so on and so forth. Err at this point, as I said before, I think this was my first meeting with Robert MURAT when he was, in my eyes, being very helpful you know liaising with the Police, translating with the Police, offering, offering consolation along with other people, he wasn’t the only person, you know being a supportive member of the public. Err then, it’s hard to get it all back in, then we at some stage there I will have gone into the flat, seen Gerry err briefly and I just lingered around inside the flat feeling fairly useless and at some point I made the decision, I’m going to go and do another search you know I can’t be just standing around now, nothing seems to be happening, went off, searched that sort of northern part over towards Millennium and the accompanying roads and flats just below it, came back and I think at this point the, the PJ had either arrived or shortly after arrived err and then as we discussed made a brief timeline, sat in on the, the early part of the discussion where Dave was asking the PJ to release the information, you know he was saying something get it on the radio, shouldn’t there be more people here, blah, blah and then I think when Jane came in I think perhaps we saw the others housekeeper I’m not sure but then somebody offered to help with translation err then I left, went back to the flat err and then the rest of the night itself was, was largely in and around the flats err at some point Rachael making the call to her friend and then before a brief attempt at just being with the kids for a, for a little while when it was cleared it seemed to have extinguished everyone’s searches and err etcetera who, a brief spell together in the flats upstairs. So that took us through really to the morning, next morning it is a bit, a bit hazy, a bit more hazy but there was only the seeing it had come onto the television err phoning my mum err there was a lot of discussion obviously with, with people from Mark Warner who were setting up facilities to try and help the situation in terms of childcare and err I think at some stage here obviously this is where, I mean it’s definitely the where I got the number off Robert MURAT, off his, from his telephone, as he was just outside five A on the road there. Err the kids went to, they went to the crèche, they were all together, I rang work A and T I then made you know I think at some stage someone had left the job after Kate had gone to the, to Portimão err but I say would I try and arrange for the, the err the priest to come and see her.”
1578 "Yes.”
01:20:55 Reply "And I think I described that err through Ocean Club reception and a few phone calls I got a message to him err and then and that, that only takes us to ten, that’s probably just after ten o’ clock I would have thought.”
1578 "Thank you. Nearly finished.”
Reply "That’s alright.”
1578 "When did you leave Portugal?”
Reply "We left Portugal I think on the seventeenth. It was a Thursday so it was two weeks to the day after, with Matt and Rachael and Jane and our kids. I think Diane maybe came to the airport with us although she took a different flight and we flew back to Gatwick where our cars were and Dianne flew back to either Bedford or East Midlands, somewhere nearer, nearer for her.”
1578 "How many times did you meet Kate and Gerry? I think this is in the interim period between Madeleine going missing…”
01:21:53 Reply "Yeah, and…”
1578 "And you leaving Portugal.”
Reply "I think I remember struggling with this one the other day, err we certainly saw them you know usually several times a day. As time went on it actually got a little less because they were involved in so many other things. Err we saw them at the Police station the next day err there was, I know there was a lot of coming and going from the Police station there. I would have said we generally saw them every day or at least one of them at high tea because the kids always generally went to this, and usually once or twice a day you know outside of that, but occasionally it could have been less, you know I think they ended up doing, they ended up doing so much and they had their family err and to some extent the family took over where we were in the first few days in that we were around a lot more for them and as more and more family came you know they, they, you know we didn’t see them as much. We went down to the church service there was a number of visits both planned and unplanned. Err and you know we often went with them to the (inaudible) err but as I said on Tuesday by the time it came to you know when we were due to go, I, I mean I think we’d, we’d served our purpose in terms of supporting them and giving our statements to the Police and we were seeing them less and less and they were functioning, they were much better in themselves err more positive, they had things to do, which has been their criticism but actually I think anyone who’s in that situation if you don’t keep yourself busy living then you know, get busy dying isn’t it, so.”
01:23:39 1578 "Do you think they were showing a normal behaviour for parents who had lost a child?”
Reply "Err in my mind, as I think I’ve explained this, they went through unimaginable grief that no one, you wouldn’t wish on your worst enemy. They then, with help improved but you know, behind closed doors on many, many occasions down in the church you know just broken hearted, so yes. Yes, absolutely yes, and anyone who says they didn’t can get lost.”
1578 "During the holidays did you happen to see Kate and Gerry talking with someone unknown?”
Reply "Err no, I, I would see, Gerry, Gerry’s one of these people that can walk up to a stranger and have their life story extracted from them within ten minutes and then tell you oh yeah he’s from here and blah, blah, blah he’s a very, very confident guy, and he was talking to other members of the err you know other visiting guests who I may not necessarily have known but at least who I recognised as visiting guests. I didn’t see him talking to anyone who didn’t seem to be part of the infrastructure or, or, or visiting the complex, you know I didn’t think who the hell’s that or whether he’s been accosted by someone.”
1578 "Yeah.”
Reply "Or so on and so forth.”
01:25:05 1578 "Did you see Kate and Gerry inside a car during the holidays?
Reply "Err no not during the holiday err you know obviously the hire car err business is well known, I, I mean, I don’t think there was any of us had a car err or saw, or there was any access to a car until sort of Gerry’s family all came, Gerry’s family had come over and hired a car when they came. So there was a car around after that but I don’t actually particularly remember err much about Kate and Gerry using it, I think on a couple of occasions, if I think closely, I think they may have driven down to the church just to try and keep the, the, the crowds and things off them. Err but certainly in terms of, the quote “holiday”, that was, you know they didn’t not have a car.”
1578 "And finally, is there any supplementary explanation that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth?”
Reply "No, I just, you know it’s difficult I mean we’ve been very grateful to, to, to go though all of this again but even thinking back to our kind of collect, our collective knowledge of the, of the events, it doesn’t jump, there isn’t something that jumps out and says you know these people were there watching us and we’re convinced, we’re convinced that to have done this someone needed to be well aware of, of our arrangements in the evening and over and above that I think someone needed to be well aware of the access, the ease of access to Kate and Gerry’s flat but you don’t, I can’t, I can’t point the finger in any direction. You know we’ve had our suspicions, we’ve kind of thought you know could it have been somebody within the, within the complex, could it be one of the waiters you know even just watching us and tipping someone off but, but you know these are just the natural thoughts about, about trying to work it out. There’s no, there’s no information that says you know that, that gives us a real direction. The only thing that is absolutely you know sort of crystal in Jane’s mind and certainly in mine as her partner is that what she witnessed is prob, is almost certainly fundamental to Madeleine’s disappearance and its just a real, I’m not gonna say a crying shame, but that kind of sounds almost a bit too pathetic you know but it just seems such a great pity that that information appears at least in the popular, popular press to have been entirely pooh-poohed and dismissed as, as, as a, as irrelevant, that’s, I’m sure isn’t what the investigational line over it is in totality but that is the only one sort of grasp, thing that you can grasp and say that fits in with it.”
01:28:11 1578 "Just very, very briefly Russ or as long as you want it to last of course, err what about Madeleine as a, as a person?”
Reply "Yeah, well I can’t, I can’t confess to knowing Madeleine well I mean that’s fair enough, we didn’t, we saw her intermittently, birthdays, barbeques, but she was a, on the occasions I’ve met her she was happy, bubbly, err relatively headstrong on previous meetings actually she seemed to have mellowed a little bit when we went on holiday, you know a girl, you know a little girl full of, full of life, full of beans, and err you know E**a and her, we hadn’t seen much of each other, they were just having a wonderful time together you know they’re so similar in age err I think that’s all I can say. She just appeared to be a you know that time of life is gorgeous isn’t it you know they’re, they’re in, they’re, you know they’re, they’ve not been sullied by school and lots of other external influences you know they’re still you know just in, they’re speaking, they’re developing personality and nothing about Madeleine would suggest, which I presume the implication here is, that she was having an unhappy life, that she was being neglected or that she was being you know brought up in a, in a, in a threatening or a dangerous environment, you know she was you know just a you know normal, happy four year, you know three year old girl.”
01:29:46 1578 "Do you think she would have gone readily with a stranger?”
Reply "Err no I don’t, I don’t think so, err she was, she was, she was certainly more confident than my E**a, but you know I think if you look at the gene pool, me and Jane are slightly more kind of err sort of reticent sort of people and certainly you know Gerry and to a lesser extent Kate are certainly more slightly more extrovert so she’s coming from, she’s coming from an extrovert background but I don’t think just because you come from an extrovert background means that you’re, you’re, you’re fanciful and, and necessarily will sort of dismiss risk even as a kid. My E**a you know would, would, wouldn’t say boo to a goose you know when even a relative comes to the house and she’ll kind of hold your leg for a little while and I think Madeleine’s maybe not as shy as E**a but from, from the brief meetings they had I don’t think she, she came across as a, as a reckless child who just sort of disappeared you know was always out the gate of the house or anything like that you know she was always in the house, she didn’t do anything daft. But I think that’s about all I can say if I’m honest.”
1578 "Are you aware if she was aware of stranger danger for example?”
Reply "I don’t think I would, you know I would err necessarily know enough about what Kate and Gerry had said to her to say that but as I say she didn’t come across as, she came across as buoyant and err outgoing and confident but not necessa, but not as reckless you know, she didn’t sort of put herself in physical danger you know she wasn’t kind of a kid on top of the swing who’d just jump off and (inaudible) and that sort of thing so…”
01:31:23 1578 "Right. That’s all for the moment, if you can just bare with me a few minutes, I’ll just go and have a quick chat with colleagues.”

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic165.html

Subject: Group timeline after Madeleine's disappearance


Date:14-08-2007


Dear Sirs,

This report contains a summary of the 'timeline' that shows the movements of the group after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from apartment G5A in the Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz on 3rd May 2007. It is centred on the McCann family and the group of friends who travelled with them on holiday to Portugal.

This 'timeline' was created based upon translations of statements made be elements of the group to the Portuguese police, from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group and by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner, from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police and from questioning carried out at that time.

At about 22.00 when Kate Healy returned to the apartment to check on the children, the rest of the group were at the Tapas Bar/Restaurant except for Jane Tanner, who was in her apartment G5D as, Evie, one of her children was unwell.

When Kate discovered that her daughter Madeleine was not in the apartment (G5A) she ran back to the Tapas Bar to alert the rest of the group.
Dianne Webster remained at the table whilst all the others rushed to the apartment. Gerry McCann and Kate Healy were the first to return to their apartment, where Kate had left the patio doors completely open and the twins were fast asleep in their beds.

Gerald searched the apartment and stated that the window of the children's bedroom was open and the shutter raised. He checked the shutter before continuing to search outside.

All the men from the group began to search the immediate area.

David Payne ran from the McCann's apartment towards the Millennium area. Then he turned in the direction of the church. He searched the rocky areas of the beach/coast and checked the stands and boats. He then returned to the Ocean Club reception, passing the Millennium area. David then checked the area around the walls together with Matthew Oldfield.


Russell O'Brien was in the McCann's apartment for a moment only, rushing out to search the perimeter of the apartment. Then he went to look for Madeleine with Matthew Oldfield. They went in the direction of the beach. He searched the perimeter of the tennis courts and the paths leading to the beach. Russell searched the gardens and all of the surrounding area. He searched the eastern part of the beach, zigzagging back along the roads to the McCann's apartment. All the time more people were joining in the search and Russell knew the police had been contacted.
Afterwards he searched the adjacent apartments to the east of Kate and Gerry along the Rua da Ramalhete and more apartments to the east. On some occasions David Payne was with him.

When Matthew saw that Madeleine was not in the apartment, he went to the 24 hours reception to ask them to telephone the police. Matthew spent most of the night searching the neighbouring areas for Madeleine without success. Matthew searched the road between the apartment and the Creche. He searched between the apartment and the Millennium restaurant, also along the beach and finally a cemetery as well as the road leading back to the apartment. Part of this search was carried out with David Payne and Russell O'Brien and part was carried out alone. Matthew talked to an Indian insurance salesman and saw Nathan, the director of the beach concession.

Fiona Payne was the only woman from the group to help in the searches. Fiona searched the periphery of the complex ' one search, which she made alone. When she returned she spent the rest of the night with Kate.

After waiting at the restaurant table for five minutes, Dianne Webster went to the McCann's apartment where she entered the children's bedroom and saw Kate with the twins. Kate insisted on the fact that the window and shutters were open when she saw the children, Dianne went outside to see if she could raise the shutter from the outside and found it to be impossible. Dianne stayed in the McCann's apartment for about 5 minutes and then returned to the restaurant to fetch her bag, the McCann's camera and the baby monitor. She then immediately returned to the McCann's apartment. Gerry and Kate were in the apartment as well as Fiona. Fiona asked Dianne to stay with Lily and Scarlet to check that they were ok. Dianne returned to the Payne apartment and stayed there for the rest of the night.

Rachel Mampilly went to see her own daughter before going to meet Jane in her apartment. When they talked Jane told her that when she had gone to check on the children she saw Gerry and Jez talking together as well as a man carrying a child. Jane told Rachel that she had not said anything at the time because nobody knew that Madeleine had gone missing and she had not seen the child's face.


Summary

It is difficult to confirm where all the elements were in the minutes/ hours after the discovery that Madeleine was missing. It appears that most of the women remained within or near the apartments, Fiona Payne left and searched around the complex, before returning to the McCann's apartment where she stayed with Kate. Then Emma Knights (client support director) searched the beach area and asked Kate what Madeleine had been wearing. Shortly afterwards Emma returned to the McCann's apartment and stayed with Kate.

The men's movements, however, are more difficult to pinpoint.

Gerald was seen and spoken to by Neil Berry and Raj Malu. They heard him calling for Madeleine when they were sitting on Neil's balcony, not far from the McCann's apartment. They both went down to talk to Gerald and helped in the search.

Both David Payne and Matthew Oldfield were seen by Emma Knights when she was on her way to the beach, the search area to which she was assigned by Lyndsey Johnson (child care director and search coordinator).

At about 01.00 Matthew was with John Hill (resort manager) when they knocked on Jeremy Wilkins's door to ask if he had seen anything.

At about 23.30 a white fair haired man aged about 30, one of the friends of the McCann group was seen by Valerie Kerr and her family when he asked them if they had seen Madeleine. They were near to the chapel. Valerie and Laura returned to their apartment, changed clothes and went to help with the search.


Conclusion

In the confusion following the disappearance of Madeleine it would be possible that one of the men or Fiona Payne 'escaped' to join in the searches again later.

DAVID PAYNE

then Kate came back just after ten o’ clock, you know absolutely distraught err you know just, you know her face I’ll never forget. It was a face of someone’s child who had been taken and you know and very clearly said she’s gone, she’s you know, she’s gone, you know and there was a disbelief on our face you know ah you know you must be mistaken, what, and then you know just looking at her we just all err left the table, rushed over to her and as we were walking up towards the flat she said err you know they’ve taken her and it was, you know, and I know there’s been a controversy about what was actually said but you know that is very accurately what had been said. Like I say, as I say you know you could just never forget her face and those words, and err as we were, you know, approaching their apartment I was just saying to Kate, I said well look how do you know that is the case, and err you know again I, I can’t remember the exact words then, but I was very interested in finding what the state of the apartment was like when she’d got there to see who’d left err doors open or etcetera. And from my point of view you know the things that were, I think it was really pertinent to me was that there was two, there was two gates on the back entrance from that apartment. There’s the gate which is immediately bring, you know brings you on to the err the road and then there was another child gate, that was at the top and I, you know, and given the fact that the front door was shut I was just saying well what was the state of those two gates, were those gates open when you went up or were they shut, and she was adamant that those two gates were shut. Well you know there was two possibilities, she’d either been taken or she’d wandered off, no child is gonna wander off and shut two gates behind them so at that moment I knew, although I didn’t want to believe it, but I knew that she’d been abducted. Then you know obviously pretty much I think, you know, people that pretty much the same as me you know it’s a shock, you know ah because you’re, you know, you’re still not wanting to believe what, what the obvious is and you know so we, you know we, we went, you know went to the apartment err you know and I didn’t actually enter too much into the room but I walked to the edge and you know there was, you know the twins were in their cots, err they were in you know parallel, there was you know I could see, you know I think they were much further into the room but you know I could see Madeleine’s bed and then you know it was just like all hell broke loose. You know we, you know we didn’t know what to do, we went running around you know err the safety of my own you know children, you know I started, you wanted to check that your own two are alright so I, some say I ran up to our apartment and checked they were alright. Dianne had err had said, Fiona had asked Dianne to stay at the table, at the Tapas just in case err you know Madeleine wandered by or you know and thought that was the best place and I say at some stage I went back and asked Dianne to just, could you go and stay with the children. I did a sweep of the err the pool err and the area you know immediately around err the Ocean Club, then met up with Matt and err Russell and you know I remember saying right what, you know, what we gonna do and Matt was saying right we’ve gotta try and be you know systematic here err you know, right if you, you want to go off in that area and I’ll go down to the Ocean Club reception and you know ask them to call the Police and so you know I, I started venturing up towards the err Millennium where we’d eaten and it was just so quiet and there was nothing going on that way and I just thought oh you know, and I again I was just building up hope that she’d ran off err you know I actually went on a search and I went down past the Supermarket, I went down towards the err seafront, you know went along the whole length of the err beach looking under you know err beach huts and etcetera, just you know and shouting Madeleine, any people that we saw we explained, but also in the melee there was err other people err sorry going back to the apartment so was popping in just to you know, to see what’s happening, had the Police arrived err you know just to see who was, you know, thinking that some, you know, body would take charge of the situation and err Mark Warner staff had err grouped together and they were err you know trying to help the situation. Err one of the Mark Warner err ladies was staying with, in the apartment with err with Kate, you know Fiona stayed there, there was people you know popping in and out. There was a lady I think who I believe she came from the flat who ended up, you know, coming in towards their apartment as offering help and you know the next recollection really is that you know the Police, there was two Policemen who err arrived who I believe were from the GNR, err you know it felt you know quite some time before they got there, err I think there was a language barrier, the err one of the receptionists from the Tapas area, Sylvia, she was trying, actually no it wasn’t Sylvia, it was the lady, one of the ladies who we, you know, I can’t remember her name, who was trying to communicate you know between us and we were trying to convey that she’s been abducted and we, we got a computer err printer, we’d got a picture of Madeleine so that it could be distributed as quickly as possible. We were trying to impress the importance to the, to the err two Policemen err that you know that she’d been abducted, that you need to close off all the roads and that you know, that this is an abduction and you know at that was basically the sequence of events up to that stage. Err we then you know, did some more searching, went around, you know, Mark Warner staff, went to different areas just, I didn’t know whether she’d ran off and, you know obviously nothing, you know nothing transpired and then as time lapsed then there was some Police from err Portimão arrived, two plain clothed Police, there was some other Police in the background, whether they were from Portugal I don’t know, you know they were just hanging back and then err the two Portuguese err Detectives wanted to you know have time with Kate and Gerry and just specifically question them. Err you know I made err a phone call at some stage in the evening to err Fiona’s dad back in the UK who I’ve got a lot of respect for and has given me very, a lot of very good advice because you know you certainly would never have believe that you will find yourself in a situation err like this and you know there was very able people who were there, you know. Everybody who was out there you know was very responsible and people that I would turn to but under the circumstances I don’t think anyone functions err particularly anywhere near a hundred percent and you know just looking to try and get some advice from someone outside the situation because you know we just didn’t feel that we could get this message across to err to anybody that she had been abducted.”
1485 "Yeah.”
00:17:28 Reply "Err so then you know the Police were with err you know Kate and Gerry, you know chatting to them and you know looking at the apartment, etcetera, and they, you know I felt that they had been probably around for about an hour and then Matt met up with err with Kate and Gerry after. Me and Gerry you know I’m not sure what time it was, it was you know between three and four o’ clock when, again looking for her. We went down err through past the Ocean Club reception, we went down err to the beach and in between all this you know Kate and Gerry were just breaking down you know just their behaviour was, you know was never questioned or did I ever think there was anything strange about you know their behaviour and how they would, they would act, you know in such a set of circumstances and you know Gerry’s a very stoical person and you know, I think you know its the way that he’s conducted himself over the past few months you know, and he broke down with me on the front, you know. You know just very obviously a broken man, and you know we spent some time you know, not long, I was trying my best to console him, we went back then to the err the apartment, you know it’s, by around about four, four thirty in the morning you know there was nothing else that you know that we could do. The Police had left err the twins had been, at this stage, moved into err into our apartment, and we made beds up on the floor for Kate and Gerry in our apartment and we must have, you know, err gone into bedrooms around about you know four, four thirty around that time. We err slept for a couple of hours, we woke up to find that you know Kate and Gerry had already been out looking you know err for Madeleine err and then we were obviously waiting for things to happen, you know, quite frustrated, and err you know and then certain people arrived outside again you know from, from the err Police and err at that stage err yeah I, I was talking with Robert MURAT. He was err somebody that I would not a hundred percent say that I saw the night before but there was somebody who was also err who was translating for us that evening who I you know briefly chatted to, stood next to a Policeman, that I you know thought to be Robert MURAT but I would never say conclusively that that was Robert MURAT. And then but I just said I’m not, in my mind, I’m not dealing with him I’m getting much better with the other lady you know because they were just, you know pontificating around the area and I just wanted direct answers I didn’t want someone just talking generally around the situation. And then err so there’s me and Kate, we were just waiting outside seeing what was happening and err so then as I say Robert MURAT introduced himself, he said he was err you know somebody who’s re, you know, was living out there, was originally from the UK, that he’d got a daughter who was a very similar age to Madeleine and that they looked very similar. He said that he’d been involved with something err you know major back, back home err I thought he said Norfolk but again I’m not a hundred percent sure on that, and you know at this stage, you know I, there was no, he was very over familiar and wanted to be helping the situation and that’s all I would say, I wouldn’t say any more than that. And then the err Police you know it transpired that they were going to interview us and you know so then we, we ended up going to the station. I was with Kate, err there was Gerry, err Matt, you know I can’t be a hundred percent else, sure who was there, and you know so I always spent quite a lot of time with Kate during the hours of, of err Friday and again you know everything that she was like, you know, was someone whose daughter had been taken. You know we were, and he, we were sat outside err one of the rooms err where they had err like TV footage coming in from I don’t know where, and there’s a story coming back that there had been a sighting of Madeleine at one of the petrol stations err you know Kate was eager, you know wanted to know more about, you know where have you seen her you know.”
1485 "Yeah.”
00:22:37 Reply "It was just…”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "It was just, you know, there was, there just no, there was nothing that she did that I thought was unlike someone who had not had their child abducted and there was everything that I’d expect to be.”
1485 "The way she reacted?”
Reply "The way she reacted err you know obviously we were, we were interviewed that, that day and you know we had very little sleep, you know we were very tired, the interviews, and that’s my real recollections of that.”
1485 "That period. Anything else?”
Reply "Err, with any specifics prompts or?”
1485 "No, just making sure that you know…”
Reply "Yeah.”
1485 "You’ve done, you’ve remembered everything you possibly can that’s all.”
Reply "Yeah. I’m sure if I chatted more to you I’d probably remember more.”



When Jane came back there was certainly nothing that she said that err you know led us to be worried at that particular stage, you know, the conversation was, was again, was you know oh E**e’s okay and it was a sort of shame that they you know, the situation there with E**e. Err and you know the, the jokes that have been going on earlier and err you know just, yeah generally nothing, nothing really stood out...”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "Had happened, err there was, you know nothing.”
00:54:03 1485 "The fact that Jane had come back having seen a male carrying a child.”
Reply "Mm.”
1485 "Could you introduce that within your recollection?”
Reply "I can, err it was never mentioned at that table when she came back, err when we went, you know, looking for Madeleine after err Fiona told me that she’d, you know, mentioned this to Fiona and you know so it’s, obviously Fiona’s statement’s probably more important from this point of view exactly what she said about it.”
1485 "Yeah, yeah.”
Reply "But I know from Fiona that this was mentioned and I think it was in the context that she was really worried saying anything to Kate to, to upset her which you know looking from, from people observing out, in at this, they’ll probably think well hang on, you think that someone’s just seen, but you know, again, it was a, a resort where there was a lot of children around err very, it’s a small friendly place and she just thought it was one of the parents who you know was perhaps, you know they’d be staying in one apartment and were transferring their child back to another apartment.”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "And really didn’t think twice about it at the time and that’s why it wasn’t mentioned then. But she definitely mentioned it to me you know after Madeleine had been abducted and you know on the, the following day before she’d actually mentioned it to Kate and there was a, a newspaper report, I think it was in the Telegraph err certainly one of the newspapers anyway, that was sort of describing err Madeleine’s pyjamas and, and err Jane said that’s not right, how did they get that, well she said you know, that in, I don’t know how they get that information anyway, my recollections were this was what she was wearing and described it you know differently you know to what the, the, the press had, and that was before she’d even seen Kate so you know, the strength of that argument is just absolutely overwhelming, you know given the time frame err you know of when Madeleine must have gone, gone, that you know and for her to have described in detail the pull ups at the bottom of the pyjamas err you know the colours, you know and the timing is just, you know well, so.”
00:56:37 1485 "How did she describe the child to you?”
Reply "Err, the, from, again my, my recollection was more about the, the description of the pyjamas not fitting in with the description of the newspaper and if I was to say that she was carrying the child you know like this, rather than like, like that then, you know because again this is something that we’ve talked about, you know, if she was abducted, you know, sorry if you were carrying your own child any distance, to actually carry a child like so is, it’s hard work. You know, it’s much easier to carry a child like this and it’s easier to keep them asleep and support their head etcetera. So yeah that’s something we’ve chatted about since and you know I could say oh yes I’m a hundred percent sure she said that, that they were carrying the child like that, but I, again, I wouldn’t be, be accurate. All I can say is accurately I remember there was a, the err the discrepancy with the pyjamas and that, you know, and then she kept coming back to the turn ups which you know, which is very unique about the err you know, the pyjamas so that was, you know, you’re in shock, you can’t believe what’s happened, you know, you’re, you’re ninety nine, point nine, nine, nine percent sure that this is what’s happened but you’re still not wanting to believe what’s happened.”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "But you know and then you’re looking for information to, to try and fit in with what you thinks happened and then you know when, when we knew that we just thought, you know, that is it, that is who’s taken her. Err you know and again, just for the record, I mean Jane, I’ve known Jane for a few years, you know, she’s an extremely strong character, she’s you know very reliable and you know she speaks her own mind and you know, and if that’s what she has seen then you know I’m a hundred percent sure that that’s what she’s seen.”
00:58:41 1485 "Okay. Just in relation to, the reason why I ask you that is because Jane has saw what she’s saw and then she’s come back to the table and then you know one of the points I was trying to raise with you as well was did you notice anything different in her demeanour throughout the rest of the evening before Kate raised the alarm?”
Reply "Err not, not really I mean, as I say my general feeling was about the problems that they were having you know, it’s difficult, you know err one of them was there and then the other one was going and err you know just the logistics of the situation, you know where I was actually sat, I wasn’t directly sat in a position that I was probably gonna chat to Jane therefore you know, the people who were immediately round me were the people more likely I’d chat to rather than chatting across, you know, quite a reasonable size table. Err so I don’t, you know I don’t really think, you know I, I noticed anything different about Jane but whether, you know, there was or there wasn’t perhaps I wasn’t in the best position there to, to comment that, as I say my recollections were more of the logistics, apart from with E**e not being well.”
1485 "Yeah. Right, and again you’ve discussed what happened once Kate had turned up and the exact words that Kate had said.”
Reply "Mm.”
1485 "Once the alarm had been raised you said that you all got up and its, with the exception of Dianne, everybody ran to the assistance.”
Reply "Yeah.”
1485 "Exactly what did you do?”
Reply "Err we, you know, we ran up err to the apartment, you know, with, with err you know Kate and Gerry err and you know for me, I just wanted to know, as I say, about the access to the apartment, were those gates open, err because in my mind was that if the front door was shut there was no, you know there won’t be, you know there was no way that she could have wandered out that way and nor would they have gained access in that way. Err also obviously the, the, the issue with the, the shutters had been raised, was brought up err you know on the way up as well and then I was asking about the gates being shut at that back and she said well both gates you know were shut, so in my mind, you know, that had ruled it out that Madeleine had err had wandered off. Err you know, Madeleine’s err, you know, was a very bright child and you know it would just seem so inconceivable that she would have wandered off you know, especially you know, when she was sleepy you know, we put that argument forward, but then you know sleeping chil, sleepy children you know don’t put, shut the doors you know behind them and child gates, you know, so, so that was my initial thoughts err and again you know we, we, I’m sure we went into the apartment, just looked and you know, incredulously you know well where, err where could she be, you know, you know we just looked in the obvious err places and then err you know obviously Kate and Gerry were just completely, you know, hysterical err you know at this stage. Err and then we just, you know then we went to do the sweeps around the place and I said, as I said before, I went up to look at our apartment to check, check the girls were alright and you know, and the actual order that this all happened, you know, it’s just err a complete eye opener up for us to see you know what other unfor, unfortunate people have been through just to what a destabilising effect, you know, that circumstances has on you or, and you know I, I think most people had a, you know, idea of, pretty exactly what happened that day leaving but you know after that I think people find it really difficult generally to say exactly what they did and when. Err but as I say we went err we went to the apartment and had a look round and then err I had a look quite earlier on to see err whether the, err girls were alright. I then at some stage went back to see Dianne and say look can you just leave the table, just go back to the apartment and then I had the sweep around the swimming pool where the, err the kiddies pool is, I went to, I just had a quick look at the tennis courts and just basically swept around the, the area just to make, make sure you know that, ah this can’t, can’t be what’s happened, she must have you know, you just don’t want to weigh up that option, it just wasn’t an option that could have happened but you knew it had happened and err, and then as I say we spoke, me, Matt and Russell, right come on we’ve got to have a bit more structure to this, err you know, I’ll, I’ll you know so he went off down to the Police Station and you know, you know we waited as I say for the Police to arrive and we, our, I think it was in between them arriving or when they arrived that I then went down and did that sweep of you know, right down past the Supermarket err going slightly to the side and then onto the front past where the church is at the bottom. I looked, you know I say I looked in all the rocks and you know just went along the whole beach shouting out and identifying people. Err the, I say, the Mark Warner people they were around there, we, you know as I say we also at a very early stage we knew it was important that we got a picture of Madeleine just to show people, whether it be local, but, but we were also imploring the err the GNR to you know close down and circulate this picture, err and that was, you know that was something that Mark Warner team helped us set up just in the, you know the Tapas bit there.”
1485 "Yeah.”
01:04:57 Reply "Err then we were popping in and out of the apartment err you know having conversations with Kate and Gerry and err you know they were in communication with people back home err you know Gerry was you know speaking to family, they were chatting to err Paul’s the priest who married them and Kate was chatting to her mum you know err and it was just all kicking off around really.”
1485 "You know when you went into their apartment, what was the scene like? I mean where was Kate and Gerry?”
Reply "Err (sighs) I mean with, with err, you know I, Kate’s obviously very good friends with err Fiona and I’m, you know, very good friends with Gerry so more likely I’d have probably been with Gerry going through the options of what happened, or you know where could she be and what, what’s gone on here. Err you know trying to work out err what had actually happened err so I, I, you know we all went up to the apartment pretty much together. I think, I don’t know what, whether the other people came in or not, I can only remember me, Fiona, Kate and Gerry predominantly and the err lady from Mark Warner err who were the main people who were in the apartment. Err yeah I certainly went into err the doorway of that, the room where all the children were staying you know and Sean and Amelie were still you know sleeping, err you know and this is something that’s, you know, we’ve all kind of discussed you know amongst all the melee that was kicking off they were just sleeping so, you know, contently. Err and then you know the other area, the other areas I remember going into Kate and Gerry’s err bedroom with Gerry and he’d perhaps you know fling a cupboard open and just have a look and, ah you know and just shut the door and you know in a vein, desperate hope that she might have been err you know in, in the wardrobe or something, and then he, you know flung him, flung himself on the floor and just you know kicking the floor and just with, you know, she’s gone, she’s gone, err and then as I say, I, I, after that I can’t really say exactly, you know. We kept meeting up at stages in the evening to, to try and appraise the situation and you know what shall we do, err.”
01:07:44 1485 "Did you hear Kate say to Gerry they’ve let her down?”
Reply "Err, it’s a comment that I’ve heard her say since and you know, I can’t say that I specifically heard her say it that night. Err but you know, so many emotions are flying through your mind at that stage and you know certainly guilt was going through you know their mind, err because it, you know, everyone was like questioning themselves, you know, about you know what had happened and you know I know that she certainly was, those comments that she made along the lines of guilt for err you know, you know not being there for her, without a doubt, but specifically that phrase I wouldn’t, you know I can’t recall her saying that but again, it’s just a general underlying you know nature of what she was saying but it was along the lines that she, you know she had let her down, that you know when she, err again whether it was that night or another night she said well you know when she needed us we weren’t there for her, you know and that was, you know the general kind of things that she was implying.”
1485 "Yeah, did she say that on the night then?”
01:09:04 Reply "Err I say I don’t know, I know that she said those things.”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "Or implied those things but I can’t tell you exactly what the phrases were that she used but you know she felt that they weren’t there for the biggest time in her life when they needed her.”
1485 "Yeah. Did Fiona tell you that Kate had told her that Madeleine had woke up the night before?”
Reply "Yeah.”
1485 "On that night?”
Reply "Err I’m sure Fiona did tell me that night err and said that you know she’d had a, a, you know that Madeleine had you know woke, had been crying the night before and err you know this was just, and that she’d mentioned it to her and you know do you think we should be doing anything err differently, err and you know Fiona mentioned that conversation and I’m sure, I’m pretty sure it was that night err that she brought it up. Err its, you know I, do you try and make people feel better because you think, you know, who, who in the world would have thought this would have happened to anyone, you know, it just doesn’t happen to you.”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "Certainly and you know the last case of a child going missing like this was you know ten years plus, you know, in Corfu, and so you know when, when your child’s been crying, whether they you know they’ve have a bad nightmare or you know they’ve, you know they’ve perhaps have had a dream and they’re crying a bit and you try and you know, and that’s what you know we were saying to Kate really, you know those were the things that go through your mind.”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "Rather than think ah well perhaps someone’s tried to get into the apartment, you know, but then you look back and then the enormity of what you said does, you know gain momentum. Err that’s it.”



Hopefully it should be the last. Once again a series of questions, a lot of open questions, take your time in answering and give me as thorough answer as possible.”
Reply "Okay.”
1485 "Right, I just, before I move on I just need to refer back to the last interview just to clarify a couple of points.”
Reply "Okay.”
00:01:05 1485 "One of the points is, do you recall you told me that when Kate had come back to the Tapas and said…”
Reply "Yeah.”
1485 "What had happened.”
Reply "Yes.”
1485 "You’d said that, you referred to some sort of, her face, you said the look on her face…”
Reply "Yeah.”
1485 "Was, can you remember what you said?”
Reply "Err, how did I describe, I mean just you know the, it was just a haunting face of someone who’s you know discovered what she discovered.”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "It was just, you know, if you meet Kate now, you know, you can see it, you can just see it in her eyes still. Err, I mean, the only other way to put it, you know, there’s something missing from her life.”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "But it was just, you know, the grief and the horror in that face, you know.”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "It was just err I’ll just never forget it.”1
1485 "Yeah. But there was a specific, I mean I’ll, I can probably look at the video at a later stage.”
Reply "Yes.”
1485 "And I just wonder whether you can remember what you said? It was quite impactive what you said.”
00:02:16 Reply "Err, sorry.”
1485 "No? That’s okay. Can you recall shortly after that she went running off to the apartment block and she was saying they’ve taken her?”
Reply "Mm.”
1485 "Is that what you said?”
Reply "Mm, yes.”
1485 "She’s taken, they’ve taken her?”
Reply "She, you know, obviously there’s what we’ve talked about when, you know, it’s portrayed in the press about what she said, they’ve taken her, and that was definitely not, and that was, you know, or unanimous across everyone we’d all said that was not what she first of all said, you know, she’s gone was you know the first words that she said.”
1485 "She first said that she’s gone?”
Reply "She’s gone.”
1485 "And then the second time she said?”
Reply "And then, I mean, and then as we were walking up, err and there’s you know the exchange of conversation was you know, was they’ve taken her.”



You mentioned early on, on the last interview as well, about a photo. You spoke brief about a photo you’d shown, you’d shown a photo.”
Reply "Oh yes, I mean…”
1485 "Where did that come from?”
Reply "Err where did the photo come from? That’s a very good question, err I’m not sure whether it was from Gerry’s digital camera or one of the digital cameras that we had there from my recollection. Err but you know, it was, sorry I can’t, I can’t remember exactly. I seem to remember it was one of the digital cameras but that’s about as far as it...”
1485 "Can you remember the pose in which Madeleine was on the photo?”
Reply "Err I can’t, no.”
1485 "Did you see the photo?”
Reply "Err I did, yes. I mean Russell err was probably the most instrumental in that side that we, you know he’s very good with computers and setting that side up, so he specifically went off err you know to do that. Err you know, I mean we kind of identified early like you know I have, I have seen the picture and, but sorry I can’t remember it.”
00:07:03 1485 "Okay.”
Reply "But Russell was, I say, you know that was where his strengths was and he went down trying to link up the computers and was good at that kind of (inaudible).”
1485 "Where did the com, where did they link the computer up?”
Reply "Err the err originally I thought it had been done in the reception at the Ocean Club, not the Tapas bar, but then I realised it was actually the Tapas bar, err sorry the other reception as you walk through into the Tapas complex err there’s a room just on the right there err they’d got a computer and a printer there err that’s how they sorted it out.”
1485 "And Russell did that?”
Reply "Russell did that yes.”
1485 "Was that at Gerry’s request?”
Reply "My, well it might have been Gerry’s or mine, it was something that we, you know, we, you know you’re trying to think what we should do in the circumstances and we thought right you know a picture, we’ve gotta get a picture out because you know everybody didn’t know who Madeleine was so if people were searching for her they needed a picture to identify her, but we, you know, we were also convinced that you know she’d been taken and there was a high chance that someone had got transport to take her, given the way that we thought you know she’d been carried off and err you know, we, well if, if, the worst scenario if there was, if someone was gonna move Madeleine away from that area, you know we wanted the, to try and get the, err, the area secured. Therefore they would need a picture to see who, to identify her so it was something that we were, those, those two things we were, you know keen at trying to secure that, you know, the picture was available and err the, you know the roads were closed down in the surrounding areas.”
00:08:40 1485 "How many photos were there?”
Reply "Err again, I don’t, I didn’t see all the photos but I know there was at least ten that were printed off, but whether there was more than that I couldn’t say but I know that there was at least ten available.”
1485 "And they were all of Madeleine?”
Reply "They were.”
1485 "Were they all the same pictures?”
Reply "Err again, I would have to say I think so, I didn’t see all the copies.”
1485 "Okay.”
Reply "But I know that’s what, you know, Russell said, again, I think.”
1485 "Right and do you know where they all went”?
Reply "I don’t know.”
1485 "Okay. Did you take any photos on the night at the Tapas bar?”
Reply "No I didn’t.”
1485 "Did anybody take any photos?”
Reply "Err…”
1485 "Before Kate obviously raised the alarm.”
Reply "Not that I’m aware of. There wasn’t, normally we’re quite snap happy but err we’ve only got a few pictures from the second of May, then the third of May and then you know a few days until err so there wasn’t a great deal of pictures being taken err you know obviously there was a few here and there, Jane’s quite keen on photography, I know she takes some nice pictures and I’d taken some in the play area on the, the, err the night before and we’ve also got pictures of the, the afternoon from the beach and from the restaurant and then the play area again and there’s some pictures of us playing tennis err with the times on, so you know that’s about the last pictures that I can recall. I’ve got our pictures and I’ve got Dianne’s pictures but I’ve certainly not seen anybody else’s err completely.”
00:10:35 1485 "What about the night before? The Wednesday night, did you take any pictures, were any pictures taken then? Or did you see any pictures being taken then?”
Reply "In the evening?”
1485 "Yeah, because I understand that you stayed later on the Wednesday night.”
Reply "We did, yes, err the pictures that I’ve got, there are some pictures on one of the evenings and I can’t say which evening that was.”
1485 "Your camera should…”
Reply "My cameras will have the…”
1485 "It’ll have…”
Reply "It’ll have the date on there.”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "But I, you know I can’t remember which evening, I thought it was earlier on in the week but err but again it wasn’t, it wasn’t, you know in the evenings wasn’t generally camera time, I don’t think people were that bothered really in the evening and that taking pictures, it wasn’t...”
1485 "Because it would have all pictures of you huddled together and...”
Reply "Well it would yeah.”
1485 "(Inaudible).”
Reply "That was it yeah. I mean as I say there’s only like two or three pictures I think we’ve got from the evening.”


Moving on then to the time that you, when you say after the alarm was raised you went into the MCCANN’S apartment. Can you describe the layout of the apartment?”
Reply "If you’re going in through the patio doors you walk directly into the, err the living, you know, lounge space. Then if you’re going, walking through the apartment towards the front door you have the kitchen on the, err right, which was a small kitchen, which was boxed off from the rest of err open plan living space. If you were walking from the patio doors into the apartment and you were walking towards the front door and turn left you would go towards the bedroom areas. Directly in front of you, you had the bathroom err as you were looking at the bathroom the door to the left would be the, the room where Kate and Gerry stayed and the door to the right was err where the children were sleeping. Err you know there was the double bed in the err Kate and Gerry’s room and as you went into err Sean and Amelie’s room there was a bed up against the far wall where there was the, you know, was the window. There was another bed parallel to that but across the other side of the room, err along the wall where the door is where you walked into the apartment. In between the two parallel beds was the, err two cots also parallel with the space err between the two of them, and obviously the twins were sleeping in the err cots and then err Madeleine was on the bed which was nearest the door that you walked in to get in there.”
1485 "Okay. When you went in after the alarm was raised what was the bedroom like at that point?”
00:18:01 Reply "Err the, you know again I, it, it wasn’t, it wasn’t dark, it wasn’t really, really dark but it you know my overall impression was the room was fairly dark. The, the children as I said before were still err fast asleep, which again you know we’ve discussed this you know over the months that Kate and Gerry you know, as all children wake up you know in the night and err you know with all the pandemonium and the shouting, breaking, that they were still you know, fast asleep, and err you know I wouldn’t describe that I could see anything in the room like there’d been, you know, clothes thrown around the room or anything and disturbed and you know I, I noticed that the bed was empty that Madeleine was sleeping in. Other people have described that the bed was very neat and tidy but that isn’t what, you know, I could confirm.”
1485 "What was the bed like that you can confirm?”
Reply "I, I, you know, I, my note, visual note was she’s not there, the twins are there, you know I just ran out and you know was wanting to, you know, run around like a headless chicken and try and do something you know to be helpful.”
00:19:23 1485 "How long do you think you were in that bedroom for?”
Reply "Err as I say when I was there I wasn’t actually, hadn’t walked in to the whole part of the bedroom, if anything I’d just stepped in to the room just from the, err you know the doorway perhaps just beyond the doorway, but I hadn’t you know gone right in to say like where the twins were or in between where the beds were. Err again it’s, it’s difficult, it’s difficult to say because I could have well pop back more than once just, you know, you know with Gerry, you know moving, you know we were moving around so frequently, err I wasn’t certainly there for any length of time, whether it’d be a minute, you know that would be something, or that I’d ever stayed at the maximum because there was just so much else.”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "You know going on with people running around etcetera.”
1485 "Throughout the holiday from the twenty eighth till the fifth, or till the third…”
Reply "Mm.”
1485 "How many times do you think you actually went into the MCCANN’S apartment?”
00:20:33 Reply "Err probably more than other people as I said there was the, there was one, there was the incident with the cot where were trying to, you know, had some difficulty with one of the cots that had been provided to err you know so and they’d got the spare cot that you know so I had to go down and pick that up and then I, I popped in there you know some other times as well, I say I probably, in total during the week, I’d have said five, half a dozen times I’d been to that apartment.”


According your memory. And you described how she looked and you described how she was behaving. Were you shocked about what she’d said?”
Reply "I mean, the, you know the first, you know there’s a moment of disbelief you know or you know you look for every plausible, you know, explanation in your mind which just goes through very, you know filters through very quickly you know could this have happened, or you know or what, you know but as I say when she said it and the look on her face it was, you know if a picture told a thousand words then you know. Again, you know, Kate is just so reliable you know she wouldn’t come running down and saying, well certainly she’s gone and then you know thinking she’s wandered off and then as it transpired you know, then you know, what she was telling us after in terms about the gate, but the look on her face and her saying she’s gone, it to me implied what had happened without actually hearing anything else, just by the look on her face.”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "But you know, again, whether that’s also a little bit of retrospectively, you know, (inaudible) on the situation, but I can just remember the look on her face, she’s gone.”
00:39:00 1485 "Did you enter the MCCANN apartment? Well you did. Did you enter the children’s room? Which you did. You described what you saw, you’ve said that you saw the twins. Did you notice anything strange about it?”
Reply "Err, as I say, you know about before, the amount of screaming that was going on in the apartment and around and everything that was kicking off and the fact that the two of them could just sleep through it, you know, again, perhaps just take on board saying that you know sometimes you know, they’ve had their difficulties with Kate and Gerry with them sleeping through and you know it was just very bizarre that they continued to sleep through. Err you know I did notice obviously that, the change in the, you know the blind and the err window, but you know I can’t accurately say it like other people did, you know what, how exactly did they find it, I couldn’t say.”
1485 "What do you mean the change in the blinds in the window?”
Reply "Well you know it was pointed out, the window was open, the blind’s not, you know, err down it’s open, you know so those things you know I was made aware of but err as I say I couldn’t tell you exactly how far down the blind was or how much the window was open.”
00:40:22 1485 "Did Kate say anything about the window and the shutter?”
Reply "Err I’m sure she did but what she exactly said and you know because we were, you know, the first thing you’re trying to do is work out how it could be opened you know, what was, you know, err and you know the discussion whether it be open from the inside or the outside but what she said I can’t remember. But also on the back of subsequent discussions that we had about what may have happened, it’s difficult to say without, or you know things merge into one.”
1485 "What did you do next? Well you took part in assisting in the apartment then you did some searches with Russell and…”
Reply "Matt.”
1485 "Matthew was saying, and you was with, who were you with? Russell and Matt obviously. Okay, on realising that Madeleine was not found within the first ten minutes, how did Kate react?”
Reply "Err she was distraught and you know (sighs).”
1485 "And the same for Gerry?”
Reply "Yeah, I mean Kate, you know Kate generally, you know more emotional than err Gerry was and then all of a sudden Gerry would breakdown and you know just, you know saying she’s gone, you know she’s gone, err Kate was more like that on a continual basis throughout the evening. Err Gerry would still try and function in between the moments of you know breaking down and err you know and try to, you know, I had the discussion on with phone and you know what, what we gonna do and err and then, you know, they’d breakdown again, so there was…”
00:42:25 1485 "Considering that Madeleine had disappeared, what did you think of their behaviour?”
Reply "(Sighs) I mean it, you know I, whatever, it, it seemed to be appropriate, I’ve never been in a position to see what people are normally like after, it seemed completely appropriate for what had happened and there wasn’t one moment you know that I thought that’s, you know oh crikey they’ve taken that well or you know, you’d expect them to be more upset than that or you know, (inaudible) expected it if you haven’t lived through that circumstances.”
1485 "I just want you to think about this one here now, what did you do between, I know you said that you did subsequent searches, but up until ten o’ clock the next morning, just tell me what you, just go through your movements.”
Reply "What, sorry, in the…”
1485 "Yeah so you’ve started to take part in the searches and you’ve taken part with Matt and Russell.”
Reply "Mm.”
1485 "You’ve done a bit of a loop of the…”
Reply "Yeah.”
1485 "Down to the Supermarket. Just tell me…”
Reply "I mean the…”
1485 "You went back, subsequently back to your apartment and then bedtime and then…”
Reply "Yeah I mean my, my, you know a lot of the movements you know the, initially with the sweep that I did straight away round the complex I was on, you know I did that on my own err you know, going up to the room, that bit I did on my own and where I swept down to the beach and walked along you know and shouted for Madeleine and seeing other people as I went along you know that was purely, I was running and I was doing that on my own. Then when I went back to the apartment, then swept up you know at some stage looking up at the, the area above the apartment to the side, looking in the rough err some rough land which was on the way to the err Millennium err where we ate, err and there was err bumped into Dan, he was looking, you know the tennis pro, looking there you know err I say that was another part of the search. In the meantime there was also, you know, discussion with Mark Warner people and the Police immediately outside the, err, the apartment err you know so there was, I can’t think of anything else to say.”
00:45:00 1485 "So when did you eventually go back to your apartment?”
Reply "Err…”
1485 "To sleep and…”
Reply "To go to sleep? We went back to the apartment about four, four thirty err we slept err you know we’d got err Sean and Amelie err over to the apartment, you know we’d got the bedding done for Kate and Gerry and then we went sleep, we woke up about six, six thirty err and then as I say, err, you know Kate and Gerry were err you know were already awake, not that they’d, you know, they’d slept sorry you know they were still awake and err you know they, they’d been out searching already looking to see what’s happening. Again I remember Kate very distraught you know, there was nobody outside the err apartments and you know and it just felt like time was just ticking by and you know nothing, you know appeared to be happening.”
1485 "And then you spoke to Yvonne MARTIN around about nine o’ clock you said.”
Reply "Mm.”
1485 "What did you do up until nine o’ clock?”
Reply "Err I remember we were hang, you know I was outside with, you know, with Kate quite a bit err just basically looking, seeing whether anything was happening, err outside, err I say there was, there was the local report and the news journalist who came up as well at some stage, then err then there was a correspondence between you know, with Robert MURAT and the err Police who err arrived and you know trying to find out what was going on. And then, you know, obviously we were gonna be going to the err Portimão Police Station and then you know we were waiting obviously for that to happen and err that’s about it really.”

MATTHEW OLDFIELD

Well Kate went and did the next check and think because we’d, I didn’t, we didn’t all go at that point, just Kate went and, erm, and then came running back saying, she’s gone, Gerry Madeleine’s gone, and she was sort of borderline hysterical, as you’d expect, and then there was just a blur as everybody then just ran off from the table. Erm, then everybody I think left the table, I mean, I just remember being behind Dave as he was, and Gerry, as they were running, erm, Russell I think (inaudible) a bit behind and so we all ran. If you ask whether we went, you know, into the apartment and I’m almost a hundred percent sure we didn’t go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful, so Gerry and Kate and maybe Dave, I’m not sure, but went sort of to the bottom of the steps and they sort of went in, erm, and as soon as they sort of said, you know, she’s gone and everything, all hell broke loose, we went round to check firstly on G***e to make sure she was okay and we dropped Rachael up there, telling her that she wasn’t to move, Jane came out of the apartment, did she come out of the apartment at that point or was it later in the evening, I can’t remember, but I remember seeing them, you know, most of the time and then for the rest of the evening they were stood, you know, at the doorways to the apartments, erm, we went back round, erm, and everybody was just running around like sort of headless chickens, so I remember saying, you know, we need a plan, I mean, I don’t know why I said that but I think I’d just read too many novels, because everybody just seemed to just sort of run, there was sort of no organisation, you know, and it was obviously important that we, you know, we did something constructive rather than just running around looking in the hedgerows if, you know, what we, because we all went through this, you know, is she really gone, surely she must have just sort of wandered off and we’re just going to find her and she’s going to be there, but, you know, she’s like a four year old child and, you know, she, I mean, all the doors were shut, she wasn’t really going to run off and then Jane said, the shutters up, and, you know, we sort of scarpered and Dave and Russell were just running off sort of shouting, so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it’s difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten”.
00.51.10 4078 “Quite quick then?”
Reply “Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you’ve got to phone the Police, you know, a child’s been taken, and they went, oh no, she’s probably just sort of woken up and he thought she’s probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you’re right, maybe you’re right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he’d ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don’t know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe. Erm, then we went back up to, or I went, because I was on my own, I went back up to the, erm, to the apartment and it was just obvious that she wasn’t in the apartment, but we were still sort of just milling about on the street, everybody was just running around just sort of trying to, you know, sort of search nearby roads. And so we, erm, I volunteered to go up to the, erm, I went up to the Millennium Restaurant because it was just one of the routes that I thought she might have taken, although I couldn’t say why I thought she would because we’d only been there once on that night before and maybe she’d been for the restaurant, so we’d only been at the initial welcoming, that was the only time that we went for that meal in the evening because the food wasn’t great there, it wasn’t quite up to the MARK WARNER resorts of, but anyway, so we did other things and that’s why we liked the Tapas, so there was no reason really why she’d have gone up there, but it was a, just a different route. So a lot of it in terms of timing is blurred, but up and onto the top road to the Millennium Restaurant, which is pretty much you come up and along this road for about sort of five or ten minutes and sort of this end of town, let them know that a little girl was missing and then gone back through the back streets, down on the beach and then back to the apartment. Erm, at some point we were back and forth to the, to the reception as well. And I think what the reception probably did was ring the MARK WARNER people and say, there’s somebody that’s saying there’s a child missing, because by that time there were lost of MARK WARNER people around, erm, and they were very good, they, you know, they obviously, you know, got there and that might have been the impetus that got them to ring the Police, if, because I understand that there is some discrepancy about when we thought we’d called the Police and when the Police were actually called and that might be that they went on the, on that route first and then went, I think it’s Stuart HILL or, well the Manager, the sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it occurred. Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know, where’s the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm, and so went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm, and at that point, Gerry had come down as well, erm, and, erm, you know, was obviously, you know, sort of intermittently sort of calm and then completely, you know, hysterically upset, it was sort of, you know, it was sort of pretty sort of upsetting, because you didn’t know what to really say, because you can’t really say, you know, it’s going to be okay, because, you know, you assume the worst and it’s going to be particularly awful, you know, it’s going, you know, some, erm, person’s got, (inaudible), some xxxxxxx’s got my, you know, got my daughter and she’s so innocent. And, I mean, at that point, we were sort of in a room next door, you know, the bedroom across, and we thought maybe it could have been G***e quite easily. Erm, but, you know, there’s, you know, seeing them normal all the time and then to go to that was just, you couldn’t act it, it just wasn’t, it was just, you don’t know how you’re going to react in that sort of situation, but, erm, you know, it was just, we’ve already mentioned the sort of frightening and you wanted to be away from it, but you wanted to try to do something to make it better, but you couldn’t”.
00.55.19 4078 “You feel helpless?”
Reply “You are and yet people on the outside of it, erm, responded in a much more practical way, of course, they would do, but with decent suggestions about doing this, doing that, you know. But, erm, we were there about sort of eleven, ten past eleven when the GNR sort of Police arrived and there was two of them in a Police car. Somebody’s asked whether the siren was on and I think the lights were flashing but I don’t remember, and I may have heard the siren in the distance, but I can’t recall. So they arrived just about five minutes after Gerry and I had been there. And one of the cleaning ladies I think came to translate, I think this is Sylvia or Sylvie, I’m not sure, but she was there helping, you know, saying, this is, you know, this is the father. And they put him in the car and drove back up to the apartment. And then, erm, after that we did more headless running around, checked on G***e, erm, you know, at times we were sort of like crossing each other, there was Dave, and running on my own, and sort of the other way, and I then went out on the coast road a bit further down, erm, I don’t know what we thought we could do, but it was just better than being close to them and being there, erm, and so we ran out on that, I think this road unfortunately is called, erm, which road is it, Cemetery Road I think it’s called, I seem to remember noticing it because it seemed like a horrible, I think it’s this bit here”.
4078 “It covers quite a lot of area”.
Reply “You’re basically out on, I think this is Cemetery Road or one of these roads and it just takes you out down the coast and there’s lots of new build sort of resorts going up”.
4078 “And all the areas that made a search, with hindsight or at the time, there was nothing that you can think of that might be relevant to?”
Reply “No, because as you went on you’d meet other groups, there was Nathan, one of the waterfront people, who managed the waterfront, who we’d met previous on a MARK WARNER holiday, so, you know, you’d sort of cross paths with people who were sort of searching and then, you know, it’d get deserted and there were dogs barking at you as you sort of wandered around, because some of the apartments were occupied and some were still being built, so there was a kind of a bit of, a sort of a lonely sort of isolated place, but, you know, it was all very sort of close, and there was nothing, you know, looking for sort of like funny parked cars or, erm, you know, anything really that seemed a bit odd”.
00.57.42 4078 “Did you see Kate during that initial?”
Reply “No, no, I mean, partly, you know, because I just didn’t know what to say to them and partly because by that time they were in with the Police. And then we went to bed about sort of two, three, something like that”.
4078 “You obviously found it very, very difficult seeing Gerry in that state?”
Reply “ Yeah, most, yeah, I mean, it was pretty upsetting sort of seeing him like he was and also, you know, because, you know, we thought, obviously we were all having the same sort of thoughts, that, you know, you know, paedophiles, Madeleine’s gone, a little girl. Erm, Rachael stayed at the apartment and, erm, and I think Jane did as well, erm, around. I think we, at one stage, on one of the return visits, I did go into the apartment, just as far perhaps as the, erm, as the kitchen, and I could see them sat on the sofa, but they were in with the Police and there was nothing we could do or say, so we came back out, and that’s the only time I went back into the apartment”.
4078 “When did you first become aware of what Jane had seen, can you remember?”
Reply “No, erm, I think it might, I don’t know whether she came on the same night, because I think it sort of, the realisation hit her that she might have seen something, so I think it probably, it may well have been the same night. I don’t know whether it was that night or the next day, but I feel fairly sure it would have triggered her memory, but I can’t say for definite”.
00.59.22 4078 “How are you doing?”
Reply “Umm, I’m okay, thank you”.
4078 “I think it has brought it has brought it home to all of us just, you know, what a mental trauma it has been, for you as a group of friends as well”.
Reply “Yeah”.
4078 “Which, you know, perhaps people don’t appreciate because they just read what they read in the Press and forget that there’s a group of people who have been so affected”.
Reply “Yeah, umm, I think it’s just because it could be, so easily have been”.
4078 “Yeah”.
Reply “I mean, initially we went through this, it could have been because of the location of the apartments, it could have been G***e, you know, we could have been the ones having to generate this, you know, and deal with it as best we could and make it useful and do something useful about it rather than just sort of collapsing. I mean, I don’t know how they’ve done it. Erm, but then, you know, it’s, and you thought, oh well, you know, maybe because Madeleine’s sort of quite, you know, (inaudible) and, you know, petite and, you know, maybe it wasn’t quite so likely. And then it, you know, sort of that goes away and then you’re left with not knowing what happened. Erm, and then as well, although we weren’t particularly close to them before, erm, we didn’t see them particularly socially until after this, it’s still, you know, none of us move on”.
4078 “How often have you been in contact with them since?”
Reply “Erm, I mean, you settle back down as time goes on and it does sort of ease itself a little bit, you are able to then sort of, to function and sort of carry on, sort of people a bit further away, and because we’re sort of further from them in terms of the usual contact, it’s not been, erm, quite so difficult for us to escape it to a certain extent. Erm, but we’d speak to them, I mean, initially it was every few days and then sort of every week and now it’s about every sort of two to there weeks”.



"And we covered the weather, you can’t remember it being a particularly windy night.”
Reply "No I don’t remember much about the weather on that night err I’m just thinking more about when we were actually running along the beach and along the err and along the front doing the, the search and I don’t recall it being err particularly windy but as I think we said but last time it was windy enough for us to sail in the afternoon but they didn’t necessarily translate it to have been windy in the evening.”


We’ve already gone through who left the table and at what stages on the previous, or on our initial interview. And it, and also you’ve already told me that when Kate got back to the table she was literally bordering on being hysterical.”
Reply "Yeah.”
4078 "Once she’d discovered that Madeleine was missing.”
Reply "I mean that bit, you, you heard her calling before she got back to the table I mean you know she was, you know she must have been half way down the, the route between her room and, err between their room and the restaurant so you heard her before you saw her err and you could just hear the panic in her voice but then it was just everybody run, rushing back to the apartment so you know I don’t think she got as far as the table before we were all up and, and going.”
4078 "And then the question of were you shocked about what she said, you were shocked at the facts that she was reporting.”
Reply "Yeah.”
4078 "But you were, they were very appropriate in the way that she was saying…”
Reply "Yeah.”
4078 "If you imagined yourself in her shoes.”
Reply "Yeah, yeah.”
00:10:21 4078 "I mean you obviously would be distraught.”
Reply "That moment is just it can’t be, it’s just not possible, it just doesn’t really happen apart from on the news and in stories obviously it does happen but you know the, it was just completely non-real for the, for, for the moment and its only as things went on that it became err became reality because you were just hoping and expecting that it was just going to be some dreadful mistake and that she was wrong, and it just takes a while for that to really hit, it is actually happening.”
4078 "You didn’t really go into the MCCANN’S apartment after that, you saw Gerry and Kate on the sofa and they were engaged with the Police at that stage.”
Reply "Yeah they were obviously later in the…”
4078 "And you didn’t see the twins so therefore you didn’t notice anything unusual about them because you hadn’t seen them anyway.”
Reply "No.”
00:11:11 4078 "You’ve already given an account of how you got involved in the searches and the fact that you went to speak to people at reception, and you noticed Nathan, somebody from Mark Warner.”
Reply "Yeah, water front manager err who we’d met before on a previous Mark Warner holiday. I think he recognised us or maybe he recognised Rachael and then the association to me err but err yeah we knew, we’d met him before.”
4078 "And you didn’t really see Kate so you couldn’t comment on her reaction after the first ten minutes when…”
Reply "No, I mean who was, it was just indirectly through you know Fiona and people sort of (inaudible) and seeing you know, how upset and everything she was, but i didn’t directly see her.”
4078 "And with Gerry, you said he was absolutely distraught.”
Reply "Yeah.”
4078 "And you felt their behaviour was completely appropriate under the circumstances.”
Reply "Yeah, I mean he was just saying his thoughts to me and we all thought about our own children and how it would be and if a child goes missing and then taken out the room you assume the worst and you assume the worst thing that could possibly happen to them and just the, the difficult thing for all of us you know, the thing that always concerns about leaving them in their rooms till we’d thought about it and talked about in between couples and between Rachael and I was, I mean, the worst thing you go well, you know, why you worrying so much, they’re locked in, they’re safe, the worst thing that can happen is they wake up and not really know where you are for five, ten minutes, and first that’s pretty unlikely, G***e sleeps all the way through nearly, you know, nine times out of a hundred, and at worst she’s gonna be upset for ten minutes and then you’re gonna be, you’re gonna be there err just the thought of something like this is just, err completely just out of our experience you know, it was just awful.”
00:13:00 4078 "Did you notice Kate and Gerry talking to anybody unknown during the evening meal?”
Reply "No, err no, not that weren’t known to all of us as part of the, err either the rest of the holiday group or err staff.”
4078 "And did you see them…”
Reply "Nobody stuck in…”

DIANE WEBSTER

 Russell came back to table and err they’d actually cooked him a fresh steak and he was just starting to tuck into it when err Kate had obviously gone back to check on the children, came running in you know, as far as I can recollect she said you know she’s gone, Gerry, Madeleine’s gone, screaming you know.”

PC: "How did she look?”

DW: "Well I don’t know, frightened or absolutely, well, it’s very difficult to take in when something like that, you know, you’re just sitting at a table having what was a nice meal and err everybody just, you know, stopped what they were doing and just got up and Fiona said to me you know, I said what do you want me to do and she said you stay there in case err you know if Madeleine, because at that time we didn’t know what had happened because I think Gerry had sort of said to Kate oh she can’t be, you know. Err so I, I stayed at the table in case Madeleine had wandered off and she might come looking round the restaurant. Err this is when it gets all a bit confusing because I’ve no idea how long I, I stayed there. I don’t, I don’t think it was that long and I know that at one point, again, this wasn’t in my original statement, Dave did come back to the table and say can, can you just go back to the apartment, but all this is very, very, very vague and I know when I left the table I went, I did go into err Kate and Gerry’s err apartment, which was just absolute err just terrible.”

PC: "What did you see when you got there?”

DW: "What did I see? Well Kate and Gerry, Gerry was absolutely, absolutely distraught, absolute, you know, I mean I’ve never heard a man make the noises he made, err and Kate, Kate was just err you can’t, you just can’t put into words how they were I mean they were just, I remember I went through into the room where err where Madeleine was sleeping and err and she said you know, somebody, you know, she’s been taken because she said that the shutters and that had been open, the window open. Err the twins were still asleep in the cot and I, with all the noise going on I don’t know how they slept through it which makes me think there was, they must have been err drugged with something.”

PC: "What could you see of Madeleine’s bed?”

DW: "Well the, it was neatly turn, what I remember the cover was neatly turned back. I mean her bed was right in the err corner, you went in the door and it was, you’d have to look round the door to err see it, and err it was just neatly turned back and she just wasn’t there.”

PC: "Do you remember who else was around when you back to the apartment?”

DW: "I think, well Fiona was there I think and err Rachael, I remember seeing Rachael and Gerry, I just remember Gerry sitting in the chair just absolutely, well roaring is the only word I can describe it as, just absolutely beside himself. The men, the other men I think were, had gone out looking, running around shouting Madeleine, and Fiona, Fiona wanted me to go back and err keep, I mean obviously everybody’s concerned for their own children as well and I think also there’d been things left at the table, like err cameras and Rachael’s jacket and things so I, I err, I think I went back to the table then to pick up err what had been left behind, I’m not sure, I think the monitor was there as well and one of the staff at the restaurant asked me what had happened and I just said one of the children has gone missing.”

GERRY

He was wearing tennis shoes, blue jeans and a light brown polar top. He does not remember what Kate was wearing that night.


He remembers that after it was known that Madeleine had disappeared he looked for her all over the apartment. He particularly remembers having looked under all the beds, inside the wardrobes in all the rooms at the same time that Kate told him she had looked everywhere already.

He remembers that at one time the lady who lived in the apartment above theirs, went onto her balcony and asked what was going on. He does not remember specifically who replied to this lady, but he remembers that somebody spoke to her, and he admits it could have been himself.

When questioned, he states that from the first moment, after the first fruitless searches, he thought that Madeleine had been abducted and it was this information that he gave to everyone to whom he spoke. He reached such a conclusion because he did not think it possible that she had gone out on her own or opened the bedroom shutters and window.

When questioned, he says that on that night he made several phone calls, namely to two sisters, a couple of Kate’s uncles, his brother, or certainly sent him a message, father PAUL SEDDON who baptized Madeleine and married the deponent. When questioned, he says he did not get in touch with any media and does not know if anyone did. In the morning his family did contact the press. The deponent spoke of contacting the press, however he never did so.

When questioned he says that it was not him who requested a priest, but rather Kate, to seek spiritual help.

Regarding the disclosure of Madeleine’s photograph, he says that he gave the authorities a photograph from a digital camera, and he thinks it was Russell who printed it at the main 24-hour resort reception. He made the delivery of this, or those, pictures on A4 paper to this Police, but he is absolutely certain that he never delivered any of these photographs to the GNR.



When questioned if the twins woke up during the searches in the apartment, he replied negatively. When they were taken to another apartment he does not know if they woke, as he did not take them. When asked, he says that this was not normal, but he can find no reason for it happening. Yet, at that moment he thought that the twins might have been drugged by the possible abductor, even if he only mentioned this to the Police several days later. When questioned, he says he never gave his children anything to help them sleep, nor did Kate. When asked why he did not ask the twins what happened to their sister, he says that when the events took place they still did not speak fluently, which they now do, and that such is part of normal development. At that point and at this point he did not ask them because he thought that they would not have the correct perception of what had happened, in addition to thinking that they would have been sleeping.

When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they remained inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way. While the guests and resort workers were searching, he went to the main reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After returning from the reception he went back into the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom.

When asked if he has life insurance, he says that he does, and so does Kate. The children do not have any life insurance, nor are their parents, Gerry and Kate, the beneficiaries of any insurance regarding the children.

When asked about the contents of the wardrobe in his room that can be seen in the photographs, he says that on top there is a suitcase and below a pile of dirty clothes that he cannot make out. This wardrobe was opened to look for Madeleine.

When asked if in fact they went to the apartment every half hour, he says it is true, and that this was never forged to justify absences during dinner.

When asked what the expression “we let her down” means, he says that it has to do with the fact that they were not present when Madeleine was abducted. It was Kate who first used this expression.

During this interview several films of a forensic nature showing sniffer dogs were shown to him, where they can be seen signalling human cadaver odour and also human traces of blood, and only of a human nature, as well as the comments made by the expert in charge of the procedure.

After viewing the films and after the signalling of cadaver odour in their room next to the wardrobe and behind the sofa against the window in the living room, he says that he has no comments, neither has he any explanation for this fact.

The dog that detects human blood signalled human blood behind the sofa mentioned above, as well, he says that he cannot explain this fact.

Regarding the signalling of cadaver odour in the vehicle that was rented in late May, license plate 49-DA-27, he says he cannot explain more than what he already has.

Regarding the signalling of human blood in the boot of the same vehicle, he says that he has no explanation for this fact.

When confronted with the fact that Madeleine’s DNA was collected from behind the sofa and in the boot of the vehicle, and analyzed by a British laboratory, situations that had already been described before, he says that he cannot explain.

When asked if on any occasion Madeleine was injured, he says that he has no comments.